Avatar 0.59

[Etzer]

Since my last review was at 0.14c i will give a new review. This time i will include ALL factions.

Etzers 2nd review of Avatar (v. 0.23)

Loading screen :
This is the very same as the last time, very impressive, good describing.
5/5

Gameplay :
The start with R.D.A. were hard, but i got the hang. Soon enough i had gotten a base up and running. The gameplay were not really fun, but enough to keep me.
The Avatar were also quite funny, especially the Avatar interact, and quest menu.
The Observer slot were quite. Experiencing.
4/5

Terrain :
The terrain is MUCH better now. Although it seems like the trees are just dropped at random.
3/5

Systems :
Multiboard :
The multiboard is still really good.

Trees :
1200 hp and 2400 hp. Nothing special, just for harvesting. Same as the last time.
Unobtanium :

Nice system, right click, and you get 6 gold per second, untill it dies (after a while /5-15 minutes depending on the number of units ordered to harvest), i really liked this, for some reason . This is the very same as last time.

Random tips, and dialogues between Avatars and the R.D.A.'s. And Avatars and Na'vi. Very good
4/5

Models :
The winner here. Awesome models with "building animations", death animations, and "WIP" animation (The stone gatherer thing moves it's gatherer thing when it collects. Epic!)
I liked how you could see how the buildings were slowly build behind the cages (fences, building structure, building skeleton)
The intro cinematic were good too. It were like a bunch of ODST's

Avatar model : It weren't really good, although it is hard to get a good model.
5/5

OTHERS :
Why is the Dryad called a Dryad? Why not Na'vi?
Need a better model for Avatar.
Need AI, although this is HARD.

OVERALL RATING : 4,2/5, and rep+.

 

[Dj0z]

A new version already? That was fast.

* An issue with the Sentries: A very strange thing happens if you automate them while next to an obstacle: they will suddenly jump to the nearest available open spot (which may be a single square away, to make room for the worker who's just been unloaded; or a much greater distance, if building in uncleared forest). Now as far as I can tell, this only happens if the original worker hasn't been moved away after building (is standing closer to it than any workers sent to repair-build) and if there are obstacles surrounding it (pathing maps touch).
** Also if peasants repair-build, one automatically enters once built. Don't know if this is worth changing or not though...
* Weird bug with the Remove trees ability: Clicking on it (to bring up the AoE circle, not necessarily removing stumps) makes trees show up on the entire map (That is, they're in color rather than fog-of-war gray). It also seems to make the area brighter if used at night (though that could be an illusion because of the trees). Also the tooltip needs its "I"s capitalized.

Yes, i'm taking advantage of the weekend to spend time doing the most needed changes another one with the fix for "Automate" and other needed things is coming soon aswell.

**That bug is known, it happens if the unit who started constructing receives a right-click order on what he's constructing, if that building can load units (like Sentry tower).
This usually happens when you have a group of workers selected, you tell one to build, then you right-click that building to tell the others to help (but the first builder is still selected).
Solution: shift-left-click the first builder to deselect him before right-clicking to tell the others to help. I'm not sure i would code something to fix that.

*The graphic bug you're mentioning is pretty bizarre, and i've looked for the cause for quite a few versions. I'll check out "Remove dead trees" to see if it's actually that and let you know.

 

[cleavinghammer]

It's not really a problem, seeing as it doesn't leave the tower undefended until you can get the money to automatize it.

 

[Tleno]

There's aslo a small bug that nobody actually can enter the Barracks, because they taking on-board range is smaller than the Barracks themselves.

 

[Etzer]

I have edited my last post. Heres a cookie ^^

 

[Dj0z]

@cleavinghammer: For towers, yea, but for Barracks it could be annoying.

@tleno: Is that so? I'll check that out.

@Etzer: Thank you ^^ a few replies to your review:
-Terrain will keep getting improved!
-Tree hp is not only for harvesting, it also sets the strength of the effect, when Avatars use Interact on them. Trees with more HP will give more healing, for example;
-I am still looking for better models, and hopefully we'll have genuine Na'vi and Avatars soon enough;
-Dryads are extra units not in the movie, for gameplay purposes currently.

