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[Strategy / Risk] Corruption of Sargeras Legacy

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by TheAncient, Oct 1, 2016.

  1. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    Ancient_Doom Presents

    Corruption of Sargeras Legacy
    Created by Shalek, passed on to Ancient_Doom


    Corruption of Sargeras is what you would get if Kodo Tag, hero defense, and LOTR Builder had 20 babies all on one giant map covering a universe with separate planets. Weird, I know. But let's break it down.

    • Evil

    Evil is comprised of seven demon players.

    Their objective is to kill either Sargeras or all of the World Races.

    If all seven main units (Summoner) is captured then they lose. ('Capture' = hp reduced to 0)

    If their main unit (Summoner) is captured it can be freed if your allies destroy the prison gate.

    • Good
    Good is comprised of four World Races and 1 Titan, Sargeras.

    Their combined objective is to hunt down the demons and capture all of the Summoners.

    If Sargeras dies or all the World Races die, then they lose. Demons also can free their Summoners if they break the prison gate.

    With me so far? Great!


    Gameplay can naturally be considered by understanding the races needs, abilities, and strengths against how that works with their objective in a uniquely designed map. Let's begin with the most obvious you will see when you first start the game.


    The map is comprised of separate worlds (islands). Every world has a Well of Eternity (goldmine), and the bigger worlds have three. The only exception is Sargeras's prison world. It is the largest island, is in the middle, and has no gold mines. The World Races start in the four corners of the map with four of the six largest worlds in their possession. There are dozens of uniquely crafted worlds.



    With a map comprised of worlds, moving and how you manage larger armies is naturally an issue and becomes not only a unique quality, but the most important one.

    Evil: Summoners can short-range blink rapidly and pull their units to themselves to move entire armies. This race also has access to units that can fly freely from world to world without the aid of Summoners.

    Note: I want them to eventually be able to create portals with the nature of a waygate for them to have an easier time with extended sieges. But that is later down the road.

    Sargeras: Sargeras can long-range blink on a medium cooldown. He can cross the map in two or three jumps.

    World Races: They have unique units that can short-range blink and plant down portal nexuses. Once a portal is established then any World Race unit with the same skills can mass teleport to them, and of course bring an army.


    Due to the unique nature of their maneuverability, then World Races have the strongest teamwork. They are able to instantly reinforce each other so long as they have a network of portals set up. Sargeras is also able to reach his allies quickly, just not... you know... as fast. :)P) Don't worry; he will eventually get there.

    The Summoner's nature of maneuverability, as well as their unique flying units, leads them to naturally be unpredictable loners and risk takers. It is not unheard of for demons to aid each other, but they don't have that capability near as strongly as their enemy. It takes extra coordination for them to pull it off successfully.


    Another factor that leads towards teamwork, or a lack thereof, is the nature of their economy.

    Evil uses Magic and food. Magic comes from claiming Wells of Eternity. Naturally it is good to be self-sufficient, but this also leads them towards being competitive and establishing separate domains. they don't really want much to do with each other. Food simply means you can't have too big of an army.

    Note: I am thinking of making food for them about how many Corrupted Wells they have, rather than army size. But this is how it is currently.

    Sargeras uses Magic. Unlike the demons, he cannot harvest magic from Wells of Eternity. He must obtain more magic by destroying demons. This makes him a natural hunter, as if his overpowering muscles and masculine body wasn't enough.

    Note: Something I want to add is something called 'worship', where the Mortals can donate Magic to him in ways. But that is later down the road.

    Mortal Races use gold and food. Their economy is a bit more difficult to handle because it is about balance. They obtain gold via farms, and food via capitals, but farms use food just as much as their units do. So you must balance income vs the size of your army. Too much of an income can cripple the size of your army, even if it is more elite. Too many units may mean you will not have the funding to keep it up if you lose it. How you balance it is up to you.

    This makes Mortal Races naturally self-reliant, but also not competitive in land unless you are building together and need every inch of space you can get. They can easily afford to expand slowly and work together.

    Note: Different races will have different ways of obtaining gold, and have a different feel for how it handles food in the future. Some may even share economy with each other.


    Next thing to understand is where each race is good and bad.

    +Stronger units than Mortals
    +Can expand easily and quickly
    +Have more players
    +Summoners are evasive
    -Have to take risks to get their army onto a planet
    -Teamwork does not come too easily
    -Sargeras can squash them
    -The size of their economy is directly proportional to the size of their domain, and so they have weakspots.

    +Strongest unit in the game, literally designed to be OP
    +You are basically Duke Nukem
    +Can cross the map in 2-3 jumps
    -There is just one of you
    -You have no army, no real base, and not really much of an economy to support your hero beyond smashing stuff
    -Picture an elephant trying to smash a horde of Speedy Gonzales, and you get the problem
    -You can easily feel like a babysitter... If said babysitter was Duke Nukem (Is that actually a bad thing?)
    -Your allies can oftentimes be stupid enough to just turtle in...
    +You are still Duke Nukem

    World Races:
    +Incredible teamwork
    +Your babysitter is Duke Nukem
    +Self-reliant, stable economy
    +Can throw armies across the galaxy in the span of three seconds (In our galaxy that would be 1.2e+20 km per hour. Seatbelts?)
    +Your enemy are natural loners and risk-takers
    -Your units are the weakest
    -Have to balance the size of your economy with the size of your army
    -Should be expanding across the galaxy to aid Sargeras and corner the evil to as small a cluster as possible so they can't escape, but the players rarely are that smart

    While this looks complicated, and makes some things look completely OP and other races as just not fun, that's really my problem. They have strengths, they have weaknesses. I want to not have the game be so balanced that its dumb and lacks excitement, but rather for their to be high risk, high reward while at the same time having two solutions to every problem.

    Screenshots and Videos

    Terrain Screenshots

    Not yet.
    Gameplay Screenshots

    None yet.

    Change Log

    Change Log

    Version 0.9.20 public test

    A lot of what I am doing here is largely things aimed at new players. Something I regurally see (when I see this being hosted) is that a newer player is lost, or they completely screw themselves over by building in the center at start as a demon or canceling their first portal or something to successfully screw themselves over for the entire game. Something I also see a lot is that even though this map is designed to allow for a large army, you can never use it. You constantly find 2-5 units fighting while all the others are in the back stuck behind other units or stuck behind terrain.

    This is partially why Voidwalkers are considered OP by some of the better players, because voidwalkers are one of the only units that currently can get into the fight and participate actively. In addition, I see Succubus dominate fights they really shouldn't because they have range against an army that cant get to them. Therefore, a lot of what I am doing is designed to fix this. You build an army, the soldiers should be able to get into the fight instead of standing back sipping tea. Terrain is messy, not only because it keeps half of your army split in every direction, but because you get individual units stuck in the middle of forests for no reason, sargeras regurally finds himself unable to reach his prey entirely because the summoner can hide in small crevices the titan simply cannot
    reach (More of an abuse than strategy due to the lack of counterplay), world races often find themselves having to build around all kinds of mountains and trees at their very START, and demons have such huge buildings on worlds that offer so little space that... simply there are problems.

    Research is scattered across buildings and is disorganized. The relationship between wells and citadels is unclear, esspecially to newbies. The base tower has 1/4 or 1/5 the stats of Sargeras and costs 5g? Looking at the spells, I don't know what they offer and do for me. A lot of information is unclear, and so I am trying to tackle a lot of things while trying to figure out where else there are problems. One thing is food. It seems literally every demon building gives food, and I don't want food to be a concern for them, nor do I want this information to be so confusing in what gives food and doesn't give food and how much food. I want them to be as openly aggressive as they want to be and mass the shit out of things.

    Thing is I rarely ever see mortals do anything more than turtle, and I rarely see demons actively building early armies and going after people. Don't get me wrong, this relationship is expected. Mortals, being weaker, would be afraid, and would turtle up. Demons are aggressive. But they spend so much time going into arcane portal. Arcane Portal to me is something you do if you are already doing well. It is not something you HAVE to do.

