• Listen to a special audio message from Bill Roper to the Hive Workshop community (Bill is a former Vice President of Blizzard Entertainment, Producer, Designer, Musician, Voice Actor) 🔗Click here to hear his message!
  • Read Evilhog's interview with Gregory Alper, the original composer of the music for WarCraft: Orcs & Humans 🔗Click here to read the full interview.

Beta testing category

Status
Not open for further replies.
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
Hi

I'm Theo Lord Of Chaos

I've been trying to get my map approved for about a year and recently I came upon a reason(other them my poor world editor skills) why it has yet been approved.

reviews
awaiting updates
eventual rejection.

the process of the current hive system

reading through this list

www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=2009

I believe people don't update their maps because they are discouraged by bad reviews.

perhaps a new map section should be created

beta testing

a section 'awaiting updates' maps go where the public who like beta testing can go test their maps

I find that after the reviews I would update my map and get reviewed again, only for the review to prove my map with more errors.

a beta tester could provide a good map maker with constant reliable error checks as the map is updated.

there are a lot of people who like to beta test, but perhaps if we encouraged people to beta test it should increase traffic to this site

meaning more possible reviewers moderators and activity :)

maybe in just dreaming, but it's worth a shot

thank you for listening.
 

Shar Dundred

Hosted Project: LoA
Level 74
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
5,971
Upload your map in the "Map Development" section like the rest of us.

Either that (I got my tester that way) or, if people are searching for beta testers, just go to the Project Recruitment forum.


I don't see a need for an extra beta map section just to make people feel like they've at least reached the Map Section somehow.
 
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
why not have an automatic system that forwards all maps to that section?

but the point being

you are cleaning out the pending section.

I guess it would just mean a bigger beta test area, but at least the game no longer crowds the map section
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

I think it is an interesting idea. A separate section for maps that are beyond basic development, but reach testing stage, would allow map creators to get feedback and testing reviews instead of official reviews and 'Needs Fix' status.
It would be much more less work for as well map moderators and official reviewers.

Tho, most users ( especially new that aren't familiar with Hive yet) don't know about the map development forum or don't bother posting their project there.
I fear even a big, red notification at map uploading would not prevent users from uploading maps to the map section instead posting them in the map development section.

I don't think it is necessarily needed, there are many maps that get continuous feedback at the map development section, reviews and bug report. Nonetheless, it might be a good addition.
 
People can make threads in map dev to get beta testers. But they don't. The issue is that people publish maps that aren't polished or thoroughly tested. If they are seeking testers, then they should make a thread about it. They should only submit it to the repository when they think it is ready.

I think the main issue is that a lot of people don't care to have testers. To them, players and testers are one in the same. They get caught up in the excitement of having completed the map, and they'll quickly submit it. Half the time they won't even stop to type up a proper description.

The map development forum is one of the most thriving forums here, so I don't think we need to split things up. If you post your map there and you have a good presentation, people will certainly try it out. That is what that whole section is for. :)

EDIT: As for needs fix vs. rejected, I don't think mods will even check 'needs fix'. When the maps are updated, they're automatically switched to pending. So it shouldn't matter if the 'needs fix' or 'rejected' sections are filled with clutter. In fact, there isn't much of a difference between the two sections--they kinda serve similar purposes. Rejection just tends to be more final or grave.
 

Kazeon

Hosted Project: EC
Level 34
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
3,449
I think the main issue is that a lot of people don't care to have testers. To them, players and testers are one in the same. They get caught up in the excitement of having completed the map, and they'll quickly submit it. Half the time they won't even stop to type up a proper description.

The map development forum is one of the most thriving forums here, so I don't think we need to split things up. If you post your map there and you have a good presentation, people will certainly try it out. That is what that whole section is for. :)

Doesn't work well for me. I care about getting tester, but never made it work. I made a quite appealing presentation but no one came. I wrote "please, give feedbacks" everywhere but still no one came..... and come. I requested "please, help me with the project" everywhere, no one helped (except Ardenian), even I personally messaged some people and got ignored most of times.

The map dev and recruitment forum is way too dead, or at least only for me, so either the map section.

Wait, I think this is the whole different problem.

EDIT:
I forgot to conclude, yeah, I agree with the new section idea. It would be really helpful for trashed people like me.
 
