1.2B(14) just went live!

[Zwiebelchen]

Download at the usual place.

New features:
New ability system, QWER ASDF Z hotkeys, Mounts, improved Legendary souls and new abilities for every class!

CHANGELOG (v1.2B (14)):

BUGFIXES/GENERAL:

IMPORTANT: Due to critical changes in the item system, your backpack and stashes will be empty when importing your character into this version via -comp
Players that finished the Gargoyle Quest will get the quest reward hammer back after importing their old codes.

GAMEPLAY:
- Implemented new ability system: abilities can now be learned as mutual exclusive choices directly from within the spellbook at levels 1,3,7,13,25,27,33,37 and 43
- Learned ability spellbook positions will now match the keyboard layout upon learning
- Due to these changes, many ability hotkeys have been changed so that frequently used abilities are on easily reachable keys Q,W,E,R,D,F and less frequently used abilities are on A,S and Z
- Note: Due to the changes in the internal computing, importing old codes from the previous version via -comp can mess up abilities learned
- Note: Due to the removal of ability scrolls, savable non-equipment items (like Recipes) can be messed up when importing old codes via -comp
- Monks can now do a roundhouse kick as one of their attack animations
- 'Rest' mechanic removed. Instead, units will now constantly recover their health/mana at resting speed when out of combat
- Mounts! You can now buy your first mount for a small gold fee at Riversdale
- Better mounts will be available at many places across the map for a larger cost, but will also have an additional ability
- Legendary Souls will no longer have a random distribution of stats; instead, they will now select of a pool of presets with unique names
- This will not affect existing Legendary Souls, only newfound souls will use these presets
- Many Legendary Soul Auras have been changed to have new effects
- Due to the changes to the ability system; the spell unlearning mechanic has been changed to unlearn all abilities in a bulk at a cost
- New base class abilities for all classes!
- Due to the new ranger ability, some talents and abilities have been adjusted to accomodate for the new ability; make sure to read the tooltips to get up to date!
- There is now a button in the hero options menu to kill all controlled minions if neccesary


BUGFIXES/BALANCE/OTHER:
- There will now be game hints displayed after picking a new level 1 hero
- Until Blizzard releases the patch that increases the map size, the intro cinematic has been temporarily disabled (to avoid synchronization issues at game start)
- The Mystic class change Quest can now be done regardless of the time of day
- Splicing green souls does no longer require an extra item to be disenchanted
- Weather changes (and thus the related lag spike) will no longer happen during combat
- Added some audio cues for the Zharokhen encounter
- Zharokhen priest add can now be CCed; however, he now also has an ability that allows him to break out of CC spells or stuns
- Dazing Trap no longer affects immune units
- Chain Lightning will now properly display a chained lightning instead of a forked lightning
- Binding Chains will no longer pull stationary units
- Reduced Cooldown of 'Guardian Angel' to 90 seconds
- Changed icons for 'Spell Mirror' and 'Confidence' for consistency with the new spell selection method
- Reduced Cooldown of 'Crucify' to 25 seconds
- Added more bloodstone drops throughout the Foothills area loottables
- Legendary Soul Auras will no longer linger around after the owning player left the game
- 'Dispel' can now be used on mechanical units
- The Overseer will no longer cast 'Mana Trap' on minions or mercenaries
- 'Mana Trap' damage and drain effect reduced
- Fixed several terrain leaks around Zharo that caused the pathfinding to go nuts if players accidentally clicked outside of the playable terrain
- Fixed a bug with Hunter level 30 talent (now properly grants 10% resistances instead of just 5%)
- Moved Lieutenant Magast for the transit quest to Mytargas to the bridge connecting the starting area with the farmland area
- Reduced the required level for the transit quest to Mytargas
- Many AoE spells and effects have been updated to take the collision size of units into account (larger units are now easier to hit; for example with 'Crucify')
- Snowfall fog effect reduced to improve visibility
- Fixed 'Maintenance' spell in Overseer encounter still healing even when outranged
- Reduced Construct HP and Aura damage in Construct phase on Overseer encounter
- Slightly increased melee damage of the Lord of Caverns
- Reduced Bloodthirst timer of Lord of Caverns from 360 to 300 seconds
- Increased raw attack power and ArP gain from melee skeletons
- Skeleton mages can now also auto attack once all mana is depleted
- 'Detonating Bones' is now an enemy-target spell (but can only target organic units) and deals extra damage to the main target
- 'Mind Lash' will now always jump to the first-in-threat if that unit is within the jumping range; if not, it will target the closest unit
- 'Imbue Armor' will no longer reflect damage that exceeds the absorbed amount
- You can no longer enslave player units
- 'Steal' will no longer drop the stolen item on the ground if the main inventory is full (and there is space in the bag)
- Quest rewards will no longer drop to the ground if the main inventory is full (and there is space in the bag)
- Updated tooltips of Vault teleport and stash purchase to notify the player that stashes will be moved to the Soul Vault once loaded
- Soul Vault portal will now always be available if the vault is loaded, even if the character hasn't yet reached level 4.
- Fixed a bug that allowed Mystics to reflect white damage back as white damage, triggering onAttack procs like Levitate
- Psionic Blade will no longer accumulate charges when attacking friendlies
- Psionic Blade can no longer steal 'Stealth' and 'Into the Shades' for balancing reasons
- Valgar in Squire class change encounter will no longer cast heal
- Increased droprates for all quest items required to obtain the Gargoyle Hammer
- Fixed a bug with Psionic Blade not absorbing many self-cast abilities correctly
- Fixed a bug with Robe of Fire Protection not giving armor
- Missiles will now originate from the caster even if the caster was pulled by Binding Chains
- Fixed a bug that allowed having 2 enslaved creatures under certain conditions
- Missile launch height from stolen spells will now be properly adjusted for levitating Psions
- Minions and Mercenaries will no longer jerk and run around like crazy if there are many players in the game
- Binding Chains will no longer pull invulnerable units
- Petrify will no longer be castable on bosses
- 'Bladefury' now has a smoother feeling and animation; damage now spreads over 4 hits instead of 5
- 'Bursting Touch' is now SP based instead of AP
- 'Mind Lash' will now jump from any damage dealt, not just normal attack damage
- 'Mind Lash' will now always jump if the unit dies from the damage dealt
- Fixed a bug with a Hexblade talent not applying 60% absorb increase to Imbue Armor correctly
- 'Ground Slam' no longer hits air units

