Gaias Heroes

[EdgeOfChaos]

Hey, I started playing Gaia's a while back, and I want to say it's really well made. The systems implemented in the game are by far the best I've seen in a wc3 game besides maybe TKoK. So, please don't take my criticisms of the game as just flaming, I think there are good and bad things to the game.

My main criticism: the heroes are boring. The heroes are, if I remember right, Squire, Thief, Archer, Wizard, and Cleric. Now, these 5 heroes have been done about 1000 times in warcraft (substituting Warrior for Squire) and I find when I'm playing, I'm not able to get exited about any one of these heroes.

I tried 4 out of the 5 of them (did not try Squire) and I also think the abilities aren't very good. They are balanced and perform fine, but they're not all that interesting of abilities; mainly just point-click damage skills and singletarget heals.

There are some exceptions to this, like the Thief (who I find to be the most fun to play) and occasionally abilities of the other heroes. But for the most part there's not much variety in what the skills do (Wizard is the biggest culprit here, having so many single target magic damage skills.)

Now, the heroes do change once you rank up at level 20 (if I remember right), but the ranked up heroes have the same model and skills as the lower rank hero, and they don't even feel any different to me until I farm enough to afford the expensive extra skills. And even then they feel barely different only.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The basic abilities all serve a certain purpose and are as balanced as they can be.
I don't think having flashy spells with lengthy tooltips would fit the game. I wanted Gaias to be close to a classic RPG experience, so of course you are not going to see classes like "kobold chronomancer" or "demon tattooist".

Advanced class abilities are usually more unique - this is by design. The base class abilities are meant to allow the classes to do their basic class role without compromises.


That being said, I don't get your criticism about all advanced classes feeling the same.

I don't think a Crusader feels the same as a Berserker. I also don't think Druid feels the same as a hunter or a Bishop feels the same as a Monk.
The only two advanced classes that are kind of similar are Bard and Assassin. And even that is debateable.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

They feel the same at first because the advanced skills cost so much I can't but them until much later, though this isn't necessarily a bad things.

In my opinion, weird classes can be bad (by being incomprehensible) but also simple class themes can be bad (by being boring). There's a middle ground where you can have unique basic heroes but not weird heroes, like TKoK's Chaotic Knight or Hydromancer.

Plus, you are playing with the basic heroes for 20 levels, so the basic heroes should keep player's interested as well as the advanced classes.

 

[SHBlade]

Gaias gives me 3 main reasons to enjoy it more than TKoK:
1. Gaias have way more realism.
2. Atmosphere in Gaias is awesome.
3. Also Gaias provides more interesting storyline than TKoK.
(And I love item which display on your character, yes it's simple to implement but it's very good and nice to see)

 

[Jumbo]

Personally I think that all basic classes are alright. The only basic class I think is a little weak is the magician. In almost all circumstances gameplay is simply about using all your damage spells with no thinking. The rare bosses where you have to dispel is of course a slight break from this, but I don't think mages have decently varied gameplay overall. This also goes for the magician advanced classes. Sure, they deal fine damage, but so does bard, assassin, berserker and hunter. They have no stun, no buffs helping party, no tanking capabilities unlike those other classes. What I think the magician classes need is some more tactical possibilities.

For instance, necromancer's Mark of the vampire could be an interesting spell, but the 15% heal on spell damage is a useless joke. It should either be increased to like 30% or simply changed to some other effect. Perhaps making the necro's speciality a managing of hit points and mana would be interesting; giving the necro the ability to drain life from enemies, adding it to his own hit points for the cost of a decent amount of mana or sacrificing a skeleton for a restore to mana. Maybe even a powerful aoe buff "blood sacrifice or something that can only be used when the necro has less than 80% hit points (which again can be achieved by some self-sacrifice spell, or by taking damage from enemies). In short, all this is meant to reshape the necro as an interesting hero with a unique gameplay compared to other classes.

I don't think the sorcerer would need such dramatic changes, but more abilities forcing the player to pay attention is always good. A percentage passive trigger buff giving the sorcerer one instant cast of the opposite element than the spell used usually is. Water = Fire. Shadow = Light. Lightning = Poison. Magic = random element. This is to suddenly turn the possibilities upside down. In game this means: Water globes being used instantly on water elementals for fire daamge, fireball used instantly on firelord for water daamge, etc. But fireball resisted by water elementals.

The bottomline for me is that the status quo for magician advanced classes (and to a lesser extent the basic class) is too static, too much idle channeling of spells and very little action compared to most other classes. With my above mentioned ideas, the class could become more interesting, though I realise that it is a lot of work.

Update:
To make the basic mage class more interesting I thought about adding a special effect to frost nova'ed targets, giving 100% critt chance if the first attack made against them is fire-based.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Hmm that sorcerer idea you had jumbo is cool, except there is no "light" element, only fire, water, poison, lightning, shadow, and magic, so maybe shadow=magic?, Also that sounds like a better talent than a skill, and would require sorcerer getting a shadow spell, and a poison spell, which I personally don't think fit sorcerer, we could however have 2 talents, one in the conjuration tree that gives a chance to instant cast water/fire spells, then one in the invigoration tree than gives a chance to instant cast lightning/magic spells.

 

[Jumbo]

Glad you like it . I suppose what I meant with "light" spells is the magic that deals extra damage to undead like sader crucify.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

@Jumbo I think you misunderstand me. The classes are balanced well, but I find them uninteresting to play as pretty much every RPG out there has Archer, Thief, Warrior, and Mage; those are like the 4 classic RPG heroes. Now, those heroes are perfectly fine to have in a game and can be good for those who like the standard classes, but my problem is that gaia's only has these 4 classes + cleric (who is less common, but still is common). After playing a lot of wc3 rpgs, seeing the same heroes in every single game, especially one with the amount of work and skill put into it as Gaia's, is disheartening.