Last edited:
But will making a new section that serves the same purpose help the problem? Map development is intended to be there so people can give feedback, beta test, and help out with projects. If it is considered dead, then perhaps people have lost interest in those things.

I suppose my question is: what will a new section offer that the current forum doesn't? I guess the novelty would cause some hype, but that would fade in time.
 
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
I think the problem with the map development section is that people go there expecting a map that hasn't yet been made

development kinda speaks with too much meaning

but if people go to a beta testing section where they know someone submitted a map for approval but got rejected

they will feel the maps they download are more complete, more ready for testing and more fun.

besides a beta testing section, we need to make beta testing it's self more rewarding.

just like we have titles for 'official reviewer' and the perks that come along with being a moderator. we should have titles for beta testers and some authority we can give to them in the hive community.

perhaps it will even serve to attract more to the hive, remove maps from development and encourage map makers to progress.

'official beta tester!'

would be a great addition to the hive. assigning people with control over accelerating the achievement of hive map quality.

as well as helping map makers feel more comfortable at supported within the community. able to find their beta testers more readily.

perhaps a goal we should strive for most, is a stronger happier hive family.
 

Ralle

Owner
Level 79
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
10,181
I am thinking of something a little different. How about a maps section where its your choice to submit a map for review? There are maps and there are maps submitted for review and there are approved maps. But you can decide not to.This will give us a combination of epicwar and hive. I am sure not everyone even want their maps in the approved section or want to put up with getting a review. This would relieve stress both on the map moderator and the user. I haven't thought this through. It was just an idea.
 
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
I don't know Ralle

that's a bit of a tricky one.

on the one hand I would love that because it would mean my map is public

yet at the same time it would mean an excess of junk maps here on the hive, even if they were separate from hive approved maps.

I vote for agreement.

simple because it would take my map out of the rejection list.

but at the same time I know it's bad news because I now won't feel any need to update ever again.

hmm

I want more then just a map

I want a good and popular map.
 
Last edited:

Rheiko

Spell Reviewer
Level 25
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
4,121
This was my main purpose of making beta tester group but it turned out unexpected because of having so many obstacles thus I couldn't test beta maps freely and the members aren't into beta-testing anymore or so I see though they used to test lots of beta maps when first I came here.

For the new section for testing beta maps, I agree with PnF since it does serve the same purpose as map development section. Map development was very active though unlike now and recruitment section was pretty much dead like now. We just need some people to make it lively again, I guess.

About ralle's idea, I don't know but if it would mean an excess of junk maps in THW then I would prefer no since it's corrupting this beautiful place.
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

I am thinking of something a little different. How about a maps section where its your choice to submit a map for review? There are maps and there are maps submitted for review and there are approved maps. But you can decide not to.This will give us a combination of epicwar and hive. I am sure not everyone even want their maps in the approved section or want to put up with getting a review. This would relieve stress both on the map moderator and the user. I haven't thought this through. It was just an idea.

I agree with Rheiko here.
If everyone could upload a map without a need to approve it or a check of whether it meets certain quality standards, we would have a spam of, without wanting to be offensive, low-quality maps. For this purpose, epicwar exists and additionally, map creators can upload their maps to makemehost, I don't think they really check the suggested maps.

But, allowing the same for Hive means to have a big loss in standard.
Then we could also think about an additional icon section where icons can be uploaded no matter of their quality or whether they hurt current uploading rules. Same for skins, spells and models.
It might be a good idea, as some users created decent resources that are not approvable, like Ujimasa Hojo's resources, but I think that these sub-sections would be spammed and hardly anyone would bother anymore to create resources that meet a certain quality standard.

Why should I bother creating a complicated resource because the rules don't allow simple ones, or ones that lack particular things, when I just can spam another sub-section with these simple resources ?
 
Can we just somehow merge Map Development and Map Section?

Honestly, I'm against epicwar idea thingy.
As with myself being a 2 year map reviewer (around that I guess, 2013-2015), it would be a disgrace to see such action. Reducing our quality by let's see... Over 30%?