    I want demons to be able to see early aggression as a whole strategy of its own, just as much as going into higher tech with heros or middle tech with elites.

    I want demons to be able to see fighting back against Sargeras, or sieging the prison, or going after the mortals, to be just as rewarding in their own ways.

    I want mortals to be able to see an aggressive stance to be rewarding just as much as a defensive one.

    I want Sargeras to be able to say that he can choose between going after demons, or defending his allies, and to be able to have a successful game whichever path he focuses on more.

    Naturally all of this mindsets would have pros and cons. They would have strengths and weaknesses, but that is part of what I want it to be so exciting!

    --A lot of what I put my focus on then revolved around three things:
    1. Making units small enough to get into a fight, look small enough in comparison to the fact that they are meant to be on WORLDS (damn they are like giants if you did a Real life comparison of size here), while still being large enough that the player can easily grab them and see what is going on.

    This may mean the pit lords and Infernals and Sargeras, with all their aoe, are getting a major buff from it. But that is something to be watched.

    2. To fix the terrain to be less screwed up and not give EVERY SINGLE PERSON a handicap from it. It may look pretty, but looking natural and pretty should never damage gameplay, it should only enrich it.

    3. To fix the portal problem so that beginning demons do not completely screw themselves over as easily.

    While I'm at it, you shouldn't even be able to have buildings in the prison... So I'll be ensuring there are multiple things keeping you from doing that.

    --With that done, I am setting out to make things easier on newer players and make the gameplay faster paced, and beginning to move towards a better balance.

    I have no intention of making Corruption of Sargeras completely 100% balanced. Some things should be powerful, but it should also have a weakness. For every problem there should be two solutions. The reward should be equal to the risk. If you make high risk, you should get high reward if it works.

    1. Having more universal movement speeds is easier when dealing with a lot of variety, and giving almost everyone a bit more speed makes faster gameplay.

    Also makes ranged less op.

    2. Setting a lot of the training time to 1 second means you should be more concerned with resource management then having 4-5 barracks using 5 minutes just to get an army out. It also shouldn't take 2 whole minutes just to train one Infernal...

    In the end if you have money, you should be able to damn well use it quickly and easily so you can put more time and focus on mobility and actually using your army. But at the same time, the easier ability to spend that cold hard cash means you need to be wiser about how you balance income with your food and how far you expand.

    It has vastly increased reward to do this, while also increasing the risk some.

    3. decreased hp regen across the board, because things should actually die at some point!

    4. Shifted around the max hp of the demi-hero demon units. Some of them are meant to be tanks and have half the hp of the mages... Naturally I want them to have high hp, but come on. Tanks should be tanky!

    5. Arcane Portal is increased from 250g to 500g.
    All demi-hero costs set to 0.
    All demi-hero time to train set to 1 second.

    This is big, and is meant to make it easier on newer players, people who are a bit down on their luck (or have been stepped on by Sargeras once too many times), while also making the game faster paced and generally easier to manage and understand.

    This means that if you build it, you can instantly get a demi-hero. No more saving up to 250g only to have to save up 550 more for that big bad demon. All the while taking so long that Sargeras can swoop in and crap on it. Also just generally taking so long that you just sit there waiting... and waiting... and not really doing anything. I've seen more experienced players get their demi-hero out quickly and get attacking in the first few minutes, but newer players have to go "so wait... I need to save up MORE?! I only have 3 wells!!"

    That last change is one I really want to do just to make the game more manageable for everyone, increase risk, increase reward, keep it moving, and yes... It may mean buffing the hell out of demons to do it.

    This is something I will be keeping a close eye on. I plan to watch to see just how much of a buff this is for the demons and see if I have to slam them with Sargeras' Nerf gun.

    I should totally give Sargeras a gun item called 'Nerf'... That would be too funny.

    6. I want the demon's first set of units to be more about choice than anything else. You shouldn't go for mass voidwalkers just because they are cheap. Nor succubus.

    I want it to be an intelligent choice based on strength and weakness. I want felstalkers to be good vs sargeras and casters. I want voidwalkers be good vs sargeras and have mobility. I want succubus to be a choice between auto-attack strength and a caster. I want felguard to be solid front-line and still have enough damage to hurt. I also want to come out with a few units in the future to give more options for basic units. But I dont want "spam it because it is cheap" to be an option. so I am setting all basic demon units (not the worker) to 10g.

    The only time "spam it" is a strategy, is when you have summoner units whose very function is to SUMMON a really cheap (meaning free) army. Or the unit is just generally crap. Like skeletons.

    This does mean Sargears is whipping out the Nerf gun to hit Voidwalker and Succubus (mostly succubus), but me giving Voidwalker phase shift should still help keep it as a solid pick.

    Voidwalker getting phase shift means he will be much more solid in a fight, enough to be worth the 10g cost. But with great risk, also means great losses at times. Sargeras can still kill a ton of them in one blow if he aims right.

    7. Moved a few upgrades around on the demon side, and made it so the summoner would be the one making corrupted wells.

    Because this only makes sense... Why have Unstable conbustion on a research building where the research to make it available is specifically NOT? No, rather its on the other reserach building. Yeah. That makes no sense. I think it is meant for 'lore' purposes or something, but that just takes away from gameplay at this point.

    Also the same with the consumer being able to build corrupted wells. They are not associated with making buildings... they mine it. The summoner is the one the player associates with making buildings. So putting it on him, when he already walks up to it so use summon legion, only makes sense.

    8. Redid the way demons handle food.

    This may upset people, and to be fair, it is experimental. A lot of gibberish code was put into how demons handle the number of wells they can have vs the number of citadels they have. At the same time, how demons already handle food is just messed up. Everything makes food. In different amounts. That is not clarity. That's just screwy.

    So in my experiment, I am making it so all demon units cost 0 food, the wells cost 1 food, and citadels/summoner produce the food.

    In reality this will not change gameplay unless demons want to spam 50000 voidwalkers. (Really shouldn't, they are more expensive.) Because the reality is that I have never seen demons actually reach max food. I never have. They don't feel restricted by it, and to be honest, I don't want them to be. I want them to feel openly active whether they have 10 units or 100 units.

    What this WILL do is give more clarity to the demonic income system, and let new players have a better idea of what to do.

    Because players SEE how much food they have.
    They SEE what uses the food.
    they SEE what makes the food.
    Not hard to put 1+1+1 together

    9. Human and orc town halls/great halls now give more food when you upgrade the main building

    this only makes sense...

    10. Removed the pikemen

    The pikemen fits into a position that doesnt really exist, and is never used. I would rather use a different unit for high damage melee types, like a swordsman type

    11. Gave raiders the net ability and with siege attack

    Orcs don't have a solution to proper air. Voidwalkers are hover, so they can be hit by melee. But nether drakes are proper air. There are no proper orcs units to counter that.
    So I had to choose between an air unit, a ranged unit, or giving a unit they already have good functionality. At the same time, I want them to be a solid pick for towers and citadels on the enemy side.

    Since all damage is now 1:1 against everything with a bonus of 20% to 1 thing, then it wont be bad to have raiders mixed in with your army, whereas before they only did 60% damage to anything not fortified

    Now for the specifics------------------------------

    Set the following units collision size from 16 to 5.
    corrupted archer
    Corrupted peasent
    corrupted soldier
    Fel Orc
    Fel Orc Warlord
    Fel Orc Peon
    Fel Orc Grunt
    Fel Stalker

    Set the following units collision size from 16 to 7.
    Corrupted Archmage
    Corrupted Knight
    Far Seer
    Fel Far Seer
    Fel Orc Raider
    Doom Guard
    Nether Dragon

    Set the following units collision size from 30 to 10.
    Eredar Summoner
    Infernal Denizon
    Infernal Juggernaut
    Pit Lord

    Set the following units collision size from 30 to 12.
    Fel Kodo Rider
    kodo Rider

    Set the following units model size to 0.45
    Death Knight
    far seer
    corrupted far seer
    corrupted warlord
    Corrupted Archmage
    Fel Stalker
    Doom Guard
    Fel Stalker

    Set the following units model size to 0.5
    kodo rider
    corrupted kodo rider

    Set all other basic units model size to 0.6
    Set all demi-hero model size to 0.8 approximately

    Set all basic 2-legged units speed to 150.
    Set all basic 4-legged and flying units speed to 250.
    Set all demi-hero demons speed to 200.
    Set Sargeras speed at 200.