Yes, you can differentiate into different classes later, but you are a basic class for quite a while (at least for me), and it's really hard for me to get interested by these classes.

I do like your element idea though! That would be really cool.

@SHBlade I don't actually enjoy TKoK because it's boring. They have some hero variety but the game is almost all farming+quests. That can be OK, but the game moves with the pace of a snail unless you have someone power leveling you. This, with the fact that pub TKoK games nearly never have low level people (making you have to solo, which is impossible) ruined that game entirely for me.

I just bring up TKoK because it is maybe the only other RPG with equivalent time and effort put into things like the environment, clean running systems, game length, storyline, etc...
---
Without using the TKoK example, here are some examples of non-weird but unique heroes from (one of) my favorite rpgs (true chaos): Avenger, Arcanist, Cultist.. And some unique heroes from dota (I know it's not an rpg, but it's arguably the best game ever made): Goblin Techies, Pudge, Bloodseeker
Hopefully you see what I mean

 

[Ihazdialup]

The point of these classes is to be extremely basic, I imagine at least, also, I don't quite understand what you're getting at?

Do you want something to spice the classes up?

Do you want to suggest something?

Or are you just simply putting it out there that the classes are overplayed, basic, and uninteresting?

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

Having extremely basic classes is totally fine, the problem is when there are only extremely basic classes for the first large part of the game.

Or are you just simply putting it out there that the classes are overplayed, basic, and uninteresting?

Partly this. I'd also like more basic classes to choose from to spice it up. I am, however, not sure how practical this would be, as there would need to be new items, new specialized classes, new everything for them. I guess I'm just giving feedback to zwiebelchen, he can use this however he wants to, or not at all.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Yeah and part of the problem is doing all of that, the creator only does this as a hobby now, no team, and we're still expecting a couple months in between each release, let alone a complete new set of heroes.

Also there has been a "6th class" discussion thread where people posted ideas, but the idea about a 6th class was scrapped due to the amount of extra work.

I understand what you're saying but the practicality as of now is non-existent, I enjoy that you do show concern for the initial appeal of Gaias though. Also, if there were to be another class, it'd have to fill a certain role, which as of now practically every role has been filled... except y'know the tank/dps/healer all together role that can solo everything.

Maybe Zwieb could add a 3rd basic ability to each class when you first start out that could change when you class up, just a suggestion. Example would be some skill that slightly reduces damage for a duration for squire, but when you class it gets buffed for Crusader and turns into something like thorns aura for Berserker for a slight duration.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

Understandable, but sad as it's kind of a deal-breaker for me. Thanks anyways.

 

[Ihazdialup]

Well, don't stop playing as the classes do get much better, and the encounters much more fun.

 

[SHBlade]

Lvling to lvl 25 is something like 1/4 or 1/3 of the game content so keep playing.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

All "unique" and "interesting" classes I've seen in other games essentially can be broken down to one of the 5 core class pillars of RPGs:
Physical melee damage, physical ranged damage, tank, magical damage, healer.

I just feel I don't need to disguise those class roles and make them look like they are something unique,when in fact they are not. Things like "Hydromancer", "soul eater", "plant hugger" or "chaos exhibitionist" usually end up just being one of these 5 core roles, just with other names, icons and sfx to fool people into thinking they are something special.
In fact, I bet that nobody would complain if the Magician was actually called "Enchanter" or whatever sounds cool. People always tend to read something unique in class ideas that are just optical deviations from the clichés.


About the dull gameplay of the magician: I can agree on that and will try to do something about it for both advanced archetypes. Maybe I'll also add one more basic ability at some point for all base classes.

 

[galactcus]

i think mages need channeling spells for tactics... and zwielb could you change detonating bones? i think it costs too much mana and not deal enough effects for that... think with me 14 for detonating and 25 for summon... doesnot make sense to use that on skel mage because that skel deal much more damage and stay there helping you... if there isnot another heavy meele damage dealler doesnot make sense to use detonating to take off enemy armor... because 1.5xsp is too low i know its a area effect but its too low area, something about 300... and the armor is not so much descreases either... maybe if it stay the same effect but not suicide the skel would be better... think with me if you are in a battle with lots of mobs and suicide every skel you get 1.5xsp power and something about -6 armor for some seconds but you will need more skels so you have to res them... and if you arenot in the darkness talent line you cant do that without corpses or in blood line 50% chance to not kill them... but you still have to summon them again so more 25 for each skel... that's not a good suport spell... maybe something like "reduces 50% of skel life and damage based this lost of life and spellpower" so the vampire mark would heal a little the skels back... the way it is, its not interesting to have that skil... because necro is very dependant from skels...

 

[Jumbo]

galactus, you have some valid points, but please start using periods and commas. It is a pain to read your walls of text.

On topic, what Zwie said is so true. It is laughable to define cleric as "more unique than the other basic classes". Yes, the NAME cleric may not be overused as much as priest or paladin, but the class abilities are indeed very similar to the priest from Wow just to give an example. But! Just because a class isn't revolutionary in creativity it doesn't mean it can't be interesting. The classes in Gaias generally ARE interesting and will become even more so in the future patches. Zwie knows what he is doing, all we need to help with is point out the small mistakes in a larger, well made, picture.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The Detonating bones ability was actually a victim of such intentions to create "a cool unique spell" that deviated from the norm.

I'll revision it in the future and maybe change how it works.

