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[Development] CliCli Incubation Program!

But if someone with knowledge of programming/computing wants to see your map triggers, then I dont think it will be impossible for them.
It depends on what you define as "see your map triggers".
If a scrambled mess that result in same thing in-game, but it barely editable due to variable names, function names etc. being shortened and/or optimized, you are technically correct. But in reality, probably not.

It's likely easier to see what happens in-game and remake it from scratch.
 

Dr Super Good

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If you really want to protect the map makers you have to have DRM in the maps, otherwise what's stopping someone from stealing the map like we see in warcraft 3?
The platform itself is stopping theft since they need to upload the map to the CliCli servers to "publish" it for others to play it in multiplayer. If your map is a popular map, especially with paid content, you can be sure that any clones/unauthorized copies of that map will be pulled down and possible account action taken against those responsible. The platform itself appears to offer some protection against such behaviour.

I am not sure how they would protect single player maps, especially if the always online DRM of the client is defeated. As such content creators could provide better protection for their maps by targeting multiplayer only. Even campaigns that are traditionally single player could be made to target 2 or more "coop" players hence bringing the platform DRM protection into play. Of course if your map is free to play with no paid content like a traditional western WC3 map, people playing or manipulating it in single player is of no concern to you.
All I can think of is some kind of manual review process where maps need to be approved when published before you can host them.
I suspect this is the case, especially for maps with paid content. Similar to how platforms like Epic, Steam, GooglePlay and the like work.
  • You do not want to pay a monthly fee, so you copy the map and publish your own version free of charge;
  • You want to 'have some fun', so you copy the map, edit it / inject cheats, and publish it;
  • You like a (free) map but you're an asshole, so you copy the map, edit it, and remove credits to the original author (this happened to a friend of mine in wc3 btw), then publish it;
  • You like a (free) map but you're an asshole, and you want to make some money, so you copy the map with (added) monetization;
I suspect there will be some protection against these cases similar to the above mentioned platforms. If such map somehow makes it to be published you can likely report it and have it removed from the platform very quickly with the publisher being punished. Any money stolen by such map would likely be refunded to the victims.
You like a (free) map, but the author has abandoned it and is unreachable, so you update/maintain it;
If the map is abandonware you probably could get away with it. However you also might not. Depends how strict the review process is.
You like a (free) map, and want to make your own version (a fork), with the original author's approval.
It is my understanding that this is entirely supported. The map author could move ownership or give publishing rights to the new maintainer. If the map has a significant commercial value the authors/partners would likely need to work out some contract over the monetization between each other.
SaaS (software as a service) might be the strongest form of DRM there is. All it takes is a ban or the servers to go offline and you lose all access.
Wouldn't say it's a good thing though. We're lucky Warcraft 3 survived 20 years, but if it gets abandoned for real (servers offline too), the current version with its new DRM will become unusable.
I know plenty of map creators for both WC3 and SC2 who really wanted such a thing because their map was plagued by cheaters.
Drake, you can't just "download a map" and edit it yourself. The map's source is only accessible to the map maker.
For clients to play the map the playable form of the map data must be cached onto every player's system. This might be missing source code information but is still enough that third party tools could modify it to do things the creator did not intent. This is exactly the problem with both Warcraft III and StarCraft II maps which allows cheat packs and generated save/load codes to exist.
Some hackers can make tools that will allow de-protection of CliCli maps. These tools may be abused by people who want to pirate your map and play it without paying monthly fee etc
Which is where the platform itself acts as a DRM. If your map is multiplayer and needs a monthly fee then it might be cracked and a single player version made but few people will use it since to play multiplayer they would still need to pay the monthly fee and play the official version as all stolen versions would be removed.

That said subscription for access to a map is a very bad business decision. AAA MMORPGs struggle to maintain that business model in this day and age so there is little chance your map can. I would use that payment model for in-game content subscriptions such as skin passes or patreon style rewards rather than gating access to your map behind it.
 
How do you intend to prevent the bad situations from happening (and maybe allow the good ones)?
I assume you download / have access to the map when you play it (for example as a .zip file), and even if the published assets are somehow different/protected from the source files, you'd still be able to edit and publish your own version easily.
The review process is manual. You will not be able to take a map and simply republish it. Of course no system is perfect and in the case where it is later discovered that a particular asset/map was taken without authorization the map can be removed.

