HDSM Terrain

[Bloody_Demise]

Before you ask, HDSM is short for Helms Deep Style Map, it'll serve purpose until I actually finesse the story line, and can think of a proper name, and such.

I'm not a hard-core terrainer and such, as I don't have any really good maps out, but I've been working on this terrain for awhile, and just thought a few people can help me make it look better, or a few comments would be nice to.

As for learning where to terrain I've looked at a few of HT's screenies and such, and just built this map out of my own ideas and what looked nice.

You will notice some custom doodads and such, but the bulk of the terrain was made using in-game doodads, like rocks and shrubs.

And now on with the show!

If you'd rather me use the attachment system tell me and I'll resize the images, but right now this is just easier for me. (Also the upload system didn't want to accept the images)

Also, I'm not the best with triggers, if you'd be interested in teaching me some JASS, or willing to do stuff yourself or any help at all, it'd be appreciated.

 

[Craka_J]

Helms Deep isn't that bad. Could use some work though. Maybe place statues around and armor/weapon racks.

The cliffs are good though! (The ones made of rock and shrub doodads)

The outskirts of Helms Deep looks pretty plain to me. Definately needs more tile variation.

But hey! Finally a Helms Deep map with good terrain.
~Craka_J

 

[Ivanneth]

Looking good there, mate ^^

Craka, are you saying HernanG's one wasn't good?
... even though it was never finished : /​

Also, bloody, try starting with GUI, it's never betrayed me or anything, I think JASS is just a glorified essay : \​

Like Craka said, outskirts look pretty plain. Try placing diff. tiles, (ie try adding Ashenvale Short Grass or Grassy Dirt [w/e], and Sunken Ruin's Dark Grass) and more trees, and environmental doodads.​

 

[Craka_J]

HernanG's Helms Deep map was never finished or released. Therefor his does not count. ;-)

Hopefully you'll finish this one!
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

As it is, right now I'm only basing the play style off of helms deep, but I'm hoping to variate it with more of a 'defending outer villages' like Ramza's King of Khum'ra focused on, the longer you can hold the outlying villages, the more units you can get and such, also thanks for the tips

I haven't really fooled around with adding other tile sets to the village tile set, I can do that through WEU's map enhancer, correct? Also any tips for doodads to have in the fields?

Also thanks, the cliffs took awhile to do, mostly did all of them in a week, If only the rock texture looked as nice when it was blown up really big

Also I was trying to find some nice small statues to add along the path to the main gate, haven't seen anything that I've liked, and that could match the colour scheme.

Also in the fields, I'm using the dark dirt, regular dirt, and the short grass, with quite a few grass-doodads from someone, I forgot off the top of my head

 

[dofys]

I haven't really fooled around with adding other tile sets to the village tile set, I can do that through WEU's map enhancer, correct?

I think you can do that on the Advanced section of WE.

 

[Ivanneth]

Yes, you can. But there's a limit to tiles, 13 I think. :'(

 

[dofys]

Evil 13! >=(

I suggest not using Cobble Path on the farm area (for an example, the 9th screenshot), instead, use Rough Dirt and just Dirt.

 

[PurgeandFire]

The rocks look really pixelated up close...

I like the models though.

 

[Mor)L(unE]

Nice work on the mountains, the rest is okay.

 

[Ivanneth]

You need a sky, and those trees growing on rocks look weird. That's what I just noticed. (sky only for beginning parts)

 

[Bloody_Demise]

Well, if you look at actual hills, usually you have little weeds, (or shrubs in my map) and the odd tree growing out from between cracks in the rocks, and if you actually look, all the trees are growing from between two or three rocks, or are at the top of a really tall rock, I was looking for some sort of ball of dirt to make it look more realistic and perhaps some shrubs around the base, but I couldn't find any.

 

[Ivanneth]

It looks a bit weird, the contrast: grey to green.

 

[Karzvitch]

I like the cliffs, but I don't like the town or waterfall.

Reasons;

The town is too warcrafty, and just doesn't look good compared to you cliffs.
The waterfall has tons of water pouring out into a puddle. 'Nuff said. ;D

Great job on the cliffs though, really creative and they stand out.

 

[Bloody_Demise]

Thanks again, the cliffs didn't take as long as I thought they would to do, but for trying to blend the rocks into the fields, any suggestions? (I take it that is what you meant from gray to green) also, any tips for the towns then? I'm trying to keep the towns as a main part of the first bit of the game, which is why I made them somewhat warcraft-y, but I tried to add realism to what I could, I don't know if its possible, but in both the towns, there are a well or two, and in all 3 towns there are farms

edit: Ohh you meant the trees on the mountain didn't you? If you look at actual mountains I believe thats what actually happens though, this tree in the middle of somewhere unexpected, quite interesting actually

Also Is there a way to slow down the rate at which a waterfall's animation is played? That might make it look more normal, I tried to shrink the size of the waterfalls, and it doesn't look right, if not, I can just raise that rock a bit, so I can say it goes in
side the mountain or something, I don't know.

