[JASS] JASS vs. Galaxy Editor

[Bribe]

Time to start a new thread. I got involved discussing the difference between Data Editor and JASS, and I think this specific discussion hasn't been initialized yet. StarCraft 2's new Data Editor seems to be an incredibly advanced GUI.

//This list will be updated if the discussion provides new comparisons.
 
//Data Editor                           JASS
//1. Lots of new features                  Updated extremely rarely
//2. Potential for a minimal bugs          Many bugs are unavoidable
//3. Essentially everything is in GUI      Editing rawcode, creating own functions

For now I skip to #3. I have no interest in using another pre-programmed Graphical User Interface. Using JASS has brought my understanding of programming to a whole new level - I am not going to dumb down my understanding of programming just to use something that is "convenient".

From what I've read, essentially all functions are now available in Data Editor. What this means to the programming world is that there is no need for raw coding in StarCraft 2. What this means to me is that all the fun I have coding JASS from scratch is going to be overwritten by the click-and-done system Data Editor presents.

Why this is bad:

1. The sense of creativity is dumped out for pre-configured controls.
2. No custom functions that you can look at and say "no one has built a function like this before".
3. So far as I know, Data Editor loses the ability to add free-form indentation to your "script".
4. This one is my real problem:

Learning Data Editor instead of rawcode means you can't apply what you've learned to programming languages that help you to actually get a job. Sure you can edit the rawcode in StarCraft 2, but there is no motivation to do it. Why waste your time?

The whole drive behind me learning JASS is that I can learn programming and have fun at the same time. There's nothing more satisfying to me than creating my own parameters and my own variables that I can reference with a myriad of different techniques. JASS truly is an eye-opening experience, while Data Editor seems to cater to the gamers. Essentially, programmers are out of a job because some other programmers swooped in there, first.

 

[PurplePoot]

The data editor lets you do a lot of stuff you could previously do in code (like many projectile-based spells), but that isn't necessarily a bad thing; having to code "move 3d projectile x to point y over time z" 2000 different ways didn't teach me how to program better.

I assume you haven't actually used GEdit yet, in which case I suggest you wait until you do before judging it. I've been working my way through an uberlisk slowly and I like it quite a bit.

 

[Bribe]

That would certainly teach me a lot about math, which is a necessary component in programming. Perhaps you already knew many of the necessary algorithms, but figuring out how a projectile system works is something that would really expand my knowledge of things. I haven't even tapped the projectile realm yet, but I can't wait to do it.

If I had just started out with the Data Editor, I would have missed a key learning opportunity. One of my motivating goals in life is to be able to go back in time 5000 years and be able to re-create at least a little of modern technology. Data Editor heads the learning path in the opposite direction of where I'm trying to go.

 

[PurplePoot]

And if you want to learn to program seriously, pick up a real language and solve some problems.

If you want to learn physics, write a physics engine.

If you want to learn math, read sites like wolfram mathworld, solve problems, and prove theorems.

Don't expect learning to throw itself at you all the time. If you are proactive you will find fun ways to learn what you want while not getting in the way of people who already know how to solve something but just want to get it done for the umpteenth time already.

Speaking of programming, I highly recommend Scheme (DrScheme is a great runtime environment for it) because it will most likely be the only language of its kind that you ever try, and it will give you a very different idea on how to approach problems. Imperative languages are a dime a dozen nowadays, but if you want to further your skill you have to try something different now and then.

How to Design Programs and Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, two excellent textbooks using Scheme, are both available online for free.

 

[Bribe]

Don't expect learning to throw itself at you all the time. If you are proactive you will find fun ways to learn what you want

Sorry, not everyone is gifted in this regard. JASS makes learning fun. Learning, for the sake of learning, is completely pointless.

 

[PurplePoot]

You don't have to be gifted; you just have to be interested. However, with the attitude that learning for the fun of it is pointless, you certainly aren't ahead in this regard.

 

[Bribe]

You have to be gifted to think staring at books for hours is fun in any way.

 

[PurplePoot]

Learning is more than "staring at books for hours a day", regardless of what schools everywhere would have you believe. JASS is a good example of this.

Also, just because someone is good at a subject doesn't mean they love doing it all the time.

 

[Bribe]

Blizzard has relinquished their opportunity to give back to the community some outstanding programming experience many of us WC3 users were able to utilize with JASS. That's my complaint. Modding a game that's already cookie-cut for me in virtually every direction is not how I want to spend my time.

I stopped playing WC3 and started modding it because, essentially, you see the same thing every game. Demon Hunter, Death Knight, Blademaster.

In SC2, you're not going to see awesome things like what we were talking about in the other thread like the difference between actions and conditions.

 

[PurplePoot]

Why not? It has a scripting language too.

If you want to code your projectiles, then code your projectiles. Nobody is stopping you, they are just providing a saner alternative for those of us who don't care because we either can do it already or don't want to.

 

[Bribe]

I'm not talking about modding the StarCraft 2 engine with features it already has, I'm talking about the fact that they are now provided means that creating and understanding them carries no weight like it does in WC3.

Yes, SC2 has a scripting language. So does Microsoft Windows, and look how intelligent that GUI makes people.

 

[PurplePoot]

People don't learn JASS in Warcraft so that they can write good code because other alternatives suck; they just write bad code. I don't see this as a step down in any way.

The people who learn JASS tend to be those that are interested for other reasons (say, as a step to programming, or because it's so easy for them that there's no reason not to) anyways.

 

[Bribe]

I got started on JASS because people kept recommending it on this forum....

But thanks for all of your input, and for your time. SC2 isn't the worst thing in the world, that it is marginally more IQ-savvy than... WoW...or Farmville.

 

[PurplePoot]

I'm surprised, then. Obviously what I said was a generalization and thus doesn't apply 100% of the time, but in my experience our JASS proselytizing goes mostly ignored.

 

[Bribe]

Yeah, no, you'll find that I typically have motives most people never dream of

JASS was the big bad wolf to me, it looks way different than GUI and now I even have a job doing programming, so I am quite thankful for this forum & for Blizzard for coding JASS.

 

[Septimus]

so the gui in galaxy editor offer almost everything? does that mean no longer needed to destroy/remove memory leak just like the gui in WE does?

 

[Bribe]

so the gui in galaxy editor offer almost everything? does that mean no longer needed to destroy/remove memory leak just like the gui in WE does?

Let's just leave it as: all the spells you're doing for your campaign would be a walk in the park.

SC2 is supposed to have a "garbage collector" in its code somewhere that destroys leaks and such, but I (and, as far as I know, everyone else) have no idea how it works or what things will break it.

 

[tagg1080]

Galaxy is a beast.

A.
Beast.


But, it is a little annoying, because I am SO used to War3, that getting it to do what I want it to do is hard. This would be because things are done a different way, therefore the thought process has to be different.

Still working on that..