 

[galactcus]

an idea for detonation bone is Bone command in it place... a channel skill for necromancer that inscreases the damage and attack speed of the meele skels and the spell power damage of shadow bolt from mage skel... it lasts for 5 seconds (maybe 5 attacks from each skel with 2.5x(normal damage))

 

[doubtful]

I havent played gaias half a year now but i have to agree that the most fun class is Thief. Simply because there are combinations and required parameters for some skills to be effective.
Tkok indeed has good char builds system but its boring !! Unplayble.

Gaias can become more fun with:
1)less auto-hit skills/spells
2)more skill combinations
3)more skill requirements for other skills to be effective
4)manual control over pets, summons, hirelings. Giving immunities or auto-dodge to summons just to make them more efficient is a minus for the game.
Yes! some classes have to be more difficult to be played. Isnt that awesome? isnt that the challenge some of you whine all the time for?

Now what comes to my mind is that i would like to see druid with more choices of summons and bigger variety in summons stats, skills (passive, active).
Also druid with transformations ?!

Things i mentioned ages ago were:
1)the movement speed of chars to be different. This would also add a unique feel to most classes.
For example i will take 100 as the lowest speed. So..
Cleric and Mage 100 speed
Squire 110 speed
Thief 115 speed
Ranger 120 speed
Classes that will benefit in speed after class change, those that dont benefit stay at the same movement speed as the were.
Zerker from 110 to 117
Monk from 100 to 125
Hunter from 120 to 130

2)the monsters not to be standing at the same exact spot but wondering in a specific area and have random spwans.
The world of Gaias would feel way more alive and challenging.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

All "unique" and "interesting" classes I've seen in other games essentially can be broken down to one of the 5 core class pillars of RPGs:
Physical melee damage, physical ranged damage, tank, magical damage, healer.

I just feel I don't need to disguise those class roles and make them look like they are something unique,when in fact they are not. Things like "Hydromancer", "soul eater", "plant hugger" or "chaos exhibitionist" usually end up just being one of these 5 core roles, just with other names, icons and sfx to fool people into thinking they are something special.
In fact, I bet that nobody would complain if the Magician was actually called "Enchanter" or whatever sounds cool. People always tend to read something unique in class ideas that are just optical deviations from the clichés.


About the dull gameplay of the magician: I can agree on that and will try to do something about it for both advanced archetypes. Maybe I'll also add one more basic ability at some point for all base classes.

Just because they are the same role doesn't mean they aren't unique; there can be two heroes of the same role who play completely differently, the fact you think that they can't is astounding.

Giving a hero new spells, new models, new SFX, and a new name isn't "disguising" it, it's making a new hero because you are changing everything.

Example: bristleback and knight davion do the same role in dota, yet are unique.

You seem to be arguing that boring = good (both with this post and your one about the necro) which is a bit confusing...

(edit)
I guess I must repeat this again. I am not asking for dumb classes like Plant Hugger. You can make a hero that is relatively unique but not dumb.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Giving a hero new spells, new models, new SFX, and a new name isn't "disguising" it, it's making a new hero because you are changing everything.

It doesn't change anything. There is no standard for how a magician works in fantasy styled RPGs. I can make and give him the skills as I see fit. I could give him some wtfroflpwn skills if I wanted to. I could give him a combo point system if I wanted to.
All "cool" ideas could easily be applied to all of the basic classes (and advanced classes) without the need to change the heroes in their optical design. Because there's no rule police that comes to me and says "hey, you are arrested for creating a mage class without fireball!".
The TO post implies that what is bothering is that Gaias has the "standard" heroes Mage, Priest, Warrior, Thief and Archer.
In fact, the TO is kinda ridicolous to mention that the Cleric is the only "unique" class in the game, when in fact, it's just a Priest with a different name. That alone already proves my point. For some reason, people are extremely obsessed with names in fantasy games. Call a warrior a warrior and everyone is upset. I don't get it and I refuse to forfeit to such stupidity.

In fact, going with established standards in naming serves purpose. It's a common strategy used a lot in modern games. Everyone has a general understanding of what a warrior is, without reading any tooltip. Everyone knows that fireball is a ranged damage spell. Everyone knows that dispel magic can be used to remove debuffs. Everyone knows that backstab should be used from behind. In that regard "Thief", "Ranger" or "Magician" is not just a class name. It bears function. It allows people to understand directly what a class is about without reading a manual or help file. That's why so many games use these names. It's just intuitive design.


Most of the basic skills and a lot of the advanced skills are pretty basic. That's by design. Because skills have *purpose*. All skills I designed for Basic and Advanced classes serve a direct purpose for creating class roles and supporting them. Skills that are "cool" or "unique" have no place in the beginning of a game, simply because they usually can't serve that purpose as effectively as the current skills. And then all basic skills also must make sense for both advanced archetypes aswell. Unique skills can and should always be added as advanced skills, where the basic job performance is done so that you can build upon that. It makes no sense to litter the squire class f.ex. with cool damaging abilities when it has nothing to fulfill its class role yet.
The first advanced abilities are also designed the same. They make sure that the advanced class "works" and are absolute basics. Think about Steel Body, for example. Without Steel Body, your monk just doesn't work. Is it a dull ability? Sure, but it has to be there. I can't just magically give a cleric full armor just to compensate for the lack of armor coming from a cleric background.
I can't just add lots of new summons for a druid when he still lacks basic healing spells to perform its role. I can't add debuffs and curses or other cool spells to necromancers when he doesn't even have a summon yet.