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hehe, doggies.

 

[Jumbo]

Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

 

[S0ulseeker]

WOOT I'll upload the new version to the bots in a few minutes, can't wait to play all weekend

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

Is it intended that the Charge CD gets reset upon dismounting?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Is it intended that the Charge CD gets reset upon dismounting?

No, but I don't really see a problem with it either.

 

[Devlain]

I'm so happy =')

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

I wouldn't say it's a problem either. Will be amusing to watch people hopping off and on mounts just to get around as quickly as possible.

 

[satoshikid]

Cheers~!
Thank you very much for the new update!

 

[BoxOfFaith]

Rip grossly imbalanced "Add slayer" Psion, you will be missed but never forgotten </3.

But really all these bug fixes and balancing changes seem amazing <3.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

Bug Reports
Sorcerer's instant Water Globes skill does not apply a CD change (So u get instant 0CD water globes).
Lightning Charge and Servant of the Skies can't target air units (Garg).
It seems Zharo doesn't cast any spells now. (S0ulseeker)
Berserker takes buffs permanently. (S0ulseeker)
Gaelas doesn't drop anything sometimes. (Bleach_of_Pain)

My skill choice grievances
Squire - Parry vs Heroic Presence. Don't you want both of these for tanking? Early on, too. Backhand evasion effect is useless till later when u have decent gear/levels.
I'd rather see:
Taunt/Heroic Presence
Gaping Wounds/Parry
Hateful Strike/Shield Slam
Revenge/Backhand
This would be optimal I think. Ofc it would mean Squires won't have a starting dmg skill, but they don't need it anyway. Restricted to 1 interrupt but again, they don't need 2 anyway since you've removed heal from the class quest.

Cleric - I think Monk will want Curse and Sunfire for sure. Thats a pretty long wait for resurrection but I suppose it can't be helped. Druid waits much longer anyway. Would be better if the choices split support/DPS.
I'd rather see:
Heal/Crippling Curse (tougher choice but makes sure Monk's Body and Mind isn't gimped like it is now)
Confidence/Soul Strike
Burst of Light/Sunfire (AoE heal vs AoE damage)
Resurrection/Symbol of Fury

Thief - I'm OK with this. I think any setup for thief is going to be hard, and will require resetting for some situations.

Ranger - Can see that you're pairing up similar abilities, and while this does make for tough/interesting choices, the advanced classes will suffer for it. The way most of these choices are set up, we're going to be forced into atleast 1 skill that we simply won't use. Or lose a skill that was an important part of some advanced class.
I'd rather see:
Servant of Nature/Servant of Skies
Flaming Arrow/Ensnare
Claw Strike/Remedy (I think it's long overdue that remedy became available earlier to Ranger)
Barbed Arrow/Feline Reflexes

Mystic - Great new spell for mystics, this will surely solve mystics threat issues... wait. We have to give up Twisting Metal for it? What's the point of this? At any rate, Hexblade is surely the most fun class to play this version.
I'd rather see:
Twisting Metal/Bursting Touch
Distracting Weapon/Liquified Arms (Much needed early threat vs tanking/support tool)
Jolting Strikes/Draining Timber
Dancing Blade/Imbue Armor (You'll still be giving up something good for dancing blade, but it won't damage your gameplay/hexblade-aggro either)

Magician - Definitely need Dispel earlier. Also, I don't see anyone dropping meteor strike, but dispel is too useful to sink like that.
I'd rather see:
Fireball/Waterglobes
Dispel/Magic Missile (still a hard choice but I could go conceivably go for dispel here)
Frost Cage/Fire Shield
Combustion/Meteor Strike

 

[Ihazdialup]

^that, I personally think those are better choice, also if you decide to keep Jolting Strikes as is... I think it needs buffed otherwise it is literally less dps and no aoe than Bursting Touch.

