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[Strategy / Risk] Lordaeron: the Aftermath

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Level 6
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I've been looking through this thread for awhile and noticed it has no AI. Normally I would play with real people, but I have a crappy internet connection, so I was wondering could a 3 player game be entertaining as much as a 12 player game?
 
Level 7
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Well, add the Broken Draenai and Akama, the player will need be totaly changed for don't be Overpowerful,

Don't Worry Broken Draenai will be balanced :)

Please make eye's of kilrogg magic immune its impossible for purple to fight teal right now since they get insta killed by carrion.

Good idea,changed for next version.

First of all, congratulations for this map, it is very good and it made me register here, something that I dont usually do.

Secound, and the reason for my post is my concern about the legion and forsaken being too strong in case forsaken decides he doesn't want to backstab legion. I know one of the best features of this map is the freedom of choice that players has, and how every game turns different, unlike, Azeroth wars: LR for exemple. However, I'd like to sugest something triggering the betrayal at the mid game, if it has not happened until there, because legion summoning doesnt happens every game, and if it does it is very laaate game.

Once again, you did an amazing job at this map, editors!

Thanks! But I am actualt the only editor of this map, Goblinking has helped in the past but everything you see is about 95% me :)

Theres currently a bug that lets legion move powerful Demonic units like Doom Guards and Pit Lords through the Nazararim gateways. Next version Kil'Jaeden will be required before Legion can summon these powerful demonic units into azeroth.

As you mentioned I like to give players freedom so am against any kind of time triggered forced alliance change.

I've been looking through this thread for awhile and noticed it has no AI. Normally I would play with real people, but I have a crappy internet connection, so I was wondering could a 3 player game be entertaining as much as a 12 player game?

Hi, Sorry but this game should really be played with a full house! With less players can really effect balance, especially if you have players not having any early game enemies. They could become really powerful just from take CPs.

People have talked about AI but can you imagine how complex an AI would have to be to play this game with any sort of skill? You'd have to trigger the computer to use its heroes and transport ships and respond to strategic changes within the map. Thats alot of coding!

Again thanks for all the feedback and suggestions! Any small and easy changes will make it inyo next version.

Marshmalo
 
Level 5
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Hi, Sorry but this game should really be played with a full house! With less players can really effect balance, especially if you have players not having any early game enemies. They could become really powerful just from take CPs.

Marshmalo

It's really impossible to play with full house since every single game I've played there were always leavers.
 
Level 13
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646
I played with this hacker before, he destroyed Lick King and Deathwing in the place where they are before you get them.
 
Level 13
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Messages
646
Wow, you told them that i am the hacker here because i can play, not like you, i always destroy you, and why someone who knows how to play to hack ? You are really brainless.
No way to not to told them, so you can play without me saying i am a hacker, anyway you will be destroyed by anyone else.
 
Level 2
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Not hacking

Wow, you told them that i am the hacker here because i can play, not like you, i always destroy you, and why someone who knows how to play to hack ? You are really brainless.
No way to not to told them, so you can play without me saying i am a hacker, anyway you will be destroyed by anyone else.


Reaching that area where DW is, is not a hack, as I've replicated it myself after learning that it could be done. Needless to say it's quite hilarious, but quite cheap too. Even so, he's not a hacker, so quit bitching, yousef.
 
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Reaching that area where DW is, is not a hack, as I've replicated it myself after learning that it could be done. Needless to say it's quite hilarious, but quite cheap too. Even so, he's not a hacker, so quit bitching, yousef.

Well it might not be "hacking" but it is quite clearly an exploit. The host should kick whoever does this from the game.

Killing units inside the storage area is seriously going to mess with the events.


I suppose the fault is partly mine as well for allowing people to exploit the map like this, but really, why anyone would want to troll the game like this is beyond my comprehension?

I am aware there are ways to enter the Unit storage area but in next version (V1.15) these should have been eradicated.

I have also made it so any unit that enters this area that belongs to a player (not Neutral Hostile or Neutral Passive) is killed. So hopefully in V1.15 the game can no longer be trolled like this.
 
Level 13
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Yay, now even without hacking I am right, thank you marshmalo for these news about the area i hate those who enter the area and destroy things there.
 
Level 5
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Wow, you told them that i am the hacker here because i can play, not like you, i always destroy you, and why someone who knows how to play to hack ? You are really brainless.
No way to not to told them, so you can play without me saying i am a hacker, anyway you will be destroyed by anyone else.


You don't even make sense. I doubt if you even understand yourself.
 
Level 5
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Messages
113
Reaching that area where DW is, is not a hack, as I've replicated it myself after learning that it could be done. Needless to say it's quite hilarious, but quite cheap too. Even so, he's not a hacker, so quit bitching, yousef.

Bitching is what he does every time he gets pwned. I totally owned him and his friend then he got so annoyed that he kicks me every time I join his game and tries to spread lies about me.
 
Level 13
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Messages
646
Bitching is what he does every time he gets pwned. I totally owned him and his friend then he got so annoyed that he kicks me every time I join his game and tries to spread lies about me.
Oh, i think you should read the rules about bad words and about double posts ,and stop lying i know what i am saying, and about the kick its your ping, buy a good internet connection then speak.
 
Level 2
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Hey there, I registered only to post in this thread. First of all, I wanted to thank you for the hard work you've had to make this map as it is, great. I actually feel it's the best cps-based strategy map out there on Bnet, it is at least the one I enjoy playing most.

As of more constructive feedback, I'd like to underline that I play mostly Dalaran and Cult, so the way I see things in the game is probably influenced by that.

1°) Talking of these two factions, I feel they are great as they are, in the role of support (respectively with Wildhammers and Scourge). I don't think they need beefing/nerfing at all. Of course they can't win the game alone, as it is the case of most support factions, and I'm happy with it. It just means that I need a good teammate as Wildhammers/Scourge, which is not always the case, but I'm OK with that on Bnet. Their gameplay is pretty dynamic considering New Dal' and Naxx'. I'm eager to see what Kalecgos will bring to Dalaran, though.

2°) I think that the map needs balancing in the way the factions and their alliances evolve throuhout the game.
- The Broken alliance is already "Broken" so I feel undeserved the fact that so much of it may defect (BE, Scarlet considering many enjoy Alex' the Ashbringer...). As Dalaran, I often end games with only the Wildhammers and, should the one playing them know not what to do with his dwarves or just leave, my game's basicly broken as I have no one to turn to lorewise (except Horde, perhaps, which always refuses ^^).
- I've also had a number of games when BE stayed allied, restored the Sunwell and, once the game was won for the Alliance, betrayed and became Illidari. Once the Sunwell is restored, there is no justification for the BE turning to Illidan lorewise... So perhaps you will need adjusting the way the Sunwell can be restored (it's the Spark of M'uru in WoW lore so it may need Velen and the Naaru in the oncoming Outland; Anveena's essence serves only to undermine Kil'Jaeden's efforts to come through so it may need the oncoming Kalecgos). The possibility to accept Fel pact and to go Illidari should be taken away from BE once the Sunwell is restored, as it is once and for all.
- On the other hand, Horde can really get overpowered if BE and Forsaken join in. I saw it once and the game's was basicly ruined in the first 15 minutes. I would suggest not allowing the BE to join Horde as long as the Forsaken haven't, as it is Sylvanas that gave BE the possibility to get in. I also saw Illidari getting into the Horde. Really, more events should be exclusive with one another. If BE go Illidari, then they can't go Horde. If they go Horde, they loose Kael'thas and gain Lor'themar, and so on.
- I have nothing against Horde siding with Forsaken and BE as it is canon lore, but perhaps it would need number tweaks (-10% HP and DMG to units of the WoW Horde ofr example).

3°) Forget the Sunwell absorption thing really. It makes no sense at all lorewise. Only beings with an innate affinity to arcane magic can wield such powers, namely demons/elves. The possibility given to any non Alliance player to gain free levels from it is silly, with Cho'gall or Malakk the demi-god it is boring...

If I wasn't clear in a point I made, I guess it's because I'm over-enthusiastic when lore is involved. Please ask and I would try and be more precise.

To sum up, your map is great. I play it, I love it, keep up the good work on it!
 
Level 7
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So how's the Ironforge looks in the new version?Going well!?


Its going well here's a preview of Ironforge, New Alliance city for the Dwarves:

Ironforge%20Screen.jpg



Wow thanks for the indepth feedback and glad to hear someone actually enjoys playing Cult, I get alot of complaints about that faction. Dalaran are one of my favourite factions to play, I love the mass Teleportation and all the summons!

Hope you'l be pleased with the all new stuff for these factions in next patch, it's about time Cult got some love.

I'd like to know how you get on with Kalecgos and the Wyrmrest Accord, I hope I haven't made them too overpowered as he has access to some powerful flying units.

2) But to respond to your points about balance, I can agree to an extent, if both Forsaken and Blood elf join horde you get a powerhouse of these 4 factions.

In light of your comments I will make it so Forsaken can not go Horde until 15 minutes into game (Blood Elf already have this limit).

The Ashbringer Item can now be forged with Tirion Fordwing as the Silverhand so there's no need for players to go Scarlet for it, maybe more players will stay in the alliance no but most games I have played people seem to go get Argent Dawn and re-join the alliance to get Velen.

Regarding the Blood Elves, they now have so many different paths and choices it starts to get very complicated when trying to explain them. Some events are compatable with one another, others are not. Here's a list of possible BE paths as per the upcoming version (V1.15).

-Blood Elf stays in Alliance: Can not Absorb Sunwell, Can go any of the below paths at any time.

