Killing Animals. Morals.

[Radicool]

Introduction

Hey, I wanted to talk about something serious. About whether killing animals (nicely or horribly) is a right thing to do. I began to question if its right for me to eat meat and whether I should become a vegetarian. I have felt this way to a small degree for a while now, but until I recently watched a video somebody shared on facebook, and its made me seriously think about it all.

The Spark to the Story

I'd like to mention this video is absoultely horrific and can critically disturb you. Do not watch if you are too sensitive to blood, animals, etc.

https://secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=3957

I wanted to mention that whether it is right or wrong to kill and eat/use animals, whether they have been "humanely" (yes in speech marks) or "inhumanely" killed and I will discuss in point form. I beleive it is ok to kill an animal for self defence. I DO understand the video was about animal cruelty, but it has also made me think about killing animals as a whole. Take note, I havent decided yet on which side I take and was curious for other people's thoughts.

Arguement For

• 
  Eating meat is a neccessary thing to do in life. Eating meat is what we have done for generations. There are carnivores (meat eaters), herbivores (plant eaters) and omnivores(meat and plant eaters) in this world, humans being omnivores. Your dog eats meat and its digestive system is not really designed to eat plants. Most dogs will not eat plants either, although a lot of dogs eat a diet of pedigree biscuits or what not which is in fact a non-meat diet. We all need to eat. Meat provides many vitamins and minerals, and to my knowledge plays a role in many religions, and many people find it quite tasty. Meat is pherhaps almost required to eat by humans.

• 
  We can kill animals to provide skins. Skins are for making clothes such as jackets, pants, gloves, etc. There are alternatives like cotton, however materials like leather are made from animals and are commonly used. As humans, we need clothing.

Arguements Against

• 
  Animals are life. Life just like you and me. They have brains, they breathe, they think. They hate, they love, they smile, they cry. We are just another animal. The sad truth about the world is you need to eat to stay alive. You don't eat you die. And for many animals, including humans, we have to kill and eat. We as humans can eat plants as an alternative. Is it right to end the life of an animal? Look at your dog. You cat. Why is a sheep or a cow any different? I'm not sure.

• 
  When people talk about killing an animal "humanely" they mean to kill the animal quickly - pain and suffer free. Yes, it can be debated that whether killing an animal is considered to be "humane", as its definately not "humane" for one human to kill another. So is it "humane" for a human to kill an animal? I dont see why they should be treated differently. Pherhaps we just need a different word to describe killing an animal "humanely"? Then problem solved. I don't know.

Conclusion

In the end, I am unsure if eating animals is right or wrong. And I am not stupid and will know that there will be people who think its fine, and people who think its wrong. What I DONT want to see, is people hating on eachother about someone else's diet!

However, whatever conclusion I come to, I will NEVER approve of what I saw in that video and I urge you to sign the petitions to put a stop to it.

 

[gorillabull]

they should at least kill these racoons before they skin them not skin them alive thats plain sadistic the rest is normal people like fur its gotta come from somewhere i dunno why people think this is such a big deal tho its been going on for a long time

 

[Zakamutt]

The problem with killing humans is not necessarily that it ends their life, but the effects on other people due to the person no longer existing. Assuming these problems are substantially less pronounced in animals, there is less of a problem in killing animals.

I'm for killing animals, mostly due to unwillingness to be hypocritical since I love meat. It should preferably be done with as little pain inflicted as possible, though. Obviously, I am against skinning creatures alive. I get this feeling it might not be good for the workers' mental health either, though maybe I'm just being naive.

 

[Radicool]

they should at least kill these racoons before they skin them not skin them alive thats plain sadistic the rest is normal people like fur its gotta come from somewhere i dunno why people think this is such a big deal tho its been going on for a long time

I suppose there are alternatives to skinning animals. However, just because something has been "going on for a long time" does not justify itself

The problem with killing humans is not necessarily that it ends their life, but the effects on other people due to the person no longer existing. Assuming these problems are substantially less pronounced in animals, there is less of a problem in killing animals.

Thanks for your input, it was insightful, however I have to ask. You don't think death is a burden on the individual dying, that it only affects the ones that knew the dying man? I'm really sorry to use this as an analogy, but I dont know how else to ask it (I mean no offence): If I point a gun to you, the life you just lived has no meaning? The fear of the gun will no longer matter, because you believe there is no form of afterlife or at least the previous life is of no meaning to it?

I'm for killing animals, mostly due to unwillingness to be hypocritical since I love meat. It should preferably be done with as little pain inflicted as possible, though. Obviously, I am against skinning creatures alive. I get this feeling it might not be good for the workers' mental health either, though maybe I'm just being naive.