Also Warcry doesn't work, the visual affect works, but nothing gains the bonus AP.

Ignore what I said I read the skill wrong and it seems to work fine ^.^

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

I think Warcry increases ALL damage instances, not AP/SP.

 

[Ihazdialup]

try -comp in place of -load if that doesn't work make sure you save into 1.2b(13) and then -comp instead of -load

Also make sure your code was created while you were online, not in single player mode, you can create lan games or battlenet games yourself and be alone however to still save properly

 

[grekern]

Adding the the post above, the name of your LAN character must be the same as the one on Bnet.

Just a tiny thing I saw, the release date when selecting the map is 15 April 2015

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Guys, the idea was that the skills selections were hard choices.

If a selection becomes a no-brainer, the purpose of having these choices would be meaningless.


Skills are paired in power and usefulness, not paired in "primary build" and "off-build".
What's the point of that?
Take for example Dancing Blade and Twisting Metal. Both are super powerful (one is probably one of the strongest single target spells in the game, the other is an instant cast low CD aoe with extra threat), there is a meaning in choosing one or the other. If I place them in a way that allows to get them both, the whole point behind the choice is gone and everyone goes for mono-builds again.
Also, how in the world is Body and Mind gimped with a Heal/Soul Strike pairing? If anything, Body and Mind would be gimped with your suggestion, because if you like both crippling and confidence, you don't even have a spell to use it with.

Let the ability choices sink in for a while and see how the builds turn out. If everyone ends up picking the same at one particular choice, then we can still change things up. Until then, I'd just give it a try the way it is now, because I put a lot of thinking into the pairings and have my own personal reasoning behind it.

And yes, nerfing some classes was a reasoning at some points. The choices were never meant to keep the classes at the "all you can eat" buffet style that we had before.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

Well if you really want it this way.. I guess we have to live with.

What made Body and Mind attractive to me was the ability to choose between heal and soul strike depending on the situation. The allrounder spell build goes out the window with this new choice. All monks will now be straight-up auto-attackers. Some players may try out the new fire spell for him but obviously everyone will revert to curse because, without the curse ArP talent, Monks simply don't do enough.

TBH, from the start I didn't like the idea of this system, it wastes too many spells, especially in comparison to a combo/chain system where everything could be used. Eventually everyone will end up with the same build except in very situational fights where they may reset spells. No matter how much you try and think the choices will be hard so builds will be diverse... 1 spell will always be better than the other in general. In the end, we're just losing functionality. If you reworked the talent system to accomodate the spell choices, it may work out. Until then, I'm not into this.

Building each class was frustrating more than anything else. You should have said earlier that the new skill system was a huge nerf to everything where we're inevitably going to lose good/useful/fun spells in favor of ensnare/remedy for Hunter.

 

[Jumbo]

Never mind my deleted post. Had little new to add.
Just wanted to say that I like the new system and look forward to see it improved and tweaked in the upcoming versions. As far as I can see, Hexblade and especially monk still need aggro boosts though.

(part of what I wrote before I deleted the post
EDIT: Please keep in mind what I wrote at the beginning of this post "ADJUSTMENTS CAN BE ADDED LATER". If one spell is not good enough, it can be improved. If one spell choice is too bad, he can change that. It will all work out in the end. Also I agree with several of your suggestion points Kamina.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

EDIT: Please keep in mind what I wrote at the beginning of this post "ADJUSTMENTS CAN BE ADDED LATER". If one spell is not good enough, it can be improved. If one spell choice is too bad, he can change that. It will all work out in the end. Also I agree with several of your suggestion points Kamina.

This. Let's run with it for some time and see where it goes, before we start an outcry about broken choices and stuff.

When there's a new change, there's a new meta. That's the way multiplayer games work.
And when there's a change in meta, players will complain. That's also how multiplayer games work.

But players will also learn to adapt and find something new they like or don't like.


The system is a huge change, especially with the new spell additions, as for the first time in forever people are actually forced to think about their choices. Before that (with just 11 spells out of which you could select 9), there hardly wasn't a need for decisions, because there were always two spells you could just dump.

Now, with a 9 out of 13, there is. And it will only get worse from here with every new spell I add to the system.

When people can't decide between one of two choices, because both of them are just too good to give either of them up, that's mission fucking acomplished.



And just as a reminder for everyone:
The talent system will get a revamp. Dead choices that only benefit one spell you might not have with your current build will be removed. These talents will be changed to also offer something for the other spell at your choice.
I just didn't want to postpone this release any longer.
The talent revamp will come along with 1.2C.

 

[Manipulation]

hehe, doggies.

gouf gouf gouf! AAOOUUUUUUUUU

 

[Manipulation]

So skill choices are until forth ? :/ Is this going to change? (hope they do ).