There will most likely be a new version by tomorrow.

 

[Tleno]

So you are gonna get rid of those ugly muchrooms? You could search for a suitable tree in UTM map. Ypou know, Ultimate terraining map, it's thread is somewhere in a hive. Thread, not a resource.

By the way, will there we some kind of Napalm bombers for humans? I mean its a lush jungle planet, wouldn't it be easier to fight there if you could just burn all trees?

And by the way, maybe that living tree (I always forget it's name...) should also have a spell pack to manipulate animals? You know, like "Prey" that would target a human unit and all the animals not far away from that unit would attack it?
Or "Animal rage" that would buff all the animals in target area? Or maybe some kind of "Maiting Pheromones" that could temporarily increase the animal respawn rate?

 

[Dj0z]

So you are gonna get rid of those ugly muchrooms? You could search for a suitable tree in UTM map. Ypou know, Ultimate terraining map, it's thread is somewhere in a hive. Thread, not a resource.

By the way, will there we some kind of Napalm bombers for humans? I mean its a lush jungle planet, wouldn't it be easier to fight there if you could just burn all trees?

And by the way, maybe that living tree (I always forget it's name...) should also have a spell pack to manipulate animals? You know, like "Prey" that would target a human unit and all the animals not far away from that unit would attack it?
Or "Animal rage" that would buff all the animals in target area? Or maybe some kind of "Maiting Pheromones" that could temporarily increase the animal respawn rate?

Yes i will, i already had the UTM and i've noted down many doodads in there for use in Avatar.

There will be such things, this is coming soon

Eywa will have an Animal spellbook just like she already has the Flora and Pandorian ones. Thanks for the suggestions to fill it, by the way, i might use them

 

[cleavinghammer]

Barracks can be used as bunkers? This I shall have to check out...

Also, if tanks have an AoE attack, shouldn't they have an attack Ground feature?

If you're open to suggestions about the "Animals" spellbook, will there be a huge "Order Zerg rush"-type spell (with huge mana/Avatar level/wait-to-use-time requirements, of course) ?

 

[Tleno]

Barracks can be used as bunkers? This I shall have to check out...

Also, if tanks have an AoE attack, shouldn't they have an attack Ground feature?

If you're open to suggestions about the "Animals" spellbook, will there be a huge "Order Zerg rush"-type spell (with huge mana/Avatar level/wait-to-use-time requirements, of course) ?

Wait, you want lots of animlas spawned in one area and becoming hostile to humans? And what about spawning that huge rhino thing?

By the way, maybe you should make these changes:
1. Make animals much more deadly to humans
2. Create special defences for humans that would scare away all the animals, ut wouldn't effect Na'vi. This way, Na'vi could destroy one of these devices, creating a security breach, then co-opearte with that nature tree thing so it would send wild animals trough that breach to the human base.

 

[cleavinghammer]

^ No, I'm thinking an ability that allows you to pull off the same massive attack from the end of the movie, with every single animal on the map charging towards the base (Maybe work it in as a timed mission mode somehow?), though your idea is interesting...

 

[Tleno]

Well, actually maybe some kind of spell that when you cast, all the animals recieve attack move order to the target area?

 

[cleavinghammer]

^ Pretty much, yeah. Only have it repeated because you don't want to see the animals running back to their original positions (like AoS units often end up doing...).

 

[.Forsaken]

Hmm, I've been thinking all along; Why not add an ability to the avatars that simulates those pony-tail-nerve thingies? Could be used on animals that you'd "charmed" and have a, say, 5% chance of making it your mount? Would be easy to make, and would spice things up a bit .

 

[cleavinghammer]

They do, it's their second-level ability (though it isn't presented that way).

 

[Dj0z]

I do not have much time at the moment but i'll take care of all this tomorrow. This brainstorming that you guys are doing there saves me some time

 

[.Forsaken]

They do, it's their second-level ability (though it isn't presented that way).

