[Bug] i played it today and here is my report

[andreasaspenberg]

Additional portals provide extra creatures equal to the first portal (in dungeon keeper 2 each additional portal added just a few creatures to the limit)
The dig tool isnt on the pointer when the player deselects something else
The creatures wont go to a different hatchery if the closest is empty (instead choosing to leave)
The payday doesnt seem to exist
Possession have to researched.(in dungeon keeper 1 and 2 it is always there without research)
The dungeon keeper 2 like interface is good however
Hathering of resources used for training is too slow compared to the training costs (seems that the training speed is too fast)
Research is using a menu rather than being automatic (in both dungeon keeper 1 and 2 the research route is fixed)

If you fix those issues and add the missing stuff it will be very good.

 

[Bibendus]

Thanks for the good feedback, however I had to edit your post to make it more readable
Before answering I would like to specify that I'm not going to copy 100% of dungeon keeper but I'm doing some reworks too. I'll quote what I wrote in the project description

This map is freely inspired to Dungeon Keeper 2 but all the game will be transported to the starcraft universe. That means that all DK units, rooms and spells will be converted in SC2 units, giving them similar roles and abilities as they had in the original game.
Some mechanics will be reworked to make the game more modern while others will lack due to some SC2 editor limitations.

Knowing that I'll reply point by point

Additional portals provide extra creatures equal to the first portal (in dungeon keeper 2 each additional portal added just a few creatures to the limit)

Yeah I know, in the future I'll reduce the amount of creatures given by secondary portals

The dig tool isnt on the pointer when the player deselects something else

Due to editor limitations keeper hand and dig tool are separated, the default tool is the keeper hand so that's the reason of this behavior

The creatures wont go to a different hatchery if the closest is empty (instead choosing to leave)

Moving to another hatchery would require more time then actually waiting for feederlings to respawn, I think dungeon keeper had the same behavior.

The payday doesnt seem to exist

Missing feature, it will be done in the future

Possession have to researched.(in dungeon keeper 1 and 2 it is always there without research)

With the new research system I prefer to keep it as a choice for the player

The dungeon keeper 2 like interface is good however

Thanks, I spent a lot of time to remake the whole UI

Gathering of resources used for training is too slow compared to the training costs (seems that the training speed is too fast)

I never had training cost problems, however I agree that training is a bit too fast. I may slow it down in the future.

Research is using a menu rather than being automatic (in both dungeon keeper 1 and 2 the research route is fixed)

That's a game design choice, fixed researches did not allow players to make strategic choices and having all rooms available from the start allowed lame strategies in multiplayer games.
I'm quite happy with the new system!

 

[andreasaspenberg]

with enough creatures, the hatchery cant feed them fast enough so lots of them start leaving. with research as a menu rather than fixed you will alienate dungeon keeper fans. you could however let people vote to choose between fixed research and a research menu. (that should make everybody happy.) you could try to add an options menu that enables people to choose if they want possession as a research topic or from the beginning. you should ask for help with that hand, build tool bug.(i believe that it is possible to fix, but i dont have the skills myself. maybe tank commander would be the right person to ask.)

 

[Trenix]

you could however let people vote to choose between fixed research and a research menu.

I really would like to see this implemented.

 

[Bibendus]

Do you really think that having the possibility of choice on upgrades may alienate dungeon keeper players?
As the project description says, I'm not doing a copycat but I'm taking dungeon keeper 2 and trying to improve it where I think the game design was lacking.

I accept critiques on the system and any suggestion on improving it, but dividing the community in people that want the new system and others that want the old one doesn't seem a good idea.

 

[andreasaspenberg]

it alienates me and i am a big fan of dungeon keeper so if one dungeon keeper player is alienated there could be more. letting people vote however would still only leave 1 project but, it would increase freedom.

 

[Bibendus]

Developing a vote system costs a lot of time in term of programming and balance design (the game must work well with both systems) and my time is scarce and should be focused on more important features like new rooms/creatures or performance improvements.

You already have the maximum freedom now because you can choose what you want to research compared to the old system so I really don't really understand the complaint.

 

[andreasaspenberg]

i prefer a genuine dungeon keeper experience and that includes a fixed research system. you could however get other people to help you with the fixed research system. maybe i could try to create it for you.

 

[LordDz]

Why don't you just play the old game if you want an experience the same as the old game? =/

 

[Trenix]

Do you really think that having the possibility of choice on upgrades may alienate dungeon keeper players?
As the project description says, I'm not doing a copycat but I'm taking dungeon keeper 2 and trying to improve it where I think the game design was lacking.

I accept critiques on the system and any suggestion on improving it, but dividing the community in people that want the new system and others that want the old one doesn't seem a good idea.

You're right, we shouldn't be dividing up the community. However, as much as I try to give the research mechanic a shot, it just doesn't work with dungeon keeper. It seems like you're trying to make dungeon keeper into a game where you have different playing styles, but your playing style has absolutely nothing to do with rooms, spells, or traps, being that every keeper has to manage them equally. None of these features were optional. When you go about picking which room you should research first, eventually people would find out the best and most efficient sequence, where using any other will put you as a disadvantage. Therefore it will become fixed even though that wasn't your intention.

 

[Bibendus]

i prefer a genuine dungeon keeper experience and that includes a fixed research system. you could however get other people to help you with the fixed research system. maybe i could try to create it for you.