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

Looks like skill choices will stay as they are. Seeing as usually developers make changes based on community feedback, but Zwieb considers complaints about the the new system as victories... I don't see any chance of anything changing here.

As I said before, there's still not much thought necessary to choose skills in this version, since the choices are similar you could take either and it would be roughly the same effect (except silly choices like Dispel vs Meteor), except one is always better than the other. So there will be one best build, and a bunch of less-than-optimal builds. It's simply more frustrating because you're losing skills while not making anything more interesting.

On a different note (but ironically related): Bottle of Whine should be removed. It used to crop up every so often randomly when the item codes changed but now many players know exactly how to comp it in (a certain foothills recipe scroll that is actually likely to be carried). If not removed then nerfed heavily, or just have all stats removed (this would avoid messing up the item codes further). Even if the way to comp it in is changed now, it will likely appear again in some future update. 6th Slot legendary isn't much of a joke if it adds this much stats and 50HP. I believe most joke items in games have really low or negative stats anyway. Perhaps you can just have some lines in the description for complaints about gaias like "R.Fear: cruz need more aggro".

 

[Manipulation]

I dont think Dispel or Meteor are silly choices. You can pick dispel if you want to play as a support type.

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

Putting aside the fact that nobody is seriously going to pick and stick with Dispel over Meteor (even for situations where dispel would be useful), you can't make focused builds anymore. You can't focus on support because you will have to drop a support spell. All classes now have their roles mixed abit with another role.

No matter how you spin it, this system is currently heavily restrictive in what you can choose for an effective build. New talents may change that so we'll just have to wait for the next patch to discuss this in detail (since the choices themselves are mostly set in stone).

 

[Ihazdialup]

Unfortunately Zwieb many of the choices (sadly large rant time), at least to me, seem to have a much easier choice, for now, reworking some numbers could change that.

Like the Cleric choices....
Sunfire/Crippling Curse, For Monk giving up crippling curse (and the ability to ignore armor with it at level 40/45) is far too good to pass up for an aoe, and Bishops/Clerics don't need even more aoe aggro.

Or Heal/Soul Strike too, Heal is too important early game to not get as a Cleric, but also makes the class incredibly boring and probably terrible to solo with (no dps support), and becomes useless for both Bishop and Monk because Monk needs the aggro/dps from Soul Strike and Bishop simply gets a better heal in Flash Heal

Or Symbol of Fury/Resurrection because Symbol of Fury is not a big enough buff to be worth not being able to resurrect a teammate, even for Monk, it adds a whopping 6-12 dps in my tests, imo at least. Jombu suggested adding a aggro increase element to Symbol of Fury so it can be even better used by tanks and more situational for dps classes

Got nothing for the Confidence/BoL its evenly matched (for me I took Confidence because I always forgot I had BoL anyways but THATS JUST ME)

Then for Squire,
The taunt/Revenge option is a joke, maybe if taunt had a tad bit of lasting aggro (by a tad I probably mean a lot) because in my experience you either HAVE aggro or you don't, and with Berserker leaning more towards dps and highest aggro in game (it seems) and with Crusaders resets or lack of aggro outside of Guardian Angel (which is great btw) Revenge just seems superior all around.

Gaping Wounds/Shield Slam is alright I suppose, but either choice is superior than the other depending on your advanced class (for now maybe it'll change if berserkers get more shield ability choices) but thats probably to be expected and is not actually a problem......

Parry/Heroic..... Ehhh either tanking help or aggro help kinda the same as gaping wounds/shield slam it depends on your advanced class, since Crusaders are so tank they can easily do without parry, but suffer in the aggro department without proper guardian angel and/or enough resets (at level 50)

Good Job on the first choice though for Squire
(F.Y.I Shield throw seems kind of lacking... I feel the casting time is unnecessary for the damage that isn't even comparable to crucify)

For Ranger...(I think you did great here)
1st choice is easy (depending on class, expected)

2nd choice is much Harder for Ranger/Hunter but is kind of a no-brainer for Druid (though they all cant be winners and I understand that)

Claw Strike/Barbed again a hard choice I suppose, Claw Strike is superior dps if you took SoN (which you should as a ranger/hunter as it is higher dps) though I wish claw strike COULD benefit Druid in someway without needing SoN (special abilities for Nymph/Efreet? o.0) But as a druid you more than likely have servant of the skies so you can use efreet or/and nymph making claw strike not an option (again cant be perfect, but best choice possible

The last choice.... ehhh kinda gotta pair the two remaining skills, maybe having barbed arrow/ensnare switched since Druid literally NEEDS remedy to be useful to the party and itself (maybe that'll change later)

For mystic...
The first choice is actually kind of a No brainer as they now have the same multiplier (at 25 you can take the jolting strike talent) except Bursting Touch is AoE and has a shorter CD

Then the choice between Twisting metal and Dancing Blade..... Well in the later game Twisting Metal I've noticed is just simply MORE aggro simply due to hitting so much harder and is the only way a Hexblade can HOPE to hold aggro, I guess Dancing Blade offers better CC, but that doesn't help much when a dps is tanking the boss

Then the separate class choice again (for now)

And this last choice for Mystic is also a good one, well paired

For Thief, I got nothing *shrugs shoulders* some skills I feel like are too core for the first class (Like Stealth and steal) but hey... what can you do, they become less important later game imo, since Assassin gets Into The Shades and you don't need Steal too terribly much when you're max geared

And finally, Magician...