    Changed the color of Hakkar a bit to make him disinctive from other felguards
    Changed the model of the Infernal Denizen to something a bit more nightmarish
    Moved the Absorb Magic ability to 3-1/3-1 on the board

    Shortened the delay on Summon Legion from 3 seconds to 1 second

    Increased the range of the felguard by 50
    increased gold cost of voidwalker from 6 to 10g
    gave voidwalker the phaseshift ability

    increased gold cost of succubus from 5 to 10g
    decreased attack speed of succubus from 0.9 to 1

    decreased gold cost of eredar consumer from 10g to 5g

    Set the starting demon portal at 0g from 20g - This to keep from screwing themselves over when they build it in the center or cancel it

    Set the Demon Summoner to be able to build Corrupted Wells, and removed that construction ability from the consumers

    moved unstable conbustion from the furnace to the warlock shrine

    allowed dreadlords to have their attack upgraded just as much as the others

    cut the price of greater demonic citadel from 475 to 120

    Removed the food cost of all demonic units
    Removed food production from all demonic buildings
    Set food production of the citadel to 1
    Set food production of the greater citadel to 2
    set food production of the summoner to 3
    Set the food cost of the corrupted wells to 1

    Redid the Summon Felhound ability so it is easier to manage

    Made the terrain less chaotic and disorganized by compacting some of it and moved it to the sides, so you shouldn't get half your army stuck in it. It also opens the map up a bit more.
    Added a gold mine to -6034.3, -4756.8
    Moved the goldmine to the farthest north-west to a position where it will be less in-the-way.
    Cleared all of the mortal-spawn locations of debree

    Removed ability to miss moving targets or high ground targets
    Set 'miss' damage to 0% from 50%.

    Set building cancel refund to 100% from 75%

    animated dead units can bestow auras - If you animated a dead guy, i dont see why u cant get the full package of what that unit has to offer. isnt that the point of animate dead?
    Set it so that night lasts 1 minute of 'gamedays' - This should create nothing more than a blip on the screen, at most, so they recognize some time has passed. other than that the game should be bright and have good visibility all the time

    set every non-hero or demi-hero unit to 1 hp regen (this esspecially hits the demons with their huge hp regen numbers)
    Note: the sargeras' wardens are left untouched by the hp regen update

    incresed mannoroth's hp regen from 4 to 8
    set all other demon's demi-hero hp regen to 5
    increased Tichondrius's hp from 750 to 950
    increased Hakkar's hp form 800 to 950
    decreased Archimonde's hp from 1350 to 1050
    increased Mannoroth's hp from 950 to 1250
    increased the cost of Arcane Portal from 250 to 500g
    decreased the cost of all demon demi-heros to 0 (from 550, 400, 250, 175, and 175)

    Set the build time of every single unit in the game to 1 second from 2-120 seconds
    Set the Infernal and Infernal Juggernaut build time to 5 from 20

    Increased the mortal income rate from 29 to 30 seconds

    removed the pikemen

    Gave the raiders an autocast net ability

    Piercing does 100% damage to all armor with a 20% bonus to light
    Normal does 100% damage to all armor with a 20% bonus to normal/medium
    Magic does 100% damage to all armor with a 20% bonus to heavy
    Hero does 100% damage to all armor with a 20% bonus to divine
    Chaos does 100% damage to all armor with a 20% bonus to hero
    Siege does 100% damage to all armor with a 20% bonus to fortified

    Version 0.9.215 public test

    There are bugfixes and small changes made to begin laying the groundwork for future changes.

    Including me giving the human soldiers an ability to help shape their identity. Their identity comes down to 4 things: Average private in an army, a sword, a shield, some armor. They are your normal every day soldiers with just enough training to use what they have without killing themselves. Looking at them, considering the shield takes up so much of their body, you would think they would use it? The base defend ability is a formation thing for ONLY if you actually turn it on. I'm sorry, but soldiers arent that dumb that they wouldn't be blocking damage whenever possible from other sources... Such as swords, maces, big balls of fiery death, tentacle monsters, etc.
    They are still weak. but this should help them feel more like a sword and shield military unit that they are. In terms of balance, this will help them a lot against demon units that don't have the most damage. In my eyes, felguard are still stronger, and will be a direct counter in the future, and nether drakes and voidwalkers can still do some damage. I don't want succubus to be useless, so I will be looking into shaping her identity mroe in the future. But something like Felbeast will be kinda useless against hte soldier :p
    If you want to seriously kill soldiers, I would go for pitlords and infernals and damage casters. Because soldiers are a solid pick for front-line fighting and being an iron wall of armor.

    Wait does Demon even have spell caster damage dealers? I will have to look into that.

    Here are the specifics--------------

    Fixed a bug in the code that broke the tutorial and destroyed a goldmine on an entire planet, rendering the planet all but useless.
    Fixed a bug that created multiple goldmines in one location.
    Fixed a bug that caused the Seed of Darkness to not respawn when you cancel the starting Nether Gate. (Despite my efforts to keep players from screwing themselves, the game still insisted on killing the seed till now.)

    Set the Nether Gate to 20g from 0g (There are multiple ones and they were mixed up.)

    Decreased archer damage from 40 per 4 second to 25 per 4 seconds.

    Increased the stats of Mannoroth's Blood Pact:
    0.5 sec cooldown to 50sec cooldown
    .15 sec duration to 15 sec duration

    Gave the Corrupted Wells of Eternity the ability to train their own eredar consumers. (I am thinking of making it so the Nether Gate cannot make consumers. I want the gate to be associated with military. Not sure, I would like to know people's thoughts about it.)

    Gave the human soldiers a new ability!
    Has a 70% chance to reduce attack damage by 5.

    Version 0.9.217 public test

    The incredibly tedious tooltips! One of the biggest problems, along with balance, is clarity. The information is unclear on a lot of things and this applies in two big areas: confusing identity and a lack of information. While I am slowly working on the identity issue with buildings, units, and races as a whole, I also need to fix the information provided to players. This is done mostly through tooltips. Due to that, it is easy. But at the same time it is incredibly tedious, time consuming, and is something mapmakers tend to avoid doing because it feels so dumb and insigifncant. But with that said, it is still important. Not only for information, but psychology. Its an actual psychological impact that red colors naturally make you agressive, blue makes you think long-term, and yellow makes you root for the little guy. As such as part of me updating all the tooltips, I will be creating a theme with each team. Evil is red, mortals are blue, and sargeras is yellow, at least as far as tooltips go. This should hopefully encourage a proper mindset. Although if this only results in mortals turtling further, then IM MAKING THEM RED TOO! Red for everybody!

    updated tooltips for the following units:

    With these two units having updated tooltips, people should be able to tell me how it is.

    As I saw that having a portal ability was in such high demand, and I think it is actually a good way of encouraging demonic offensiveness, then I have made it.

    Chevalier made portals with the ability to self-destruct. I won't be doing that. They lose power and eventually self-destruct on their own, but not when you tell it to. That, to me, takes the risk out of the reward when it should work both ways.

    Summoner's new ability:
    Open Portal -
    60 sec cooldown
    60 sec duration

    This spell creates two waygate portals. One on the destination, and the other on the caster. You can then shove things into it.

    The spell does not summon portals into mountains and giant rocks or in the ocean/nether, but it DOES summon them into trees if you aim it there, rendering it useless at times, so be careful where you aim it and where you are standing when you cast it. You will want your units to be able to reach it.

    i have also been looking at giving more units a clear identity.