-Blood Elf Goes Illidari: Can Absorb Sunwel, Can go Fel elf, can not go Wretched, Can not join Horde.

-Blood Elf Goes Wretched: Can go Illidari, Can go Fel Elf, Can absorb Sunwell, can join horde, can not join alliance.

-Blood Elf goes Horde: Can not go Illidari, Can not got Fel Elf, can not absorb Sunwel, Can go Wretched
.

-Blood Elf goes Fel Elf: Can go Illidari, Can summon Legion, can absorb Sunwel, Can not join Horde, can not join alliance, can not go Wretched.


Illidari and Fel elf path are compatible as lorewise Illidan did at one point ally Legion and the magic the Illidan gives Kael's elves to feed on is demonic in nature. Illidari and Fel elves joining Horde was a bug, they can't anymore.

The option to go Fel Pact and Illidari remains after the Sunwel is Restored because if BE loose the Sunwell the Wretched Plague starts up again, so they must still have these options as last resorts.

3) About the Sunwell, I disagree completely. The absorbtion event adds an incentive for players to invade Quel'Thalas and is something every faction can pull off. Since last patch where Anveena's Essence is required I find alot less people seem to manage to absorb it now.

I think this has struck the right balance. In fact most games I play I don;t see any of the big three demi-god heroes: Kil'Jaeden, Lich King or Deathwing. (Malak is not at all as powerful as any of these 3).

It might not be 100% lore correct but it's not too much of a stretch as to make it implausible and I believe it works.

Anyway I appreciate your feedback but remember a lot may change next version so lets see :)
 
Level 7
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Hmmm...nice Ironforge. So with addition of it yellow'll be able to go Dark Iron, right?

Also some feedback:

- If you research the spell mastery, shield generators stop dealing damage to enemies.

- The Dalaran Dungeon event will not give the 2 skill points to Rhonin from time to time. I think it has something to do with how long he's been sitting inside for that one to fail.

- If you go Illidari, your name changes from whatever your name is to Illidari (the chat one). Also Lady Vashj doesn't get the experience from Valeera Sanguinar. I've also seen Illidan spawn twice, but it happened only once. (the other Illidan was hostile) No idea how to reproduce it.

- Teal's abominations, acolytes, nerubians and ghouls don't benefit from the HP upgrades. Shades do.

- Not sure if that's a bug but Teal's dreadlords have no resistant skin. They will also join Sylvanas if they're inside Undercity or Lordaeron Palace.

- Not sure if that's a bug either, but Teal can doomdrop people with demons from the Twisting Nether by purchasing a town portal scroll, teleporting somewhere with a dreadlord and either capturing a CP or constructing some building that isn't a necropolis and teleporting the entire army of demons into the middle of one's base. (I tend to use that one pretty often)

- You no longer seem to get Mephistroph after Balnazzar's death.

- Fel Kael cannot summon Legion no matter what. I tried doing it next to the Sunwell and with the book and the ability was grayed out. I was level 12 at that time. Could it have anything to do with the fact I was level 10 before accepting the pact?

- Fel Kael cannot restore Silvermoon, the event just doesn't trigger. I think the same applies to Wretched Kael.

- Is Maiev supposed to be level 1 when red goes Illidari? (as a sidenote: could she be unrevivable only if killed by red/teal ?)

- Wretched Kael cannot research the reveal ability for his dragonhawks.

- The Sanctum of the Moon doesn't restore itself if Kael uses the Verdant Sphere. It falls into red's control but doesn't repair itself.

- Fel Kael cannot restore the sanctums. Same applies to Wretched one as well I think.

- It is possible for Blue to have more than 4 Death Knights by killing LB's Paladins. Is that intended?

- It's possible for DG to have both Hakkar and Empowered Malakk. It makes no sense as Malakk consumes the spirits to empower himself (plus it's a really insane combo) and Hakkar is one, albeit a powerful one.

- Dalaran Agents don't have to research the mass teleportation to be able to use it. Having access to New Dalaran unlocks it without researching the spell.

- Khadgar's Arcane Cage has absolutely no cooldown, allowing him to permanently lock a character in it if he wishes to.

- Silverhand Priest's healing wave, Twilight Shaman's Fel Warp, Balnazzar's Rain of Chaos, Farstriders' and Silver Covenant Rangers' blinks, Halduron's Avarian Scout, Constructionist's Summon Arcane Elemental, Cho'Gall's Tendrils of the Deep and a few other spells I don't remember the names of have either no hotkey or an incorrect one (priests use F, Balnazzar's rain uses D).

- It's impossible to use Balnazzar's Rain of Chaos and Detheroc's D&D if you're carrying the book of medivh. They'll attempt to summon instead of casting their respective ultimates.

- Twilight's Blademaster hero shares the same hotkey between Fel Blade and Summon Felguards spells. (which is E)

- Anub'Arak's and Cho'Gall's Fel Aura can be leveled up at levels 0, 2, 4 and 6 instead of 1, 3, 5 and 7.

- Detheroc's Demon Summon (E) can be leveled up at levels 1, 3, 6 and 9. Is that intended?

- Dreadlords' sleep's cooldown is so short you can keep an enemy hero permanently asleep if you want to. Their Mirror Image spell has no hotkey.

That's all for now.
 
Level 2
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Dec 7, 2013
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17
As i think of it, you should nerf Cult on some point: Naxxramas being able to get into Scholomance, Azjol'Nerub, Ulduar and so on. It is not quite plausible as it is. I often creep there with Kel'Thuzad and Naxx' alone. And Naxxramas is huge, indeed.

Hmmm...nice Ironforge. So with addition of it yellow'll be able to go Dark Iron, right?

I'm not a huge fan of the Dark Iron path as the Alliance splinters already quite easily. That will make Dalaran the only faction to ever stay committed to the Alliance, and it takes a lot for Dalaran to be able to handle a game alone (I did it only once). With the oncoming Wyrmrest and Kalecgos, though, they could get what it needs to stand alone. As a side note, both Dalaran and Wyrmrest were neutral in WotLK, so that would make sense.

Can you think of a neutral faction? I mean, the event with the Blue dragonflight triggers Dalaran allying with Alliance and Horde, with no possibility whatsoever to -ally or -unally anyone. That way, it would be much as it was in WoW: Dalaran being unable to do anything against Horde and Alliance fighting one another, but being able to support both in case of attack from the Scourge, for example. I really like Dalaran as it is, a support faction that can teleport huge armies anywhere help is needed and turn the tide (which I can't always do, sadly ^^). In this case, Gilneas shouldn't be an option anymore, though (another faction may perhaps still get it). I don't think that would make Dalaran a clear winner in any scenario because I guess it will be quite challenging to get Wyrmrest in the first place (at least if Scourge knows what he's doing), and there is still the possibility to go Worgen, which a number of players do. In addition, Alliance and Horde won't be siding with one another against the Evil (Scourge, Legion and so on), that's just Dalaran coming to help one or the other, so it may not be enough against the Lich King or Kil'Jaeden, for example.

It's possible for DG to have both Hakkar and Empowered Malakk. It makes no sense as Malakk consumes the spirits to empower himself (plus it's a really insane combo) and Hakkar is one, albeit a powerful one.

On the other hand, I'm in total agreement with the last: Malakk the demi-god and Hakkar make for a tough combo. My guess is that both events should be exclusive with one another.
As a side note, talking about Troll Empire and in reference to what I mentioned previously, I think that, should the Troll player wage war on the Animal Gods or summon Hakkar, he should be kicked out of the Horde. In lore, only forest trolls were allied with the Horde and, in WoW, Horde players attempt to save the Animal Gods in Zul'Drak and fight Malakk in Gundrak. Same applies for Hakkar: Horde players fought against him in Zul'Gurub. That would make the Horde less of a powerhouse should Forsaken and/or BE join in, and the Troll player will have to make a tough decision between: (i) get more powerful in his own right, but do it alone; (ii) remain in the Horde with the possibility to backstab in case things got awry. As it is, Troll players don't loose anything for becoming more powerful.
 
Level 13
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646
Can you think of a neutral faction? I mean, the event with the Blue dragonflight triggers Dalaran allying with Alliance and Horde, with no possibility whatsoever to -ally or -unally anyone. That way, it would be much as it was in WoW: Dalaran being unable to do anything against Horde and Alliance fighting one another, but being able to support both in case of attack from the Scourge, for example. I really like Dalaran as it is, a support faction that can teleport huge armies anywhere help is needed and turn the tide (which I can't always do, sadly ^^). In this case, Gilneas shouldn't be an option anymore, though (another faction may perhaps still get it). I don't think that would make Dalaran a clear winner in any scenario because I guess it will be quite challenging to get Wyrmrest in the first place (at least if Scourge knows what he's doing), and there is still the possibility to go Worgen, which a number of players do. In addition, Alliance and Horde won't be siding with one another against the Evil (Scourge, Legion and so on), that's just Dalaran coming to help one or the other, so it may not be enough against the Lich King or Kil'Jaeden, for example.
I like this idea very much, it will be very balanced.
A faction that helps Alliance and Horde after getting Dalaran, you can make Athenas Sunreaver in Dalaran with the control of Dalaran faction after they get Dalaran too and some Blood Elven units (or Horde).
This will make my a huge fan of Dalaran.
Alot of Dalaran. :D
 
Level 23
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Apr 5, 2012
Messages
1,838
Wow, Ironforge looks amazing ! Can wait to this next version, the blood elves will be so better if this right paths to choose. And when u add outland, will add one more player too ?

