Curiosity

[Hakeem]

People need to really learn.

I think the most effective method of teaching is to let curiosity run its course. A timer, designed properly, could help cause curiosity.

 

[Duragon]

A timer, designed properly, would more likely cause laziness and inhibit curiosity. Why look it up when it does the work for you? This is similar to how people can use calculators to solve complex integrals without ever having any clue how to solve them manually. Without the calculator, they have to ask for help and figure it out on their own.

If you really want a timer, could always use one of those free timers that people use for myspace all the time.

 

[Hakeem]

A timer, designed properly, would more likely cause laziness and inhibit curiosity.

If you design it properly to do so. That's why I said design it properly to aid curiosity.

Why look it up when it does the work for you?

Curiosity. "Hey, what does this time zone thing do?"

 

[Duragon]

You're the admin, so I'm going to assume that by starting this discussion, you're endorsing it and don't care that it's entirely off-topic to whether the counter will help the arena or not.

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That said..

If you design it properly to do so. That's why I said design it properly to aid curiosity.

Even if designed to "aid curiosity" as you so vaguely suggest, the general user will still not be curious to find out more if it does all of the work for him. The calculator example I made before is perfectly valid here. Only a very select few will care enough to find out more, and those people are the type of people that would've done so without the counter existing in the first place.

Curiosity. "Hey, what does this time zone thing do?"

See above.

 

[Hakeem]

You're the admin, so I'm going to assume that by starting this discussion, you're endorsing it and don't care that it's entirely off-topic to whether the counter will help the arena or not.

I can always split it if it grows big enough.

Only a very select few will care enough to find out more. and those people are the type of people that would've done so without the counter existing in the first place.

We don't have to worry about those people. It's the person that would have not given it a second thought otherwise that we care about.

The calculator example I made before is perfectly valid here.

Yes, very few people will care to use anything but a calculator for math that they care nothing about, and I don't blame them. Calculus only becomes applicable when taking continuous data over time, in my experience. Time itself is something that many more people will be curious about.

"X days X:XX:XX until X-X-X X:XX:XX GMT"
"What's GMT?"
Of course people familiar with GMT wont wonder what it is, but they're liable to ask what others are.

 

[Duragon]

Time itself is something that many more people will be curios about.

This might be true if you didn't provide them a countdown in the first place. They wouldn't ask "What's GMT?" if you say "It's this long until the contest is over." Since you've told them that, and that was why they needed to know what GMT was, they won't investigate GMT. If you just say "Lasts until X GMT" then users must really delve into it or they risk missing the deadline completely.

It actually serves curiosity better if you don't give them the tools that avert the need to be curious in the first place.

 

[Hakeem]

Missing a deadline is only a problem if you are late.

It actually serves curiosity better if you don't give them the tools that avert the need to be curious in the first place.

People don't like to be forced. They less you force them, the more they will allow their curiosity to explore. "Screw GMT. I have better things to do. (Lie.)" vs. "So that's how long I have. Hey, that isn't the correct time. What's this GMT thing anyway?"

 

[Insincerity]

Missing a deadline is only a problem if you are late.

Pardon the interjection, but how exactly can you miss a deadline without being late?

 

[Duragon]

People don't like to be forced.

I won't argue that, but they learn that way. I can't really think of many people that like going to school, but them being forced to at least forces them into the position where they can learn. There will always be people that outright refuse to learn when put in that situation, though.

I think this really boils down to four kinds of people.

• People that would learn regardless. (We are ignoring these)
• People that learn by choice, and refuse to learn by force. (These people favor your curiosity approach)
• People that learn by force, but choose not to when given the choice. (These people favor my solution)
• People that refuse to learn to matter what. (These are hopeless, so we also ignore them)

I suppose realistically, it is just a matter of opinion. I feel that forcing people into a situation where they can learn will motivate them to learn, you feel that simply presenting the opportunity to learn is enough. Because I don't particularly care to argue opinion, as I find both opinions valid, my participation in this discussion is winding down.