    Felguard has a new ability:
    Reduces armor of the unit it attacks by 3

    Reduced attack speed from 1 to 1.25

    This ability should give it more identity as a solid front-line unit with an offensive tone. It wants to kill stuff. It is not an attack-speed based unit, but rather one based around strong hits. It doesn't want its damage to be shrugged off easily. It wants to actually hurt! He should make up the bulk of your army with his high base stats for a low cost unit, if you are going to for quantity.In hard numbers this can actually be considered a mild nerf to mild buff. Because the amount of damage reduction 3 armor gives ranges from 6 to 16%, and his attack speed has been reduced by 25% to compensate. Yet in turn the other demons also can hit the unit harder. So 1v1, its a mild nerf. 2v1 its a mild buff.

    Hits harder, but less often. Allows allies to hit harder too.

    Felhound has been modified:
    devour magic-
    Devour magic now explodes 5 mana on attack (from 2)
    Devour magic now deals 5 damage per mana exploded (from 1)

    Removed stone skin

    Felhound collision size reduced from 5 to 3
    Felhound attack speed reduced from 1 to 1.75
    Felhound attack damage increased from 8-12 to 12-15

    Felhound, I want to have a clear identity as a mana hunter, an assassin. you see something with mana, you go after it. You burn it alive. You tear it apart. What I have done here is technically a buff because if you see something with mana, you can squirm a squad of felhounds through stuff and after it. You can pack a bunch of felhounds around 1 unit.
    In a lot of ways this can be considered a buff. Its damage looks to be 5dps against normal targets, but against targets with mana it deals a total of 30 per hit. Basically it hurts a lot.

    The risk is that Felhounds are squishy. Really squishy. Anything not mage related can kill a felhound 1 on 1. Might be a bit close, but in terms of raw power against non-mana targets, felhounds will fall behind. This is why I reduced the collision in half, so that you can get to what you want.
    At the same time, trying to squeeze a bunch of felhounds THROUGH an enemy army to reach the sweet sweet mana may end up with a bunch of them dieing, or having their health down.
    Whether this risk and reward is enough, I will have to see. I don't want them to be considered utterly useless on the front lines either, you can squeeze a bunch of felhounds into the frontlines to help your army. They just need a clear identity as an assassin.

    The biggest concern is Sargeras. Sargeras is an odd race, as he can range wildly from OP to useless. He already kills felhounds easily, but the increase in damage may be too much against him. To compensate, I am thinking of removing the magic immunity. Thinking about it anyway. Just like they deal a lot more damage to him now, he should be able to deal more to them. It is one of the things I will specifically be looking at in the future.

    Dreadlords have been changed:

    Removed Summon Infernal

    Added Raise Dead-
    Summons 2 skeletons every 8 seconds

    Added Voidwalk (windwalk)- (work in progress, so if it isn't added yet, it will be soon.)
    Allows the Dreadlord to be invisible for 15 seconds on a 12 sec cd.

    The identity of the Dreadlord is, currently, an expensive bad front line unit that summons a bunch of infernals (which is OP) and uses corrupt to 1-hit-ko enemy units and gain an enemy unit in the process, all while being much too big to actually get in there and do something. The default result is that they can't use corrupt because they can't get in, they are easily smashed by Sargeras or anything that can get to them, and about all they can do is stand in the back throwing infernals like softballs. Suffice to say thats not good for multiple reasons. Due to the Infernals, a good dreadlord is stupidily good. (a 125 cost value summon from a 55 cost unit? Really?) While a bad dreadlord is utterly useless. (A 55 cost unit that can't really get into a fight, has horrible stats, and is practically 1-shot by Sargeras or anything ranged.) While I can appreciate the idea of a skill-based unit that can range from good to bad depending on how you use him, this is too far in both extremes. At the same time, his identity is that of a summoner who summons units twice as big as himself. That just becomes an exploit to cheap-as-hell mass infernals!

    So I am refining the dreadlord identity. The dreadlord, in lore, is that of an agent. They are skilled in necromancy magic and are often lurking in dark corners and are assassins. That is also the image I want to keep intact because that gives the one unit a great deal of strength through magic and options. They can be assassins (using corrupt or voidwalk), they can be sneaky to either get in or get out, or both (using voidwalk), and they can be a good support for the army in a fight from the backline (raising the dead to bolster your frontline or corrupt to do the same from behind enemy lines). Each of these abilities are good, and can be used to make him a very adaptive unit. Adaptability combined with sneakiness is, in and of itself, a very strong identity to have. It means you have to think, you have to have a plan. That is the identity of the Dreadlord. Not a good unit in stats, but in the hands of someone with a plan, can sneak into worlds and sow chaos.

    succubus has a new ability:
    Converts an enemy unit to your side for a few seconds. (Only works on units, not heros or buildings.)

    Succubus, to me, fits into a very unusual place. Ranged, yes. Damage dealer? No she doesn't strike me as a damage dealer or assassin type. After considering her, her lore, and the position I want her to be in, I have decided on a controlling mage. She controls the enemy. To this end she has curse, which is on autocast and reduces a fair number of good stats for the enemy, and now charm. Now, there is something to be understood in the difference between what you expect charm to do and what it actually does. Charm is usually done to steal an enemy unit, causing you a 2 for 1 trade in card terms. You kill an enemy unit while gain one. Its a good trade. However the way my charm works is that it is very VERY temporary. It is only long enough for the unit to stop attacking you, to attack things around it, for the enemy to possibly attack it, and to keep your enemy from using that unit for a few seconds. It is like a more lethal version of hex. It lasts only a short time. Yet, if you use it right, it can give you the control of the enemy unit you need to make that difference matter, esspecially if used on the correct unit. Now, I can imagine this spell can be used to be absolutely OP in the right hands. It can be stupidily good, esspecially as easy as Succubus is to mass. To that end, it costs so much mana that she can't do much else if you want to go that route with her.

    I think that this spell could be exciting for both sides. Because the person using it has a brief window to take control of an enemy unit, while the mortal player understands that it is only for a brief few seconds and unlike Hex, this ability can have a lot more to it with a much larger degree of skill involved.

    One thing that would be really interesting to see is perhaps charming an enemy Orc Warlord, immediately having him cast Roar for your side, and telling him to kill a shaman for the brief time you have him. Or charming an entire squad of paladins rapidly, reviving your own stuff, and letting them go. What you do with it is up to the demon player, and I look forward to seeing what kind of stuff they can come up with. Who knows, they might surprise me.

    Succubus attack speed has been increased to 1.75 from 1
    Succubus attack damage has been increased from 6-8 to 9-15

    This change in damage should allow her to feel less like a straight damage dealer, so you rely more on her control, while still allowing her to be useful.

    Infernal has a new ability:
    Planetary Entry:
    Basically blink... But it looks cool, so it still feels like you are summoning an infernal.

    Infernal has a very clear identity already, but is often considered a bit differentely. In lore, the Infernal is constructed somewhere and then thrown onto a planet later. People tend to associate infernals with a summon unit more than an areal drop, and I want to shift it both toward a more realistic way, a fair way (so you don't have a 55 cost unit summoning a 125 cost unit every minute...), and which gives the infernal something few other units can have: Self=reliance. All units, except for the Voidwalker and Nether drake, must rely on something else to move. The infernal doesn't need that. They are so big that I want them to not have to rely on others to do what you gotta do.

    But more than that, I want them to have a stronger identy as an ODST. If you know Halo, then ODST means Orbital Drop Shock Trooper. Think Mandalorians. Think halo ODST. Think the Master chief. THINK BADASS!! The Infernal is a unit that I want to have an identity that you are gonna just throw it into the middle of the enemy army or base, and just let it sow all KINDS of chaos and mayhem!

    Hell, I might just play demon for the sheer joy of making a squad of these babies and just throwing them at someone. Forget the rest of the demonic invasion! I got what I need right here!

    The only unfortunate thing about them is that unless you specifically use Summon Legion or overwhelm the enemy, odds are they going to die.


    Archer has a new ability:
    The unit has a 10% chance to crit for 2x.

    Archer hp from 300 to 125.
    Archer attack speed from 4 to 2 seconds.