Can I just ask how did you create that green fog in the Undercity? Because that looks awesome.

Well, i don't know if what he use is the same that i use sometimes, but i use this: HeroGlow
 
Level 13
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Messages
646
So, when will you release this new version with Iron Forge ?
And please add change log.
 
Level 2
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17
I can confirm that what I said for Horde is true for the Legion. When BE accept fel pact and Forsaken hasn't the guts to betray Legion - which is the case in most games really - those three (Forsaken, Legion, BE) are a powerhouse that can hardly be stopped. Quite often, fel pact occurs at the very beginning of a game, and basicly ruins it.

Indeed, fel pact shouldn't be an option for BE as long as they haven't turned to Illidan lorewise. It's after Illidan taught BE how to tap into demonic energies that Kael'thas grew hungered and betrayed Illidan to turn to Kil'Jaeden and the Legion. That way, fel pact would happen later in game and Forsaken could be more interested in backstabbing Legion as time goes, in order to reach its full potential. Fel pact would be more of a possibility for Legion to recover after having been backstabbed.
 
Level 13
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Jul 19, 2011
Messages
646
There is a bug i want to post, it maybe hack:

LTA.png
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!

You should see this by yourself.
 
Level 7
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Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,024
Sorry for the slow reply! Krotos I can't say how much I appreciate that bug report it really helps improve the map and iron out problems like that, many of which I did not realize existed!

Below you can see my reply highlighted in red regarding these bugs:

Hmmm...nice Ironforge. So with addition of it yellow'll be able to go Dark Iron, right?

Also some feedback:

- If you research the spell mastery, shield generators stop dealing damage to enemies.

Maybe thats because the damage ability was stored in a spell book, I've changed that so hopefuly it will work now.

- The Dalaran Dungeon event will not give the 2 skill points to Rhonin from time to time. I think it has something to do with how long he's been sitting inside for that one to fail.

I've just removed this event, its not nesesary and there's an item that gives x3 hero levels in dal dungeons anyway if you ca find.

- If you go Illidari, your name changes from whatever your name is to Illidari (the chat one). Also Lady Vashj doesn't get the experience from Valeera Sanguinar. I've also seen Illidan spawn twice, but it happened only once. (the other Illidan was hostile) No idea how to reproduce it.

Fixed name change, Fixed Lady Vaj not getting xp from Valeera. I don;t see how illidan could have spawned twice, there is no spawn trigger, he is moved from unit storage, only one Illidan exists in the map. Very odd.


- Teal's abominations, acolytes, nerubians and ghouls don't benefit from the HP upgrades. Shades do.

I just checked and all those units (except Acolytes) use the Death Infusion upgrade? Tested in game as well.

- Not sure if that's a bug but Teal's dreadlords have no resistant skin. They will also join Sylvanas if they're inside Undercity or Lordaeron Palace.

Just check and they do have resistant Skin, are you sure? How do you know they don't have resistant skin? The ability is hidden within a spell book so will have no icon in the UI.

Fixed Forsaken getting teals dreads.


- Not sure if that's a bug either, but Teal can doomdrop people with demons from the Twisting Nether by purchasing a town portal scroll, teleporting somewhere with a dreadlord and either capturing a CP or constructing some building that isn't a necropolis and teleporting the entire army of demons into the middle of one's base. (I tend to use that one pretty often)

Not sure what to say about this really, CP hot drop can be countered just by buidling something over any important CPs and preventing them from being captured. I would rather the TP scroll didnt work on un finished buildings but I can not change that as far as I know.

- You no longer seem to get Mephistroph after Balnazzar's death.

Fixed

- Fel Kael cannot summon Legion no matter what. I tried doing it next to the Sunwell and with the book and the ability was grayed out. I was level 12 at that time. Could it have anything to do with the fact I was level 10 before accepting the pact?

Fixed

- Fel Kael cannot restore Silvermoon, the event just doesn't trigger. I think the same applies to Wretched Kael.

Hes not supposed to if he goes Fel Elf, once outlands in game he can go there and get a new base if he has gone fel/naga. Both Wretched Kael and Lor'Themar can now restore Silvermoon.

- Is Maiev supposed to be level 1 when red goes Illidari? (as a sidenote: could she be unrevivable only if killed by red/teal ?)

No shes not, Fixed this now.

- Wretched Kael cannot research the reveal ability for his dragonhawks.

Fixed

- The Sanctum of the Moon doesn't restore itself if Kael uses the Verdant Sphere. It falls into red's control but doesn't repair itself.

Fixed

- Fel Kael cannot restore the sanctums. Same applies to Wretched one as well I think.

Fixed

- It is possible for Blue to have more than 4 Death Knights by killing LB's Paladins. Is that intended?

Intended


- Dalaran Agents don't have to research the mass teleportation to be able to use it. Having access to New Dalaran unlocks it without researching the spell.

Fixed, that upgrade shouldnt be there.

- Khadgar's Arcane Cage has absolutely no cooldown, allowing him to permanently lock a character in it if he wishes to.

Fixed

- Silverhand Priest's healing wave, Twilight Shaman's Fel Warp, Balnazzar's Rain of Chaos, Farstriders' and Silver Covenant Rangers' blinks, Halduron's Avarian Scout, Constructionist's Summon Arcane Elemental, Cho'Gall's Tendrils of the Deep and a few other spells I don't remember the names of have either no hotkey or an incorrect one (priests use F, Balnazzar's rain uses D).

I checked these and they seem to be fine

- It's impossible to use Balnazzar's Rain of Chaos and Detheroc's D&D if you're carrying the book of medivh. They'll attempt to summon instead of casting their respective ultimates.

- Twilight's Blademaster hero shares the same hotkey between Fel Blade and Summon Felguards spells. (which is E)

Fixed

- Anub'Arak's and Cho'Gall's Fel Aura can be leveled up at levels 0, 2, 4 and 6 instead of 1, 3, 5 and 7.

Fixed

- Detheroc's Demon Summon (E) can be leveled up at levels 1, 3, 6 and 9. Is that intended?

Fixed, should be 3 levels between them so something like: 1, 4, 7, 10.

- Dreadlords' sleep's cooldown is so short you can keep an enemy hero permanently asleep if you want to. Their Mirror Image spell has no hotkey.

Increased Sleep Cooldown Slightly, their Mirror image spell does have a hotkey its R as specified in the tooltip.


That's all for now.



Once again Zanrhun I have to thank you for you in depth ideas and feedback, some of which will lead to big changes next version. Expand the hidden tag below for details:

I'm not a huge fan of the Dark Iron path as the Alliance splinters already quite easily. That will make Dalaran the only faction to ever stay committed to the Alliance, and it takes a lot for Dalaran to be able to handle a game alone (I did it only once). With the oncoming Wyrmrest and Kalecgos, though, they could get what it needs to stand alone.

The main reason people go Scarlet Crusade is to get the Ashnringer, in V.1.15 the Asbringer can be got whilst in the Silver Hand so no need to go Scarlet. And as you mention, having the Dragon flights offers Dalaran some much needed powerboost late gate.

Can you think of a neutral faction? I mean, the event with the Blue dragonflight triggers Dalaran allying with Alliance and Horde, with no possibility whatsoever to -ally or -unally anyone. That way, it would be much as it was in WoW: Dalaran being unable to do anything against Horde and Alliance fighting one another, but being able to support both in case of attack from the Scourge.

Well I see where your coming from but i'm not sure that would work in practice, picture this: I am Dalaran and been defending my allies against Horde all game, to gain an advantage I go Wyrmrest Accord and build a powerful Dragonflight army only to find out I can't attack my enemies, the Horde.

I have to sit back and watch as my allies are killed by the horde and his allies, I don;t think forcing Dalaran into having an alliance with potentiality up to 6 players is the way to go.


As a side note, talking about Troll Empire and in reference to what I mentioned previously, I think that, should the Troll player wage war on the Animal Gods or summon Hakkar, he should be kicked out of the Horde. In lore, only forest trolls were allied with the Horde and, in WoW, Horde players attempt to save the Animal Gods in Zul'Drak and fight Malakk in Gundrak. Same applies for Hakkar: Horde players fought against him in Zul'Gurub. That would make the Horde less of a powerhouse should Forsaken and/or BE join in, and the Troll player will have to make a tough decision between: (i) get more powerful in his own right, but do it alone; (ii) remain in the Horde with the possibility to backstab in case things got awry. As it is, Troll players don't loose anything for becoming more powerful.


Awsome idea! Your right instead of loosing Zul Aman trolls should be kicked out the Horde in return for getting Malak for all the reasons you mentioned above. I will include that in V1.15


I can confirm that what I said for Horde is true for the Legion. When BE accept fel pact and Forsaken hasn't the guts to betray Legion - which is the case in most games really - those three (Forsaken, Legion, BE) are a powerhouse that can hardly be stopped.


I agree, Legion/Fel Elf and Forsaken allied together is OP, and this kind of Alliance did not happen in lore. Next version I will make it so Legion must choose between having Forsaken as an ally or gaining Fel Elves as an ally. We will see whether this improves balance.

OMG THAT'S EPIC!!Pretty sure the dwarves user will be very happy xD

But if blood elf join horde, he can turn wretched so what should he do to not turn wretched!?


Thanks! :) If BE goes horde he looses Kael and gains Lor'Themar (V1.15) so the only thing he can do is to restore the Sunwell to stop him turning Wretched as Kael is needed for Fel Elf and Illidari paths.


Hmmm...nice Ironforge. So with addition of it yellow'll be able to go Dark Iron, right?