That's why with every ability iteration coming in the later updates, spells deviate more and more from the basics. Detonating bones is an example here (despite being highly impractical; I will change that). That's why now I can safely create skills like Spell Mirror, without making the Sorcerer completely underpowered. Because now that the 9 spell limit is exceeded, I can add complimentary skills that serve a highly specialized purpose.


New advanced skills to come will be more sophisticated. But with only limited developement time and ressources, I just have to go sure that all the abilities created cover a lot of different playstyles and are almost always "useful". I can't implement cool synergies and dependencies yet because it would restrict the customization of heroes way too much due to the lack of ability choice right now.
I just can't create 40 different skills for each class to select from because I don't have the time for that. So I have to simplify it for the time being, only making skills that are as generic as possible.

 

[Eagle XI]

ISO-pattern magician:
has fireball. check
has a form of disable. check
uses a mana-bar and burns through it faster than i through vodka. check
refuses to put on something else than robe and wizard hats. check
can join the dark side to become skeletor. check
level of squishyness found to be satisfactory in measure to his killing power. check
his gameplay about vomitting differently colored direct-damage spells in all directions. check

But i agree with the 'going with established standards in naming' part. Gaias being more akin to the old-rpgs that remaint generic in comparison to trying hard to be unique at everything rpgs today was what draw me in at the first place.
One does not simply name a fireball 'Chinchanchuns Fist', color it rainbow then expect me to believe it a different spell, because i can see through the guise, its a 'fireball' in the end.
One can spot traces of this in the editor already. Compare cleanse, slow and freezing attack, they all share the same purpose with a diff. visual and additional side effects attached to make it more interesting.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Just to go sure that everyone's on the same page:

There's a lot more cool or unique skills to come in the future. But it always takes time and effort to make new skills. Remember that just adding a single skill to the game means that I have to code 10 skills, just so that no class is left out. Make it two and it's already 20 new skills to code.

It's not like I can just add 10 more spells for each class overnight. Depending on the complexity of the skills, the amount of work required to code them skyrockets.
Things like Heroic Strike may only take an hour to make, but things like mind-control, which comes with several bug-cases in core game mechanics to catch (how is respawning handled for mind-controlled mobs? How does threat get carried over in case the mind control breaks eventually? How does the AI for mind controlled creatures work? etc.) and thoroughly testing them usually takes days.

 

[Malygos10]

Example: bristleback and knight davion do the same role in dota, yet are unique.

Just a side note dude, bristle and DK don't serve the same purpose. While both are incredibly tanky, DK is also a decent dmg dealer, while bristle is only there to be an unkillable tank that leaves people frustrated.

 

[Malygos10]

ISO-pattern magician:
has fireball. check
has a form of disable. check
uses a mana-bar and burns through it faster than i through vodka. check
refuses to put on something else than robe and wizard hats. check
can join the dark side to become skeletor. check
level of squishyness found to be satisfactory in measure to his killing power. check
his gameplay about vomitting differently colored direct-damage spells in all directions. check

But i agree with the 'going with established standards in naming' part. Gaias being more akin to the old-rpgs that remaint generic in comparison to trying hard to be unique at everything rpgs today was what draw me in at the first place.
One does not simply name a fireball 'Chinchanchuns Fist', color it rainbow then expect me to believe it a different spell, because i can see through the guise, its a 'fireball' in the end.
One can spot traces of this in the editor already. Compare cleanse, slow and freezing attack, they all share the same purpose with a diff. visual and additional side effects attached to make it more interesting.

Exactly! Couldn't agree with you more.

 

[doubtful]

Just to go sure that everyone's on the same page:

There's a lot more cool or unique skills to come in the future. But it always takes time and effort to make new skills. Remember that just adding a single skill to the game means that I have to code 10 skills, just so that no class is left out. Make it two and it's already 20 new skills to code.

It's not like I can just add 10 more spells for each class overnight. Depending on the complexity of the skills, the amount of work required to code them skyrockets.
Things like Heroic Strike may only take an hour to make, but things like mind-control, which comes with several bug-cases in core game mechanics to catch (how is respawning handled for mind-controlled mobs? How does threat get carried over in case the mind control breaks eventually? How does the AI for mind controlled creatures work? etc.) and thoroughly testing them usually takes days.

I understand. I never intend to be ungrateful or pushy, that isnt really my goal and im not in a position to be pushy. I just tend to throw my ideas mostly to inspire.
There are tonz of games out there that can keep someone bushy.

I think its obvious and i shouldnt mention it, but you create a great game.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

Just a side note dude, bristle and DK don't serve the same purpose. While both are incredibly tanky, DK is also a decent dmg dealer, while bristle is only there to be an unkillable tank that leaves people frustrated.

Not really; BB deals incredible damage. When carries attack his back, he launches a quill spray every second and that damage stacks. But also, Nasal Goo has great early-game potential due to the damage reduce mixed with his ultimate; you can get like +150 damage and -3 armor to an enemy, meaning his regular attacks HURT.

You could also compare Lion and Lina; they both have stuns, damage, and a huge damage nuke ulti, and they both do (somewhat) the same role, but they are very different still.
Also centaur, clock.. mort, drow... puck, phoenix... there are a lot of heroes that have similar or same roles, but are vastly different. No hero is named "Archer" or "Magician".

Just to go sure that everyone's on the same page:

There's a lot more cool or unique skills to come in the future. But it always takes time and effort to make new skills. Remember that just adding a single skill to the game means that I have to code 10 skills, just so that no class is left out. Make it two and it's already 20 new skills to code.