Battle Platform has been operating this way since 2017.
 
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If a scrambled mess that result in same thing in-game, but it barely editable due to variable names, function names etc. being shortened and/or optimized, you are technically correct. But in reality, probably not.

It's likely easier to see what happens in-game and remake it from scratch.
The purpose is not to read/copy code from map. But to get access to decompiled map code and create a crack then distribute it for free. Sure, it will be hard to understand the decompiled code, but people will still be able to make 'cracks'.

There are many people out there who de-compile and modify messy C++ code to make cracks. Messy code will not deter people from cracking stuff and distribute it to public for free.
If your map is multiplayer and needs a monthly fee then it might be cracked and a single player version made but few people will use it since to play multiplayer they would still need to pay the monthly fee
Private servers can deal with that issue. Diablo 3 and WoW always require online connection+ a lot of game logic takes place on official servers to prevent piracy however both of these games are cracked by private servers like Nostalrius/Elysium WoW and Diablo 3 Reflection. These cracks allow free online play on privately run servers.

Same can happen with CliCli maps and the platform itself. If the platform gets popular, then there will likely be several CliCli private servers that will allow you to play paid/cracked content for free.

I know plenty of map creators for both WC3 and SC2 who really wanted such a thing because their map was plagued by cheaters.
Anti Cheat DRM is not a sufficient solution for cheaters too. CSGO & Fortnite cheats show how the most advanced anticheat DRM softwares are incapable of detecting cheats/exploits. Valve and Epic are billion dollar companies but they still could not make an Anticheat that can purge cheaters.

tldr, DRM can not protect CliCli mapmakers agaisnt private server cracks just like with WoW/Diablo3, pirate community will find a way to make private servers for CliCli. So I demand removal of DRM from CliCli.
 
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Dr Super Good

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These cracks allow free online play on privately run servers.
Servers are not free so someone is paying for it. Also many such servers have had DMCA takedowns filed against them, especially for WoW.
Same can happen with CliCli maps and the platform itself. If the platform gets popular, then there will likely be several CliCli private servers that will allow you to play paid/cracked content for free.
It is only a loss if people who would have paid for that content do not. To play on the official platform they will have to pay so most people that would, still would.
Anti Cheat DRM is not a sufficient solution for cheaters too. CSGO & Fortnite cheats show how the most advanced anticheat DRM softwares are incapable of detecting cheats/exploits. Valve and Epic are billion dollar companies but they still could not make an Anticheat that can purge cheaters.
From what I can tell most are detected, just they are not instant banned so that the cheat makers do not have instant feedback that their product was detected.

I am fairly certain most of the cheats and hacks people complain about in Warcraft III and StarCraft II custom map making will not be an issue. I am also fairly certain people will be banned for trying to cheat, something that was not always the case for Warcraft III custom maps where map hacks were prevalent for a long time.
 
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Servers are not free so someone is paying for it.
I did not say servers are free. I said that playing games on private servers is free, generally speaking. For example you can play Classic WoW on Elysium private server for free. No need to pay subscription fee or price of game purchase.
Also many such servers have had DMCA takedowns filed against them, especially for WoW.
Yes but these DMCAs did not succeed especially when Blizzard attempted to shut down a popular WoW private server called Nostalrius. Because after the takedown, Nostalrius rebranded itself as Elysium and continued providing Classic WoW cracks and services. And its still doing that in 2022.

There are many other examples where DMCA could not stop piracy. For example Piratebay is still up.
From what I can tell most [cheats] are detected, just they are not instant banned
If cheaters are not instant banned then this means they are being allowed to cheat and spoil games for other players. Sure they may lose account after some time (maybe weeks or months) but making a new account is easy. So after the 'ban' these ppl will continue cheating and find better ways to avoid detection.
 

Dr Super Good

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For example Piratebay is still up.
Most ISPs in the west have it blocked. Bad example as it is one of the success cases. It is not trivial for someone to access and those that do access it are often exploited as a result due to lack of understanding of what they are doing to bypass the blacklist.
If cheaters are not instant banned then this means they are being allowed to cheat and spoil games for other players.
Yes but it is common practice in the industry for the reason I outlined non the less. Has been so for decades.
Sure they may lose account after some time (maybe weeks or months) but making a new account is easy.
Not necessarily. Especially in some countries that require personal information such as name, identity, proof of age and mobile number.
 

