Issues with Blizzard AI

[Alpha 100 F]

Hey guys,
i have some issues with the blizzard ai of a map i am working on. There are some custom heroes but the rest of the units are up to the latest patch and haven't been changed.
There is a screenshot of the map layout attached to this post so feel free to take a look at it (yellow dots=goldmines, coloured dots=starting location, brown bars=destroyable gates, green path=AIs preferred path)

1. AI players have preferred expanding locations and try to use the same mining place. I already saw an orc building his great hall and suddenly an acolyte came and just placed his haunted goldmine in the same place. Sucks to be orc if your mates steal your mine away from you. Why does that happen? I never had that problem on blizzard maps.

2. It never happened, that BOTH expansions in front of the main base were taken by AIs. The only take one of those mines and most of the time its the first expansion they take. What do i have to change to make them use both?

3. The AI cant destroy the gates (brown bars on the screenie) which separate the village in the center of the map from the rest. Can i somehow teach them to do so or do i as human player have to destroy them first?

4. Most of the time the AIs choose the green path to attack each other. Is that because its the shortest one available?

What i finally want is a map with an AI that is not that predictable. Its somehow boring if i already know that i always can find their second base at the same location.
If you know a guide that would help (sth like how to design a map the AI can use to its best) pls post a link.
BTW: Do you think the advanced melee ai would solve some of my problems? I am willing to use it if its not too hard to fight against. Is there a way to choose at the beginning of the game wether i'd like to fight the blizzard or advanced ai?

If i didnt express myself clearly enough just ask ^^

 

[Binsu]

Are you using a custom AI Script or the original AI? If custom, it might be a problem on how you make the AI Script. If Original AI Script, its either something on your Warcraft is corrupted or its in the map that restricts their acton and it makes them do unusual behavior.

 

[MasterTrainer]

I think you should never use Blizzard's AI with a custom map, or at least, what I know from experience. I may be wrong there, but try creating your own Ai via ai editor.

 

[GreeN!X]

Hmm.. I'm not really an expert in this thing but I'll try to answer some as best as I can.

2. It never happened, that BOTH expansions in front of the main base were taken by AIs. The only take one of those mines and most of the time its the first expansion they take. What do i have to change to make them use both?

I have experienced this too when I tried to create an altered melee map. It's either you have placed the gold mines too close to each other or the creeps guarding these mines are somehow different from each other in some sorts that's why they choose the one they deem weaker. If it's none of these, then I have no idea why this is happening.

3. The AI cant destroy the gates (brown bars on the screenie) which separate the village in the center of the map from the rest. Can i somehow teach them to do so or do i as human player have to destroy them first?

Normal AI's can't really do such a thing because of how they were made. I think triggering it would be a good solution but you could make your own AI script. I think that's what they do with DOTA's AI that's why it's pretty smart.

4. Most of the time the AIs choose the green path to attack each other. Is that because its the shortest one available?

I think so. It's like when you order a unit to move to a far point in the map. They use the shortest possible path to it so yep, I think that's the reason.

What i finally want is a map with an AI that is not that predictable. Its somehow boring if i already know that i always can find their second base at the same location.
If you know a guide that would help (sth like how to design a map the AI can use to its best) pls post a link.

This one is the basic tutorial
http://world-editor-tutorials.thehelper.net/cat_usersubmit.php?view=53937

and I think this one is pretty swell too. Didn't read it though.
http://world-editor-tutorials.thehelper.net/cat_usersubmit.php?view=15516

BTW: Do you think the advanced melee ai would solve some of my problems? I am willing to use it if its not too hard to fight against. Is there a way to choose at the beginning of the game wether i'd like to fight the blizzard or advanced ai?

I don't think the melee AI will cut it. You'll probably have to use several triggers to aid the AI.

You can use a dialog to make the host choose which one she likes. If the host presses the dialog button for the blizz one, then init the Ai then if he presses the other one, init the triggers for it then.

EDIT: I really didn't notice these two who's already commenting. XP

 

[Binsu]

Here is also a lnk of tutorial in AI Editor, you might need this: AI Editor

EDIT: Awww!!! HERA!!! YOU linked my tutorial that I was just about to link.... ;_;

 

[MasterTrainer]

You can also try this: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/jass-ai-scripts-tutorials-280/ai-editor-29314/

 

[Binsu]

You can also try this: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/world-editor-help-zone-98/issues-blizzard-ai-235177/

You just linked this thread itself.

 

[MasterTrainer]

Lol I know but I fixed it now.

 

[Binsu]

Lol I know but I fixed it now.

Looks better =)

 

[MasterTrainer]

If only I knew more about the AI editor, I could've been more help here.

 

[Alpha 100 F]

@ Hell Master & MasterTrainer: I am currently NOT using any modified AI because the only thing that i changed are some of the heroes (without copying them which is really stupid but the map is already some years old and i never reworked that until now) and most of them are new ones. I'm going to reset them anyway and create custom heroes to replace them so that the AI doesnt have any problems using them. Then the only new thing, the AI would have to handle is the terrain. Is that enough kind of custom map to create a new ai?
BTW the human ai prefers the mountain king and he isnt changed at all. Just recognized that while i tested the map tomorrow.

@Hera: I'll try that and make the distance between those bases bigger. Hope that works. Maybe a complete rework on the layout would help. This way i could make it symmetrical and equallize the distance between the main base and the expansions.