It's not like I can just add 10 more spells for each class overnight. Depending on the complexity of the skills, the amount of work required to code them skyrockets.
Things like Heroic Strike may only take an hour to make, but things like mind-control, which comes with several bug-cases in core game mechanics to catch (how is respawning handled for mind-controlled mobs? How does threat get carried over in case the mind control breaks eventually? How does the AI for mind controlled creatures work? etc.) and thoroughly testing them usually takes days.

OK; understandable.

ISO-pattern magician:
has fireball. check
has a form of disable. check
uses a mana-bar and burns through it faster than i through vodka. check
refuses to put on something else than robe and wizard hats. check
can join the dark side to become skeletor. check
level of squishyness found to be satisfactory in measure to his killing power. check
his gameplay about vomitting differently colored direct-damage spells in all directions. check
But i agree with the 'going with established standards in naming' part. Gaias being more akin to the old-rpgs that remaint generic in comparison to trying hard to be unique at everything rpgs today was what draw me in at the first place.
One does not simply name a fireball 'Chinchanchuns Fist', color it rainbow then expect me to believe it a different spell, because i can see through the guise, its a 'fireball' in the end.
One can spot traces of this in the editor already. Compare cleanse, slow and freezing attack, they all share the same purpose with a diff. visual and additional side effects attached to make it more interesting.

Obviously; and that is definitely nor what I am asking for.

 

[galactcus]

zwieb could you change the heal from bishop? i mean flash heal and heal is the same thing... so you will never prefer to use normal heal instead of flash heal... so change it to make the old heal usable either... idk maybe more cooldown on flash heal... or other effect...

 

[Zwiebelchen]

You could also compare Lion and Lina; they both have stuns, damage, and a huge damage nuke ulti, and they both do (somewhat) the same role, but they are very different still.
Also centaur, clock.. mort, drow... puck, phoenix... there are a lot of heroes that have similar or same roles, but are vastly different. No hero is named "Archer" or "Magician".

Are you seriously comparing DOTA heroes to heroes designed for an RPG map?

zwieb could you change the heal from bishop? i mean flash heal and heal is the same thing... so you will never prefer to use normal heal instead of flash heal... so change it to make the old heal usable either... idk maybe more cooldown on flash heal... or other effect...

Heal has a much better heal-to-mana ratio. Also, with sufficient haste rating, one can have almost as fast heals as flash heals - but at a much better cost efficiency.

It's a matter of taste which spell you prefer. I think nobody will use both at the same time and that's perfectly intentional.

 

[Malygos10]

Not really; BB deals incredible damage. When carries attack his back, he launches a quill spray every second and that damage stacks. But also, Nasal Goo has great early-game potential due to the damage reduce mixed with his ultimate; you can get like +150 damage and -3 armor to an enemy, meaning his regular attacks HURT.

You could also compare Lion and Lina; they both have stuns, damage, and a huge damage nuke ulti, and they both do (somewhat) the same role, but they are very different still.
Also centaur, clock.. mort, drow... puck, phoenix... there are a lot of heroes that have similar or same roles, but are vastly different. No hero is named "Archer" or "Magician"

Not at all man. DK is mostly picked because he's a durable carry. While Bristle is able to deal a decent amount of dmg in the early game he is in no way expected to carry the late game. He is picked solely for tanking purposes.

While I agree that lion and lina are somewhat similar they still serve different purposes. Lion is more of a support, with more disables than lina (which are also easier to land), but in good hands he can also be one hell of a ganker. And Lina is more of a nuker/ganker (and with the latest aghanim update she's a perfect counter to magic immune heroes). Also understand that centaur and clock serve the tank/initiator purpose. You can in no way compare them to carries like pa and drow.

See, even in dota the heroes can be broken down into the basic class roles, with only the minor difference being that the "healer" role is substituted by "support", it is a MOBA game after all, not an RPG. Hope that clears things up

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

I forgot to reply to this for a while, but I guess I will again.
@Malygos10, this is exactly my point. While you can classify them as a certain role "tank" or "carry", they are fill certain niches, they aren't just copies of each other with re-named abilities. That's why I find Zweibel's statement that "5 roles = 5 basic heroes" to not be correct.

Creative names for abilities and class / creative model files go a long way. No, this is not disguising what the class really is. Everyone knows what type of class it is if they play it for 1 min. But an archer class doesn't need to be named "Archer", and a magician class doesn't need to be named "Magician".

Malygos seems to like DotA, so I'll go with that example. If icefrog suddenly renamed Sacred Warrior (huskar) to "Berserker", Slayer (lina) to "Fire Mage", Windrunner (Aleria) to "Archer", etc etc for every hero, would you still play it? What if he also renamed the skills, for example "Light Strike Array" to "Fire blast". These names are technically correct and tell you exactly what the hero is, but I'm sure you would find it boring.

Also, I wasn't comparing Clock/Centaur to Mort/Drow, I was comparing Clock to Centaur - and you yourself state that these are similar roles. Both initiators/tanks (in your own words). Yet they are still unique. They have VERY different skills and a very different feel, yet accomplish the similar things in the end.

That's how I feel, more or less, about Gaias heroes. The 5 heroes are the first 5 hero classes any rpg maker thinks of. They are overused and not interesting to see in almost every rpg. Once again, this doesn't mean super weird/gimmick heroes are good either, there is a middle ground.

(P.S. cool, unique spells/heroes don't have to have crazy special effects or gimmicky attacks, imo)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I forgot to reply to this for a while, but I guess I will again.
@Malygos10, this is exactly my point. While you can classify them as a certain role "tank" or "carry", they are fill certain niches, they aren't just copies of each other with re-named abilities. That's why I find Zweibel's statement that "5 roles = 5 basic heroes" to not be correct.