In other hand, I'm disappointed with people who easily quits once facing a harsh review, where areas I deemed it's NOT that harsh, I would prefer to say it's that they lack the mental needed to engage users who brings such reviews, where you really need them to improve. I find the rules still considered LOW compared to Warcraft 3 Campaigns. Don't get me started here, some people already know how strict the rules there.

about the official beta tester, I would prefer to utilize the group Rheiko created in the past. Using that as a base for startup can be useful. They should be focused on handling map development forum maps as the beta tester that users can recruit. Somehow, we can later split apart between Map and Map Dev Moderators.
But I doubt it's a good idea.

PurgeandFire said:
EDIT: As for needs fix vs. rejected, I don't think mods will even check 'needs fix'. When the maps are updated, they're automatically switched to pending. So it shouldn't matter if the 'needs fix' or 'rejected' sections are filled with clutter. In fact, there isn't much of a difference between the two sections--they kinda serve similar purposes. Rejection just tends to be more final or grave.
We can say that Rejection means there's no turning back. It's HIGHLY UNLIKELY that once stated as Rejected, you'll escape it.
But a Needs Fix map can escape the status and gain approval.
The simplest way to say it.

For this topic, I'll side with Rheiko, Ardenian, apcrabnightlive, and PurgeandFire with their views. I'm against this sub forum creation, since Map Development does the purpose.
 
I disagree of course being that currently useless maps are being approved.

and how inactive the site has become

and the fact that it's near impossible to find a beta tester.

Really, currently useless map being approved? By far, the current ones are the one of the most strict generation of Map Reviewers, as far as I can tell.

The site is quite alive actually, just that you need to see other forums more.

Near impossible? Try and consider http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...-funmap-evening-map-suggestion-thread-233026/ for a change.
 
Last edited:
Level 29
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
1,557
Hive standards
The only standard i can see here is that we dont have any standards.
Im not stating this in a degaretory manner, fe. an quick glance over the icons section will tell you that.
Some artists like to overdo their influence to an point their resource is totally outstanding and thus when used in the game stands out as alien.
Resources as such arent that much usable outside of total conversion projects, as all the default icons are drawn within an certain style, or only if the author provides an full set drawn in the same style.

It might be a good idea, as some users created decent resources that are not approvable, like Ujimasa Hojo's resources...
Im certain that not all visitors to the site have the patience to blatter through forum pages to find one resource they require, that has been made and despite being useful, could not belong into the downloads section due to some rule that is more of an hindrance than an benefit.

...an additional icon section where icons can be uploaded no matter of their quality or whether they hurt current uploading rules. Same for skins, spells and models.
If such an section got opened i wouldnt care if all resources within have to mandatory get 1 out of 5 to be there, aslong as what i have made can now reach others to be used its fine and all good for me, as thats what i can really care about.

Just because the resource i have made happent to not correspond to an certain perception of art doesnt make it any lesser than, just as its not rendering it greater than any else. It is what it is.

Why should I bother creating a complicated resource because the rules don't allow simple ones, or ones that lack particular things, when I just can spam another sub-section with these simple resources ?

People arent making high-quality resources because the section isnt allowing low-quality resources, they are making high-quality resources because they want to make beatiful high-quality resources.
And who are we to tell people what they want to do ? Im saying hive should perhaps laxen its tight judgemental approach on what actually belongs into the gallery.
 
Last edited:
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
game play wise I can't stand playing them

they irritate me so much

today I played tiny wars

which is a battle arena where you can't physically touch your opponents but instead have to throw rocks at them

which is a 3 click action

find a rock
activate the ability while standing next to it
click where you desire the rock to land

a human can not seriously be expected to compete with a machine in that instance

it'd infuriating

many many top 20 maps are like this

the current game holding the position of 1st place is the most rubbish and frustrating game to play.

the quality of games being approved are no were near how they used to be before

compare' the chosen one' to any other game on the hive and tell me why it's not currently in the number on position other then the fact that it's not new

it means regardless of quality

new and flashy Is what hive has adapted its self for.

not good

but cheap
 

Rui

Rui

Level 41
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
7,550
(...) and recruitment section was pretty much dead like now. (...)
Which is why I closed it back when I administrated the development domain. No idea why it is still open.

I agree. We came up with reviews for a reason, it would be weird to create this double-standard.

Can we just somehow merge Map Development and Map Section?
This.