I can understand your point. I agree animals should be killed with minimial pain, suffering and don't see death coming. I have to say this because its not right for me to say you cannot eat meat. Pherhaps I need time to come to my own conclusion however.

I also believe it cannot be healthy for the worker's mental health. But then again, butchers do similar work. They do not work on alive animals, but they do disember dead bodies. I suppose both are different but....

 

[saphiree]

I'm 100% pro killing animals as long as its done "humanly" as you put it. Didn't watch the whole video, but saw some of it, and the people who does that should be killed in the same way imo (not even exaggerating here that's my opinion).

 

[Nuclear]

I'll address the listed arguments against;

Animals are life.

So are cancer cells. We have so much life on this planets that something being living doesn't alone give any privileges, also I'd make an argument that they're living creatures of another species, so they aren't comparable to us in that sense.

I dont see why they should be treated differently.

Different levels of consciousness and intelligence, and feeling of "true" emotions beyond primitive instinct.

 

[Zakamutt]

Thanks for your input, it was insightful, however I have to ask. You don't think death is a burden on the individual dying, that it only affects the ones that knew the dying man? I'm really sorry to use this as an analogy, but I dont know how else to ask it (I mean no offence): If I point a gun to you, the life you just lived has no meaning? The fear of the gun will no longer matter, because you believe there is no form of afterlife or at least the previous life is of no meaning to it?

None taken, this is an extremely interesting subject to me. As you suspected, I do not believe in any kind of afterlife.

First of all, the analogy is inept, as animals should not know they are about to die in a humane execution method. Second, the life did have meaning, which is the main difference I argue between humans and animals. The meaning was expressed through the life's effect on the environment, and most importantly other animals. I guess I can add to this that animals are social in differing degrees, and it can thus potentially be somewhat bad to kill an animal another animal has some kind of bond with.

However, there are arguments that the actual continued life of an organism has worth, as more utility may be gained. Of course, it is entirely possible that the life was not very good, and there would be an eventual zero sum or negative result - can't say I see this as broadly applicable, though.

In the end, we'd have to ask the value of the animal continuously being alive to itself, minus any knowledge of the upcoming death. It's quite probable that this is nonzero in, say, pigs (they are pretty smart). Is this value less than the value gained from human exploitation of the dead animal?

I know I'm going to have a damn tasty meal today thanks to 500-ish grammes of pork mincemeat. There is significantly more meat than that on a dead pig.

 

[GhostThruster]

Killing animals is neither wrong or right. Morals are subjective. <Fact

Other animals kill other animals, so why can't we as fellow animals kill other animals? Btw, if you are to use the 'we have morals/intelligence' and so forth counterpoint, then you're also bringing up the point that animals are lesser than us and have less intelligent thought processes than us. However, animals should be killed as painlessly as possible, and if there are better alternatives, we should pursue them (eg. cloning animals to be farmed, artificial fur, or you know, just SHAVING the fucking animal rather than skinning it). Going vegetarian is not a better alternative however; it will deprive us of protein, and will pretty much destroy most economies. <Opinion.

I support the fur boycott. Olivia Munn is hot. <Opinion.

 

[Radicool]

I said animals are life, but the arguement is being raised against that. From what I've read is that animals have less intelligence than us and therefore their emotions arn't as developed as human's emotions. So their death is of less meaning than that of a human. Can we proove that animals emotions are not as deep of that of a humans, scientifically of course? I'd like to use dogs as an example. I beleive dogs are filled with happiness and joy. I know if a dog dies in a movie, it is usually sadder than if a human dies, if both characters are equally developped. Dogs are a very emotional animal in my opinion. I wouldn't dream of killing or eating a dog. Why is a sheep any different?

So are cancer cells. We have so much life on this planets that something being living doesn't alone give any privileges, also I'd make an argument that they're living creatures of another species, so they aren't comparable to us in that sense.

My point about animals being "life" is pointed out above this post. I mean they beings with emotions just like you. I'm not sure where the line is drawn yet, but cancer cells do not have any intelligence or emotions. I mean, scientifically, a single cell has functions to perform in response to stimuli, but it does not act upon "thinking". However, I also mentioned in my original post that killing animals is definately ok if its for self defence, a moment were its you or him. Cancer cells threaten the host's life, and therefore must be killed.

Killing animals is neither wrong or right. Morals are subjective.

I am aware that it is a discussion of morales. I was hoping for a neutral debate here, allowing me to see other's viewpoints and thus help me create my own. I am sitting on the fence, and I don't know which side I'm going to fall into yet. I have learnt a great deal already though.