Definitely! I have always wanted to add Dark Iron path for Dwarves, I don't want to talk too much about later versions yet but they will be able to summon Ragnoros who's power will rival that of the current 3 big boss heroes (Kil'Jaden, Lich King, Deathwing). But of course it will be very difficult to summon him and rare to see him ingame .

Wow, Ironforge looks amazing ! And when u add outland, will add one more player too ?


Yes! But new faction won't be available untill atleast V1.16


There is a bug i want to post, it maybe hack:

View attachment 131253
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!

You should see this by yourself.

lol Thats not a Hack, Legion must have opened one of the Gateways to Azeroth and Scourge or CotD has sneaked an invisible unit through said gateway and exploited a hole in the pathing around the Void.

I have fixed this now thanks for reporting it!


Here is the current bug fix list for next version, if you see anything not on here please let me know so I can fix for next version!

Bug Fixes
• Argent Dawn’s Winterguard Keep is no longer invisible.
• Cult of the Damned can no longer teleport to unit storage area.
• Dalaran can no longer teleport to unit storage area.
• Any player owned unit entering unit storage area in order to troll the game will now be killed.
• Siege Golems in Recharging mode can no longer attack.
• Fixed unit ownership bug with New Dalaran.
• Lady Vashj now gets Experience from Valeera Sanguine when Blood Elves go from Fel Elves to Illidari.
• When Forsaken gains Undercity she no longer accidently gets any of Legions Nazarim Elites still inside Undercity.
• Dalarans Arcane Shield generators now properly deal damage once Spell mastery is researched.
• Legion now correctly gets Mephisteroth once Balnazzar dies.
• Fixed a bug that meant Maiev sometimes spawned a thero level 1.
• Fixed bug where Naxxranas could not build Workers.
• Cult of the Damned Summon Acolytes item now correctly summons Cultists.
• New Ultimate spell for Deathoroc to stop clash with Summon Legion spell.
• Only Fel Elf Kael can now summon Legion (His summon spell has been fixed)
 
Level 7
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Messages
194
Thanks for the reply, Marsh.

Now onto the subject of hotkeys:

The issue might be that you're using an un-changed default hotkey from warcraft 3. The effect is that whenever the map comes across a non-English version of Warcraft, all the default hotkeys are switched to that version's default hotkey. (In my case Rain of Chaos goes from R to D). I >think< that you could change it by setting the hotkey to the same as default one but manually. This is how I altered default hotkeys in my map to prevent it from colliding with other game localisations.

About the doomdrop:
The issue here isn't that you can do it. That is fine. What irks me is that you can get out of the Nether before you get Kil'Jaeden by using a scroll of town portal, making it so that you don't even need to summon him. Perhaps making the summoning portals neutral as well would fix the issue? You'd have to move Pit Lords to them as well though.

And about Dreadlords: yes, I am. I've lost them to Sylvanas' Highborne Sisters and Yogg-Saron's charm quite a few times, all of them in this version.

Another semi-bug I noticed: if you go Fel Elves, you lose access to the Farstrider mastery. The Sin'dorei Mastery also doesn't really seem to do anything in case of Fel and Wretched Sorceresses.

Are Fel Elf Shadowmancers supposed to cost wood? If yes, why? I can't think of any other unit (other than siege machines) that needs it.

I had a chance to get Maiev to level 10: her ultimate is over the top. 2000 bonus hp on level 1 is outright insane when she's equipped with 2 blink moves. I know that Illidan's tough in general, but it's still too much.

Drek'thar's healing spell has no hotkey at all. Also he's VERY squishy like for a hero that can be lost forever. Perhaps buffing his health by a bit (100 at most) would help. Yes, I am aware that he gets HP from the special 300g mastery.

Drek'thar's healing spell can be leveled at levels 0, 2, 4 and 6 instead of 1, 3, 5 and 7.

Drek'thar's farsight at level 4 costs 50 mana, has no cooldown, reveals something around 33% of Lordaeron, shows invisible units and lasts 24 seconds. If you're teal and Green has managed to keep Drek alive AND get him to a high level, you're just unable to use dreadlords. If it's meant to have such a huge reveal radius, get rid of invisibility detection part on higher levels or reduce the radius and add some cooldown to it.

Tentacles/Tendrils are unaffected by spells because they're counted as wards by the game system. It also makes it much harder to kill them in a fight, because they have VERY low AI priority. Is it intended?

You can still sink the book by putting a book carrier into the boat, then grabbing the book with a unit. The book won't be dropped if that unit goes into the boat. The other method is by getting a book on Falstad, flying far away from the land and then killing him with air. (you can do the same with Deathwing).

Dalaran Agents (and all workers) don't have resistant skin, therefore making it possible for Highborne Sisters and Yogg-Saron to charm them. Same applies to Kirin Tor Archmages.

Twilight's Cult can research the ensnare upgrade in barracks, but there's no unit in his lineup that would have the ability to ensnare units.

Twilight's Cult's Warlocks' default autocast spell is bloodlust. I know it's a matter of preference, but could it be changed to Shadow Curse, seeing how it's the autocast spell you start with?

Lady Vashj has only one level of her ultimate. Her elite summons' crushing wave spell uses a default hotkey, which is M in my localisation. You might want to change their hotkeys to the QWER system. Her blink has no cooldown and no hotkey.

Power Generators in Dalaran Dungeons and Quel'Thalas no longer have an aura that prevents Blood Elves from turning Wretched, yet they still restore mana over time.

Farstriders' and Silver Covenant Rangers' blink spell has no cooldown and no hotkey. In case of Farstriders the suggested blink hotkey (Q) is shared with windwalk.

Blood Elven Sorceress' and Aethas Sunweaver's fire elemental summons are affected by curse of the wretched, which makes no sense.

If Forsaken gets access to nerubian hive or nerubian workers, she can train infinite amount of crypt lords.

When you release Yogg-Saron from his chains, the exit portal from his cavern becomes vulnerable and can be destroyed by as little as your own AoE.

Falstad's passive has a very weird level requirement. I believe it's 1, 6, 8 and 10.

Tartek the abomination's skills are extremely vague in terms of description. You don't really know what they do until you use them. (description has too little info)

That's all for now.
 
Level 7
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Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,024
Thanks again for the report into bugs, Ive had a look at them:

Thanks for the reply, Marsh.

Now onto the subject of hotkeys:

The issue might be that you're using an un-changed default hotkey from warcraft 3. The effect is that whenever the map comes across a non-English version of Warcraft, all the default hotkeys are switched to that version's default hotkey. (In my case Rain of Chaos goes from R to D). I >think< that you could change it by setting the hotkey to the same as default one but manually. This is how I altered default hotkeys in my map to prevent it from colliding with other game localisations.

I see but the problem is: even if I set it manually the editor dosnt register it as being costomised by me (It dosnt highlight in pink) so not sure if this issue has been resolved.


About the doomdrop:
The issue here isn't that you can do it. That is fine. What irks me is that you can get out of the Nether before you get Kil'Jaeden by using a scroll of town portal, making it so that you don't even need to summon him. Perhaps making the summoning portals neutral as well would fix the issue? You'd have to move Pit Lords to them as well though.

Theres no way I can stop people teleporting units out the Nether, even if I removed the shop there they could just build another one.

Units can leave the Nether by opening the waygates anyway, if I made the waygates neutral then it would mean they'd be no way for enemies to destroy them and thus stop a legion attack.

Oh and Heavy demonic units like Nether Dragons/Infernal Machines and Doomgaurds can not be summoned without Kiljaeden in next version. So Legion will have to make do with the lesser demons until KJ is summoned.


And about Dreadlords: yes, I am. I've lost them to Sylvanas' Highborne Sisters and Yogg-Saron's charm quite a few times, all of them in this version.
Dalaran Agents (and all workers) don't have resistant skin, therefore making it possible for Highborne Sisters and Yogg-Saron to charm them. Same applies to Kirin Tor Archmages.


Well in that case I don't understand because I just tested this game and it would not let me charm a Dreadlord using a forsaken Sisters charm ability. I got the "Unit has resistant skin message".

I will give resistant skin to Dal Agents and workers though!


Another semi-bug I noticed: if you go Fel Elves, you lose access to the Farstrider mastery. The Sin'dorei Mastery also doesn't really seem to do anything in case of Fel and Wretched Sorceresses.

Well Fel elves arent supposed to ahve Farstriders and Sin'Dorei mastery dosnt seem very fitting. Maybe I need to add some kind of mastery for Fel Elves but I won;t look at that until after next ver, BE already ahve alot of content right now.

Are Fel Elf Shadowmancers supposed to cost wood? If yes, why? I can't think of any other unit (other than siege machines) that needs it.

Hmm i just checked and they dont cost any wood but maybe I must ahve fixed that since releasing V1.14.

I had a chance to get Maiev to level 10: her ultimate is over the top. 2000 bonus hp on level 1 is outright insane when she's equipped with 2 blink moves. I know that Illidan's tough in general, but it's still too much.


Your right, shes lost 300 hp in vengeance form. But tbh most people loose Maive very quick as they fail to find and kill Illidan intime.


Drek'thar's healing spell has no hotkey at all. Also he's VERY squishy like for a hero that can be lost forever. Perhaps buffing his health by a bit (100 at most) would help. Yes, I am aware that he gets HP from the special 300g mastery.

Fixed. And Drek'Thar no longer perma dies next ver, as I completly aggree hes very hard to keep alive.