Creative names for abilities and class / creative model files go a long way. No, this is not disguising what the class really is. Everyone knows what type of class it is if they play it for 1 min. But an archer class doesn't need to be named "Archer", and a magician class doesn't need to be named "Magician".

Malygos seems to like DotA, so I'll go with that example. If icefrog suddenly renamed Sacred Warrior (huskar) to "Berserker", Slayer (lina) to "Fire Mage", Windrunner (Aleria) to "Archer", etc etc for every hero, would you still play it?

In fact, if Icefrog would do that, I would finally start playing DOTA, because then I know exactly what gameplay I can expect from a hero.

Descriptive names are important. They provide a shortcut to an overcomplicated learning curve for people that are genre-savvy, but not game-savvy.
And the learning curve for DOTA is pretty much non-existant (if you suck in your first game, everyone will instantly flame you for not knowing jack-everything about the darn game and make sure you'll never play it again).

(P.S. cool, unique spells/heroes don't have to have crazy special effects or gimmicky attacks, imo)

Give me some examples please of simple basic spells that are 'cool' and 'unique'.

 

[TinyTeaser]

Give me some examples please of simple basic spells that are 'cool' and 'unique'.

That Channelled Tornado skill that I think the Naga Queen hero (Correct me if i'm wrong) is pretty cool and unique xD.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

Tried playing Gaea's again, and once again it frustrated me. So if you still care here, I would like to talk more.

Give me some examples please of simple basic spells that are 'cool' and 'unique'.

It's not only about the skill, but also how it synergizes with the rest of their spells, so I'll give an example of a skill set:
1: slow/-armor/stacking/low cd
2: aoe damage/stacking/low cd
3: reduce damage from back/upon taking #damage, casts spell 2
4: ms/attack up when you cast

Quite simple skills, both to understand and to create. They are also original. You might say "But tons of people have done armor reduce/damage/buff before". No popular game had done it like dota, but even if they had, the originality also comes from how the skills fit together. They synergize really nicely and make it feel like a real hero instead of random things thrown together. The hero has low cooldown skills which benefit the ultimate, allowing you to chase with 1/2 and deal huge damage (Damage+ from ult and armor-). Skill 3 allows great tanking; running away from a hero means you take far less, and also deal great damage with #2.

The hero can be played multiple ways. You can build DPS and use the armor reduce and damage from ult to deal damage like a carry. You can build pure HP/armor and watch people suicide chasing you. You can build a mana item to maintain skills 1/2. It's a versatile hero, one that you can use many tactics on making playing the hero again still fun.

Or: if you don't think AoS is comparable to an RPG, here's a hero from TBR.
1: Area damage
2: Stun
3: Damage over time
4: Area heal over time
5: Mana leech (feedback, but adds to your mana)
6: Crit + %damage

Because of TBR's other systems, this hero is probably the most versatile and interesting. You can build with agi, using your attack for primary damage (with critical and trueshot) or you can build it as a mage, abusing skills 1-4 for huge damage and healing. Both are viable builds, and both are incredibly different to play. These skills work nicely together to make a hero who can both solo and team; Stun + heal allows you to regenerate quite a bit of HP while still moving around, #1 is primary source of damage, #3 provides some slight damage during which time you can cast others. Or she can be played as a team hero: you can be a healer, a pure dps, a combat magician, etc.

Compare this to some Gaea's Retaliation heroes.

Magician:
1: Damage (fireball)
2: Damage (magic missile)
3: Dispell. I don't think I used it much, doesn't seem too good
4: Damage (water globes)
5: Sleep with an ice model (essentially; frost cage)
6: ??? (never got Fire Shield)
7: ??? (never got Warmth)
8: Damage I think (Lightning Strike)

4 (or 3 if Lightning does something else) of his spells do the same thing. They have different art (the animations are actually really nice) and stats, but they all do one thing. Any spell synergy? Well, you can freeze someone then nuke the others which is pretty cool, but this is pretty limited. Nothing with the other spells to make it feel like a complete hero's skill set. Maybe there's something in Fire Shield/Warmth that's really cool, but those are lategame skills; for the first 20 levels, it's guaranteed to be like this. There is one single way to play magician: spam abilities on the enemy.

The other classes are marginally better than the Magician. Thief is pretty nice in that his skills work together well (backstab/invis/steal) but this concept has been done in like, half the RPGs on warcraft. VQuest, released like 2005 or something, has a hero with this same combo, as does recently released RPGs like e-tales (2013).

Cleric has a larger variety of skills, but there's still nothing that is new/interesting about them, or that works well with other skills (as far as I've seen)

The short version: I don't enjoy this game as much as others because the heroes seem bland (among other reasons).

That Channelled Tornado skill that I think the Naga Queen hero (Correct me if i'm wrong) is pretty cool and unique xD.

What do you mean? Don't think anyone in DotA has a channeled tornado, besides one of the creeps.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I stopped for a while to take notes on how to properly answer to your post. But then I scored them out as I realized that this game just isn't for everyone.
If this game isn't fun enough for you, that's totally cool. Just move on, life's too short, after all.

 

[kevs926]

this guy wants to combo. go play KR rpg then. bosses done solo because teamwork is pointless

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Because of TBR's other systems, this hero is probably the most versatile and interesting. You can build with agi, using your attack for primary damage (with critical and trueshot) or you can build it as a mage, abusing skills 1-4 for huge damage and healing. Both are viable builds, and both are incredibly different to play. These skills work nicely together to make a hero who can both solo and team; Stun + heal allows you to regenerate quite a bit of HP while still moving around, #1 is primary source of damage, #3 provides some slight damage during which time you can cast others. Or she can be played as a team hero: you can be a healer, a pure dps, a combat magician, etc.