First choice, its rough Single Target/Aoe gets easier after classing (as Sorcerer favors water/lightning more and Necromancer favors Shadow/Fire more it seems)

Then two instant cast choices, superior dps, or a bit better surviability, tough

Then Frost Cage/Fire Shield....ehhh maybe Fire Shield Vs Dispel COULD be better but I feel like Frost Cage/Meteor is a no brainer, though dps vs survivability...

And uhhh yeah the previous words kind of summed up how I feel about the last choice, I dislike having Dispel go up against such a strong aoe (though the cooldown is long and the total dps at least for single target is really not that high)

there..... RANT/THOUGHTS OVER

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

I definitely agree with the Cleric options. Lategame when you get Flash of Light, you can afford to get rid of heal and get Soul Strike, but other than that, all the options are easy. When would you go Symbol over Res? Symbol of Fury is a trash ability, and I'm ressing 5-10 times every boss farm game with Bishop. Crippling Curse is absolutely godly damage (Spellpower x 7), you can never pass that up. A 120 CD heal is much too unreliable, I'll take the 15% res any time.

Lategame bishop power stayed just about the same since you can get Soul Strike (which gives more DPS than all of the Sorcerer's spells) but earlygame Cleric can't deal damage anymore. Of course, Cleric used to be absolute god tier so maybe a nerf was justified, but still, I'm glad I already leveled a cleric!

Magician abilities seem OK... But when would you ever take fireblast over water globes? Even if it wasn't for the 0 sec CD talent, Globes synergies with Lightning Charge too much to be overlooked.

 

[Manipulation]

After a quick look on Assassin and Berserker
If Gaias reach 3 or even 4 choices each time we are about to pick a skill then this system will become good (as Saiko also mentioned).
The thing is, the skills have to be different. What i mean? It shouldnt be choices between two/three skills that all deal dmg or both stun etc, it should be choices between skills that are needed for different situations and favour different playstyles.

There is room for big feedback. Changes on skill and talent choices are needed. BUT it should be done properly. Without quick judgment or personal playstyle point of view. As with Meteor and Dispel above, i personally dont think its a bad choice. So, no matter how all-known some of u might think you are regarding Gaias you have to remember that the game isnt made just for you and your playstyle.
So in order to give decent feedback to Zwieb i suggest to create a topic for each class. Because ranting/raging in one topic along with other random comments wont help anything.

 

[Jumbo]

Good idea Manipulation +1. Perhaps Class discussion should be an entire category on the forums to keep a uniform and easy way to find specific discussions.

 

[MiroBG]

and to keep spammers like him away from other sections

 

[jonasqwe009]

try -comp in place of -load if that doesn't work make sure you save into 1.2b(13) and then -comp instead of -load

Also make sure your code was created while you were online, not in single player mode, you can create lan games or battlenet games yourself and be alone however to still save properly

resolved, ty <3

 

[ALEXz407]

I have not played new version online yet, but from solo runs can say: update is awesome!
Pace of map is higher now, because you can travel faster ( mounts, city teleports without cd, rest/regeneration ) - less waiting => more fun.
Predefined red souls are awesome change, because dat RNG on top of RNG is something, that can be good midgame, but will kill endgame ( just look at Tom Clancy's The Division )
Hints system looks nice, I hope it will help newcomers to jump in
And new skills! It's time to update guide

Gold penalty for death is still a topic for discussion, because with it Resurrection will be 100% preferable skill choice.

P.S.

Datamined mounts list

300 gold, without Charge:
- Trained Charger

2500 gold, 5 mc, can Charge:
- Bloodfang
- Brown Mammoth
- Grey Mammoth
- Lizard
- Red Lizard
- Riding Turtle
- Scorpion
- Snowfang
- Spiderling
- Steam-Wheeler
- Tamed Boar

 

[MiroBG]

I have not played new version online yet, but from solo runs can say: update is awesome!
Pace of map is higher now, because you can travel faster ( mounts, city teleports without cd, rest/regeneration ) - less waiting => more fun.
Predefined red souls are awesome change, because dat RNG on top of RNG is something, that can be good midgame, but will kill endgame ( just look at Tom Clancy's The Division )
Hints system looks nice, I hope it will help newcomers to jump in
And new skills! It's time to update guide

Gold penalty for death is still a topic for discussion, because with it Resurrection will be 100% preferable skill choice.

P.S.

Datamined mounts list

300 gold, without Charge:
- Trained Charger

2500 gold, 5 mc, can Charge:
- Bloodfang
- Brown Mammoth
- Grey Mammoth
- Lizard
- Red Lizard
- Riding Turtle
- Scorpion
- Snowfang
- Spiderling
- Steam-Wheeler
- Tamed Boar

You should try steam-wheeler on crusader its been killing me the past 2 days and is my fav mount

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I don't want to comment on everything, simply because I don't have that much time to discuss now (rather want to play for a change).