I want to improve gameplay and I have no interests in implementing an inferior game mechanic just because it was in the previous game, sorry :|
I may add an option to auto select upgrades for new players but you will always be able to disable it and manually select what you need

You're right, we shouldn't be dividing up the community. However, as much as I try to give the research mechanic a shot, it just doesn't work with dungeon keeper. It seems like you're trying to make dungeon keeper into a game where you have different playing styles, but your playing style has absolutely nothing to do with rooms, spells, or traps, being that every keeper has to manage them equally. None of these features were optional. When you go about picking which room you should research first, eventually people would find out the best and most efficient sequence, where using any other will put you as a disadvantage. Therefore it will become fixed even though that wasn't your intention.

Actually your play style HAS to do with rooms spells and traps because, depending on how you play, you may research one tree faster then the others. You can attract a limited amount of creatures so you can't have both 20 queens and 20 aberrations.
Room research points work differently, they count the overall status of your creatures. To increase that quicker you have to level up your creatures faster and weak creatures like mutalings or zerglings are perfect for this purpose (low cost, fast train, obtained from the beginning of the game).
There won't be the perfect sequence that everyone will follow except if the game is unbalanced, in that case it can be fixed.

 

[Trenix]

Actually your play style HAS to do with rooms spells and traps because, depending on how you play, you may research one tree faster then the others. You can attract a limited amount of creatures so you can't have both 20 queens and 20 aberrations.
Room research points work differently, they count the overall status of your creatures. To increase that quicker you have to level up your creatures faster and weak creatures like mutalings or zerglings are perfect for this purpose (low cost, fast train, obtained from the beginning of the game).
There won't be the perfect sequence that everyone will follow except if the game is unbalanced, in that case it can be fixed.

You're relying heavily on the research system and when you take multiplayer into consideration, I think it's going to be a race. People don't like to be rushed, I'm sure that's part of the reason why StarCraft II is failing. Until you mentioned it, I didn't even know that room research points had anything to do with the amount of creatures you have, their levels, and their happiness. I personally thought that it just went up overtime, as it should. Dungeon keeper isn't and shouldn't be a race. It's a game about strategy, where you manage and organize your dungeon while also microing when is needed.

With your research system you're literally forcing players to get as many creatures as they can, level them up, then push them to research for you as soon as possible. How is this any different than the inferior system in DK where you would throw all your creatures in a library just so you can quickly research all of your spells and rooms? I think DK2 tried to avoid that research system all together by just letting you obtain all the rooms from the beginning, but obviously that didn't work either. Giving us a choice of what rooms we can obtain will not make any of this better, all you're doing is just adding onto a broken system.

I played both games excessively, I've seen all of their errors. This is not a game that should be based on how fast we progress, but rather what we do with the things we have. Rooms should become available overtime and there should be no way of speeding up progression. Some of these rooms are extremely powerful for a keeper and it can leave other keepers behind, having them almost impossible to recover. When you weaken a keeper by stealing their rooms and finding other ways to make their creatures miserable, how will they fight back when their room research points will slow down while the other keeper's will excel?

The casino removes the need of gold, the combat pit allows your creatures to go beyond level 4. These other rooms are just so powerful, that depending on when you're able to obtain them, can mean the whole outcome of the game. These three research points you have are not equal to one another, sorry but there truly isn't different styles of playing the game. Dungeon keeper is entirely based on creatures, while traps and spells are just things on the side. If I invest all my effort into the room research tree, I can guarantee that I'll surprise anyone who didn't. There is no balancing which can fix that.

 

[circuit13]

To: Bibendus

Considering you are the one creating this more or less by yourself, congrats. I am an avid DK1/2 fan & I am not "alienated" in the least by what you've made here. Is it perfect? No; but what is? I have DK2 Gold Ed. Installed on this same laptop.
I am not new to programming or map making in virtually any game, & have prior exp/w nearly every programming language & am well versed in SC, WC3 editors etc. I am fairly new to SC2's though. I'm not interested in ingratiating myself with anyone nor do I disagree on any particular point. That being said, we can argue & gripe all day getting nothing accomplished, or offer useful criticism & ideas.

I do agree that for those that do like the overall design & want some form of upgrade automation, (ie: andreasaspenberg) it might do well to provide that if possible- I am sure there are probably others that will agree. Personally I prefer having the choice what to upgrade, & when. Mind you there is also some truth to what (Trenix) said that it may lead to people trying to exploit the build tree. That all depends on how honorable the player is, & how balanced the tree ends up in the Final version.

(Trenix) You are correct that the game is all about your creatures, & to some extent I agree that it should probably stay that way, However; to say there aren't different styles of playing the game is false @ best. There are different styles & methods to play every game. In the originals, some ppl rushed, others upgraded space heavy, some max'd asap to have Reapers knocking on your door just to name a few.
If each of us had read & perfectly understood instructions on how to cook a soft-boiled egg, it's still a guarantee that each us us would do it a little different. The same goes for those "judging" the egg. For those of us that make music & art we call 'em Creative Liberties.

For instance, lets say Blizzard never made WC3 & FT. The game Genre of AOS & DOTA likely would not even exist yet. (if you don't know- I'm referring to Aeon of Strife & Defense of the Ancients. They are Maps in WC3 but because they introduced completely different gameplay styles & mechanics they created their own Genre, & are now fully sanctioned by the entire gaming industry. Dozens of other companies & games were spawned as a result.)

Overall it is good to pacify your fans, but don't ever make a habit of doing it at the expense of your creativity! (you could always steal a trick from the advertisement industry... remove the game altogether. Your real fans will go out of their way to come out of the woodwork & find you, the haters will move on as soon as they realize nobody's there to listen to them whine. (I'm not referring to any of you specifically, jut ppl as a whole)

Issues I have notices will be posted here:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...after-playing-hive-keeper-20-30-times-244696/

Also if you need help with something, it can never hurt to ask. There are a lot of genuinely helpful people on this & many other SC2 boards.