Drek'thar's healing spell can be leveled at levels 0, 2, 4 and 6 instead of 1, 3, 5 and 7.

Fixed, Spells that are taken from units and made into hero spells automaticaly have 0 as the required level. This appears to be why so many have this issue.

Drek'thar's farsight at level 4 costs 50 mana, has no cooldown, reveals something around 33% of Lordaeron, shows invisible units and lasts 24 seconds. If you're teal and Green has managed to keep Drek alive AND get him to a high level, you're just unable to use dreadlords. If it's meant to have such a huge reveal radius, get rid of invisibility detection part on higher levels or reduce the radius and add some cooldown to it.

hmmm your right the level 4 radius is stupidly large, ive nerfed this spell alittle.

Tentacles/Tendrils are unaffected by spells because they're counted as wards by the game system. It also makes it much harder to kill them in a fight, because they have VERY low AI priority. Is it intended?

I think the game automaticaly assigns ward units a low priority? I have edited afew AOE spells to include wards now so hopefully this shud help.

You can still sink the book by putting a book carrier into the boat, then grabbing the book with a unit. The book won't be dropped if that unit goes into the boat. The other method is by getting a book on Falstad, flying far away from the land and then killing him with air. (you can do the same with Deathwing).

Next version uses new triggers that prevents the Book from being sunk, but thx for this I didnt realise it could also be sunk via units. Now the Book will auto drop only if it is carried by a non-hero unit trying to enter a transport.

Twilight's Cult can research the ensnare upgrade in barracks, but there's no unit in his lineup that would have the ability to ensnare units.

Fixed. Orc Spear Throwers are supposed to use this.

Twilight's Cult's Warlocks' default autocast spell is bloodlust. I know it's a matter of preference, but could it be changed to Shadow Curse, seeing how it's the autocast spell you start with?

The abilities for Twilights have been changed for the better next version. :)

Lady Vashj has only one level of her ultimate. Her elite summons' crushing wave spell uses a default hotkey, which is M in my localisation. You might want to change their hotkeys to the QWER system. Her blink has no cooldown and no hotkey.

Fixed

Power Generators in Dalaran Dungeons and Quel'Thalas no longer have an aura that prevents Blood Elves from turning Wretched, yet they still restore mana over time.

Fixed. They actually never prevented BEs from going wretched but your absolutely right it makes sense that they should have the Mana Feed ability.

Farstriders' and Silver Covenant Rangers' blink spell has no cooldown and no hotkey. In case of Farstriders the suggested blink hotkey (Q) is shared with windwalk.

Oops Farstriders are not supposed to have Blink anymore. Fixed. I ahve added a cooldown for Blink for the Covenant Rangers.

Blood Elven Sorceress' and Aethas Sunweaver's fire elemental summons are affected by curse of the wretched, which makes no sense.

Fixed, I have given them spell immunity so also a nice buff for the summons.

If Forsaken gets access to nerubian hive or nerubian workers, she can train infinite amount of crypt lords

Fixed, Next version requires Azjol Nerub Capital city in order to train these unit types which only Scourge is able to capture.

When you release Yogg-Saron from his chains, the exit portal from his cavern becomes vulnerable and can be destroyed by as little as your own AoE.


Fixed. His chamber has been moved to Ulduar now so no stupid waygate nessesary.


Falstad's passive has a very weird level requirement. I believe it's 1, 6, 8 and 10.

Oh this is for balance, alot of people complained it was op so I didnt want him getting level 4 until at much higher hero levels.


Tartek the abomination's skills are extremely vague in terms of description. You don't really know what they do until you use them. (description has too little info)

Gave them alittle more info.


That's all for now.
 
Level 7
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
194
Not yet, yousef. Marsh's working on it.

@Marsh:

What I suggested was making it so that Legion CANNOT use demon units AT ALL unless KJ is summoned. That'd mean Teal would actually need to use his undead units to his fullest instead of farming gold for demons to be made in the Nether.

On the other hand I suggest nerfing the carrion swarm on dreadlords. As it is right now, all Teal needs to do is to get the dreadlord mastery with starting gold, grab 12 abominations and just kill whoever he sees fit with nothing but his hero squad. It's too easy to pull off and irritates way too many people for what it's worth. Note that I'm saying it as someone who frequently plays Teal.
 
Level 13
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Jul 19, 2011
Messages
646
On the other hand I suggest nerfing the carrion swarm on dreadlords. As it is right now, all Teal needs to do is to get the dreadlord mastery with starting gold, grab 12 abominations and just kill whoever he sees fit with nothing but his hero squad. It's too easy to pull off and irritates way too many people for what it's worth. Note that I'm saying it as someone who frequently plays Teal.
Thank you, and if you played the undead campaign in TFT "A New Power in Lordaeron" chapter you will see Balnazzar have demons in his base, so i like that we can only use lesser demons and undead before KJ come.
 
Level 7
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Aug 11, 2009
Messages
194
I played it, but my issue is that they're unlimited and promote sitting on your ass with 7-8 CPs, because the core of your army is out of enemy's reach. I'd rather see Balnazzar having access to special portals that produce lesser demons than being able to spam them from a place nobody has access to. (apart from you)
 
Level 13
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Jul 19, 2011
Messages
646
I played it, but my issue is that they're unlimited and promote sitting on your ass with 7-8 CPs, because the core of your army is out of enemy's reach. I'd rather see Balnazzar having access to special portals that produce lesser demons than being able to spam them from a place nobody has access to. (apart from you)
I mean there will be a portal inside the city (not the undercity) that have limited number of demons we can make (like in the campaign, Balnazzar wasnt have a great number of demons, he just got a few) and when KJ is summoned the limit should be removed.
 
Level 2
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Messages
17
I suggest nerfing the carrion swarm on dreadlords. As it is right now, all Teal needs to do is to get the dreadlord mastery with starting gold, grab 12 abominations and just kill whoever he sees fit with nothing but his hero squad. It's too easy to pull off and irritates way too many people for what it's worth. Note that I'm saying it as someone who frequently plays Teal.

This. When you don't play Legion, it's irritating to find a player basicly just has to micro his hero squad all game, sniping at cps till 7-8, surrounding your heroes thanks to perma invis and beating them down even with an anti-magic shell or something as they hit very well in close (when said heroes aren't revivable, that's even more irritating...). While micro requires all his attention, he just has to upgrade till 6/6 with uspent gold, getting better dreadlords all the way. When you play Legion, it's boring as hell to do the aformentionned. I'm not a pro with teal but every game I played with them, I won using only dreadlords (I had to summon Kil Jaeden only once).

What I would do:
- My guess is that Legion should indeed play with his undead units until Kil Jaeden is summoned, with the support of lesser demons as in Hyjal campaign and the campaign yousef mentionned (ie. not being able to play dreadlords other than his heroes and the ones he starts with).
- Or you could give them a true windwalk instead of perma invis, that way the one playing Legion would have to choose when time is right for a retreat or surrounding an isolated hero. With mastery, they can teleport anywhere on the (revealed) map so they can flee pretty easily anyway.
- Or you could do just both.
 
Level 2
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Messages
13
This. When you don't play Legion, it's irritating to find a player basicly just has to micro his hero squad all game, sniping at cps till 7-8, surrounding your heroes thanks to perma invis and beating them down even with an anti-magic shell or something as they hit very well in close (when said heroes aren't revivable, that's even more irritating...). While micro requires all his attention, he just has to upgrade till 6/6 with uspent gold, getting better dreadlords all the way. When you play Legion, it's boring as hell to do the aformentionned. I'm not a pro with teal but every game I played with them, I won using only dreadlords (I had to summon Kil Jaeden only once).

What I would do:
- My guess is that Legion should indeed play with his undead units until Kil Jaeden is summoned, with the support of lesser demons as in Hyjal campaign and the campaign yousef mentionned (ie. not being able to play dreadlords other than his heroes and the ones he starts with).
- Or you could give them a true windwalk instead of perma invis, that way the one playing Legion would have to choose when time is right for a retreat or surrounding an isolated hero. With mastery, they can teleport anywhere on the (revealed) map so they can flee pretty easily anyway.
- Or you could do just both.


I can't BELIEVE the amount of INCESSANT whining you idiots are posting on this thread. Good grief. Marsh, please ignore IDIOT Krotos/Zanrhun, most of their ideas are complete crap and will only turn your map into another shitty version of Daow or the current, horrible AWLR.

Lesser demons were always a part of Warcraft LORE, even in Warcraft 1. The Infernal was first introduced in between Warcraft 2 and 3, where Rhonin himself, in the book, battled an Infernal. And since this is Lordaeron AFTERMATH, where Archimonde and the Legion already came into Azeroth, there are countless demons running through Kalimdor as seen in WoW vanilla and in the campaigns there were still dreadlords AND other demons you had to fight when facing Balnazzar at the Undercity.

The Dreadlords exist as they currently are BECAUSE it has been made much harder for teal to summon the legion, especially with the level 10 summoning requirement. Without the Legion, Teal can be crushed pretty easily, or betrayed by Pink and lose his main base AND almost all of his food count. Teal NEEDS his dreadlords, with permanent invisibility as they should be, and with their current mastery which is just fine the way it is. I've extensively tested Teal's dreadlords as Marsh knows, and fought against them with ease. They are, in no small terms, "perfect". They have the right amount of balance, can easily be killed if detected, they have the proper strength at a limit of 6, and have all the right spells concerning the lore of their species. The carrion swarm does NOT need to be nerfed, it is FINE the way it is and without it, teal is pathetic. I think Krotos/Zanrhun are the same idiot noobs who always whine about how Alliance must be OP EVERY GAME, as I see them play Alliance ALL the time, and Krotos especially whining whenever I use Teal's dreadlords against him, even though he has ample counters to their invisibility.