I just selected this as an exception, as I felt I wanted to answer this despite of my above statement.

Let's just take the cleric class as a comparison, shall we?

In Gaias, you can play your cleric in 6(!) different ways.
You can play it as a magical damage dealer, taking the tenets of wrath talent spec, switching to bishop at level 25.
You can play it as a pure group healer, taking tenets of guidance as a bishop.
You can play it as a mixture of support and damage, taking tenets of souls.
You can play it as a pure tank, speccing into endurance as a monk.
You can play it as a melee damage dealer, speccing into martial arts as a monk.
You can play it as a nifty situational hybrid between damage and healing, speccing into Peace of Mind, which allows you to lift the spell restrictions from steel body.

This is all just a single class. And we haven't even been talking about how you can adjust your playstyle just by the various different options of gearing and placing skillpoints. I've seen plenty of Bishops as main healers already, yet a lot of people still play it totally different and select different skills depending on how they like to play the class. There's a lot of people stacking agi and haste for faster casting speed and only take as much sp as they need to top the tank, but there's also some people that stack int and sp primarily to see the big green numbers. And then there's even people playing it as a damage/heal hybrid, relying almost completely on mend and shield alone to keep people alive, spamming attack spells inbetween.

Every class has a total number of 7 spells for the basic class, plus 4 for each advanced class available. As you seem to project everything on the base classes, that means 15 different spells for each class. Of which you can only select 9. With the next update, 3 more per advanced class will be available, making that 21 different spells per class. Now add 3 talent specs per advanced class (or 6 per base) to the mix. Still not enough for you? Well, the skill system is getting a revamp in a week, adding even more diversity to the game.

Saying that the classes don't synergize well or that the spells are uncreative based on the basic spells available at level 1 is just plain ignorant. You miss the big picture as obviously you do not even see that there are way more spells available than what you can initially select. So obviously one would not get all the direct damage spells as a properly specced magician.

Don't blame me if you happen to mistake the learning curve of this game as limitations of playstyle if you barely even left the tutorial area.

 

[sonofjay]

Why compare Gaias to other RPGs when you can just stick to those. If you don't like how Gaias work then just stay away from it. I don't think Zwie will change the classes that many players really adore just to please one person.

Personally I like Gaias classes and their abilities. It works well and doesn't make you Superman that can solo all catastrophe that destiny dropped on you.

I think you can only truly appreciate Gaias if you just invest more time on it. There is just way more in it like probably the most interesting story ever in a Warcraft 3 map and the epicness of the events and it is the real deal that makes me keep playing Gaias (unlike Tkok and GoU's story and events that never really made me interested), the gorgeous terrain and atmosphere that other rpg maps can only dream to have, great systems that you can really appreciate if you ever tried map making. And of course it is still an active project.

I always Solo Gaias cuz I'm lonely and still never feel bored playing it.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

this guy wants to combo. go play KR rpg then. bosses done solo because teamwork is pointless

What are you talking about? I dislike KR RPGs, and I like teamwork RPGs.

Why compare Gaias to other RPGs when you can just stick to those. If you don't like how Gaias work then just stay away from it. I don't think Zwie will change the classes that many players really adore just to please one person.

Personally I like Gaias classes and their abilities. It works well and doesn't make you Superman that can solo all catastrophe that destiny dropped on you.

I think you can only truly appreciate Gaias if you just invest more time on it. There is just way more in it like probably the most interesting story ever in a Warcraft 3 map and the epicness of the events and it is the real deal that makes me keep playing Gaias (unlike Tkok and GoU's story and events that never really made me interested), the gorgeous terrain and atmosphere that other rpg maps can only dream to have, great systems that you can really appreciate if you ever tried map making. And of course it is still an active project.

I always Solo Gaias cuz I'm lonely and still never feel bored playing it.

Most RPGs are pretty bad. Those good ones get boring after a certain amount of time. Gaea's does certain things right which I like (terrain/atmosphere), but imo some things wrong also.

I just selected this as an exception, as I felt I wanted to answer this despite of my above statement.

Let's just take the cleric class as a comparison, shall we?

In Gaias, you can play your cleric in 6(!) different ways.
You can play it as a magical damage dealer, taking the tenets of wrath talent spec, switching to bishop at level 25.
You can play it as a pure group healer, taking tenets of guidance as a bishop.
You can play it as a mixture of support and damage, taking tenets of souls.
You can play it as a pure tank, speccing into endurance as a monk.
You can play it as a melee damage dealer, speccing into martial arts as a monk.
You can play it as a nifty situational hybrid between damage and healing, speccing into Peace of Mind, which allows you to lift the spell restrictions from steel body.

This is all just a single class. And we haven't even been talking about how you can adjust your playstyle just by the various different options of gearing and placing skillpoints. I've seen plenty of Bishops as main healers already, yet a lot of people still play it totally different and select different skills depending on how they like to play the class. There's a lot of people stacking agi and haste for faster casting speed and only take as much sp as they need to top the tank, but there's also some people that stack int and sp primarily to see the big green numbers. And then there's even people playing it as a damage/heal hybrid, relying almost completely on mend and shield alone to keep people alive, spamming attack spells inbetween.

Every class has a total number of 7 spells for the basic class, plus 4 for each advanced class available. As you seem to project everything on the base classes, that means 15 different spells for each class. Of which you can only select 9. With the next update, 3 more per advanced class will be available, making that 21 different spells per class. Now add 3 talent specs per advanced class (or 6 per base) to the mix. Still not enough for you? Well, the skill system is getting a revamp in a week, adding even more diversity to the game.