I. One of the problems of this forum is that its purposes are overlapping those of the map section and the Project Recruitment.Sometimes, you have a map development thread, then you post the map and you'll essentially have 2 active threads where people are doing the same thing: commenting on the map. Sometimes, you'll have 3 threads because there's one in Project Recruitment as well, but people didn't know so you'll have recruitment and beta testing discussion split up among the three.This is one of the reasons why I locked the project recruitment forum, as the issue calls for a deeper solution.
II. The other problem is that both Map Section and Map Development threads tend to grow enormous — back when I moderated that forum, I ended up cleaning those threads of over 100 pages, and a lot of the time it's just people praising new content or finding other means to communicate.This is mainly due to the fact that some projects grow big, but they don't get a forum of their own. The result is the same as if you went to any of our project forums and merged all the threads in 1: it's utter chaos and confusion.

To solve the first problem, we need to define a single thread where discussions take place. This could be resolved by implementing, on the map submission page, a one-line field for the author to write the URL of a map development thread. If a map is submitted with this field AND it isn't null AND it is a valid page within the Hive, the map thread is locked for commenting and the link is automatically inserted at the bottom of the map presentation box.This solution, however, introduces two other problems in the current hive section system:
  • Reviews have to be arranged by moderators by moving a more recent post to the map section and marking it as review, requiring a reviewer to make a post somewhere in the site.
  • Further aggravates problem II.

I believe the solution to problem II can be achieved by extending the concept of thread. This special thread could have sub-threads or branches, which are partitions (for simplicity of view and moderation) of the thread's posts — every post belongs to exactly 1 branch.Every thread has a global view which contains all the posts ordered by date (like the current threads), regardless of the branch they're in. Users can opt to view the posts belonging to a certain branch by relying on tabs at the top of the thread, similarly to browser tabs.This scheme would bring benefits in the management of threads:
(+) Authors could create different sub-threads each with its own purpose: balance discussion, new version releases, general praise, beta testing, etc.
(+) A branch could serve to automatically log moderator or author actions on the thread (would log my "~400 posts deleted" messages =P)
(-) An interface decision needs to be made in order to avoid a user from getting confused when the branch pool grows too big. Imagine the author opts to create a branch for every version release. Threads should be ordered not by name, but by recency of last post, like ordinary threads in a forum.​

The creation of this concept raises the following questions:
  1. Q: Who has the ability to create new branches?
    I'd leave it to moderators and the thread owner, but exclude all other users. This prevents users from ensuing chaos in an author's thread. Note that the OWNER is not necessarily the author of the map. Otherwise, imagine a situation where the author is gone — the thread would have to be recreated because its branch creation permissions cannot be reassigned.

  2. Q: Does the thread possess initial branches?
    Perhaps the Hive could make a norm and give each thread an initial collection of branches (balance discussion, version releases and changelogs, etc.). This would better standardize the organization of a thread and its branches.

  3. Q: How do posts end up in branches? Does the user choose a branch to post in?
    Yes, of course. Similarly, there's the problem of simple threads, which also need to be posted in the right forum.
    To avoid a notable increase in post submission time, the branch collection should be displayed as a collapsed radio button list (perhaps preset one if you're replying to another post), instead of a menu, which needs to be pointed at, clicked for collapsing, then the option chosen, possibly relying on scrolling.

  4. Q: Can posts be moved from the branch they're in? Who can do that?
    Yes, by the owner and the staff members.

  5. Q: Can branches be merged?
    Yes, by the owner and the staff members.

  6. Q: How does a user know which branch a post belongs to?
    The user could switch branch views by clicking in tabs, similar to those of a browser. As for the global view (to see all posts in all branches), there would have to be a way to display that somehow.
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,067
Yea but even if we create such function as Rui suggested we still have the problem that the Map Development has few visitors.

Myself I have started 7 threads and received around 50 answers in total. However only one of projects that I were talking about really took off. So, atleast for me, starting a thread is way too easy and simple. People tend to post threads about projects they haven't started (which I find the idea) but the forum then fills up with all the threads started.

Maybe there could be some function called "Highlighted Project". It could be either decided by some group of people or automatically put on project/thread that has received the most interest in the last let's say 2 weeks.

However, the same project/thread can't be highlighted again in some time so the project isn't always the same. Maybe there could be even further opportunities if your project gets highlighted. Maybe a small article on the news page or something (we just recently got the resource highlight).