Wrda

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So I've seen several tutorials and I stopped and thought straight for 1 min about this:
Special - Convert Real Number to Angle.
What? Since when "Angle" is a type? I've never seen such a thing in the programming languages I know. This says nothing about the "Angle", is it degrees or radians? Well, I know this is degrees because the tutorial says so, but would I know it under 1 sec without it? At first that was what I thought about this convertion.
This is like "Convert Meat to Steak".
Will we also have "Convert Real Number to Coordinate" by this logic?
Also, I've just realised, there's integer and float type, yet it shows "Real Number" implying another type. But I suppose "Real Number" and "Float" are the same thing, right?
Not necessarily. Especially in some countries that require personal information such as name, identity, proof of age and mobile number.
And that, is the number one reason no one would ever accept that. That's a violation of privacy
 

Dr Super Good

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What? Since when "Angle" is a type? I've never seen such a thing in the programming languages I know. This says nothing about the "Angle", is it degrees or radians? Well, I know this is degrees because the tutorial says so, but would I know it under 1 sec without it? At first that was what I thought about this convertion.
This is like "Convert Meat to Steak".
In theory angle would be carry metadata that the number represents an angle. This would mean that when printed it could automatically be kept within sensible angles (0 to 360 degrees or -180 to +180 degrees) and allow implicit conversion between degrees and radians as required internally.

It is similar to how scientific units like meters should also be their own type so that they could be implicitly converted to something sensible for the user such as meters or kilometres in European locales and feet and miles in US locales rather than showing some arbitrary big or small number of meters as used internally. If such a thing was common place then accidents such as mars probes missing their orbit would be less likely to happen.
Also, I've just realised, there's integer and float type, yet it shows "Real Number" implying another type. But I suppose "Real Number" and "Float" are the same thing, right?
For consistency they should be called "real" so that non computer scientists understand that it represents a real number as opposed to integer. Floating point is just the implementation Lua uses, similar to how galaxy used fixed point.
And that, is the number one reason no one would ever accept that. That's a violation of privacy
Over 1 billion people have already. And many western games also demand unique phone numbers when creating accounts.
 

~El

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What? Since when "Angle" is a type? I've never seen such a thing in the programming languages I know.
this is only slightly tangential to this thread, but since you brought this up:
having specific data types for angles is really common in strongly-typed languages where objects do not carry GC overhead like C++ or Rust. it helps to document function signatures, as well as enforce that conversions between radians/degrees are performed where necessary.
 

Dr Super Good

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When attempting to execute the installer (.exe) my anti virus caught it as a potential threat.
There should have been a note here and on the website about false positives, if there are any.
Might want to mention your anti virus provider. It could be limited to only some vendors, possibly even an error in the database they use. This could help the CliCli developers get it sorted.
 

Kyrbi0

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This sounds kinda interesting, though not for myself personally. I look forward to seeing what is made with this engine.

Also I agree that the name could use improvement (though it may already be too late).

Question: Who all is on the development team? I'm having a hard time telling the difference between 3rd-party & 1st-party support here; listening to MayDay & Kam talk about it it seems as though they are on that team? Or associated with it in some way? But not DSG...?
 

Dr Super Good

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Question: Who all is on the development team? I'm having a hard time telling the difference between 3rd-party & 1st-party support here; listening to MayDay & Kam talk about it it seems as though they are on that team? Or associated with it in some way? But not DSG...?
From what I can tell MayDay and Kam are among official developers. There are a lot of other developers on the discord but they are not particularly known here as far as I am aware.

I am not affiliated with CliCli. Anything I post is because I thought people would find it interesting and it might have been posted at a later time anyway.
 
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Most donation based services (save for maybe streamers?) are not viable unless it is a project small enough in scope, that no single person needs to commit much time to it on a regular basis. If someone is working on it full time, then they are probably only working part-time (or not at all). Or they are juggling fulltime + the project and probably burnout eventually. Take the person who created repos on github for stuff like Faker.js, used by Fortune 500 companies. Millions of downloads. The guy couldn't even pay rent. I hope creators on Clicli keep this in mind. The work they are doing is valuable, and it should be valued if we want to keep them around. Excited to play these when they drop.