 

[Joss]

Curiosity is often enough to get one interested, but hardly ever enough to keep someone going, especially if the topic is somethign they dislike or would prefer not to go near. Motivation is often the reason for why people continue to do things.

Analogy time!

You have a job. It pays well, and the work is interesting enough. Suddenly, you get promoted, but to a desk clerk. You make more money, but the work is dreadfully dull. Do you quit your job? Most people would say "No," because the paycheck is worth the monotony.

Lets say you're the odd ball that quit the above job. You need new work. This new job offers amazing sights and a chance to travel the world...at a cost to yourself, and bringing far below average pay each year. Only the most interested and diligent will stay in this position, atleast for very long.

Motivation is key. Interest and curiosity play second fiddle to this high-roller.

 

[Intelligent]

If I am forced to learn I will, but I will learn better if not forced. I go to school to learn, not because I'm told to. So you forgot one;

• People that learn by force and/or by choice. (These people favor both approaches)

 

[Hakeem]

Pardon the interjection, but how exactly can you miss a deadline without being late?

I meant that only people that are running late worry about a deadline. If you are finished or near finished a good chunk of time before the deadline, the deadline is of no consequence.

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On types of people, as Intelligent said, the willing to learn don't always refuse when forced. We wouldn't be forcing them or giving them the distinct choice in the original topic, but the concept still applies. I think that someone's willingness and refusal to learn is highly dependent on the subject to be learned. Of course, most people probably tend towards one of the positions on most subjects.

I suppose realistically, it is just a matter of opinion.

Nah, all those types of people exist. The question is, which group is biggest?

I feel that forcing people into a situation where they can learn will motivate them to learn, you feel that simply presenting the opportunity to learn is enough.

I really don't see how forcing causes motivation. The trick is presenting opportunities they don't understand without forcing them in some manner.

If the topic is something they dislike or would prefer not to go near.

Ah, but what makes someone have such an opinion of a topic?

This new job offers amazing sights and a chance to travel the world...at a cost to yourself, and bringing far below average pay each year. Only the most interested and diligent will stay in this position, atleast for very long.

Motivation is key. Interest and curiosity play second fiddle to this high-roller.

I think the real issue there is money. Without money, you are very restricted, so no matter what your curiosity or wished motivation, you just have to have money. Curiosity is a major source of motivation. Survival, it seems, is a higher one. I think it goes: Immediate survival, "long term" survival, resources required, curiosity. Other people can affect if, based on the person. Though, depending on the person, curiosity could even be at the top.

 

[Joss]

...depending on the person...

I believe this line will clear up many opinionations and misconceptions.

In the analogies used, yes, money was the key factor. So, lets take money out of the equation...

You're rather well off. You take in above average pay each year, say, 70,000, and you can afford to splurge often. You have the choice between buying an informational DVD on how to perform business, a nicely packaged kit to get you on your merry way about the business world, for around $200...OR, you can buy the "Get Rich Quick" DVD, for about, oh, say, $40. Which do you buy? Should you be the more motivated person, you take the business DVD. Should you be the less curious and uninterested person, you take the "Get Rich Quick" DVD.

Money isnt factor for you, you're already borderline upper-class, and happy with your rich yet simplistic lifestyle. The only thing could motivate you to buy either one is curiosty. So, the uninterested person buys the less educational and less expensive DVD, while the motivated person buys the informative and logical business package.

Why, and whats the point of this?

Well, its pretty simple: without being forced into learning something worth-while, the less curious and uninterested dont really care. This is where the education system comes in. No matter how crappy or boring it may be, it is what gets us through life (atleast, for the most part), and without that little push, a lot of people wouldn't be very well off at all. And that of course becomes a domino effect; the economy suffers, society suffers, even the media would eventually suffer. But that, of course, goes into a whole new discussion.

 

[Hakeem]

That's more experienced vs. naive, but supposing the scheme was valid...

The education system [...] that little push.