Instead of creating a news post for a single project it could be possible instead to highlight top 3 or so projects, telling a bit about each of them to get people interested in them.

There is a con tho, people might start to read more and more the "rated" threads and ignore the less interesting threads. However I think there is potential in this kind of system as people would see more effort when creating the threads and presenting their projects. Also if some projects would get on the Highlight and on news people I think more users might start checking the Map Development section.


About getting more active beta testers... phew that is a bit harder. I think though that people who get interested in projects are willing to become beta testers. Also the fun night evening (or what is it) where users play some maps is a good place to beta test a map I don't know however if that is possible or how likely it is?
 

Ralle

Owner
Level 79
Joined
Oct 6, 2004
Messages
10,181
Remixer said:
Instead of creating a news post for a single project it could be possible instead to highlight top 3 or so projects, telling a bit about each of them to get people interested in them.
Everyone is welcome to submit news to the News Submission forum.

Rui. You are suggesting that we implement Reddit or Hacker News. Horrible UI's. Sorry, this won't happen. We may want to merge a few forums though.

Allowing to submit maps without moderation wouldn't be a loss in quality as those maps wouldn't be in the same section. So it's a moot point.
 
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
I got my first beta tester today!!!!

man am I pumped

I just want to get home and improve my map so bad!

it's awesome having a beta tester

thing is, I found him by chance

not through any category or link.

beta tester users need to be highlighted in bold!
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,067
I got my first beta tester today!!!!

man am I pumped

I just want to get home and improve my map so bad!

it's awesome having a beta tester

thing is, I found him by chance

not through any category or link.

beta tester users need to be highlighted in bold!

I also thought about making a public "portfolio". You could show off your work there and tell what you have done. You can already do it with image galleries and pastebin but I think we could use a official port folio.

You could for example add text, images, insert files such as maps, models, skins... in there without people having to search through different boards and search for one user's work.

People could give feedback on user's portfolios via private message. This way users on hive could find users that create things they are in need of or of which they like.

For example if I am free for beta testing I could check a field in my portfolio "Available of Testing" or if I can help with terraining I could check a field "Available For Terraining" other users could then search "User Library" for people who have checked the field "Open for..." in order to find users.

You could also send personal requests to users, for example I could search for an illustrator for my map project and contact a person who does illustration and shows his/her artwork in the portfolio. If I like what I see I'll contact that user.

Currently you need to find a user via requests/the board but sometimes I miss the opportunity to directly contact interesting user.
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

For example if I am free for beta testing I could check a field in my portfolio "Available of Testing" or if I can help with terraining I could check a field "Available For Terraining" other users could then search "User Library" for people who have checked the field "Open for..." in order to find users.
I have to say, I kind of like the idea.
But, I would rather say, to make it not too complicated, that the 'About Me' section could include this information and additionally, a search option to search for users with certain ticked information.

Well, I myself think the 'About Me' could greatly expanded, but neither I want to make Hive a Warcraft Facebook nor I want to go off-topic now.

You could also send personal requests to users, for example I could search for an illustrator for my map project and contact a person who does illustration and shows his/her artwork in the portfolio. If I like what I see I'll contact that user.
Well, there are enough options for this, in my opinion. You can use the request forum or the project recruitment, therefore I don't think we need an additional section as you suggested. You can write to users if you want to ask them to join your project.

Basically, the portfolio seems like a double to me. Everything in the portfolio already exists in some way, doesn't it ?
Most users aren't available for new projects and tasks either, so I think there would hardly some use of it.
In the past some users created such 'portfolios', as they posted threads like the 'Simple Model Workshop' by Kaizer or some 2D workshops. They are rather dead now ( except Kaizer's one), but to be honest, I don't think there are many users who are talented enough to open a workshop AND who are not occupied with own projects and work.
 

Rui

Rui

Level 41
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
7,550
Yea but even if we create such function as Rui suggested we still have the problem that the Map Development has few visitors.
(...)
This is a problem you can't solve by implementing new features. Sure you could call attention to it somehow, but changes in looks and venue won't cut it. That's why I've said, for some time, that betting everything on Hive 2's fresh looks is a long shot to renewing the community. If anything, people who're already here will leave because they don't like it.