Take my advice, Marsh, as a fellow old mapmaker specializing in balance and lore: Teal is just about finished. A finished product. Anything else that could be added to teal could be possibly with Kael or even Outland, but everything concerning Teal as it is right now is FINE, does NOT need to be "improved" and "improved". Further "improvements" may only make it imbalanced or too nerfed and turn into complete crap like with the idiots who keep editing AWLR or DaoW until it has become complete garbage. Pink is also just about finished, a finished product. In fact, pink IS finished, both in balance and in lore and in events.

Also, the Forsaken/Legion/Fel Elves is not OP, and it works with lore. Obviously, the Dreadlords had the power to offer a fel pact to the blood elves if they truly wanted it, and did later on. However, Sylvanas in lore was also friendly to the blood elves and it makes sense that an alliance could be formed between the dreadlords who are largely an undead faction, the Forsaken with Sylvanas, an undead high elf, and the blood elves turning fel. Often Pink and Teal are threatened with imminent destruction if not for fel elves helping, or vice versa. And if you're going to say Forsaken/Legion/Fel elves is OP, then I can also say that Troll Empire/Horde/Forsaken/Blood Elves is EVEN MORE OP, though in lore it was only "Horde/Forsaken/Blood Elves" and not Troll empire.

Obviously the alliance of Forsaken/Legion/Fel Elves will only last as long as Forsaken doesn't betray Legion, or Legion betray Forsaken. Forsaken will almost always betray Legion in order to get the two additional heroes AND the main capital and Undercity that Forsaken is supposed to get. And Legion will always be crippled unless it can summon KJ and the rest of the Legion, so they will undoubtedly always try to summon KJ if they can, especially if they are desperate, and most Legion players often end up that way. And when Legion is summoned, Teal/Pink's alliance is PERMANENTLY broken. So at best, the alliance of Forsaken/Legion/Fel Elves is only TEMPORARY.


Please Marsh, I implore you, don't listen to the idiots who play DaoW and AWLR all day and think they know what a good Warcraft map looks like, or waste their time on the diplomtard forums. Your map is a breath of fresh air and a cool refreshment from the complete crap of what AWLR and DaoW and GotH has been twisted into. If you are wondering of what factions could use some real tinkering, then as I posted before, yellow is definitely next in line for tinkering. LB could also use a path, that if they stay as Silverhand, they could have the chance to recapture the Lordaeron capital and restore it, as well as recapture Andorhal and Strahnbrad and restore them as well. Even restoring Alterac might be an interesting idea in the future. Also, improving LB's Risen armies could definitely use some attention, as everyone I've seen go Risen always complains about it being horrible, and I find myself agreeing.

As I posted before about yellow having IF as a second chance after losing Aerie Peak and Falstad, as well as Gnomeregan and possibly the Deeprun Tram, which apparently you've introduced with this new IF (Looks excellent btw), you could also finally introduced a 12th faction into the game. Lorewise, Stromguarde was an independent kingdom and the orignal arathor empire that later built Stormwind and Lordaeron, and Stromguarde could again become a 12th faction, with the ruins of Durnholde capturable? LB's "Thoras Trollbane" is somewhat like Garithos, a non-revivable, seemingly purposeless hero, except that Garithos can be captured by Legion or be kept on as a Risen hero, whereas Trollbane is just sitting there with no real purpose.

Or you could also make Gilneas its own faction, as it was in the lore and fiercely independent, as it broke away from the alliance after Warcraft 2. Or you could make Kul'Tiras an independent 12th faction, as Dalaran/Kul'tiras were two entirely different factions and makes no sense lore-wise that Dalaran should be able to control Kul'Tiras, or that Admiral Proudmoore should be a demi-hero while Maiev is not. Since Dalaran already gets Maiev and floating Dalaran, they do not need Kul'Tiras unless they can't get Gilneas.

Or perhaps a completely different idea. You could make the 12th faction be Ironforge itself, which would cause the Twilight and IF to battle in the south while the Aerie Peak dwarves, a seperate faction, would battle with the horde/troll empire. This allows for great balancing and evening up the south so that Twilight doesn't overrun immediately nor get overrun by the north immediately. You could make it so that IF and Aerie Dwarves can only have an alliance when Magni and Falstad are both level 10, and then Magni travel to Aerie Peak to forge the alliance. This was also part of the actual lore, as the Aerie Peak Dwarves were a separate "Wildhammer" dwarf clan faction, not under the rule of the Ironforge "Bronzebeard" dwarf clan faction. This way, IF and Aerie Peak would be controlled by different players and couldn't just ally at the beginning, but would remain neutral and isolated as was in the lore until later on, and would in turn balance out Twilight in the south.

Judging based on what you've finished with IF, it wouldn't be too hard to do, either, as you need not change anything other than just making IF the 12th faction and some minor changes as I mentioned above.

This map needs some new ideas, GOOD ideas and not the stagnant crap that's been offered to you by others. You've spent enough time worrying about the north parts of the map, now is the time to focus and perfect the southern parts.
 
Level 2
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Dec 7, 2013
Messages
17
I wanted to post suggestions for v.1.16 or later (or before if you think some are worth making it into v.1.15 and worth at all).

First of all, when you add Outland, consider the map size is alright. With five continents (Northrend, Quel'thalas, Lordaeron, Khaz Modan and Outland), the map would feel just fine as it's centered around Lordaeron and, as you said previously, there's only one slot left for a new faction, which would hardly be enough to fill Azeroth (Stormwind kingdom), Kalimdor or... *cough* Pandaria (which shouldn't have ever happened in game anyway).

With that said, most of the suggestions I make take into account the fact that there is an Outland:
- In Outland and in reference to my previous post, I can see Legion getting an entirely different way to go: the Black Temple in Shadowmoon valley (perhaps we'll see more pit lords, led by Magtheridon). That would probably mean having only Balnazzar in Lordaeron, as a representative of the three dreadlord brothers (though Sylvanas may still get Varimathras if she goes Horde).
- Horde would get Garadar in Nagrand (after an event).
- Zangarmarsh would be neutral/creeps until BE go Illidari.
- I can see Twilights and the black dragonflight in the Blade's Edge mountains.
- Netherstorm and Terokkar Forest could be home to the Draenei (Broken or not), a new faction (Argent Crusade would loose its ability to make contact with the Draenei, as Velen would be the faction's hero, maybe along with Maraad, a paladin and/or Nobundo, a shaman). Could have an upgrade called "Naaru's guidance" to get the Naaru. That would be a faction to actually join the Alliance (after an event, say Khadgar going to Shattrath), because the Alliance desperately needs it with Dwarves having the possibility to go Dark Irons, Silver Hand turning into Scarlet Crusade and Blood Elves going their way.
- Hellfire peninsula would be Alliance (Honor Hold) with... Khadgar for purple, Falstad for yellow, Turalyon for light blue. Yeah I know, that would be a massive revamp of the way factions are spread at the beginning of a game.

I can see much bloodshed going on in Outland, though most of the continent's content may be unlocked through events.

- - - - - - - - - -

Now, on to specific factions.

- Scourge. You asked for ideas concerning Scourge's events. I think a good addition may be the allegiance of the Ymirjar. That would be triggered by bringing Arthas to the Howling Fjord (Utgarde Keep may take the place of the kalu'ak creeps there). New units: heavy melee (replacing abominations), frost casters and so on. You're free to develop it the way you like. That would mean fighting your way through trolls and/or dwarves to get there, and even perhaps...

- Forsaken. The map already has every Horde/Alliance outposts in Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord, with the exception of Vengeance Landing in Howling Fjord. Bring Sylvanas there and get it (the way it works for the Sepulcher and Tarren Mill). You can place it in the northeast of the Fjord. On the other hand, the alliance with the Val'kyr shouldn't be able before the Frozen Throne/the Lich King is destroyed lorewise. That way, I can see Forsaken sometimes going Horde immediately and fighting alongside trolls to prevent Scourge from getting the Ymirjar and pushing for the Throne. Would be much turmoil in southeast Northrend.

- Cult of the Damned. You said it was time Cult got some love. Well, though Alexei Barov is the owner of Caer Darrow, my guess is that Cult needs a necromancer hero, and Darkmaster Gandling, the head of Scholomance, is just that. Could have an improved version of the necromancer's summon skeletals or a lesser version of the Death Knight's ultimate spell; maybe something that fits with the anti-magic theme of Cult, a AoE disease, and so on. Cult isn't about Death Knights really, that's Scourge's thing (with the exception of Alexandros, as a representative of the Four Horsemen in Naxxramas). You could also think of making Naxxramas able to revive heroes, train acolytes, shadows, necromancers, damned mages, meat wagons and so on. That's supposed to be the super-flying base of Cult's power, bearing in it all of Cult's arsenal.

- Blood Elves. I think in case things go awry for the Illidari, he should be able to research something like ''Assault on Icecrown Citadel'', or as a second chance. That would lead him to becoming the San'layn, vampiric elves allied with Scourge and Cult. You may build a little base for him in Icecrown. He would get Lana'thel and one of the three blood princes (Keleseth, Valanar, Taldaram). As it is, the perimeter of Scourge aligned factions is static (Scourge, Cult). That would make it move a bit.