    The archer is in an odd place for me. Yes, she is supposed to deal damage. Yes, she is supposed to be ranged. But at the last time I checked she had the greatest hp/damage value for her cost of any unit in the game. I will be toning her stats down as needed, as people play the game and I see how much of a doozy she is, but this ability in her kit should help make clear the fact that she is supposed to be a ranged dps.

    decreased hp of corrupted tower to 350 from 1500
    decreased attack of corrupted tower to 10 from 40
    decreased attack speed of corrupted tower to 1 from .9

    I found that demons have a tendency to actually take turrets from humans. The corrupted towers are much stronger, resulting in a kind of "plague" that humans simply cnanot deal with. So I am nerfing it to be equal to normal human turrets.
    I plan to completely remove that ability to take buildings, but that will be a bit later once I figure out how the mechanics of that particular skill works. I am open to people having a lot of different strategies, but you shouldn't feel that your own base will turn on you. One of the mindsets of a base is security. You should feel most secure in a base, not the most vulnerable.

    Another problem found is the orc's innate lack of anti-air. I have made a change in turn.
    Raider has a new ability!
    The unit will automatically pull air units to the ground when it goes to attack them.

    I want the horde to stay feeling like a front-line race with a lot of 'CHAAAAAAAAAARGE' feel. Much like the Orcs of Warhammer40k. Ranged is not their speciality. So choosing between ranged units and giving one of them more functionality, I went with this route. The skill is completely automatic, so you don't need to worry about casting.

    Flamestrike damage full damage interval down from 1.5 to 1

    Flamestrike is a bit of a difficult spell right now to figure out. There are a lot of numbers and an entire equation to its damage. Hopefully decreasing the number that I did will manage what I want.
    The spell simply does too much damage.

    Farms can no longer upgrade into Plantations
    Farms are a bit bigger visually, but this will have no impact on gameplay.

    Mortal default income per 30 is 30g. (The equation specifically is 30+(farms*1))

    I do this for a few reasons.
    1. Mortals need a general buff to fund an actual army.
    2. Mortal income is hard to come by, and they are practically crippled by it unless they are lucky enough to be given 10 minutes of free time.
    3. Farm income, to me, should supplement your income. Where you have a choice between 'okay, do i stick with the default and get more elites? Or do I buff my income a bit more and have less elites?" But to spend half of your food supply JUST to get your income to the most basic level necessary is by definition: crippling.
    4. This is the first step toward me redoing how Mortals start the game. There will be a few more steps before I can get it where I want, and allow people to choose races and allow me to give more racial options.

    Priest and Shaman have a lot removed, but the Dimensional Traveler has been added to both Orcs and Humans:
    1. Astral Walk removed from Priest and Shaman
    2. Teleport removed from Priest and Shaman
    3. Portal construction removed from Priest and Shaman
    4. All of that has been put into the new unit: The Dimensional Traveler
    5. The dimensional traveler can be built at any townhall/greathall variant.

    The reason for this is, again, identity, but also more specifically a seperation of roles. The role of a priest is part healer, part cleanser, and part 'dimensional traveler'. Shaman is the exact same. I want both the Priest and Shaman to have the identities of a priest and a shaman, not of a teleporter. So I will be giving them a new set of spells in the future, and they will no longer be bound to the identity of mobility. Instead I have made the dimensional traveler whose identity is 100% to take up that identity for them.

    Future plans

    • Balance it so that a mortal army can be equal to a demonic army in overall value and time devoted to it
    • Redo the Mortal start so that you can choose how you want to start your base
    • Make it faster paced so that you get more value early, and over time, while still having the feel of an early/mid/late tech-tree
    • Redo the human and orc tech tree
    • Add the ability to choose your race rather than have it preset for you
    • Redo every unit in the game to have unique potential and have something to offer
    • Add a second-chance system to mortals while updating the prison system to be equivalent for demon players
    • Add races to all players
      - Nature (Mortal), Illidari (Mortal), Nightmare (Demon), Fel (Demon), Titan of Wrath (Sargeras), Titan of Knowledge (Sargeras), Titan of Mercy (Sargeras)
    • Add the Portal ability to demonic players

    Loading Screen/Map Preview

    not yet.

    Author's notes

    As reviving this map is an ongoing effort, and the popularity of this map has always hovered between being a cult-classic and popular, then I would encourage people to help me by telling me what they think, feel, and want.

    Map Description Template Created by -Kobas-

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 29, 2016
  2. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    I am now ready for a version to be publicly tested.
    Feedback, bug finding, ideas, and etc is crucial in these next stages.

    Once I am comfortable with it, then I will upload it to the official Hive map section, but for now, I don't feel it is at that stage.
  3. Fawful


    Sep 28, 2014
    Map file isn't working for me. The map can't be selected in Warcraft 3.

    I downloaded the map three times and have the version on newest patch.

    edit: And it's unprotected btw - I'll only use this to see whether I can start the map now, but otherwise you should consider protecting the file.
  4. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    I will look into it. It works fine for me.

    edit: Okay, my apologies. It would appear I have been fooling myself. I have been using the 'test map' button in the world editor all this time, not going through the method of pulling up war3 first and going through custom games.

    I have found your problem and resolved it. I have uploaded the updated version.

    And at the time I didn't have a protected version up because it was my understanding that it is against hiveworkshop policy. I have put up a protected version then, but if I hear from an admin I need to have it unprotected, then I will reverse this.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  5. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Alright, so before hosting this I was taking a look in single player, and while I do understand that you want to start from an older version for good reason, there is some stuff in the newer versions that I think is pretty important.
    Demons: Waygates (the first building you get) cost literally nothing. Free. This is bad because then you can make as many as you want, and thus you can pump our troops as fast as you want, only limited by space you have to build waygates. Make them cost something, increase build time SLIGHTLY as well maybe.

    Demon lords (Archimonde, Kiljeadan, Hakkar, Mannoroth, Tichondrius) are also free. They should be expensive, and in the newer versions they have varying prices, with hakkar being the cheapest by far. Demon Lords also build almost instantaneously, and so does the building that builds them. They should have pretty long build times imo.

    Also, the elite demon units should maybe take a TAD longer to build.

    Also, a key part of this game in the new versions is the summoners ability to create portals. They click a location ANYWHERE on the map, and make a portal in front of them, and at the location, and then units can walk through the portal. These were destructible, with very little hp and no armor, and the mortal races/sargeras could also walk through them. I think you should add this back in, and tie it to a research.

    The paladins, knights, and archmages build almost instantly. I think you should increase paladin, knight, and archmage build time to what the wizard build time is.

    The humans don't have any access to siege damage at the moment, and it's always bugged me that in a lot of games, knights are just footmen but better in every way, so maybe give them siege damage or give footmen an ability or something.

    Add tower upgrades--either to a splash damage cannon, an arcane tower for taking out/disabling casters, or an increased damage arrow tower. Lastly, walls were a key and invaluable part of defending. They should be added back in because without them it's easy for the mortals to be overrun.

    Kodos, raiders, far seers, and orc warlords all build super fast. change their build time to that of the shaman.

    Again, walls are key.
    Tower upgrades could be the dreanei boulder wall for a splash damage one.
    The Orcs have no access to ranged piercing damage at the moment, so perhaps add in the custom orc spearthrower, and make it lower damage/range than the human equivilant, made up for by some of the orcs other strengths. Not sure how I feel about grunts having light armor and footmen having medium armor.
    I want to find a way to add in the spikes upgrade that makes all buildings deal damage to any unit that attacks it, but maybe you shouldn't? up to you.

    Hard to say, have to try him out first.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  6. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Alright, so this post is going to be what long term wishes I have for this game. note, when i say hero, it means something similar to the demon lords (archimonde etc), not one that actually levels up.