Thanks for the tuts! The one posted on hive looks pretty helpful, but I dont know if the AI gets any smarter if i use the AI Editor. Problem is that those Blizzard-guys know way more about how to win a melee game than i do. Is there a kind of template for the ai editor with the settings the standard melee ai is using? Would be super helpful
And do you know if every melee map designed by blizzard has its own ai script or do they use the same cript for every map (except campaign ofc and something like azureTD)

Thanks for your superfast responses ^^

 

[Binsu]

@ Hell Master & MasterTrainer: I am currently NOT using any modified AI because the only thing that i changed are some of the heroes (without copying them which is really stupid but the map is already some years old and i never reworked that until now) and most of them are new ones. I'm going to reset them anyway and create custom heroes to replace them so that the AI doesnt have any problems using them. Then the only new thing, the AI would have to handle is the terrain. Is that enough kind of custom map to create a new ai?
BTW the human ai prefers the mountain king and he isnt changed at all. Just recognized that while i tested the map tomorrow.

@Hera: I'll try that and make the distance between those bases bigger. Hope that works. Maybe a complete rework on the layout would help. This way i could make it symmetrical and equallize the distance between the main base and the expansions.

Thanks for the tuts! The one posted on hive looks pretty helpful, but I dont know if the AI gets any smarter if i use the AI Editor. Problem is that those Blizzard-guys know way more about how to win a melee game than i do. Is there a kind of template for the ai editor with the settings the standard melee ai is using? Would be super helpful
And do you know if every melee map designed by blizzard has its own ai script or do they use the same cript for every map (except campaign ofc and something like azureTD)

Thanks for your superfast responses ^^

No problem and also are you having problem on units and heroes and building not being trained? If yes, maybe when creating AI, you need to include your custom buildings and units so that when melee starts, it will build the custom units, buildings and heroes as indicated by the script. Tho I dont know how to do it. XD

 

[GreeN!X]

They're probably using the same script in every map. If you map is using a lot of custom units, it would probably be better to use some more advanced AIs

 

[MasterTrainer]

You are using some custom units, so have you properly imported the custom unit data?

 

[Alpha 100 F]

Just to get things clear: The map is about 8 years old and was originally based on the IceCrown (12 player) map. The only thing that me and some friends were doing is creating tons of new heroes to choose from. Thats all. It contains the 4 races you can find on every melee map. No single new unit, no new buildings, nothing. Only new heroes. Tons of heroes (You can buy them at the taverns and only a few at your race's altar)
Last year we decided to get a new terrain going because IceCrown was getting boring. Until then everything worked fine. It never happened that 2 different AI-Players built their expansion at the same goldmine. And now, with the new terrain, crazy shit happens

@Hera: It has nothing to do with the creep camps. Just tried that out. Next time i'll get some distance between those mines and check if that helps...

 

[Binsu]

Just to get things clear: The map is about 8 years old and was originally based on the IceCrown (12 player) map. The only thing that me and some friends were doing is creating tons of new heroes to choose from. Thats all. It contains the 4 races you can find on every melee map. No single new unit, no new buildings, nothing. Only new heroes. Tons of heroes (You can buy them at the taverns and only a few at your race's altar)
Last year we decided to get a new terrain going because IceCrown was getting boring. Until then everything worked fine. It never happened that 2 different AI-Players built their expansion at the same goldmine. And now, with the new terrain, crazy shit happens

@Hera: It has nothing to do with the creep camps. Just tried that out. Next time i'll get some distance between those mines and check if that helps...

It must be a problem with the terrain, maybe you putted some gates and such because I do know it quite restricts an AI's action.

 

[MasterTrainer]

If it's the gates that are causing the problem you could fix that with a Unit - Unit enters region trigger.

 

[Binsu]

For example is this event,

Actually, I attempted to make a melee map that has gates and when AI players got to the gate they somehow bug and they are not moving anymore and they are just in their place. Looks like trying to attempt to go to gate...

So I Suggest if this is your exact problem.... when a unit enters region (region must be near the gate), open gate.

 

[MasterTrainer]

There's basically a rising algorithm here, but I'm just going to point it out anyways:

AI is made via AI editor
If bugs are found that can't be fixed, use Trigger Editor instead

 

[Alpha 100 F]

Found another problem: The Undead AI creates a haunted mine but neither sends any workers there nor builds any additional buildings. Maybe its a space problem. And probably the mine isn't "officially" captured if further buildings are missing and therefore other AIs think they can expand there...

I opened the gates. That doesnt really solve those mining and expanding problems but at least the path through the village is used now ^^ thats good

 

[MasterTrainer]

This is going to be my final word of advice: if you don't find any solution to those problems, you'll eventually have to use triggers.

 

[GreeN!X]

Maybe they didn't send any workers because of the existing base there. This seems really weird for me.

Maybe it's really the terrain or you could have something new in your triggers that will interrupt the AI.

 

[Binsu]

Exactly

 

[MasterTrainer]

Or there could also be that something is blocking their paths.

 

[GreeN!X]

From the screenshots the OP provided, that isn't the case. Maybe neo_sluf could help here . X3

 

[Binsu]

Oh yes, for someone that is experienced in making AIs

 

[MasterTrainer]

Okay I have messaged him. Or unless someone has before I did, then that action just became irrelevant.