Saying that the classes don't synergize well or that the spells are uncreative based on the basic spells available at level 1 is just plain ignorant. You miss the big picture as obviously you do not even see that there are way more spells available than what you can initially select. So obviously one would not get all the direct damage spells as a properly specced magician.

Yes, I understand that the classes become different at 21+. But hopefully the beginning of the game would be interesting too...

Don't blame me if you happen to mistake the learning curve of this game as limitations of playstyle if you barely even left the tutorial area.

Quit getting so defensive. I have a 29 hunter and 27 sorcerer from when I played a while back (but then lost when I reinstalled, which is why I started new), which I would say is past the tutorial area. You seem to have misinterpreted the point of this topic. It is not "I played for 5 mins and your entire game sucks", but that the first 20 levels could be a lot more interesting.

 

[marb]

Heal has a much better heal-to-mana ratio.

Heal heals for 5x SP for 9 mana cost, making it heal 0.56x SP per mana.

Flash heals for 3x SP for 5 mana cost, making it heal 0.6x SP per mana.

 

[BoxOfFaith]

The early levels honestly only suck if you're playing alone. However this is by design, and really people should be happy that the game is even possible to solo at low levels for ANY class. Most other RPG's I've tried pretty much instant kill you if you're not with a group of 5+.

I suppose theres something to be said for the lack of skills building on one another. However I think the simplicity of Gaias is what makes it more appealing than other RPG's as well.

Anyhow, its not really something that can be changed without MASSIVE amounts of work and testing. The game is in a really good state for balancing purposes as it is so theres really no need to change things to appease a sort of 'aesthetic' issue.

 

[TooMuch]

Directed at edgeofchaos
Let me see if I can make some things clear here.
First off, the early game starts off as a quest/minion grinds. Which is fine, it gets new players use to the game. Then as you progress, you run into world bosses and hire lvl creeps that makes you realize that this game is harder than it looks. It's no simple hack and slash game, you gotta be smart in what you do. Then once you acquire the quest to enter the first dungeon, you realize you need a team causes normally you can't get past the first mobs or the first boss. So you go back out and continue to lvl and grind. Then you realize that if you can't find a group, you can still Lvl up and experience other early game content instead of being stuck in the low level area. The current content keeps you interested and not stuck anywhere so you can move on to the better parts.
Can the early game have more content so it can be more interesting? Probably, but end game content is way better to exp regardless.
Early game is to teach you the basics and help you get started.

If you find all that boring and uninteresting... Then well that's your opinion. End of story.
Understand that I read your op and all others. You didn't really suggested anything that could have been useful. So it's just an opinion base post right now. Which suggests that you should move on and just ignore every other post others might post. Besides I think Zwieb already destroyed you earlier regarding all this. I'm just wrapping it up with some facts since this seems to be going on. Hopefully no one else replies, cause I wont

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Heal heals for 5x SP for 9 mana cost, making it heal 0.56x SP per mana.

Flash heals for 3x SP for 5 mana cost, making it heal 0.6x SP per mana.

Flash Heal costs 7 mana to cast without the bishop talent.

So that's 0.55 heal/mana vs. 0.42 heal/mana.

 

[marb]

Flash Heal costs 7 mana to cast without the bishop talent.

So that's 0.55 heal/mana vs. 0.42 heal/mana.

Shame on those who didnt pick that talent.

 

[kevs926]

Shame on those who didnt pick that talent.

5/9 vs 3/7

5/7 vs 3/5

heal ratio wins both scenario.

 

[marb]

5/9 vs 3/7

5/7 vs 3/5

heal ratio wins both scenario.

That means there's a bug where if you relearn heal, the talent doesnt apply. You have to re-talent for heal to be 7 mana cost.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

There indeed is a bug with said talent. But it's already fixed in my newest internal build, so you will get this fix along with the other bugfixes at christmas.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

Directed at edgeofchaos
Let me see if I can make some things clear here.
First off, the early game starts off as a quest/minion grinds. Which is fine, it gets new players use to the game. Then as you progress, you run into world bosses and hire lvl creeps that makes you realize that this game is harder than it looks. It's no simple hack and slash game, you gotta be smart in what you do. Then once you acquire the quest to enter the first dungeon, you realize you need a team causes normally you can't get past the first mobs or the first boss. So you go back out and continue to lvl and grind. Then you realize that if you can't find a group, you can still Lvl up and experience other early game content instead of being stuck in the low level area. The current content keeps you interested and not stuck anywhere so you can move on to the better parts.

What is your point? None of this is about early hero abilities and interest of these abilities, which is what I am talking about.

Can the early game have more content so it can be more interesting? Probably, but end game content is way better to exp regardless.
Early game is to teach you the basics and help you get started.

So the early game can "probably" be more interesting. What are you even arguing with me on? I agree, later content is cooler. Once again, I can't see the point here.

If you find all that boring and uninteresting... Then well that's your opinion. End of story.
Understand that I read your op and all others. You didn't really suggested anything that could have been useful. So it's just an opinion base post right now. Which suggests that you should move on and just ignore every other post others might post. Besides I think Zwieb already destroyed you earlier regarding all this. I'm just wrapping it up with some facts since this seems to be going on. Hopefully no one else replies, cause I wont

I'm providing feedback on his game. No kidding it's my opinion, whose else would it be? Opinions are not invalid when discussing a game. Once again, I would like it if you would all stop getting so defensive and whiney when I criticize anything.

 

[satoshikid]

EdgeOfChaos, they're not exactly being defensive per say, but trying to tell you that Zwieb has the final say. And as TooMuch stated, Zwieb had already gave his two cents on your feedback.