    Add more demon lords. Kazzak The Supreme comes to mind, but you could also have ones like magtheridon/azgalor, Varimathras/Aenetheron/Balnazzar, Jaraxxus Eredar Lord of the Burning Legion, and others. You could honestly just look up names on the wiki and then add them--i found a guy called kruul who apparently replaced Kazzak.
    In addition, I would love if each demon lord influenced the army a bit--influencing things like how powerful specific units are, and what units you have access to. For example, to get nathrezim units you would have to get a nathrezim demon lord. To get pit lords you would have to get an annihilan demon lord (the pit lord race), Hakkar could give a buff to felguards and fel hounds, and maybe add a new unit--either a fel guard mounted on a fel hound, or the overlord (the blue fel gaurd with an aura and cleaave), or both. Doom guards would only be allowed to Doom Lords like Kazzak, you would buff/add some other stuff obviously. And Eredar Lords could buff the eredar warlock and maybe replace fel guards with the eredar Wrath Guards, and possibly add another eredar caster.

    When demons kill a race, if they don't have a demon lord (or maybe in exchange for getting rid of a demon lord and putting it back in the 'store' for other players) they should be able to get an evil character from that race in place of a demon lord. Gul'dan, Jubei'thos, Grom Helscream, Cho'gall, Teron Gorefiend, Nerzhul, (really almost any first/second war orc commanders would work), Arthas, Kel'thuzad, Fandral Staghelm, Xavius.
    Getting one of these would give you an instant town hall building and builders of the corrupted version of that race, as well as buff the corrupted units.

    Please note that I am fully aware that much of the below messes with the lore due to drawing on different time periods, but we already have Archimonde and Kil'jeadan, who didn't join until after sargeras, so it's fine.

    Add "heroes" for these guys as well. Malfurion, Uther, Thrall, Drek'thar, Orgrim Doomhammer, Grom (uncorrupted obviously), Garrosh(?), Arthas, Varian, (i'm forgetting the human characters names from the first war but those guys as well), tyrion, Alexandros, Antonidas, Rhonin, Jaina,

    These guys could also have a similar effect on the gameplay of the race in question as the demon lords--adding/buffing units, but maybe not.

    As an alternative to the demons gaining control of corrupted versions of races (or in addition--they still gain individual buildings when they kill them but dont get the new start/mortal hero), when a race is destroyed, the player isn't defeated, but instead, every uncorrupted building/unit is destroyed, and they gain the exact same starting stuff as they had at the begining, only the corrupted version, and they become allied to the demons. They can also get a "hero" which may or may not affect their units (see above list of the evil characters that could replace demon lord)--Anu'barak,

    However, they could have the option to betray the demons and forge their own path--for the sake of fluff, they would be allying with the old gods on their world (or in the case of scourge, the lich king would just be powerful enough to say fuck off to the legion). They would gain benefits from this, but only be allied to other corrupted races that have also chosen this path--for example, the scourge would gain the lich king in addition to whatever hero they had (if you chose arthas then he would disappear and you would be able to choose another hero) which would be almost equal with archimonde/kiljeadan, and perhaps gain some researches that indicate that they have consumed their world and are harvesting the old gods blood (saronite). Gul'dan could take the power he was given by the legion (As he almost did in the new WoW expac) and gain a power boost, and you would automatically gain him in addition to whatever hero you already had (if gul'dan, then the former gul'dan is lost and you choose another hero as with arthas)

    Hopefully new races will be added--high elves, night elves, maybe dreanei, maybe dwarves.

    High elves would obvious have fel elves as their corrupt equivilant, and night elves would have satyrs. But this leaves out naga, which are correct for both of them. You could just add naga for both of them, (or they gain naga after betraying the legion) but then they might end up being too similar--whether or not this is a bad thing is up to you. Uncorrupted heroes for High Elves could be Keal'thas, Anasterian, Sylvanas, Dath'remar (First king of Quel'thalas), night elf heroes could include Tyrande,
    Malfurion, Illidan, Azshara, Cenarius.

    If you don't like the idea of the races joining the legion, then perhaps--if you included the demons ability to gain a mortal corrupted hero, such as gul'dan/azshara/arthas/etc, then THEY could gain the ability to betray the rest of the legion, and would gain similar benefits as listed above.

    Also, since there are more than 4 possible mortal races (high elves, night elves, dreanei, orcs, humans) perhaps add a 5th race? unlikely, i know, but something to consider.

    That's about it. If I think of any more, I'll let you know.
  7. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    Certainly, I am open to anything and everything. I recognize that people might be mad at me for it. But there are many versions of corruption, and the problems presented in the beginning versions were never fixed, but were driven deeper and deeper into the game. In order to combat these problems I have chosen to go back as far back as possible.

    At the same time, its about permission. Shalek had given me permission to inherit his map. Chevalier did not give me permission before he stopped several years ago. (We were working together on the same forum and were constantly in dialogue, so its not for a lack of communication.)

    Considering that, I am going with what I, by honor, am allowed to work with.

    I do find this unusual. I did mean for the building to be quickly produced, but free? The only version that should be free is the one your Seed of Darkness makes. Your Summoner should be making ones that cost gold.

    The idea behind things being quickly producable is to make it more fast paced and allowing you to actually use the gold you have. I am open to pulling back on that a bit if it is proven to be a problem.

    This comes down to a decision I have made when looking at them. Much how like, in melee, people have free access to their hero, I wanted the demon lords to be easily accessible. But, at the same time, I want them to be costly equal to their value and to be, not an early game strategy, but a mid-late one.

    The previous values were:
    Portal - 250g
    Archimonde - 550g - 1350~ hp (total of 800g)
    Kiljaedon - 500g - 1050~ hp (total of 750g)
    Tichondrius - 250g - 750~ hp (total of 500g)
    Mannoroth - 175g - 950~ hp (total of 325g)
    Hakkar - 175g - 800~ hp (total of 325g)

    The result is that because they are so different in value and cost, the demon players find themselves in a compeition to see who can get Archimonde first. If you don't get him, well then you're just bad and have to settle for something that is bad. Like Hakkar. Meanwhile pros just get archimonde in the first few minutes because, "come on, he's Archimonde! He's the one that is actually worth having for his cost! what kind of noob are you?"

    That is not a mindset I want for demons to have. I want them to see all of them as, not necessarily equal, but viable. Hakkar should not be the 'poor man's hero'. Mannoroth should be a hell of a lot tankier than he is. Tichondrius should feel more dangerous. Kiljaedon and Archimonde, by nature of being warlocks and not tanks, shouldn't be so utterly rediculas in cost, hp, and value.

    It is largely an experiment, but making the new values:
    portal - 500g
    archimonde - 0 - 1050 (from 1350)
    Kiljaedon - 0 - 1050 (actually not touched)
    Tichondrius - 0 - 950 (up from 750)
    Mannoroth - 0 - 1250 (Up from 950)
    Hakkar - 0 - 950 (up from 800)

    This should result in the demon lords being a bit more equal to value, while taking on the characteristics expected of them. Mannoroth is finally a tank and is worth having. Kiljaedon and Archimonde I am looking to buff up in spells a bit, while slowly toning down their tanky stats. Tichondrius, I am unsure where to have him, but a middle ground between being a front line fighter and an agent looks like what he should be. Hakkar is still going to be the one people are less familiar with, is less of a favorite, and will still be kinda the least of the pack, but I want him to still make the person feel like he has value when standing beside the others.

    Another reason, for both the cost changes and time training change, is that you build it. Its a huge building. It has almost no hp. Sargeras sees it. Its doomed. Well, there goes your money. There goes a LOT of money.

    No, when you build it, it shouldn't leave a huge time window open for you to be so utterly screwed.

    I am open to making the training time a decent length, but not 2-3 minutes like it was before.

    That I completely agree with. I want to bring it back, and I plan to. Its just not first on my list.

    I actually wanted all of them to build in the span of 1 second. I am open to increasing it back to a decent time if it proves to be a problem, but I am trying this to see how it works. I consider training time to be a problem that, really, shouldn't be a resource in a game that should be more fast paced. Time you waste training can be easily spent going out there and doing something.