But here is my original reasoning behind some of the "popular" pairing choices I've made:

Heal/Soul Strike:
That one is obvious. Healing spam or damage spam. I agree that it's rough for a starting cleric to take one or the other, but it was imho the best way to make a choice that doesn't gimp either monks or bishops.
And I definitely wanted clerics to have access to crippling curse, so pairing up crippling with heal (as has been suggested before) would be a terrible decision, imho.
I'd rather have healing clerics auto attack for the first three levels than taking away crippling from healers.

Crippling/Sunfire:
Yes, I know what you're thinking. Evil dev taking away the lollipop he just gave you by pairing it up with one of the strongest spells in the game. But keep in mind that there are other ways to reduce armor on the target provided by many other classes:
Song of Vigor, Embrittling Acid, Detonating Bones, etc.
So depending on who you are playing with on a regular basis, you might want to take a different talent at this choice. And if you look around at the exact same tier, you will find a talent that gives crippling procs on attacks... so you kinda get the spell back without even taking it; though not on demand, that is.
I think it's a great choice when you really think about it. Crippling is strong and the DPS is insane, I get that; but the armor penetration talent? I don't get what the fuzz is about it. It's good, but it's nowhere near a must-have as much as you make it sound.


Symbol of Fury/Ressurection:
It's utility vs. utility. I think people overestimate the use of ressurection, but that's just me. Maybe it's time removing the death penalty.
When 1.2C comes and adds new gold sinks, I'll think about that. I didn't like it anyway, but it was needed to keep the income in the game down.
I guess when that happens, Ressurection might also get some changes so that it works more like Life Infusion does.

Taunt/Revenge:
People greatly overestimate the use of Revenge. When you do the maths, Revenge adds only tiny DPS over it's long cooldown.
It's great as a snap aggro thing, but then again Taunt is too. And with the talent adding SP based damage to taunt, you even get *more* DPS out of taunt then you get from Revenge.
People love big numbers, but I still don't get why people think so strongly about Revenge. Imho, I don't like Revenge anyway; if I ever get time to revamp some existing skills, Revenge is one of the first candidates for removal on my list.

Parry/Heroic:
Simple reasoning: More survivability or more Aggro? I agree that it sucks for Berserkers; but then again, Zerkers are the last class that would need a buff imho.

Claw Strike/Barbed:
Do you like pets or not? I wanted to give players a choice here to focus stronger on the ranger itself. Also, the pairing of aggro reduce vs. aggro gain.
@Ihaz: I don't get that comment about missing benefits for Claw Strike on Druids. Claw Strike works on the Servant of the Skies. So it's literally free damage for druids.

Ensnare/Remedy:
I understand that druids complain, but I had to pair *something* with Remedy. And I felt that it was only fair that Druids kind of need to ditch a CC over their primary heal.
Druids are crazy strong with their ability to have up to 3 pets, of which one basicly serves as a passive backup healer. They can deal with not having a CC.

Jolting/Bursting Touch:
This is kinda because people complained about bursting being too weak. I buffed it by changing it to SP and forgot about the pairing. Now people complain about it being better than Jolting in all regards, which is fine; I just forgot about the implications of buffing Bursting in this pairing.
Sure thing, Jolting could need a buff, I agree on that. It needs better single target DPS than bursting.
Other than that, I think its a solid choice to make.

Twisting/Dancing:
Single target vs. AoE. Also keep Psion in mind. People underestimate the bonus aggro on dancing. It's a x3 modifier (like Shield Slam), so in total, it does more threat than twisting even against a single target (plus it is executed faster, so more spells to channel as a hex).
Again, I feel people get fooled by big numbers. I think Twisting and Dancing are pretty even for Hexblades in terms of power. You trade some single target DPS for AoE DPS and more ability time. The threat is about the same.

Frost Cage/Fire Shield:
It's the battle of utility. Fire Shield is not that strong until buffed by talents; but Frost Cage is highly situational either. I think it's a solid choice.

Dispel/Meteor:
Again, people greatly overestimate the DPS of meteor on it's long cooldown. Unless you take the level 50 talent that makes it a triple meteor (with RNG involved and fingers crossed it hits more than once), it's a pretty mediocre AoE DPS easily outclassed by Incinerate or even plain old Fireball.
Personally, I'd take dispel any day over Meteor; it's just way more useful, but it seems that's just me.
Pairing Meteor with ANYTHING was hard. This choice was literally the one I took out of frustration what to do with Dispel. And at least it has *some* meaning now (giving up utility for a sub-par AoE).

Fireball/Water Globes:
Keep the 0.5 second haste talent for fireball in mind. People underestimate the DPS fireball does against a single target, especially when boosted further. And Water Globes kind of gets replaced by Water Elemental later on, unless you take that instant cast talent (and that's why it's there).