Well I s'pose interact is sort of the same, but it doesn't really give off the feel I was hoping for. Though, admittedly they'd be too similar, and it might end up more confusing than fun/helpful.

 

[TomiTomo]

i love this map! 5/5 for sure~
some suggestions...
-RDA need some kind of spell or unit that clear tress fast ( doesn't need to make it material, some spell like rival dynasties "Root drying acid" )
-RDA food limit not enough, need MORE ! either increase food limit or decrease food cost ?
-Need more defensive building, like... anti air towers ?
-Make toogle auto remove tree from worker ? kinda annoying to harvest and remove manually...
-Eywa should be able to control 1 or 2 units, my friend is pissed off because eywa doesn't really have a thing to control except the tree of soul.
-Why don't really make a unit 'Pilot' for 1 food cost ? it saves some food cap =)
-there should be walls and electronic gates.
-AMP gunshoot with audio will make it perfect!

some feedback/comments from me and friends that tested this ytd...
-The animals really need a limit, once avatars spammed dryads and titanothere, my base will be flat after 2 wave of them. ( first wave killed half my tanks and make my scorpion copters dying, second wave finish everything )
-I guess big bertha is counted as unit ? dryads entangled my bertha =/
-I saw 2 fish swimming on the ground on the right side of the starting point, not really sure where is it.
-eywa is boring ! nothing to do..... except toying the RDA's with the tree, once RDA finished basing, no more trees to kill, lesser mana gain.
-units that have custom attack, that shows 1-1 attack, cannot attack trees with the custom attack =/ they will only shake the tree ( example scorpion copter )

i guess that's all i remember, i played it ytd night and sleep after 3 game, i only played human, so i think i hav forgotten things that my friends said. i will tell u more if i remember ^^ BTW, LOVE U MAN, I LOVE RIVAL DYNASTIES AND AVATAR~~~

 

[buraxia3]

i love this map !!

 

[Dj0z]

By the way, maybe you should make these changes:
1. Make animals much more deadly to humans
2. Create special defences for humans that would scare away all the animals, ut wouldn't effect Na'vi. This way, Na'vi could destroy one of these devices, creating a security breach, then co-opearte with that nature tree thing so it would send wild animals trough that breach to the human base.

1. Uhhh did you really mean more deadly? 1 Thanator can already eat a half squadron of foot soldiers in the woods... Or maybe you mean viperwolves?
2. Sounds like a plan.

 

[Tleno]

Yes, I just want so humans would be forced to use special devices to protect themselves from hostile enviroment or else they would stand no chance.

 

[Etzer]

I forgot to add
When you question the tree with an Avatar it will say something like "Theese things allows Pandora to breath" ain't that wrong?
Humen CANNOT breath on Pandora.

 

[cleavinghammer]

@ Etzer: It's by analogy with Earth's trees, which recycle carbon dioxyde into oxygen.

@ .Forsaken: No, it's not Interact, it's their other hero ability (available once you hit level 2), Instinctive Persuasion. The more animals you kill, the higher you chance of converting a uniut (animal, Na'vi or RDA) to your side.

 

[Etzer]

@Cleaving,have you seen Avatar? Humen cannot breath on Pandora

 

[cleavinghammer]

In the sense that Pandora's wildlife needs these trees to maintain the correct mix of gas to be able to breathe (in the same way Earth trees allow humans to breathe).

 

[.Forsaken]

*is an idiot for double posting*

 

[.Forsaken]

@Etzer

It isn't wrong. While the humans can't breathe there due to the natural gasses or something; the tree's thrive there! And I think it's safe to assume that the trees on pandora doesn't mind the gas ;P

@ .Forsaken: No, it's not Interact, it's their other hero ability (available once you hit level 2), Instinctive Persuasion. The more animals you kill, the higher you chance of converting a uniut (animal, Na'vi or RDA) to your side.