 

[GreeN!X]

Didn't watch the video coz my lil' bro is right here with me.. But I can read from the comments above that it is about raccoons being skinned alive. That is just plain wrong. Those people could have at least ended the racoon's life first before skinning it. But from the start, I am always against skinning those animals alive (like raccoons and rabbits). For me, Cows, goat, chicken and pigs are OK to kill not only because they're delicious, but they're raised and domesticated(dunno if that's the right word) for that purpose. To be eaten by humans without the effort of hunting them and without the risk of being beaten to death. And I think almost all of their parts are being used.. Not like the raccoon hat was inhumanely killed just for its skin.

From what I've read is that animals have less intelligence than us and therefore their emotions arn't as developed as human's emotions. So their death is of less meaning than that of a human.

I don't really agree that if an animal has less intelligence, it would have less developed emotions. I have read some DYK?'s and some facts that animals are more aggressive when they are caring for their youngs. Some animals even cry whenever their young is taken away from them. That is why I really don't believe that animals have less developed emotions than us humans. And if they do have less developed emotions, that really doesn't make their death less meaningful.

I know if a dog dies in a movie, it is usually sadder than if a human dies, if both characters are equally developped. Dogs are a very emotional animal in my opinion. I wouldn't dream of killing or eating a dog. Why is a sheep any different?

IKR? Dogs are very lovable creatures. (Yeah I know, even if I'm a cat. I still have some love for dogs) They are quite fun to play with and to cuddle with. I even cry whenever a dog dies in a movie but not when a human dies because most of the time, when a dog dies, it is usually because of it's loyalty to it's owner (Defending it's master from a speeding bullet for example).

I really can't explain the sheep part.. I'm confused with that too.. But whenever I eat meat and think about that, I always say "This animal has been raised and killed for it's meat. That is its purpose." Then I feel sorry for it a few seconds, then gobble it all up so that it can be happy again in my stomach. :3

 

[Nuclear]

I really can't explain the sheep part.. I'm confused with that too..

Well, the sheep and dog thingy is that we humans perceive different traits as cute, and sheep has less of these traits than a dog. Also there's a large cultural influence; dogs are generally used as pets and companions, whereas sheep is usually just livestock used for food or wool production, and the bond with them is thus slighter than with dogs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedomorphosis

 

[Zakamutt]

Damn, pedomorphosis is a pretty funny name (I guess pedo prolly means "child" or something)

 

[trolman]

I beleive dogs are filled with happiness and joy. I know if a dog dies in a movie, it is usually sadder than if a human dies, if both characters are equally developped. Dogs are a very emotional animal in my opinion. I wouldn't dream of killing or eating a dog. Why is a sheep any different?

They dont have those problems in Vietnam.

 

[takakenji]

that video is peta propaganda

 

[Nuclear]

 

[Dr Super Good]

Humans are animals...

Proof? Stand by any male changing room at a high school before or after P.E. Listen to all those primate calls.

 

[Edhel-dur]

I just read the OP, only skewed through the rest of the comments. Anyway the following intrigued me to some degree and I believe I can answer the question, at least from my point of view.

Animals are life. Life just like you and me. They have brains, they breathe, they think. They hate, they love, they smile, they cry. We are just another animal. The sad truth about the world is you need to eat to stay alive. You don't eat you die. And for many animals, including humans, we have to kill and eat. We as humans can eat plants as an alternative. Is it right to end the life of an animal? Look at your dog. You cat. Why is a sheep or a cow any different? I'm not sure.

So I had a dog, and currently have a cat. I was at the country side, seen and touched cows, sheep, mules, horses etc.

Leaving aside the more exotic animals (tigers, lions etc) horses, cats and dogs are one of the most intelligent and common animals around us. Why don't we eat them? Simply put, there is no benefit in doing so. You want to keep the horse alive to pull your wagon, you want to keep your cat alive to hunt for mice, and you want to keep your dog alive to guard your house from intruders.

But there is also a second aspect, you see... sheep don't actually have the same spectrum of feelings and emotions a horse has. A horse can actually become a man's friend. He has the brain capacity to accept and build a bond with a human, a strong bond, a close bond, a bond based on love. If you like sunsets, you can take your horse somewhere, watch the sunset together and the horse will understand that bonding activity. While as a sheep will not. A sheep is a sheep, it has instincts but can't ever create a real bond with another human because their brain isn't as well developed. So why should I feel pity for an animal who's eyes are always empty, for an animal who isn't able to understand anything about me, and an animal who cannot be loyal to me, or be my friend in any way, shape or form.

I agree with killing cows, sheep, pigs for their meat. What I am against is killing proud animals for their fur, like lions and tigers. And I am against having any species extinct because we ate it all, just like with the buffalo in USA and Europe.

What I think should happen, is maybe have less children, stop the growth of human population on this planet, maintain a certain balance so we can all eat well, not end up being that many that there isn't enough meat or food for all of us, and that we are down to ratios.