- Silver Hand. Uh, it doesn't feel Silver Hand as it is, really. It has too many heroes: Faol is an odd addition, as he is supposed to be dead (he's thought to be buried outside the Scarlet monastery), Lord Garithos brings nothing and isn't a paladin, same applies to Galen Trollbane. I would have Silver Hand play... paladin heroes, ie. Tirion, Saiden (just as they are), with the addition of Turalyon in Honor Hold. Uther and Gavinrad are dead, so these are those of the first five paladins that are still alive. You could also make so that, should Alexandros the Undead paladin dies, Tirion automatically gets the Ashbringer (as it would get complicated to add Darion's storyline ^^).

- Troll Empire. When Hakkar is summoned and/or the Animal Gods have been killed, trolls get kicked out of the Horde (you said it was coming for v.1.15). Then, there could be an event such as "Rise of the Zandalari", giving him dinosaurs in limited number (yeah, that's all I found worthy in Mists of Pandaria), to help do it all alone.

- Horde. I feel Mor'ghor brings nothing and should be a demi-hero (like Tandred Proudmoore). Thrall should be there somewhere, perhaps learning with Drek'Thar or in Northrend once the Warsong offensive is launched, as happened in lore, or even poping after some time. He could even become the fifth (along with Kil Jaeden, Deathwing, Lich King and Ragnaros) super-hero he became during Cataclysm, after some difficult event (level 10 + something hard to get). Bringing Thrall to Garadar would unlock it for the Horde.

- Dalaran. Replace Khadgar with Modera or Krasus as a reward for getting New Dalaran (I prefer the latter as Dalaran is going to be about dragons and Krasus ultimate could be a dragon shapeshift, permanent or not); you need Khadgar in Outland. Or any member of the Council of Six you can think of (those two being prominent, though).

- Dwarves. Well I have not much to say here, only that Falstad should start in Outland, perhaps having an event if you bring him to the Aerie Peak (unlocks units and/or upgrades), so that not all of his events involve Northrend.

- Twilights. That one is a tough opponent when in the hands of a good player, which happens from time to time. It feels really good, you should just make Deathwing more powerful than Yogg-Saron and happen later in game (in WoW, we defeated Yogg-Saron before Deathwing's return). As it is, it feels like the very thing nobody wants from Twilight is Yogg-Saron, whose agents can spawn anywhere on the map and are pretty annoying; it should be Deathwing one fears.

- Legion. I already gave most of my ideas for this one in this and in previous posts.

- - - - - - - - - -

What you have to think of when you introduce Outland is when and how the Dark Portal will be reopened. It lays in the Blasted Lands, in Azeroth, a region that won't be in the map. Maybe the Dark Portal may just lay on the southeasternmost spot of the map. Kael'thas or Illidan would have an object to go to Outland, but those that are in and want to get out and those that are out and want to get in order to get events would have to wait until it is actually reopened. It was reopened by Lord Kazzak in lore, maybe you could have it reopened after some time (let's say 30 minutes or something).

Well there's always the possiblity of using scrolls of teleportation, though I think these should be removed from the game entirely, especially once Outland goes live. There is this thing about Legion teleporting demons and, for example, I always get a five second-game Naxxramas just using one as Cult, that's a huge help from the start (15g income and a great tank to creep in Northrend). Scrolls could be used to trigger events in and out of Outland that should have happened later in game, once the Portal is actually reopened. As you said, you have no means of preventing such a use of scrolls. If you remove the scrolls, the map would feel way bigger as one has to move troops carefully, leave some behind for defensive purpose and get his events the hard way.

I really apologize for that wall of text. Feel free to use whatever idea you find worthy of making it into live, or none if you can't find any.
 
Level 13
Joined
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Messages
646
I wanted to post suggestions for v.1.16 or later (or before if you think some are worth making it into v.1.15 and worth at all).

First of all, when you add Outland, consider the map size is alright. With five continents (Northrend, Quel'thalas, Lordaeron, Khaz Modan and Outland), the map would feel just fine as it's centered around Lordaeron and, as you said previously, there's only one slot left for a new faction, which would hardly be enough to fill Azeroth (Stormwind kingdom), Kalimdor or... *cough* Pandaria (which shouldn't have ever happened in game anyway).

With that said, most of the suggestions I make take into account the fact that there is an Outland:
- In Outland and in reference to my previous post, I can see Legion getting an entirely different way to go: the Black Temple in Shadowmoon valley (perhaps we'll see more pit lords, led by Magtheridon). That would probably mean having only Balnazzar in Lordaeron, as a representative of the three dreadlord brothers (though Sylvanas may still get Varimathras if she goes Horde).
- Horde would get Garadar in Nagrand (after an event).
- Zangarmarsh would be neutral/creeps until BE go Illidari.
- I can see Twilights and the black dragonflight in the Blade's Edge mountains.
- Netherstorm and Terokkar Forest could be home to the Draenei (Broken or not), a new faction (Argent Crusade would loose its ability to make contact with the Draenei, as Velen would be the faction's hero, maybe along with Maraad, a paladin and/or Nobundo, a shaman). Could have an upgrade called "Naaru's guidance" to get the Naaru. That would be a faction to actually join the Alliance (after an event, say Khadgar going to Shattrath), because the Alliance desperately needs it with Dwarves having the possibility to go Dark Irons, Silver Hand turning into Scarlet Crusade and Blood Elves going their way.
- Hellfire peninsula would be Alliance (Honor Hold) with... Khadgar for purple, Falstad for yellow, Turalyon for light blue. Yeah I know, that would be a massive revamp of the way factions are spread at the beginning of a game.

I can see much bloodshed going on in Outland, though most of the continent's content may be unlocked through events.

- - - - - - - - - -

Now, on to specific factions.

- Scourge. You asked for ideas concerning Scourge's events. I think a good addition may be the allegiance of the Ymirjar. That would be triggered by bringing Arthas to the Howling Fjord (Utgarde Keep may take the place of the kalu'ak creeps there). New units: heavy melee (replacing abominations), frost casters and so on. You're free to develop it the way you like. That would mean fighting your way through trolls and/or dwarves to get there, and even perhaps...

- Forsaken. The map already has every Horde/Alliance outposts in Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord, with the exception of Vengeance Landing in Howling Fjord. Bring Sylvanas there and get it (the way it works for the Sepulcher and Tarren Mill). You can place it in the northeast of the Fjord. On the other hand, the alliance with the Val'kyr shouldn't be able before the Frozen Throne/the Lich King is destroyed lorewise. That way, I can see Forsaken sometimes going Horde immediately and fighting alongside trolls to prevent Scourge from getting the Ymirjar and pushing for the Throne. Would be much turmoil in southeast Northrend.

- Cult of the Damned. You said it was time Cult got some love. Well, though Alexei Barov is the owner of Caer Darrow, my guess is that Cult needs a necromancer hero, and Darkmaster Gandling, the head of Scholomance, is just that. Could have an improved version of the necromancer's summon skeletals or a lesser version of the Death Knight's ultimate spell; maybe something that fits with the anti-magic theme of Cult, a AoE disease, and so on. Cult isn't about Death Knights really, that's Scourge's thing (with the exception of Alexandros, as a representative of the Four Horsemen in Naxxramas). You could also think of making Naxxramas able to revive heroes, train acolytes, shadows, necromancers, damned mages, meat wagons and so on. That's supposed to be the super-flying base of Cult's power, bearing in it all of Cult's arsenal.

- Blood Elves. I think in case things go awry for the Illidari, he should be able to research something like ''Assault on Icecrown Citadel'', or as a second chance. That would lead him to becoming the San'layn, vampiric elves allied with Scourge and Cult. You may build a little base for him in Icecrown. He would get Lana'thel and one of the three blood princes (Keleseth, Valanar, Taldaram). As it is, the perimeter of Scourge aligned factions is static (Scourge, Cult). That would make it move a bit.

- Silver Hand. Uh, it doesn't feel Silver Hand as it is, really. It has too many heroes: Faol is an odd addition, as he is supposed to be dead (he's thought to be buried outside the Scarlet monastery), Lord Garithos brings nothing and isn't a paladin, same applies to Galen Trollbane. I would have Silver Hand play... paladin heroes, ie. Tirion, Saiden (just as they are), with the addition of Turalyon in Honor Hold. Uther and Gavinrad are dead, so these are those of the first five paladins that are still alive. You could also make so that, should Alexandros the Undead paladin dies, Tirion automatically gets the Ashbringer (as it would get complicated to add Darion's storyline ^^).

- Troll Empire. When Hakkar is summoned and/or the Animal Gods have been killed, trolls get kicked out of the Horde (you said it was coming for v.1.15). Then, there could be an event such as "Rise of the Zandalari", giving him dinosaurs in limited number (yeah, that's all I found worthy in Mists of Pandaria), to help do it all alone.

- Horde. I feel Mor'ghor brings nothing and should be a demi-hero (like Tandred Proudmoore). Thrall should be there somewhere, perhaps learning with Drek'Thar or in Northrend once the Warsong offensive is launched, as happened in lore, or even poping after some time. He could even become the fifth (along with Kil Jaeden, Deathwing, Lich King and Ragnaros) super-hero he became during Cataclysm, after some difficult event (level 10 + something hard to get). Bringing Thrall to Garadar would unlock it for the Horde.

- Dalaran. Replace Khadgar with Modera or Krasus as a reward for getting New Dalaran (I prefer the latter as Dalaran is going to be about dragons and Krasus ultimate could be a dragon shapeshift, permanent or not); you need Khadgar in Outland. Or any member of the Council of Six you can think of (those two being prominent, though).