Oh, well in my rush I mixed up the spells. It's just, to me the "charm" thing just isn't true to the Avatar universe. I mean, you don't go about seeing them Na'vi charming the animals, despite living in harmony with them. If they do anything, they force their will upon them; or engage in "collaboration", you know? tsaheylu... The bond or w/e... I'd redsign it to match the avatar "lore/movie/script".

 

[Dj0z]

Well here's my point of view:
The Instinctive Persuasion spell is not exactly the Tsaheylu, it's more like a try to make friends with someone/something through pure charisma. Like when you go towards a living being with a friendly attitude, it will notice and check you out to see if it trusts you or not. Like a dog, cat, stranger, etc.
This is exactly the reason why the chance of persuasion is based on your level of Charisma.

If a visibly impressive creature comes to you in a friendly (or at least, not attacking you yet) manner, you'd rather make friends with it than fight it, right? That's just what the Thanator did at the end of the movie with Neytiri (and then she could ride it).

That's also sorta what Jake Sully does with the Titanothere and the Thanator at the start: he stares at the titanothere, and they're checking out each other to see if they fight or not. Then the Thanator arrives and does the same with jake (except the Thanator acts way more aggressively).
So you could consider both these events as failed Instinctive Persuasion attempts. And when Jake, Grace and Norm rally the indian doctor and Trudy Chacon (the female copter pilot) to their cause (and also Neytiri, ikrans, direhorses, and others later on), you could say those were successful attempts.


The genuine Tsaheylu may be added soon, i am currently preparing the mount system for Na'vi and Avatars so i might use it for that, and some interactions with Eywa or something.

*I may have not answered all concerns posted in the last 2 pages of comments but i'll re-check later.


EDIT: v0.24 is out, it already includes some of the changes discussed in this topic.

 

[Zilla_Ma_Nilla]

This looks like an amazing game!

 

[cleavinghammer]

* Using Interact on a tree now gets you both "trees allow Pandora to breathe" and "Animals are strong here" message, as well as the XP for both.
* Is there any way to get the Quest teller to update automatically? For example, set the RDA quest to #2 after the Na'vi cutscene.
* I think the Toruk would look better if it wasn't all-red, maybe leave the normal colors?
* I'm still getting the message for improving Battle Rage when using Discover repeatedly on a Titanothere.
** Speaking of Titanotheres, you might want to increase their transport size (along with Thanators); it's kind of difficult to believe the Toruk can carry two of them.
* Would it be possible to have some kind of trigger that shows what's the Toruk is carrying? (Create an Avatar model on the Toruk that looks like it's riding, etc.)
* Na'vi warriors have the same icon for both melee and ranged mode. As the game treats them as separate units, they should have different icons.
* The Dense Armor icon shows up in Eywa's spellbook menus. If it's a building, you should replace the Move and Patrol icons with it.

Will test RDA later.

 

[Dj0z]

* Using Interact on a tree now gets you both "trees allow Pandora to breathe" and "Animals are strong here" message, as well as the XP for both.
* Is there any way to get the Quest teller to update automatically? For example, set the RDA quest to #2 after the Na'vi cutscene.
* I think the Toruk would look better if it wasn't all-red, maybe leave the normal colors?
* I'm still getting the message for improving Battle Rage when using Discover repeatedly on a Titanothere.
** Speaking of Titanotheres, you might want to increase their transport size (along with Thanators); it's kind of difficult to believe the Toruk can carry two of them.
* Would it be possible to have some kind of trigger that shows what's the Toruk is carrying? (Create an Avatar model on the Toruk that looks like it's riding, etc.)
* Na'vi warriors have the same icon for both melee and ranged mode. As the game treats them as separate units, they should have different icons.

Will test RDA later.

*Interact does that? It should be easy to fix. EDIT: It was Discover, but i got your point. Fixed.
*Never thought of that before but yea, it's a good idea to make quests more intuitive.
*The normal one is nice but it just doesn't feel right if the Toruk is not red...
*Okay i'll re-debug that bonus.
**Since Toruk is the first Na'vi carrier i forgot to check transport sizes for Na'vi and animal units. I shall set them all properly in next version.
*For that riding toruk thing, when it transports units i'm considering they're held by its "feet" ya know, not on its back. I'll make a system for mounting it, but only the Avatar will be able to do that.
*Okay i will fix that.