 

[Zakamutt]

^ pigs are at least as intelligent as cats/dogs

 

[HammerFist132]

how to we stop growing population, that means stop fucking, and that is fucking imposible.

We are probably worst animals on the plannet, anything what we designh is created to destroy ourself and everything next to us, we lead ourself in apocalypse and when it comes, we will shameless go to church and prey, that is so sad about us.

EDIT: I have never took rock to hit dog, I have never hitted cat or something like that, I really cannot understand such people. Just imagine to u are dog and someone is attacking u with no reason.

 

[Radicool]

They dont have those problems in Vietnam.

In vietnam and a lot of other poorer countries, they experience things like hunger, thirst, lack of security, etc. All these things relate to the maslow's hierarchy of needs. To prove this, there are many cases where severe hunger "releases another side" of the individual. People can turn absolutely horrible if pushed to extremes in order for their own survival. Things like cannabilism, etc. I'm not saying Vietnam is pushed to these extremes, but they are pushed more than us.

As people with a more stable community, new problems develop, like being bullied at school, depression, animal rights, etc. We are in a position to make a better reality. Don't spoil the oppurtunity. This writing is a combination of fact and speculation.

If your interested: http://www.businessballs.com/maslow.htm

that video is peta propaganda

Yes. It is propaganda because it means to persuade people. The treatment of animals in that video is not a lie of course, so negative treatment of animals exists. And therefore I agree that animals needed to be treated better. Of course I'm only talking about the organisation/countries or people that are actually treating them badly.

Nuclear's Youtube Video

I have watched about half the video for now and I found some good points. However I want to question 2 things. Why does he mention we have "slavery in our own family histories", to devalue the point the lady of Peta said about animals being slaves.

And also, in the Nazi reign, Hitler raised his arm in speeches and his people also did. What does this raising of the arm and hand actually mean? I couldn't find anything about it in research. The narrator of the video compared Peta's speech to Hitler. I have no idea why. Is that suppose to scare the audience? Is the raising of the arm actually an evil symbol of something? Or is it just something the Nazis did as a sign on agreement of something?

Also, he jokes that a chicken is eating some KFC. I don't find any humour in his joke. I dont think allowing a chicken to be a cannible is a funny thing. Additionally it is very one sided. He takes short quotes from the Peta organisation and rips it in two. He doesn't attempt to understand the Peta organisation.

Humans are animals...

Proof? Stand by any male changing room at a high school before or after P.E. Listen to all those primate calls.

There are 2 definitions for an animal. A noun and an objective. A noun being what an animal really is, and the objective being our way of describing another person, which is defined by our society.

1.) "(Noun) A living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly..."

2.) "(Adjective) Of, relating to, or characteristic of animals: "animal life"."

I beleive when we say somebody is an animal, we mean they act like another animal, a dog or a pig, whatever. In other words they are probebly being rude or disgusting or something. What we are by definition is an animal Doctor. I don't like to mix up the two definitions of it though. What society's definition of an animal is, and what a scientists definition of an animal is.

I just read the OP, only skewed through the rest of the comments.

Yes, the path of the thread changes over time and with the influence of others decisions. In the end I was curious to other peoples thoughts and wanted to develop an understanding. The thread to this point still remains about the treatment and killing of animals. And that was always the title of this thread. But thank you for your post. It reminded me of something important.

pigs are at least as intelligent as cats/dogs

This is where things get even more complicated isn't it.

 

[Kitabatake]

how to we stop growing population, that means stop fucking, and that is fucking imposible.

Oh but there are many other ways to save mankind from itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentti_Linkola#Ideas

 

[DZerpic]

I wanted to add my POV. I also just read the OP and took a quick glance at page 1 of this thread (I read page 2, though), not reading every comment thoroughly.

It's been little more than a year since I became a vegetarian. Still, I always cared for animals and how, farm animals in particular, are treated. Here, I've read some things to which I don't agree but I don't intend to list because it'll probably start a fight and it's not that important, anyways. Those post will probably get referenced indirectly anyways.

The problem with farm animals is that they are not simply killed for their meat. You all know the movie The Matrix, I presume. In that movie, humans are born and bred by machines with the only purpouse of feeding off their electric energy. Humans here have absolutely no free will but the machines, in order to trick their minds, create an artificial world which is the Matrix. No need to further explain the movie.

The thing is, farm animals are born and bred inside farms and their only reason to exist, to be treated that way, is so we can eat their meat, make furs out of their skin and etc. Except there's no Matrix for the cows.

If you haven't, watch this. It's a video narrated by Paul McCartney about how farm animals are treated.