And yes, Shield Throw is kinda on the weak end; I noticed that too in my first testing game. I think a buff could be handy here.
The threat modifier on Shield Throw is x3 though; so it DOES generate a lot more threat than crucify.

 

[Ihazdialup]

And yes, Shield Throw is kinda on the weak end; I noticed that too in my first testing game. I think a buff could be handy here.
The threat modifier on Shield Throw is x3 though; so it DOES generate a lot more threat than crucify.

Doesn't Crucify have the same multiplier or is the multiplier just X2?

Taunt/Revenge:
People greatly overestimate the use of Revenge. When you do the maths, Revenge adds only tiny DPS over it's long cooldown.
It's great as a snap aggro thing, but then again Taunt is too. And with the talent adding SP based damage to taunt, you even get *more* DPS out of taunt then you get from Revenge.

Actually what'd probably be best would be taking the Parry over Heroic Pressence (because heroic only works on auto attacks, no?) and then the Parry talents, and Revenge, then you get the reset talent on revenge potentially making Revenge a 30s cd ability anyways. So doing that you get probably the most aggro. Though thats only theory crafting and hinders on what Heroic does exactly, and that Instantaneous aggro from revenge is incredibly important because then when your teammates use their nukes they are less likely to take aggro, causing the boss to go around and smack everyone except the tank.

Again, people greatly overestimate the DPS of meteor on it's long cooldown. Unless you take the level 50 talent that makes it a triple meteor (with RNG involved and fingers crossed it hits more than once), it's a pretty mediocre AoE DPS easily outclassed by Incinerate or even plain old Fireball.

I think you also underestimate the power of near instantaneous powerful aoe, even though its quite spread out, that Meteor brings to the table, but theres not really any other options to pair it up with so dispel seems just. I know Meteor does low dps, but it does a lot of damage which makes it soooo useful for boss spawns as it can clear them very quickly and efficiently.

@Ihaz: I don't get that comment about missing benefits for Claw Strike on Druids. Claw Strike works on the Servant of the Skies. So it's literally free damage for druids.

That was a mistake on my part.


About Crippling Curse talent..

I get that; but the armor penetration talent? I don't get what the fuzz is about it. It's good, but it's nowhere near a must-have as much as you make it sound.

Well in my experience, that talent is possibly the biggest DPS boost that Monk can get which is important because it doesn't offer anywhere close to as much resilience as Crusader so its gotta offer the dps at least, and I feel nowadays MOST players are not going to pick Embrittling over Sweeping, because of your big numbers theory, so you're basically relying on a Necromancer to be in the game for you to get Armor reduction, ecspecially with Monks poor, and I mean POOOR arp ratings. And with Monk's high attackspeed and low spellpower your auto attacks add a lot more dps than the actual DoT offered by Crippling Curse.

And about the Cleric pairings I would probably pair Symbol of Fury and Heal, then Soul Strike with Ress or Confidence, Crippling with the left over option.. and Sunfire with BoL, at least how I look at how that'd be set up, there'd be a a full dps option for Clerics, or a full Support/Heal option, or you can mix pretty easily. I'm suggesting this because one of the biggest things that attracted me to Cleric (and probably gaias as a whole) was the fact that the Healer could actually do actively do something other than waiting for their friends to get hurt. I also feel like that pairing would allow the greatest variability of the advanced classes as well in all honesty...

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

Heal/Soul Strike:

It seems I'm the only one who really has a problem with this for lategame Monks, for early game I think it's fine. Soul Strike is too strong to have on a healer at the start. However, it bugs me that Monk's Soul Strike is still hurt by Divine Shield. They can't shield themselves anymore so why should they have to pay a price for being shielded?

Crippling/Sunfire:
Crippling Curse is imperitave for Monks. I don't know what sort of theorycrafting you're going on about, but in practical experience with just about all team compositions, a Monk without Curse ArP is just trash from Hill Giant onwards. The only time anyone (on Bishop or Monk) will respec to Sunfire is for D3 wave grinding.

Symbol of Fury/Ressurection:

Nobody wants to lose gold (regardless of whether they need gold or not), but even more importantly: Symbol of Fury sucks. It's decent at the very early-mid stages of the game where AS is hard to come by and that's about it. It doesn't impact much on endgame DPS. If Symbol had some utility like increased threat or removing debuffs on cast, there would be an argument for it. As it is, why would I give up the ability to keep a fight going with a well-timed battle-ressurect for some measly 25 (Absolute maximum increased) DPS?

Taunt/Revenge:

x1SP damage is trash. Especially with the reset talent for 30second Revenge, this is an obvious choice. The burst threat from Revenge is way more important than Taunt in 99.99% of gameplay situations. If taunt had some lasting effect there would be some debate here, but as it is, Revenge all the way. Only an idiot or a hipster will choose taunt.

Parry/Heroic:

It doesn't suck at all for berserkers. Berserkers have the highest raw burst threat in the game, they don't need Heroic Presence if they want to tank. It sucks for Squires and Crusaders because they have to give up such a fundamental skill either way. I don't like it all, but seeing as it's a big nerf for Crusader which was kind of necessary, I can roll with this.