    I don't consider the lack of siege damage to be a problem. I want every mortal race, both present and future ones, to have special traits. Orcs lack piercing, but have siege with raiders which is a front line unit. Human's lack siege but have a more mixed variety of front/backline units.

    I do want both races to have solutions to everything, and to have good variety, so that is most definietely something I am considering. I don't want Knights to just be bigger footmen. I want every unit in the game to have something about them that makes them special, makes them viable at some point against something.

    I am... very... very hesitant about tower upgrades. Very hesitant. I recognize they make it crucial to survive when your survival is on the line. However the power of turrets and walls combined to create a game that was far too linear. Mortals did nothing but turtle for 30 minutes, in every single game I played, and nothing else. Only after 30 minutes, after Sargeras had already done all the work for them, did they come out of their shell and actually do something. All because turrets and walls were not only expedient, but required to survive.

    So I consider this to be two different issues you are having. Yes, towers could be a bit of flavor with the variety of home defenses. However, the last thing I will be having is a mindset where you have to turtle for 30-60 minutes 100% of the time in 100% of the games because that is the only way to do it.

    Literally I would see 10-20 turrets, 4-5 walls, and a demon player would throw a TON of infernals on it, an army of nearly 150-200 at it with infernal machines... and they wouldn't make it past the walls because... it was utterly stupid. The walls were bugged, the turrets were mini-sargeras, you couldn't actually get your troops in to fight because of the size of the collision, and... the human player wouldn't have a single unit. Just turrets. Because it was expedience. Because it was necessary. Because it was the only way to survive, just as you say that turrets and walls are crucial.

    Rather than make turrets and walls the only way to survive, I want to provide other solutions. Namely in buffing mortals enough that they will feel weak, but prove to be able to stand up against the demons not only enough to survive and prove resilient, but be able to fight back. Give them variety. Give them methods of fighting back against the darkness that is not quite that obvious on the surface, but combine to become something greater than the whole.

    Same as before with the humans.

    Explained. This proves my point. No race should ever say 'this unit is key'.


    You are right in the idea of orc having a particular strength in their front line. I don't want to add it, but then my dislike for orcs having range is largely to preserve their identity as a "chaaaaaarrge!" front line type of race. so long as this identity is preserved, I will consider it.

    Neither do I. Didn't notice that. Seems that is a detail Shalek had made. It is technically a worthless detail, since demons do the same amount of damage to both light armor and medium armor, but I recognize people may become uncomfortable with it.

    I am really not sure about this, good or bad, and will just say that whether I say yes or not, it isn't a priority.

    Certainly. Let me know when you are done. :)

    Very excellent points presented, and has left me with a fair bit to think about.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  8. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    errr, okay I'll take it all at once.

    I do plan to add more World Races and more heros, and generally more features with a lore feel, but a lot of that just looks like role play and doesn't really come out for being competitive gameplay. Mostly in regards to changing teams. The one thing I will not have are players swapping teams. The rest of that is open for me to think about.
  9. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Fair enough. I'm someone who loves lordaeron the aftermath, which involves a lot of events/team changing, while still being competitive, so i thought eh, why not suggest it.
  10. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Guy called Mesis left a comment on Brigands Haven, I'll paste it here.

    "First of all thing I would like to see:
    - More "good" races. The players could chose so for example humans, orcs, night elves, naga etc.

    - make the worlds "planet like".
    Meaning that a map would be bigger and each island would be simliar to a planet with multiple biomes and perhaps 1 dominant biome
    I didnt really like the number of islands, it was more about hide and seek

    - tie starting planets to the races that are chosen and randomize spawning locations
    Meaning that for example night elves could start only on planets that would have dominant biome a forest and there would be for example 5 forest planets.

    - Make demons appear more "infinite" and freeing demons from prison basicaly one of the win conditions for demon team
    So the conditions would be: Kill good players / Kill Sargeras / Destroy the Prison
    on the other hand the Sargeras and good team win condition would be basicaly surviving long enough or letting Sargeras "fortify" certain number of worlds with titan minions

    - less "jumping" on islands and playing hide and seek and more about fighting

    - diversity
    Each good faction should be unique.
    Demons should also have more playstyles - raw force, infiltration, corruption etc. (planets not populated by good players would be populated by "npc" races to corrupt and let them join to Legion ranks etc.)"
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  11. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    Cool, okay. I would prefer them coming here, but I can deal with it.

    That is one of my plans. I have ideas for not only 'basic' races that are comparable to orcs and humans, but also unique ones that function entirely different in a tech-tree sense.

    I am not entirely sure what you mean by this. The idea of a dominant biome, I would say no. I believe that have a variety in how each planet is different, in both functionality and looks, is a major part of Corruption of Sargeras.

    I consider the number of islands to neither be a problem nor a benefit. It simply is. Now, if we were to say that there is an imbalance between the number of large planets and small ones, then I would say yes, there is. But 33 planets (I believe that is how many there are) is neither too many nor too few in my eyes when you look at how there are supposed to be 12 players moving around on them.

    The problem, in my eyes, is the way the players play. Their strategies, their mindsets. I will explain a bit further.

    This is the problem I just mentioned. The players do not always play properly. Here is how a game usually goes:

    Sargeras: Jumps around playing hide and seek with a 1/33 chance of finding a summoner on the world he jumps to

    Demons: Takes every world in relative safety, builds an army, and sieges human worlds infinietely.

    Mortals: Sit there behind turrets and walls and plays Happy Bird for an hour with their feet up, relaxed, not really doing much else.

    That is how I see most games go, and that is not healthy. The result is toxic because then Sargeras can't ever find a summoner, because there are too many demon worlds to hide on, and the humans aren't doing jack shit, and the demons technically can't do anything against either one because walls/turrets are stupidly good and there aren't any actual Anti-Titan tools. Seriously, Sarg just walks up to five citadels, smacks them, and is only reduced by 1000hp? Thats 600 magic down the drain. Then the only current strategy to fight sarg is mass Voidwalkers, which people cry about being OP. And if it fails, you basically have to spend 24k magic to make it work.

    As you can imagine, that is not healthy, and yet that is how it goes. The core of it falls down to mortal power being 10% units and 90% turrets, and there not really being much to do about a good Sargeras. The mortals don't do much. The game is basically 7v1 with these little npcs on the corner worlds.

    I have very rarely seen mortals expand and go on the offense early, mid, or late game, and its only the ones that are actually good that do it, because they recognize what I have just said.

    Sargeras CANNOT defeat demons alone. Fact.

    Mortal's tend to put him in the position to do that.

    That's why it looks like one giant hide and seek. If the mortals were to go on the offensive and successfully corner the demons onto only a few worlds, then the huge number of worlds you are concerned about will suddenly feel a bit... claustrophobic.

    So what I hope to do is give the mortals tools and the ability to consider offense, and in varying kinds, to be a strategy too.

    At the same time, just as mortals have offensive abilities is a strategy to be recognized, then the demons need defensives ones to deal with it (or just throw an offensive one at it and see who can be bloodier). The current version has no demon towers beyond the citadel, but I hope to add them in one form or another again.

    Uh... No.

    Hehe, sorry, but um... The mortals are in the four corners of the map. This is part of their identity. A huge part of it. And I can't exactly have each planet completely change biome based on your chosen race. It is an interesting idea, but is beyond my ability.

    The idea of demons appearing more infinite is something we can agree with. I want to take a look at various things such as cost of units, training times, rate of income, and etc to see how I can encourage a faster paced game without making things imbalanced out of proportion and keeping it feeling like a Corruption of Sargeras game. The result may be the demons being able to get a lot more units in the future, provided mortals can as well. It may be that they will one day be freed of the limitation early on to only have 3 wells. I don't know, and it is a slow process. I want the armies to be larger, more aggressive, more powerful, more versatile, and have more strategic options.

    This applies to both mortals and demons.

    Couldn't agree more. Read what I said above. I have already taken a step toward a faster paced game by reducing the training time of almost every unit to 1. That might be going too far, but I want to see the impact it will have myself before I judge how far to pull it back. I have also reduced collision across the board so you can actually have armies fighting instead of dancing around hoping to fight sometime this century.