We as the human race, in general, have absolutely no reason to kill animals for food. Wild animals like lions and elephants are killed for fur and sport. Farm animals are not only killed but tortured for our own enjoyment. But there's no real reason for that. Not with our technology and our social organization skills.

----------

On to the OP.
I understand the post will probably get too long if I also answer the OP. I believe it's worth it. This is a serious matter and if you don't believe so, you can stop reading my post.

1 - Radicool's first question was: "Is it right for me to eat meat?".

In my opinion, It isn't right. As many already said, an animal's life IS a life. Just like any other. why would a dog or a sheep be less than a human. Because the later has a concious mind is not the right answer.

The video I linked above gives you another reason why not to: Animals are bred in horrible, inhumane conditions (comparing those images to a nazi concentration camp isn't far from the truth, albeit it's a sensible subject.), and they are not killed right away. What happens inside a slaughterhouse is pretty much a torture without the questioning.

2 - "Should I become a vegetarian?"

I'm not going to say yes. I did become one and, so far, I'm glad I did. It's only up to you, your opinions and convictions. If you do so, be sure to control what you eat. Meat gives you certain nutrients and vitamins that can be replaced with vegetables. But you must know HOW. DO NOT risk your health.

3 - Radicool then proceeds to list "Arguments For" the killing of animals. Point three is: "Eating meat is a necessity"

I disagree. I know a lot of people that have lived 20+ years without touching meat. It won't give you as much protein and nutrients as you think anyways, because they are lost with every process the meat goes through. From freezing to cooking to digesting it.

4 - "Your dog eats meat and it's digestive system is not designed to eat plants"

This doesn't mean a dog can't be vegetarian. Believe it or not, I have friends whose dogs DON'T eat meat. They do give them a lot of fruit. their digestive systems are so small and their intestines so short they can't absorb everything from the fruit.

This is not a lie. I'm trying to keep this post as serious as possible and, so far, I've not been trying to convince anyone; I'm just trying to shed some light into this matters from my particular POV. The dogs ARE healthy.

5 - This is regarding points 3 & 4.

I'm a spiritual man. That is, I do believe in god and certain other esoteric things I don't plan on discussing. I believe there's another reason not to eat meat.

Basically, when you eat an animal's meat you "eat" it's karma and it's suffering. Imagine karma as a backpack full of stones we all have to carry around. Some have more stones, some have less, but our goals are the same: to empty our backpack of stones. To essence of karma. When you eat the cows meat, you add some of the cow's stones to your backpack.

Extra stones for being a part of the process of torturing and killing the animal, eventhough you didn't really commit the act.

I can't physically prove karma exists. You need faith for that. But I believe I proved to myself and those around me that you indeed "eat" the animal's suffering; it manifests in your mood.

Give it a try, don't eat any meat for 2-4 weeks and pay careful attention. After a year, I can say I'm much calmer and sensible than before. I rarely get angry when I used to break doors and keyboards for anything. It's healthier both mentally and physically.

6 - "We need skins for clothing"

Not really. Most leather nowadays isn't actual skin. And there are a lot of clothings capable of resisting extreme colds that don't need animal's skins to be made.

7 - The "Arguments Against" start here. "Animals are life".

They are. They may not be as smart as us but that doesn't make them lack any sort of life, existence or soul.

I believe in reincarnation. To me, death is a part of life and there's "life" after death. Yin and Yang. Life and death are two sides of the same coin. When you die, you eventually come back. But here's the trick, you may return as an animal.

If our backpack is full of stones, so many it's disgusting, we return as an animal. Maybe a dog, a turtle or a cockroach. It all depends on the number and weigh of those stones. Maybe our backpack has lots of stones but not that much, not so many. We come back as humans again. What if we emptied half our backpacks before dying? We'll return as humans all the same but we'll have a better life, with a good family, more than enough money and good education, maybe even more things.

If we went through all the trouble, through many, many lives, of emptying our backpacks completely we won't come back. We will be free of the cycle of life and death and we'll live at God's side.

[This are my believes. I share them because it's my point of view, you don't have to agree if you don't want to. Please be respectful as I am of others in my post and let's not turn this thread into a forum bloodbath of hatewords.]

8 - "-killing and animal 'humanely'"

When people talk about killing an animal "humanely" they mean to kill the animal quickly - pain and suffer free. Yes, it can be debated that whether killing an animal is considered to be "humane", as its definately not "humane" for one human to kill another. So is it "humane" for a human to kill an animal?

That is a touchy subject indeed. When is "humanely" the right word for killing an animal without it being the wrong adjective when replacing said animal with a person. I guess killing someone that is suffering and will, ultimately, not recover is one of the possible few situations when humanely applies for humans, therefore for animals too.