Edit2: Tried some new terrain tiles how does this look?

 

[Gilles]

For your waterfall I suggest using only one doodad and just making it really long. For a good tutorial click here.
It has a good waterfall tutorial. It also happens to be an all around good tutorial for terrainers.

 

[Craka_J]

Much better. However you need to add some hills. Also, a good tip to prevent noticable pointy hills is to turn on the grid and make the hills look as smooth as you can.
And what I basicly mean that makes Helms Deep look bad is that it looks empty! No units on the walls, those guys that throw rocks off the top of the gate aren't there, and I can't seem to find where the Theoden's Keep actually is or where his command perch is.
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

Well as I've said the keep is the only real thing I took from helms deep, but I don't think I'll make the gate walkable, as its a pain, and such, also couldn't I just raise and then use smooth? Also for hills should I make them rock-tiled? If so, I need to re-import it

Also thanks for the help guys

 

[Gilles]

Raise and smooth is exactly right. All Craka_J was saying was that you can see pointy hills better with the grid on. I wouldn't make them rock-tiled if they are small. Usually I just make mountains and larger hills with a rock tile.

 

[Craka_J]

Exactly what I meant, Gilles.

If you're too lazy to put effort into your map, I doubt this will be popular. Sure the terrain is decent, well... better than all of the others (Besides HernanG's ) that I've seen in the past, but you're going to have to focus hard on game-play as well. Besides, what is Helms Deep without the protection on the walls? Unwalkable walls would be a major set-back for me IMHO.
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

Oh, all those walls are walkable on, I just haven't really full-heartedly decided on what units I would like to see there, same with heroes, thats what I'm going through now, ran into a snag when trying to import custom spells however

 

[Ivanneth]

Try noising the area, then smoothing it. I do it, 'cause I'm lazy : \

 

[Gilles]

Craka_J nailed it. It's all about the game play. I have played and enjoyed games with poor overall appearance, IMO appearance is just a way of making it just better then it is. I will admit that if the terrain is awful then it really hurts the game, but as long as it's around Blizzard level terrain it shouldn't hurt it or help it. Basically what I'm trying to say is, terrain won't make a good game.

Noise blows harsh. I guess smoothing it looks alright, but I would say if you don't put into it then you don't get out of it. (Sorry for the cliche!)

 

[Craka_J]

Custom spells would be a fantastic addition to your Helms Deep map. What units to put on the wall? Archers primarily. Perhaps some Crossbow-men as well.
I saw in one Helms Deep map that the archers had an ability to switch from using their bows or melee weapons. That'd be a good addition as well.
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

Been thinking about that, also at the same time I've been thinking of how to balance archers, I'm currently leaning towards, fast projectile speed, but no homing, so in mass-rushes archers are effective, but in small raids not as effective, but that isn't very realistic either, the only part that isn't walkable on is the gate, and thats because if you actually look at it, the top is closed off

 

[Gilles]

I like making archers all around worse, but they are cheaper and take less food or something. Archers also own in mobs better then Melee, because they can shoot over each other.

 

[Craka_J]

Ah, a very good idea indeed! I encourage you on to go with that plan.
~Craka_J

 

[Ivanneth]

Try putting in a trigger somewhat like this, and using a unit, like this

• Archer Attack Trigger (Sucky :\)
• Events
• Unit - A unit is attacked [OR] A unit is issued an order targeting a unit
• Conditions
• Unit Type - Unit type of (attacking unit) equals to (Archer) [OR] Unit type of (triggering unit) equals to (Archer)
• Actions
• Unit - Create 01 (Dummy Unit to attack)
• Unit - Issue order (last created unit) to attack-ground near a random spot within range of 200 of (triggering unit [OR] target unit of issued order)

Then, for the dummy removal

• Dummy Removal (Sucky :/)
• Events
• Time - Every (.25 seconds)
• Conditions
• Actions
• Unit Group - Pick every unit of type (Archer) in (playable map area) and remove picked unit

It's not very proof, I know, it kinda even sucks : \

 

[Craka_J]

Better to have something than nothing at all!
Craka_J

 

[Nudl9]

Wow i really like it, very creative mix!
Seems like u got ur own style.
Ur quite on the edge of massing shrubs, dont do that.
Mass shrubs looks horrible, and if ur gonna mass something it gotta be customg grass models!