I think 12 years is far too big a push. Sure, young children probably may not learn to count without some sort of "school," but when you start getting into the teens, the "push" factor becomes significantly larger.

 

[Duragon]

If I am forced to learn I will, but I will learn better if not forced. I go to school to learn, not because I'm told to. So you forgot one;

• People that learn by force and/or by choice. (These people favor both approaches)

No, I don't think I forgot those, I just suggested that we are ignoring the person that can and would learn either way. I listed them as follows:

People that would learn regardless. (We are ignoring these)

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Nah, all those types of people exist. The question is, which group is biggest?

In this community? Almost assuredly those who only learn by force. Just looking at the attitudes of the hundreds upon hundreds of GUI users on the site, you could discern that.

I really don't see how forcing causes motivation.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it can't happen. If someone has no choice but to learn something or fail, many times they will learn it in order to get by. They may even go back and thank the person that did it to them later; this is how much of education works, especially in apprenticeship in a trade.

 

[Hakeem]

In this community?

The attitude can vary by subject, and they've already made it thus far to be competing in (or watching, I guess) a competition, so I think the willingness to learn isn't too rare in this context.

If someone has no choice but to learn something or fail, many times they will learn it in order to get by.

In order to get by, yes. I wouldn't consider most of them having learning it, because they don't bother remembering it if they don't have to. It just goes on in ear, onto the exam, and out the other, for most people that don't care about the subject. I think the subjects that subscribe to this best are science and moderate math.

They may even go back and thank the person that did it to them later.

Though not necessarily in the context of knowledge, I have seen this. I think these people are foolish. They cannot see alternate universes to know if it was really necessary. For all we know, they may well have been better off under different circumstances, but aren't because of what they were put through.

This is how much of education works, especially in apprenticeship in a trade.

Maybe. I think we could tend the systems toward pandering to curiosity a lot better than we do currently.

 

[Duragon]

In order to get by, yes. I wouldn't consider most of them having learning it, because they don't bother remembering it if they don't have to. It just goes on in ear, onto the exam, and out the other, for most people that don't care about the subject. I think the subjects that subscribe to this best are science and moderate math.

This assumes that everyone always knows what is best for them, though. In almost all cases, people don't know what is the best thing for them, so people (teachers in many cases) force it onto them, make them learn it, and then later on they are glad that they were forced to do it. You'd be surprised how much you retain if you study something a lot just to get a good grade on that test, I know I always am.

Though not necessarily in the context of knowledge, I have seen this. I think these people are foolish. They cannot see alternate universes to know if it was really necessary. For all we know, they may well have been better off under different circumstances, but aren't because of what they were put through.

And people in the reverse situation could possibly have been better off forced to learn because it had them learn more. The argument goes perfectly legitimately both ways, so there's really no gain from pursuing it on either end.

Maybe. I think we could tend the systems toward pandering to curiosity a lot better than we do currently.

I do agree with this. I find the best teaching methods are a mix of force and curiosity. You poke their curiosity a bit with the introduction and some other details and mix in some other things that the person just needs to know. I've seen it used to tremendous effect.

 

[Hakeem]

You'd be surprised how much you retain if you study something a lot just to get a good grade on that test, I know I always am.

I am the type to retain any and all information, so I can't say that remembering things you didn't want or care to know in the first place is all that common. I want and care to know everything anyway.

The argument goes perfectly legitimately both ways, so there's really no gain from pursuing it on either end.

Exactly. It is foolish to thank anyone for the way this specific universe turned out.

 

[Duragon]

I am the type to retain any and all information, so I can't say that remembering things you didn't want or care to know in the first place is all that common. I want and care to know everything anyway.

That type is so extraordinarily rare, that I somehow doubt you are the perfect human example of a memory sponge. If so, however, that's neat. I'd be curious to know what your experiencing childbirth was like.

 

[Hakeem]

information

It's like riding a bike, you never forget. Even if you forget the time you learned it.

 

[Duragon]

I'm not sure what is like riding a bike, but it's be a bit weird if you were referring to childbirth.