9 - Conclusion

I do not miss meat at all. My body absolutely rejects it now. During this first year of vegetarianism I've developed new tastes. That is, I began liking a lot of stuff I didn't before. I've also broaden my horizons when it comes to food and cooking. I've not encountered a single problem with my diet, aside from having to reject a bbq to my dad from time to time (he prepares me an omelette when he solelt cooks meat ) and minor social changes.

I advise becoming a vegetarian for all I said in this post and probably even more but it's only up to you, the reader. For me, it was easy to leave meat because I made a slow and gradual change in my diet until the only meat I had was in sandwiches and the ocassional bbq or Burger King. I know of others that had and still have a VERY hard time leaving meat. It's only up to you and your body, whether both are ready or not, and if you're mentally prepared to leave a habit you've been used to for your whole life. For me it has been a life-changer.

That and my recently acquired new spiritual beliefs.

I ask not to take my post as an offense, just an opinion and a life experience. I am extremely sorry for the lenght of the post and possible grammar and spelling mistakes. I believe this matter is important enough as to take the time to write and read such a lenghty post. You'll still probably get the point of it if you glance through it.

 

[WindowsVistaSucks]

^ pigs are at least as intelligent as cats/dogs

Pigs are actually smarter than dogs. They really just don't look the part. In fact... They're quite smart.

 

[GhostThruster]

@DZerpic: if everyone goes vegetarian, the economy would scew itself (many farms and distributors will go defunct, the greater demand for vegetables would also negatively affect the economy). and then there would be over-population of domestic animals which could impact the environment in all sorts of ways. so in a way, meat eaters like myself are saving the world.

 

[Radicool]

@DZerpic: if everyone goes vegetarian, the economy would scew itself (many farms and distributors will go defunct, the greater demand for vegetables would also negatively affect the economy).

Yes, a change in the demand of food affects people. The economy would change. The supply of vegetables would not cope with the new demand. People are not good at change. It is fearful. People avoid change and can even refuse to face the reality of change. However, in term we accept change.

I'm not saying this change from meat to vegetables is necessary, but it can be done. There is more detail to it, but meat farmers can become plant farmers. There would be preparation before the transition from meat to vegetables. Point being, given you don't blindly make change, it can be done right if you are determined to make it happen.


@ DZerpic, thank you for your post. It was nice to hear a vegetarian's view on the matter.

The video I linked above gives you another reason why not to: Animals are bred in horrible, inhumane conditions (comparing those images to a nazi concentration camp isn't far from the truth, albeit it's a sensible subject.), and they are not killed right away. What happens inside a slaughterhouse is pretty much a torture without the questioning.

I'd like to mention that my entire Dad's side of my family are farmers. They grow corn, crunulla oil and raise sheep. I cannot begin to imagine how animals on other farms are treated, but within our farm, they are treated with respect. Sheep recieve vaccinations to prevent illnesses. If a sheep is sick, the sheep is attended to by a doctor (this is also to ensure no outbreaks occur). There is plenty of food and water. The sheep remain undisturbed unless they are moving paddocks in which we "round up" the sheep. In this process, not a single sheep is touched.

I don't fully understand this, but I think the sheep's tail is cut off, or some skin off the back of their back. I'm not sure which. A lot of people argue against this, but they are very wrong. Flies will breed within the skin in the sheeps back and cause severe pain and eventually death. A life of suffering in other words. Although the operation is painful to the sheep, ironically this process saves the sheep a lot of pain. This also points to the chicken's beaks being cut off in the video. The chicken's beaks are cut off so they don't peck other chickens on accident. This happens in crouded chicken farms. You have to understand that its probebly worse for chicken's peaks to remain. It's about choosing the lesser of two evils. People panic because in the end of the day, an evil was choosen. However, I agree 95% of what I saw in that video was very wrong.

Although we don't see what happens in the slaughterhouse. We sell the sheep once they are fully grown. I thought I'd mention this because not all farmers treat their livestock in a bad way.

 

[Nuclear]

how to we stop growing population, that means stop fucking, and that is fucking imposible.

We are probably worst animals on the plannet, anything what we designh is created to destroy ourself and everything next to us, we lead ourself in apocalypse and when it comes, we will shameless go to church and prey, that is so sad about us.

EDIT: I have never took rock to hit dog, I have never hitted cat or something like that, I really cannot understand such people. Just imagine to u are dog and someone is attacking u with no reason.

2edgy4me

why would a dog or a sheep be less than a human. Because the later has a concious mind is not the right answer.

Why isn't it the right answer? That's ridiculous. Obviously human life is more valuable because humans are thinking and intelligent creatures, and humans are... well, us.

It's very interesting how animal "rights" activists use the idea of thinking objectively to make no distinction between humans and other animals, while the prime reason for treating animals well is the emotional side, and "cold rational" thinking would give us absolutely no reason to value any life.