 

[Craka_J]

Ah yes. Should've mentioned earlier that custom animated grass is your best choice. Some custom grass models need their color to be tinted darker in the Object Editor though in order to actually look good.
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

If you look for every 1 shrub theres 3-5 blades of grass, the main spots where the balance isn't so clear is in the mountains, the grass is so small it doesn't pop out that much, but also grass tends to not grow on mountains if there are shrubs or weeds

As for custom grasses, I'm using Nasrudin's I believe I probably typo'd that, or else a grass model I got on wc3sear.ch, and if I recall B2M had posted it

 

[ghenjis]

Battle.net standards, it's one of the better Hornburgs I've seen.

 

[Craka_J]

Glad to see you're checking out the reality of terrain and studying it. It's a good way to become a pro terrainer. So far, you're doing a very good job. The only skill you're lacking mostly is decorations, and Helms Deep is good proof for it. It's just a bunch of walls and towers pretty much. It's very empty and no flags, statues, debris, etc. placed anywhere. Though, it still looks good none-the-less.

What's a Hornburg? lol
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

In the book people refer to helms deep as the hornburg, or maybe it was just the movie, I don't recall, and for decorations, I know I'm lacking, I actually have a few flags at the gate, but they're not on posts, don't know where I could find more castle/tower-styled flags, and I haven't really been terraining for that long, but the main thing I've been trying to work out is the aesthetics, not so much the realism of things quite yet

 

[Craka_J]

Oh, I thought the Hornburg was the horn that Gimli went to in Helms Deep a bit before the Uruk Hai had temporarily taken over Helms Deep. But you're probably right though. It's been a long time since I read the original Two Towers book by Tolkien.

I guess it would be the best idea to focus your work primarily with the game-play elements, since that's what the game is 80% rated on. Terrain adds on another 20%.
~Craka_J

 

[dofys]

Helm's Deep is just the name of the valley that the fort is situated in, the Hornburg is the keep that the characters in the book were referring to.

 

[Bloody_Demise]

The horn they call the Horn of Helm-Hammerhand or something I forget, I have to re-read the books again sometime, but the original drafts for the battle of helms deep weren't inside the actual fort, it was outside in a field, with two entrences onto a raised hill, they were trying to stall for Theoden to return to them, as he wasn't in the fort yet, but anyways, I'm still having troubles trying to insert these custom spells, and I ant find daelin's tutorial

 

[Craka_J]

Hmm... I'll watch Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers tonight and hopefully gather the needed information and then some to help out and confirm the name of the horn and all that other stuff.
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

The second is the best of all 3 of the movies in my opinion, maybe the book as well, I'm still looking for Daelin's importing custom spells tutorial a link would be nice if anyone else could find me it

 

[Craka_J]

I agree that the second one was the best as well.

And I haven't gotten a chance to watch the entire movie last night due to my Playstation 2 over-heating (Use it as a DvD player lol) so maybe I'll watch the rest tonight.
~Craka_J

 

[Gilles]

Mine has been on for like 4 days, still not overheating. I should shut it off probably. Sorry about the off topic.

 

[Bloody_Demise]

I think theres only 3 of us that actually post in here, I doubt an admin from this section will check it out unless mr. Cracka heeds them, but I've been trying to think of places to add armor/weapon racks, any ideas?

 

[Gilles]

Well probably deeper inside the keep. Not on the top walls.
Are you making an inside? Or all out in the open?

 

[Bloody_Demise]

It's all just outside, so I'll add them along the inner-walls or something, and see how it looks, I have one of each rack in both the towns, don't know why I didn't think of adding them to the keep

 

[Gilles]

What about the knight statue?

 

[Craka_J]

Another thing you can do is make a building, then make it transparent using triggers, showing the details and other stuff inside.

@Gilles: That's what I meant about him placing statues. That first statue they see of, I believe, king theoden.
Theres a new Theoden model at www.wc3campaigns.net and it's really good. I recommend you get it.
~Craka_J

 

[Bloody_Demise]

It was very nice, but if I recall it was actually just a skin, the model was for an unmounted version, and also, I already have a few of the knight-statues at the front gates and in two of the towns if I recall

 

[Gilles]

Maybe when you finish most of the map, ask for a model, I'm sure someone will if it's a good map!

 

[Craka_J]

Yeah usually modellers and skinners agree to help good people with their projects if they are good. Not very common for a pro to help someone on a lowzy map that no one ever plays.
~Craka_J