When you test RDA please let me know what you think about Deforestation in details, because opinions so far are pretty radical on that thing (either love or hate).

 

[cleavinghammer]

RDA:

* I'm actually split about the Deforestation: I recognize how useful it is for clearing forests quickly, but it can be somewhat clumsy. If I might make a suggestion: Give the workers Gather and only Slash Cutters the ability, with the option to Gather normally that only appears when Deforestation is inactive (and perhaps make the cleared trees incapable of growing back). The way I see it, it allows the player to choose whether to amass a large amount of resources quickly or prepare the terrain for defense, sacrificing the ability to have lumber close at hand. This will probably require making the Metal Extractors non-infinite though (à la Vespene geysers), so it's up to you.
** I think you should have Deforestation as an autocast-able ability (as the current icons are somewhat misleading).
** Also, building a Metal Foundry requires 4000 Materials, but you only have 3000 left after building the Space Pad. (Presumably you need to use the Requesting Materials drop from your ISV, but I think a more natural response is to send the workers for lumber. Or put in a message reminding you of the ISV's drop capacity.)
* The HQ should have an infobox, as it has an attack.
* I edited my previous post, so you might have missed it: The Dense Armor icon shows up in Eywa's spellbook menus. As it's a building, you should replace the Move and Patrol icons with it.

Less serious issues:
* I know the names are limited for heroes, but SELFRIDGE as a take-charge, lead-from-the-front type? I HATED that little weasel (Okay, rant over).
* The Medic's soundset is... not the best suited.
* About the Toruk (I presume it's the Naga Frost Wyrm skin): Make it less neon-sign flashy, is what I'm asking.
* I had an idea while using the Space Drop: since units can go through the Space Pad, perhaps you could work in a system where any unit standing in the Pad when a drop is made takes tremendous damage/is killed outright when the container lands? It'd go well with the "earthquake" special effect that already occurs.

 

[fancy]

* I had an idea while using the Space Drop: since units can go through the Space Pad, perhaps you could work in a system where any unit standing in the Pad when a drop is made takes tremendous damage/is killed outright when the container lands? It'd go well with the "earthquake" special effect that already occurs.

Awesome idea man!
Not that should make it like a cinematic of the containers landing on wolves at the start!

Edit:If I haven't done this before...+Rep for you Djoz! You make so cool maps but your rep is small

 

[Alfagar]

:d looks osom!

 

[.Forsaken]

The genuine Tsaheylu may be added soon, i am currently preparing the mount system for Na'vi and Avatars so i might use it for that, and some interactions with Eywa or something.

And -that- was exactly what I wanted

 

[Dj0z]

Version 0.25 is out. All hail the Toruk Makto !

 

[buraxia3]

i love this map plz update fast !! xd

 

[cleavinghammer]

Avatars:

* I'm still getting multiple Battle Rage bonuses for Discovering a Titanothere.
* The Toruk Makto seems to work well, but there are problems:
** Instead of having the Avatar levitate himself up when mounting, have the Toruk go down.
** If used repeatedly (mount/dismount), the riding Avatar's name will change, which isn't that big a deal, but you lose all your hero points, which is.
** The Toruk no longer has a portrait.

RDA:

* Something weird I noticed: Aircraft don't shoot at an airborne target, they shoot at its position on the ground.
* Nothing against the current Samson model, but could you maybe find one with visible guns?

 

[TomiTomo]

the minimum attack range for slash cutter make it cut the further tree, sometimes get up the cliff.... can make them auto remove tree too ?

 

[Dj0z]

Avatars:

* I'm still getting multiple Battle Rage bonuses for Discovering a Titanothere.
* The Toruk Makto seems to work well, but there are problems:
** Instead of having the Avatar levitate himself up when mounting, have the Toruk go down.
** If used repeatedly (mount/dismount), the riding Avatar's name will change, which isn't that big a deal, but you lose all your hero points, which is.
** The Toruk no longer has a portrait.