 

[Edhel-dur]

@DZerpic: if everyone goes vegetarian, the economy would scew itself (many farms and distributors will go defunct, the greater demand for vegetables would also negatively affect the economy). and then there would be over-population of domestic animals which could impact the environment in all sorts of ways. so in a way, meat eaters like myself are saving the world.

If everyone goes vegetarian, the cattle and chicken farms will be replaced by fruit and vegetable farms, is that a better world I ask?

^ pigs are at least as intelligent as cats/dogs

Perhaps, but killing a pig gives you meat, fat and his skin. One kill, three benefits. Killing the cat or the dog means you invite mice and intruders on your territory.

 

[GhostThruster]

If everyone goes vegetarian, the cattle and chicken farms will be replaced by fruit and vegetable farms, is that a better world I ask?

first, some of ur logic; if everyone decides clothing is redundant, every clothing shop will magically turn into a candy shop, and you know all the industries and whatnot arent effected in the slightest nor are people's traditions or anything, because.... its ur logic man! is that a better world i ask?

second, so lets assume that our economies do survive and every single farm on the world manages to fully convert to growing fruit and vegetables. i honestly doubt we can sustain ourselves on vegetables alone, wud be just as bad as if we all decided to go carnivorous. just not enough plantations and also overproduction can lead to land degradation (and we'll need a lot of resources to maintain these plantations, including lots of water, possibly pesticides etc.). also, there will be either a mass extinction or overpopulation of domesticated animals (yeah, farm animals have grown dependent on us, so if we were to let the be free, they would most likely die or fuck like crazy).


killing a dog gives you meat, fat, and fur. also gives you less expenses to care for the dog, less likely hood of catching parasites from a dog, and more time to do things other than walk the dog etc. one kill, 6 benefits. dogs dont scare intruders, not unless theyre german shepherds. dont bother arguing this paragraph, im just trolling about killing dogs.

 

[Zakamutt]

I wonder what dog meat tastes like, would be interesting.

Animals are significantly less energy-efficient than plants when it comes to nutrient content versus energy needed to grow them. I don't necessarily think a gradual switch to vegetarianism would cause any problems.

 

[DZerpic]

@GhostThruster:
1 - To raise farm animals you need lots of green space wich could be, in turn, used for different kinds of plantations. Lots of water are used just to take care of the animals wich could be used for the plantations. So, as I understand it, there Is enough space and resources to change a meat farm to a vegetable farm.

2 - If you don't want to quit on meat then DON'T. I was mostly answering the OP's doubts and giving my POV. I never intended to convince people to think like me. So if you disagree I really don't mind and respect your opinion. I used to live off meat and pizza not so long ago.

@Radicool: I'm sorry, I think I wrote that part wrong. I'm not a native english speaker so it's a bit harder to express my thoughts. With "bred in horrible ways" I meant a section of said video were - if I remember correctly. I really don't wanna watch the video again - pigs are kept in cages so small they can't move an inch.

I know lots of farmers treat their animals with love and respect and that's great, I respect and appreciate it. Again, sorry if you were somehow offended by that remark. It's meaning got lost in a sea of grammar, linguistics and thoughts.

@Nuclear: Of course whether a human life is more valuable is a matter of one's opinion. I explained why I don't think we are more valuable. To me, my dog's soul could turn out to be my future grandson. I believe bodies are but carcasses that hold our souls in this world, and each soul is as valuable as the any other. Souls are separate from bodies and minds and they can possess a cockroach's body as much as a man's. It's all up to karma and God.

But again, that's my opinion. I'm not trying to impose it on you, just explaining my POV. You believe a human's life to be more important because we are capable of thought and I don't mind, I just disagree. As long as you don't cause major harm to an animal or man because of your beliefs, I won't mind.

I'm not a animal's rights activist, btw. And I don't see why rational thought should be cold.

@Edhel-dur: It's actually @GhostThruster too.
You can breed your own vegetables. Of course it takes time and effort but it helps taking a load off the farm's production if you so want to. And caring for and treating your own plants to later see them grow into beautiful things is always nice and well worth the effort.

@GhostThruster, again: It's our fault as the human race to have taken farm animals off their habitats and have eliminated their survival instincts through domestication in the first place. But they shouldn't be abandoned just like that, unless you wanted a completely vegan world. Cows can still give you milk, sheep can still give you their wool and chicken, their eggs. As I said, I do eat milk-derivate food.

You're taking my words and their meanings to an extreme I didn't intend to. I never said the world should be vegan. Much less that it should be a mandatory instant change. As all big changes and revolutions, it'd have to be step by step. Falling to extremes hardly ever gives good results. That's why I try for the "middle point", where there's balance. Yin-Yang. Kill or Pardon a murderer? Punish. Only Meat or only Vegetables?