(...)
Rui. You are suggesting that we implement Reddit or Hacker News. Horrible UI's. Sorry, this won't happen. We may want to merge a few forums though.
(...)
I don't frequent Reddit, so I wouldn't know. I've taken a look and I'm not sure that's what I'm speaking of. Regardless, the UI is up for discussion. I never said it had to be like site X. Actually, the idea popped up in my head and I'd say it's original if not for the fact it's not so hard to come up with it — certainly, others have run into this problem before.

Allowing to submit maps without moderation wouldn't be a loss in quality as those maps wouldn't be in the same section. So it's a moot point.
It would be a loss in standards. Actually, it'd create a double standard. Is there a reason why this thought hit you? I suspect the actual process worthy of being called reviewing stopped after me and bounty_hunter2 abandoned the job, but I've always said we don't need to keep up with the review system forever. If you are worried about the lack of moderators or their load, you can (again, like I've suggested in the past) move the reviewing job to users or just abandon that system, though the fact we're more lenient than Wc3C while having SOME standards, unlike EpicWar, is what's made our Map Section unique.

I also thought about making a public "portfolio". You could show off your work there and tell what you have done. You can already do it with image galleries and pastebin but I think we could use a official port folio.
(...)
My previous idea could cover for that and make it automatic to some extent, but you're right, of course.
I've seen sites that supported EA BFME and BFME II mods providing the authors with web pages of their own. I had toyed with this idea when I was admin. Even if it meant solo managing project leaders' web pages and getting a request ever other day, it would incite users and better support our hosted projets (and help me master HTML/CSS/JS =P). Unfortunately, I didn't get the chance to put it in practice.
Though perhaps you meant portfolio (please don't call it that? That word brings bad memories :cry:) on a smaller scale.
 
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
perhaps what is being said here Is that all these other means of doing already possible functions, are an updated method of doing them.

what I mean to say is

perhaps the whole of hive needs to forget it can already do all these suggestions, and instead learn to do them again with a new more modern feel.

why?

so much has come about since the creation of hive.
 
Level 24
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,783
Honestly, I'm against epicwar idea thingy.
As with myself being a 2 year map reviewer (around that I guess, 2013-2015), it would be a disgrace to see such action. Reducing our quality by let's see... Over 30%?

There are more standards demanded of a map now than in any point in history.
Standards however do not equal quality. The map section's idea of "higher standard" seems to be ever narrowing checklist what a map should (very specifically) contain in the reviewer's opinion.
Also, the description/screenshot tax has been on a rise since 2010, yet map quality hasn't fundamentally gotten better. Gee, perhaps the map section's standards don't actually indicate map quality in any meaningful way.

On topic; people have been using the map-dev forum as a beta-test environment since time memorial. Heck, a lot of users used to and still do upload half done maps and then complete them over (or even after) the approval process. Truth be told, if you don't mention that your map is beta, nobody knows.
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,067
On topic; people have been using the map-dev forum as a beta-test environment since time memorial. Heck, a lot of users used to and still do upload half done maps and then complete them over (or even after) the approval process. Truth be told, if you don't mention that your map is beta, nobody knows.

I uploaded my puzzle map, Dungeon Secrets on development section first. I got very little feedback and then I decided it'd get more attention on actual map board. Result: it did.

I think it could be allowed to upload beta versions, however the maps should be pretty much playable already. Also the user should have had an existing thread on map development section of the same map for at least 2 weeks before getting permission to try the same at official map section.

Moderators however could reject the map, if they think it's not meeting the requirements and also if they think that the map is not progressed enough.

Unfinished maps would only show in "Pending" section or in new "Unfinished" section.

I think this would be worth to try. =)
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,067
I...wonder

do I just need to ask for a beta testers

Yes! Just ask, it's enough. You can ask people if they wish to test your map and help you out with progress. If no one is interested you are doing something wrong: maybe your presentation isn't good or then you are asking wrong people.
 
I agree with Rheiko here.
If everyone could upload a map without a need to approve it or a check of whether it meets certain quality standards, we would have a spam of, without wanting to be offensive, low-quality maps. For this purpose, epicwar exists and additionally, map creators can upload their maps to makemehost, I don't think they really check the suggested maps.