Claw Strike/Barbed:

To me this is a dead choice. Only lazy players or those that don't really care about reaching their hero's maximum potential will choose Barbed Arrow here. Don't even have to consider it for druid, Claw Strike is just free DPS for her.

Ensnare/Remedy:

What are you even talking about? Very few people used ensnare. It's not even necessary in any situation. Hell, even hunters will take remedy over ensnare.

Jolting/Bursting Touch:

If you buff Jolts, this is a fine pairing. Would you consider adding more utility to it? Like a small knockback before the immobilize kicks in? Would make sense logically I think. Would make the spells equal but since mystic isn't in dire need for control, nobody will feel forced to take it.

Twisting/Dancing:

Perhaps in early game it may be equal. Later when enemy armor picks up, twisting metal is FAR superior. Can't even compare them, especially with the talents to support it (while Dancing has none ofcourse). Even with some talents I don't know how Dancing will ever match twist in efficiency. It needs to be stronger (don't nerf twisting, hexblade still isn't very strong even though its super fun to play). Make Dancing ignore armor or something along those lines. 100% to Twisting after everyone has had fun with the new spell.

Frost Cage/Fire Shield:

This is fine with me, both are useful even without talents.

Fireball/Water Globes:

Good choice, is there even an issue here? There's enough talents to support either spell and with no talents they still match up somewhat evenly. Ofcourse, since you can have 0CD instant cast Water Globes lots will choose that now, but builds should even out once that's fixed.

And yes, Shield Throw is kinda on the weak end; I noticed that too in my first testing game. I think a buff could be handy here.
The threat modifier on Shield Throw is x3 though; so it DOES generate a lot more threat than crucify.

The threat is fine but it just feels too weak for a lvl43 Crusader skill. Can't you just put some utility on this so it won't be just a crappy ranged crucify? Like on the last hit, it pulls you to that enemy (Like a reversed Binding Chains sort of deal). Or you could make it able to hit the same unit multiple times if there's no other target in range (logically, it would be like throwing the shield with extra spin into the middle of the enemy for more damage, instead of the usual angled grazing for bounce). Or both, I could dig both.

Dispel/Meteor:

My issue with this is that Dispel is so good, and I'd like all mages to bring it to the table in boss runs. BUT! Everyone will choose meteor. Doesn't matter if the DPS of meteor is low (it obviously is), I'm gonna summon that shit while my healer dies to Frostbite. I'll make that choice every fucking time. And so will everyone else.

 

[EdgeOfChaos]

I think that there's a problem in the choice spell system: many of the choices are either obvious, or force you to give up a necessary spell for your hero to work. I also do have a problem with Soul Strike/Heal. I don't play a Monk, but I know its abilities and can see how Monk would suck now. For a hero who is already so rarely played, it seems like an unneeded nerf.

It makes early game cleric just boring. If you're playing in a team, you're obviously going to choose heal (since Cleric is the only hero who can heal early), and then you'll just be sitting there in between healing, autoattacking with your pitiful four-second cooldown attack. At least Soul Strike gave you something to do with your hero. Not to mention, it removes one of the two core skills for the hero.

I totally agree with Saiko. Symbol of Fury is absolutely terrible.

Meteor is needed for bm, unless someone else is bringing an equally powerful AOE. And even if they are, they'll yell at you for not having it. But I would always choose Dispel for fighting trash mobs or alch, which makes me think that this is actually an OK situational choice.

Also a random thought: no one will play the Sarash the Enlightened/Gartok the Slayer anymore. The only reason anyone did was for scrolls. Shame since it's a cool boss :|

 

[SaikoDeMoN]

I've seen enough Sarash and Gartok to last me several lifetimes. However, just running it casually for items/XP at an appropriate level will still be a thing. I think Shade is in a far deeper hole (literally), only druids ever bother with it. Would be nice if Zwieb gave a legendary soul drop chance boost to these bosses (not too much, maybe just double the normal red soul chance). They have long respawns so it won't be abused, but would promote more varied raid rotations.

 

[S0ulseeker]

My issue with this is that Dispel is so good, and I'd like all mages to bring it to the table in boss runs. BUT! Everyone will choose meteor. Doesn't matter if the DPS of meteor is low (it obviously is), I'm gonna summon that shit while my healer dies to Frostbite. I'll make that choice every fucking time. And so will everyone else.

Lmfao this comment made me lulz way more than it probably should have, BUT I just wanted to note I took dispel on my necro over meteor. I am the player parties don't want but the hero they need

 

[froz]

Also a random thought: no one will play the Sarash the Enlightened/Gartok the Slayer anymore. The only reason anyone did was for scrolls. Shame since it's a cool boss :|

It looks like upper chest that used to drop skill scrolls now drops Shade items. That's really nice for druids since they can solo Sarash/Gartok easily. Unfortunately that means shade will be forever alone in his dungeon