RDA:

* Something weird I noticed: Aircraft don't shoot at an airborne target, they shoot at its position on the ground.
* Nothing against the current Samson model, but could you maybe find one with visible guns?

*Okay, ill just do the bonuses once and for all in one version i guess.
*
**Why not, it shouldn't be hard
**This is a matter of luck, not repetition. It's a small glitch that will be fixed as i improve the mounting system so that the hero's characteristics stay the exact same.
**The portrait for Toruk, well i have no idea how to fix it. I didnt do the model editing, so i'll ask the guy who did.

RDA:
*This will be improved. I had already prepared the system to properly "miss" air units, just didnt have time to finalize it yet (people notice other things before they notice that, so it has low priority).
*Well this one is the best i found so far for a transport copter, others had too many guns/missiles, sometimes they'd look more dangerous than the assault copter...


@TomiTomo: Yes that is planned

 

[cleavinghammer]

Cool. What of the space-drop-does-damage thing, would it work?

 

[karlk32]

Hey i look for mapmakers becose i will gladly be mapmaker!

Hurt me and i hurt u!

 

[Hugomath]

What quests are you planning to add to the Avatars?

 

[cleavinghammer]

On a terrain-related note, I think the map could use a LOT more doodads, especially in the jungle areas.

 

[Dj0z]

On a terrain-related note, I think the map could use a LOT more doodads, especially in the jungle areas.

Uhh i don't think there will be more doodads, there's already way enough for my taste lol. There are 2 main reasons:
-I use to update the map pretty often, and saving/loading times get much longer when there are more doodads, which makes it that much longer to be able to make any change, and to test the changes and debug them. When updating a map becomes a pain for the mapper, you know the map is gonna die eventually from being less updated (or no longer at all).
-The other reason is, in jungle areas for example you can hardly issue attack-move orders at some dense places because when you click it will target a tree, and your guys will get owned by animals because they're ignoring them to target the tree. Noone wants that.

Cool. What of the space-drop-does-damage thing, would it work?

Since you can only do that on space pads, the people it could hurt would be almost always Corp units, and that's an unnecessary nerf (could angry players easily).

What quests are you planning to add to the Avatars?

Many quests in the 4 main domains which are already ingame (Animals, Flora, Na'vi and Human). It says 5 per domain currently but there could be more as the game gets closer to completion.

 

[Tleno]

Well actually ISV or whatever it's called can also have a some kind of bomb drop that would destroy the space pad and all around it. but otherwise, wouldn't it be more effective to plant some kind of explosive pack with timer or maybe a minefield to protect yourself?

 

[Dj0z]

Well actually ISV or whatever it's called can also have a some kind of bomb drop that would destroy the space pad and all around it. but otherwise, wouldn't it be more effective to plant some kind of explosive pack with timer or maybe a minefield to protect yourself?

I don't mind giving the ISV some orbital weapon thing, it could be a bomb yea.
Mine fields and timed explosives will be added aswell.

 

[Tleno]

Cool. By the way, talking about all the traps.mines, shouldn't it be a priority to give some to Na'vi? I mean they can't oppose humans so they can use the guerilla tactics to combat. Like falling trees/avanalches, sabotaging human machinery, punji or whatever those are called sticks like the ones used in far east as traps.

 

[Dj0z]

Cool. By the way, talking about all the traps.mines, shouldn't it be a priority to give some to Na'vi? I mean they can't oppose humans so they can use the guerilla tactics to combat. Like falling trees/avanalches, sabotaging human machinery, punji or whatever those are called sticks like the ones used in far east as traps.

Apart from brute animal strength, poison and their naturally superior physical condition, it is already planned to give Na'vi such tactics against the raw firepower of Corps (which is being increased in a version coming soon).

 

[cleavinghammer]

I get your point about the updates, but what about when all the trigger-related work is done, for the final version? (I'm talking about non-targetable doodads like plants and flowers, which are a major part of the movie's atmosphere).