But, allowing the same for Hive means to have a big loss in standard.
Then we could also think about an additional icon section where icons can be uploaded no matter of their quality or whether they hurt current uploading rules. Same for skins, spells and models.
It might be a good idea, as some users created decent resources that are not approvable, like Ujimasa Hojo's resources, but I think that these sub-sections would be spammed and hardly anyone would bother anymore to create resources that meet a certain quality standard.

Why should I bother creating a complicated resource because the rules don't allow simple ones, or ones that lack particular things, when I just can spam another sub-section with these simple resources ?

Agreed. Except for the last part; the motivation behind making resources should be to create something that people will like and use, not just to stop when you've satisfied the minimum requirements to upload. I believe that if our standards were lowered, the vast majority of our members would still continue to submit resources of the same quality as before. I still think we don't need to lower our standards, though; there are plenty of places to download maps that are both well-known and unfiltered. Hive can continue as it is, and anything that isn't accepted here can always be uploaded somewhere else for people to use; or even still uploaded here but on the forums.

But as for reviews, anything that is good enough to receive a 2/5 from a moderator (so long as it does not violate the rules) should be approved. If it's bad enough to receive a 1/5 from a moderator, then we don't need it here, and if a moderator is rejecting work that is 2/5 quality on the basis that it needs to be better (assuming it does not violate the rules), then such moderator should reconsider their expectations, as their job is not to ensure that only the best work is kept, but simply to keep the garbage out.
 
Level 19
Joined
Jul 2, 2011
Messages
2,161
it's basically impossible to find a beta tester

everyone wants to be a reviewer

it's cooler

and I can see why so many people think so

if your a beta tester you get nothing

if your a moderator you get power

it's the easiest choice to make
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,067
it's basically impossible to find a beta tester

everyone wants to be a reviewer

it's cooler

and I can see why so many people think so

if your a beta tester you get nothing

if your a moderator you get power

it's the easiest choice to make

I am not a moderator. I am map reviewer. I do betatest maps if people contact me (also if the map seems interesting). If you ask me to review a melee map of yours I will 100% check it.

If you send me unfinished map that takes 2+ hours to play, then... probably not.

I am not a moderator, I've been asked to be one and I am not a moderator. I help moderators on Map section from time to time, I don't want power, you do nothing with power on Hive.
 

Remixer

Map Reviewer
Level 33
Joined
Feb 19, 2011
Messages
2,067
what about acknowledgement and a sense of appreciation

show the beta tester so of that

You must realize that some people often select a certain group to beta test their map and for that reason it's often hard to know who has tested and what they have tested.

Also I think beta testing will have higher quality if no reward is granted (officially). Otherwise users might start testing maps with low quality results. Testing is hard and one who does it must have skill to do it.

I also think it's only authors business how he will reward the testers. For me, if there is an ambitious project I am satisfied if I get some credit for helping out.
 

Rui

Rui

Level 41
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
7,550
A reference for my last post, where I defend a more user-side review system.

There are more standards demanded of a map now than in any point in history.
Standards however do not equal quality. The map section's idea of "higher standard" seems to be ever narrowing checklist what a map should (very specifically) contain in the reviewer's opinion.
Also, the description/screenshot tax has been on a rise since 2010, yet map quality hasn't fundamentally gotten better. Gee, perhaps the map section's standards don't actually indicate map quality in any meaningful way.
Just as a reminder, I never did anything to enable this grand description and screenshot gallery requisites that I'm aware a few people demand from map authors. The problems you speak of have come to light before[1][2] (denounced by you too, apparently[3]).

(...) Truth be told, if you don't mention that your map is Abeta, nobody knows.
Again, this wouldn't be a problem if maps were actually tested through and reviewed properly.
 
Level 24
Joined
Oct 12, 2008
Messages
1,783
Just as a reminder, I never did anything to enable this grand description and screenshot gallery requisites that I'm aware a few people demand from map authors. The problems you speak of have come to light before[1][2] (denounced by you too, apparently[3]).

I never did blame you.
The only people who could be considered vaguely "responsible" for the trend is Kobas-/Apocaypse. And truth be told, they did it out of an honest interest to improve the map section. The unintended side effects were by people trying to "emulate" them as map mods and burying maps under their repeated/generic/pointless comments.