@Zakamutt: The problem with changing to a vegan diet is finding out how to replace the nutrients and fat animal meat provides. There are many ways to do it but you've got to know them and how to do it correctly. What you need to absorb iron and zinc properly, stuff like that.

 

[Nuclear]

So where do you draw the line then? Do insects count as potential reincarnated humans? Or the countless bacteria everywhere? Better not use deodorant or other sanitizing products.

This is one of the beliefs I really can't understand. Just unbelievable.

 

[GhostThruster]

@DZerpic:
1. thanks for addressing one issue i pointed out by using an assumption of 'it shud be aight'
2. i actually hate people who do this, act as if im the one overreacting. i'm perfectly capable of comprehending a debate thank you, and i have enough intellectual power to know im not going to go vegetarian from the advice of some random on the internet.
3. again, key quote is "if everyone goes vegetarian". you can see it at the beginning of my first post in response to you. of course i know if only a few turn to vegetarianism the world would get along just fine. i dont think doing it slowly could even work though, people will just not be willing to change.

 

[DZerpic]

I'm sorry if you felt attacked or offended by my posts. I never intended to question your intelligence or show myself as a "superior being". When I said you don't have to become a vegan all I'm trying to say is that I'm not trying to convince or fight anyone.

If you don't agree with me I really don't care, so there's no need to fight or debate the veracity of my post and my beliefs.

 

[Zakamutt]

There is some speculation that future food shortages will cause a need for everyone to go vegetarian (might also want to eat PEOPLE! of course) for energy-efficiency reasons. Food for thought?

 

[Radicool]

I know lots of farmers treat their animals with love and respect and that's great, I respect and appreciate it. Again, sorry if you were somehow offended by that remark. It's meaning got lost in a sea of grammar, linguistics and thoughts.

I'm definately not offended. I'm just bringing up a point in case it was not considered in the debate. No worries.

So where do you draw the line then? Do insects count as potential reincarnated humans? Or the countless bacteria everywhere? Better not use deodorant or other sanitizing products.

I'm curious if DZerpic has an answer to this. I know he beleives insects can be reincarnated to humans and vice versa. Does this include ants? I have accidently stepped on ants before, and no offence, but it didn't really worry me. Also, I don't mind cockroaches and spiders given they dont trespass into my house, otherwise I'd probebly kill or flush it down the toilet. Although I do feel bad about unnecessarily killing larger insects like stick insects and cicadas, simply because I think they are "cool".

Also, what about bacteria, fungus, etc? I'm sorry if it's too many questions, you don't have to answer. I just find your point of view interesting because it's unique.

There is some speculation that future food shortages will cause a need for everyone to go vegetarian (might also want to eat PEOPLE! of course) for energy-efficiency reasons. Food for thought?

I have heard something about this. I read somewhere in a New Scientist magazine that we eat too much meat these days and the rising demand for meat can exceed supply. Could be problamatic. But in reality I don't see it happening. Meat seems plenty accessible and prices are affordable (given you dont eat the premium cuts of meat, like $150/kg steak!) But then again, I haven't heard the details. "What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve"

 

[DZerpic]

I'm curious if DZerpic has an answer to this. I know he beleives insects can be reincarnated to humans and vice versa. Does this include ants? I have accidently stepped on ants before, and no offence, but it didn't really worry me. Also, I don't mind cockroaches and spiders given they dont trespass into my house, otherwise I'd probebly kill or flush it down the toilet. Although I do feel bad about unnecessarily killing larger insects like stick insects and cicadas, simply because I think they are "cool".

Also, what about bacteria, fungus, etc? I'm sorry if it's too many questions, you don't have to answer. I just find your point of view interesting because it's unique.

A soul can reincarnate into any insect, a cockroach, an ant, a spider, a mosquito, etc. I try not to kill any bug that comes my way. I often find cockroaches in my house -where I live, the climate is very humid and hot- and I just pick it up with the broom's spade (idk what it's called) and just throw it off the window. It takes more effort than just stepping on it but it's not a big deal. Now, mosquitoes. Oh man! How I hate them! I do my best not to kill them, though.

But of course there's a limit to everything. If you have a plague of termites, kindly ask them to leave. If they don't, you've got no choice but to call the plague terminator (again, idk what it's called). As much as it's better not to kill the insects you've got to also take care of yourself.

As far as I know, there's no problem with bacteria but I'm not positively sure. They aren't animals, they belong to a whole species of their own and so do fungi. The case of the termites applies just the same. If you've got a disease provoked by bacteria, you shouldn't stop treatment and let yourself agonize to death because they "are life".