Streamers are kind of an exception in my eyes because when adjusting for viewership, the amount of donations they receive are proportional to the amount of time they spend streaming.
 
Most donation based services (save for maybe streamers?) are not viable unless it is a project small enough in scope, that no single person needs to commit much time to it on a regular basis. If someone is working on it full time, then they are probably only working part-time (or not at all). Or they are juggling fulltime + the project and probably burnout eventually. Take the person who created repos on github for stuff like Faker.js, used by Fortune 500 companies. Millions of downloads. The guy couldn't even pay rent. I hope creators on Clicli keep this in mind. The work they are doing is valuable, and it should be valued if we want to keep them around. Excited to play these when they drop.

Streamers are kind of an exception in my eyes because when adjusting for viewership, the amount of donations they receive are proportional to the amount of time they spend streaming.
Hello kakerate,

This is not particularly a donation platform; while we do offer donations as an option to support developers, we also support pay2play, cosmetics, and other models. These models have proven very successful in the past.
 
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Oh I'm aware there are multiple routes devs can lean towards, I only said all that because donation-only is one of the options. I think if you are offering something that no one else is bringing to the table that you should charge a premium for it, that's just good business.
 
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The program is good, but there are very significant drawbacks:
1. The user's trigger editor, you can't switch to LUA code directly.
- A very serious drawback, I am very much looking forward to correcting this, without this it is impossible to fully unlock the potential of your program, and experienced and talented creators will simply bypass the program without this

2. It is not clear how to stretch textures on me imported models.
- Here it is possible that I did not understand

What I would like to see:
1. Correction of the first two points
2. Improving the performance of the program (it sometimes slowed me down, it was the application where the choice of the game, etc.)
3. The ability to create a real-time(or saved group) project with someone
4. Performance improvement (FPS)
 
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Dr Super Good

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1. The user's trigger editor, you can't switch to LUA code directly.
- A very serious drawback, I am very much looking forward to correcting this, without this it is impossible to fully unlock the potential of your program, and experienced and talented creators will simply bypass the program without this
This has to be done externally as far as I am aware. However, the in-built GUI is certainly a lot more powerful than WC3.
2. It is not clear how to stretch textures on me imported models.
As far as graphic programming goes textures should automatically be stretched due to GPUs using normalised texture coordinates. How they are stretched would be based on the chosen sample logic.
 
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Hey all!

I thought an update on how this went was in order.

Our first Incubation Program recently completed resulting in a slate of exciting indie games. We had 27 of 37 teams complete the three month program, earning a total of $246,800 in progress based payments along the way. While the Incubation Program has concluded for now, we have begun our relaunch of the Bounty Hunter Program, which you can read more about here: Bounty Hunter

Take a look at these games and many more by downloading our platform here: CliCli- Brand New UGC Gaming Platform

We have an active Discord server where creators chat with each other and us on their projects and the ongoing platform development: Join the CliCli Dev Discord Server!

If you're interested reach out with any questions. We also have documentation you may review here: Help - CliCli Publishing & Review, User Manual, Triggers

We look forward to accompanying you on our journey from Alpha to launch in 2023, and beyond.
 
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I'm promoting the Platform and Editor. Because I believe in the great potential of both. Platform with many monetization ways good for developers. Warcraft 3 similiar editor easy and powerful, good for amateurs to relesed creativity and have fun creating games, as well as professional solo and team developers with many free assets, editor time saver.
I already shared the platform with my friends, teachers, Dota 2 mod developers.
Dota 2 mod developers suffer from problems caused by some game updates that break parts and sometimes at most make mods unplayable. And Dota 2 requires new players to play so many normal games, then release Custom Games.
Many good and complex Custom Games are dead.

I wish you to make contests for these game styles: Mario Kart (Racing games with powerups), Vampirism, Fall Guy, Twisted Metal (Battle Cars), RTS (Warcraft 3, Age of Empires, Red Alert), MMORPG.
Suggestion: You could release assets before the contest to encourage participation.
 
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