- Dwarves. Well I have not much to say here, only that Falstad should start in Outland, perhaps having an event if you bring him to the Aerie Peak (unlocks units and/or upgrades), so that not all of his events involve Northrend.

- Twilights. That one is a tough opponent when in the hands of a good player, which happens from time to time. It feels really good, you should just make Deathwing more powerful than Yogg-Saron and happen later in game (in WoW, we defeated Yogg-Saron before Deathwing's return). As it is, it feels like the very thing nobody wants from Twilight is Yogg-Saron, whose agents can spawn anywhere on the map and are pretty annoying; it should be Deathwing one fears.

- Legion. I already gave most of my ideas for this one in this and in previous posts.

- - - - - - - - - -

What you have to think of when you introduce Outland is when and how the Dark Portal will be reopened. It lays in the Blasted Lands, in Azeroth, a region that won't be in the map. Maybe the Dark Portal may just lay on the southeasternmost spot of the map. Kael'thas or Illidan would have an object to go to Outland, but those that are in and want to get out and those that are out and want to get in order to get events would have to wait until it is actually reopened. It was reopened by Lord Kazzak in lore, maybe you could have it reopened after some time (let's say 30 minutes or something).

Well there's always the possiblity of using scrolls of teleportation, though I think these should be removed from the game entirely, especially once Outland goes live. There is this thing about Legion teleporting demons and, for example, I always get a five second-game Naxxramas just using one as Cult, that's a huge help from the start (15g income and a great tank to creep in Northrend). Scrolls could be used to trigger events in and out of Outland that should have happened later in game, once the Portal is actually reopened. As you said, you have no means of preventing such a use of scrolls. If you remove the scrolls, the map would feel way bigger as one has to move troops carefully, leave some behind for defensive purpose and get his events the hard way.

I really apologize for that wall of text. Feel free to use whatever idea you find worthy of making it into live, or none if you can't find any.
I liked these ideas very much and about the scrolls of teleportation, you can remove it or make a requirement that the Dark Portal must be opened, and about the 12th player i suggest that it should be fel orcs of Outland, their capitals could be the Black Temple or/and Hellfire Citadil or Draenei in Outland (broken or unbroken, unbroken will be better), their capital could be Shattrath City or Arathor Kingdom and make them with yellow an alliance (South Alliance) only if it will not imbalance the game, their capitals could be Stormwind or/and Stromguard, about the events, you can make an event for the Draenei that they can join the Alliance after the Dark Portal is opened, that is all i got of events.

I liked the ideas for Northrend that you said and the Troll Empire, Zanrhun, you got some great ideas.

NOTE : You can make these ideas or make some of them if it will not imbalance the game.
 
Level 2
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
17
I can't BELIEVE the amount of INCESSANT whining you idiots are posting on this thread. Good grief. Marsh, please ignore IDIOT Krotos/Zanrhun, most of their ideas are complete crap and will only turn your map into another shitty version of Daow or the current, horrible AWLR.

You do not get credit for denying us the possibility to give constructive feedbacks. You are the only one whining here, because our ideas don't match yours. By the way, invoking things like: "ZAN/KROTOS YOU IDIOT NOOBS PLAYING ALLIANCE AND PLAYING DAoW/AW AND POSTING ON DIPLOMTARDS FFS" to prove your point is rather not constructive.

Krotos and I reported on our feelings about the Legion (he actually plays it more than I do, I personnally find it sooo boring). You have a right not to agree, but no right to insult us for not seeing things as you do.

Take my advice, Marsh, as a fellow old mapmaker specializing in balance and lore

Really (underlining's mine)?

Also, the Forsaken/Legion/Fel Elves is not OP, and it works with lore. Obviously, the Dreadlords had the power to offer a fel pact to the blood elves if they truly wanted it, and did later on. However, Sylvanas in lore was also friendly to the blood elves and it makes sense that an alliance could be formed between the dreadlords who are largely an undead faction, the Forsaken with Sylvanas, an undead high elf, and the blood elves turning fel. Often Pink and Teal are threatened with imminent destruction if not for fel elves helping, or vice versa. And if you're going to say Forsaken/Legion/Fel elves is OP, then I can also say that Troll Empire/Horde/Forsaken/Blood Elves is EVEN MORE OP, though in lore it was only "Horde/Forsaken/Blood Elves" and not Troll empire.

Obviously the alliance of Forsaken/Legion/Fel Elves will only last as long as Forsaken doesn't betray Legion, or Legion betray Forsaken. Forsaken will almost always betray Legion in order to get the two additional heroes AND the main capital and Undercity that Forsaken is supposed to get. And Legion will always be crippled unless it can summon KJ and the rest of the Legion, so they will undoubtedly always try to summon KJ if they can, especially if they are desperate, and most Legion players often end up that way. And when Legion is summoned, Teal/Pink's alliance is PERMANENTLY broken. So at best, the alliance of Forsaken/Legion/Fel Elves is only TEMPORARY.

First of all, this is untrue: Sylvanas offered assistance to the Sin'dorei only after she had secured her position in Lordaeron, after she had gained admittance into the Horde. Make sure you know your lore before posting.

As for the impact this has in game, this is also untrue: those three easily get all of Lordaeron, leaving Horde and Alliance agonizing and with only Scourge/Twilight as real counterpowers. The point is not that it is temporary, the point is that this period of time is well enough to ruin the game of at least five players if it happens from the start (Dalaran remnants, Silver Hand, Horde, Troll Empire and Wildhammer dwarves). There's no fun in it. Anyway, Marshmalo already approved of it being so that Legion must choose between his uneasy truce with Sylvanas and the allegiance of Kael's BE.
 
Level 7
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Aug 11, 2009
Messages
194
First of all: WOW, there's so much poison being spewn around by Anubis I thought I entered a forum about cobra snakes. I have played with you only >once< when I was Red and the Alliance won anyway.

FYI I don't play any of the maps you mentioned. They either have such a stale gameplay a zombie would look like a young cheetah (AWLR), have lost ANY sort of resemblance of balance, aesthetics or logic (DAoW) or just don't entertain me, because they lack something that draws me to the game. (GotH, no elves as a faction, no fun)

Secondly: you're missing the entire point behind Teal. Sorry to burst your bubble, but all you need are 12 abominations to serve as a meatwall and your Dreads can spam-wave the enemy to oblivion without any consequences. They won't implode in 2 seconds as you might imply, because Balnazzar and Detheroc's summons are more than enough to serve as additional damage / block. In ALL of my games as Teal, I didn't have to summon Kil'Jaeden EVEN ONCE. He was detrimental to me throughout the entire game and would do nothing but make me lose the game simply by being a huge target.

The Dreadlord brothers together with elites are so powerful once they get to level 5+ you don't need anything else to win the game. I'm saying this as someone who plays as Teal just as often as Red and use my own, personal experience as TEAL, not the player facing him. EVEN IF you're betrayed by pink, the dreadlord mastery grants you so much power thanks to global dreadlord presence you can be anywhere, letting you farm creeps / harrassing enemies / preparing for a doomdrop from the Nether.

@Dreads being easily killed: They have 1070 health if I recall correctly (elites) and can remove the dust debuff with mirror image. If enemy uses arcane towers (alliance) vs them, they're fast enough to get away. They have huge base damage and feedback to boost their attacks vs heroes. In no way are they weak or easily killed, especially when their mana pool is pretty much infinite with Balnazzar running around.

I find it pretty amusing that you have to insult both me and Zanrhun to reinforce your point. It shows that you lack the capabilities to refute one's arguments.

Marsh's a big boy and knows what he's doing. I'm pretty sure that he's aware that Dreadlords are stronger than they should be and don't offer as much to the gameplay as they're taking away from it.

EDIT: Apparently Anubis cannot provide constructive feedback, seeing how the first thing he did after hosting LTA on MMH was kicking me, then calling me a "little whiny bitch kid" and then telling me "to go back to AWLR and DAoW", none of which I play. That being said, Anubis, I don't think you should participate in a discussion if your general stance is "Agree with me or die in fire" (this is how it looks like, not what you said).
 
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Level 13
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Messages
646
Oh, the thread turned into a battlefield.
I think Anubis is wrong, he only want everyone to agree with him or burn in hell, he don't care about the other people's feedback.
 
Level 2
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
17
Hellfire peninsula would be Alliance (Honor Hold) with... Khadgar for purple, Falstad for yellow, Turalyon for light blue. Yeah I know, that would be a massive revamp of the way factions are spread at the beginning of a game.

[...]

- Dwarves. Well I have not much to say here, only that Falstad should start in Outland, perhaps having an event if you bring him to the Aerie Peak (unlocks units and/or upgrades), so that not all of his events involve Northrend.

Uh, sorry about that. I meant Kurdran Wildhammer, not Falstad. I would have it so that bringing Kurdran to the Aerie Peak triggers an event, that perhaps would unlock units/upgrades and/or even Falstad.

- I can see Twilights and the black dragonflight in the Blade's Edge mountains.

[...]

- Twilights. That one is a tough opponent when in the hands of a good player, which happens from time to time. It feels really good, you should just make Deathwing more powerful than Yogg-Saron and happen later in game (in WoW, we defeated Yogg-Saron before Deathwing's return). As it is, it feels like the very thing nobody wants from Twilight is Yogg-Saron, whose agents can spawn anywhere on the map and are pretty annoying; it should be Deathwing one fears.

Never mind that, I've been mistaken. Let's say Twilights is alright as it is, with a great end game. Still, I would have them get something in the Blade's Edge mountains, to give them a logical presence in Outland.
 
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