    Again, I couldn't agree more. I plan to quite literally redo every single unit in the game bit by bit to have bigger impact, have special traits, provide a mix of strategies, and offer something more than just being 20 versions of a footmen.

    I will give one plan I have, as a teaser.


    Imagine infernals... that can throw themselves onto neighboring planets with all the power, the impact and devastation, and umph (can I say that?) expected of an infernal.

    I have found a small bug and did a hotfix. The file in post [Strategy / Risk] - Corruption of Sargeras Legacy has been replaced.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
  12. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Mesis: "Thing I meant with this that there are only 4 "proper" planet islands in the corner of the map and tons of smaller islands

    I would like to see bigger planet islands and more planet islands and less the smaller islands.
    That would result in increasing the map (I belive it is not on the maximum size). There would be more than 4 proper planet islands ... lets say ... 12-24 + smaller islands between them.

    As in standart W3 melee players spawning location would be random on these big planets (Sargeras and demons would have to find them first).
    Planets would have different biomes = different look.

    If you wouldnt want to reduce the rng of spawning locations (aka naga starting is desert place) you would allow naga to spawn on water planets only)"
  13. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Emperor Fawful:
    "Apart from the "Less jumping part", I actually created a map which has these aspects, but is pretty much Beta and with more focus on the World races than on the Legion (3 Legion players VS 1 Guardian and 8 World races, of which some can betray for Legion or Old Gods).
    The key problem is however, that I kinda want to have a vast ammount of worlds, meaning that there's enough worlds the demons can consume easily, while others are supposed to be footholds of the living races, depending on how they do. The question is though whether balance will too much overprefer the demons or not, because that's the main part I'm worried about.
    While not all the races are supposedly allied with eachother. I hope that conflicts arise from this , should this project ever come to life, but I fear that they will just keep neutral towards eachother till the demons arrive.

    I also switched the roles (Demon forces are predominant and must destroy the world races along with the Guardian; World races must fight back the Legion and eventually kill the fallen Titan.), so it's more like a continiuation of a potential bad ending of TCoS (Where I referenced the main demon planet and three of the former world races planets from the other map on smaller scale within the center of the map), while it's an independent project with custom lore. The Fallen Titan is only refered as 'The Fallen'.

    As for screenshots on an early draft:
    Either way, I hope that we might see a similiar reboot in the future, potentially better terrained and better executed. I went with 25 Planet worlds, where inbetween smaller world chunks exist, either from destroyed planets (similiar to Outland) or elemental planes (Water, Earth, Fire, Air) with their local elemental lords, but think that mayhaps focuing on half the ammount of planets or even less would have been better. Right now I scaled down a lot of units to even make battlefields lmore chokepointless, while I nontheless would have to redesign some of the planets.

    But either way, this is not an active project. Have to finish Conquest of Dalaran first. ;)
    Only an inspiration of what TCoS could be like."
  14. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    While I am naturally open to feedback and ideas, and I appreciate these ideas, I do find myself at an impasse. Looking at the picture, I do feel I have a better idea what he means, and that does seem very interesting to me. If I were to take Corruption of Sargeras down a somewhat similar path, I hope I can somehow keep the flavor intact, but there are a number of problems.

    1. Cinematics and Tutorials

    A huge portion of the code already put into the game is JUST for the beginning tutorial and for the ending cinematics. And so much of it is terrain dependant. If I were to completely redo the terrain from scratch, then it would not only break a lot of the code but the tutorials. So it would be at the cost of the current tutorials. I might be able to redo the tutorials from scratch, as well, but we are looking at 3-4 thousand lines of code, and while I understand it just fine when I read it, doesn't mean I can write it myself yet. I have never touched Jass until now.

    Naturally, I do hope to do away with the tutorials in the future as I make the game and races more and more easy to understand, so redoing the terrain is a posibility in the future. But it would have to be after I can feel that new players who go into the game would have some grasp of how to play without the tutorial.

    So something I am thinking about is whether or not the tutorials are important to the playerbase or not. I personally don't like them, but they aren't for me. If I can do away with the tutorials, that would free up a HUGE portion of the completely convoluted code and give me more room to work with the early game.

    2. kinds of planets

    The size of the planets would have to vary, and is something I find mildly concerning right now. I might, might, be able to do a good terrain reboot if I go without making them all round. I quite like how the planets on CoS look like jigsaw pieces, but the picture presented to me is leaving a lot of wasted space. I don't know how many round planets I could fit in the map, if I redid it, and at the same time while keeping the primary prison planet itact. No, if I were to redo the terrain from scratch, then it would be with them still being jig-saw pieces like they are now, but a bit larger.

    Now that I have a better understanding of what the questions are in relation to terrian, it does seem more duable. I have done a bit of research into how to make black water, and it turns out it is simpler than I thought. So technically a terrain reboot is duable.

    3. Talent

    My third concern with this idea is quite simply that I am not an artist. I am good with technical things. Databases. Programming. Things of that nature. Give me a piece of paper and tell me to draw something, and I'll just either leave it blank or make it a giant grid. I have very very little artistic talent. It would be doable, if I have a picture of reference to base it on or something, but it would be a very slow process because I would be stumbling in the dark like a novice, and I doubt I would do the map justice.

    4. Should it be done?

    The final concern is whether or not it should be done. I am going back far, and tearing a lot down, to rebuild it back up. But at the same time I don't want to make a map that is completely unrecognizeable from the original because Corruption of Sargeras Legacy is precisely that, the Legacy of it. An attempt to honor the original product and make it better, while keeping it intact. Shaving away the edges and adding more polish and sparkle to it, and adding things enough to keep it interest and improved, but still keeping the original diamond intact.
  15. Fawful


    Sep 28, 2014
    Oh, uhm... well, I could have posted this myself. ^^
    Was btw a response to Mesis.

    It was not critisism or a call to change the entire project here, don't worry.
  16. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    Ah, my bad. I just got into the habit of copy-pasting everything lmfao.
  17. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    ALSO--something i jus thought of;the demons should have a reason to stay if they are imprisoned, so that people don't leave when they get imprisoned, since breaking the door can be time consuming. no idea what, but something to think about!
  18. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    I have looked into the portal system and I think I can manage it easily enough. The biggest problem is that while I can ready the Jass Code just fine, writing it is another whole different ballpark. So I am doing it slowly, and I will have to test it thoroughly once I get the code done. I can read what I write and understand it forwards and backwards, but I am expecting some hidden thing to go in and say 'no, it doesnt work that way!'

    In addition, I have sat down and graphed out the value of every mortal and demon unit in the game, and I just have to say that the balance is absolutely ABSURD!

    Here is part of it:
    Archer -
    dps per cost value: 1.24
    HP per cost value: 60

    Hakkar -
    dps per cost value: 1.9
    health per cost value: 0.1

    Portal -
    health per cost value: 137

    Greater Demonic Citadel -
    Health per cost value: 60
    dps per cost value: 0.67 * radius

    See the huge difference? Then there are things like how the orc farms cost more than human ones. I looked and that and said, 'what??'

    If I am going to manage to balance this, or even get the two sides into the same ballpark, then I will need to redo the income system first. Because all of these values is based on their own individual costs, which is only more confused by the fact that their income systems are entirely different in early, mid, and late game potential.

    If I can make it so that 1 magic is about as hard to get as 1 gold for these races, then I will be able to say that the value per cost will be easier to manage, and can work it up from there.
  19. Brightest Light

    Brightest Light

    Aug 24, 2015
    "Does this map maker have an unprotected_version of Tcos 5.2rm?

    Also make Manneroth's blood lust ability take longer than 0.15 seconds please"
  20. TheAncient


    Feb 14, 2008
    'This mapmaker'? Well thats rude!

    The answer is no, and nor do I want it. I consider every version of Tcos to be progressively worse. That is precisely why I have gone as far back as I have.

    Naturally he is free to disagree.

    Oh, snap. That's bad. *Fixed* Will be in the next patch.