I dont really mind it exists, Ive accepted that this is pretty much standard operating procedure on THW. I just wonder what certain users are thinking when they are trying further reduce map approvals in a year when uploads are at an all time low.

Again, this wouldn't be a problem if maps were actually tested through and reviewed properly.

I don't view this as a problem. Just pointing out to those who need testers, that this is and has always been an option.
 
There are more standards demanded of a map now than in any point in history.
Standards however do not equal quality. The map section's idea of "higher standard" seems to be ever narrowing checklist what a map should (very specifically) contain in the reviewer's opinion.
Also, the description/screenshot tax has been on a rise since 2010, yet map quality hasn't fundamentally gotten better. Gee, perhaps the map section's standards don't actually indicate map quality in any meaningful way.

That's a pretty good point.

Reviewers have gotten to the point where they are mechanically reviewing a map with a "system", a checklist, just giving it points for each category, and if it doesn't do everything they want, it gets a bad rating, even when the things they're rating it for aren't specifically relevant to the map they're reviewing. The actual gameplay of a map is usually as little as 20%-30% of the points in their review. They use lots of fancy formatting and UI headings and lots of color to make their reviews look "professional", but in reality the content of their review is often worthless. Sometimes they haven't even really played the map. I often see maps that are easily 4/5 or even 5/5 (and that's by my standards, I'm known to be very difficult to get a 5/5 from) quality receive 2/5 or 3/5 from these overdone reviews that are placing too much weight on categories that don't really hold much weight in the map they're playing. Oftentimes they'll even take points off for something they assumed was a flaw during their 5 minutes of gameplay, when it was actually an intentional aspect of gameplay that they were misinterpreting because they didn't really play the game. Using point-based categories for reviews causes mapmakers to "mainstream" their maps, appealing to every category that reviewers seem to base their ratings on, instead of simply making the map they want to make and excelling at the specific element they want to focus on in their map. This is another issue with category-based reviews; you can't reward a map that places all of its weight in one category; it simply receives the maximum of 20% points in that category and gets a 0 in everything else, receiving a 1/5 and being voted for rejection despite being an incredible map.

In my opinion, you should never use a "system" to review something. You should thoroughly examine every aspect of it, find what's good about it, find what's bad about it, and give it a rating based on how good you really think it is overall. Using a formula never gives a fair rating because you're giving a specific amount of importance to each aspect of the map, when those aspects might carry more or less weight in that particular map. For example, terrain and immersion are very important in an RPG, but in a tower war map they would be more of a "bonus". Imported content is nice, but I admire a map that is able to look nice without it. These days it seems every reviewer is factoring use of imported content in as 20-30% of their rating, which is an entire thumb.

It all boils down to this: the goal most reviewers have has changed. Their reviews used to be for the map creator. Now they're to impress the community with formalities that don't actually help anyone. That's the initial cause. This cause then lead to elaborate, formula-based reviews. Formula-based reviewing ruins a review entirely. Every time I see a review with a full-page UI that's split into arbitrary categories (unless they put it inside of hidden tags and offer comment outside of it), I just scroll past the attention whore and move on to the next comment.

To any reviewers I may have offended: This doesn't mean you're a bad human being. You probably never realized you were doing it wrong. But you can always make the change, from flashy, overdone, elaborate, but formulaic and inaccurate, reviews, to reviewing things more fairly with the weight of each aspect being dependent on how crucial that element is to the map. Sure, it won't look as impressive since you won't be able to use the same premade UI for your review every time, and your review will be less likely to be chosen by moderators or +repped by users, but it will be more useful to the creator since you'll be really speaking to them about the map instead of just satisfying the formal requirements of a review. You can still use categories and review effectively, but you have to change your categories based on the map, and instead of allocating points to each category, simply list pros and cons under each category. The amount (and significance) of the pros and cons under each category should determine the weight of that category in determining your overall review. In this way maps that focus on a particular element don't "max out" their points in that category and have the rest of their effort go to waste.

Get your priorities straight. A bunch of +rep and fame on an old forum for an old game means nothing. What really matters is whether or not you're helping anyone in the way that you contribute. Would you rather be congratulated by people who didn't even make what you're reviewing, based on the formatting of your review, or would you rather be thanked by the actual creator of what you're reviewing for providing helpful insight into the map by accurately and fairly reviewing the map?

/end rant
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top