Beyond the Throne: Tides of Darkness

[Kam]

If the portrait and the model are separate, then the path is lost. You need to merge them before compression.

@Linaze: This is true, but this obviously isn't a straight conversion. =)

 

[Mechanical Man]

I don't even remember mammoths from any warcraft series (at least used by some race).

 

[Kam]

They weren't, I'm borrowing from LotR orcs here. Warcraft orcs never had blasters or the custom spells I've given them. I think the unit fits in though.

Orcs are about beasts, melee units, and dark magics. I never saw orcs coming up with catapults, if anything it would be goblins. Goblins have the blaster though, and I think a large mammal with tusks makes a perfect tier 2 siege unit for their race.

 

[Linaze]

I understand this isn't exactly wc2 in wc3, but the mammoth doesn't fit in at all. They live on Northrend, for gods sake, and the Orcs had not even been there before WotLK, so why would they persuade them to "join" their ranks?

 

[VeljkoM]

But the are people that sell slaves and creatures from Northrend to Dlaran.Maybe some clan took the ship.It is his map and he can put them there.

And WoW doesn't really have anything to with Warcraft lore since it doesn't have "real lore".

And to bad for the model compreson....Most models from hive have separated portrait from model.

 

[Linaze]

Besides, catapults have been in the orcish techtree since WC1, they just need to be trainable...

Bah, whatever.

 

[VeljkoM]

You do have the point.Even in Lotr orcs have catapults.It is more useful because of long range.
And nice map, no longer the barrens.

 

[Linaze]

Catapults fit very well with Orcs, mammoths however, do not. But it is not my project, just stating my opinion.

 

[Kam]

I understand, but I am trying to differentiate the races more. This is sort of a replacement for the kodo, which was a sad excuse of a unit tbh. The catapult was exactly the same unit as the ballista, and while wc2 was extremely balanced because of this, it got a little boring. Currently the mammoth has upped damage, moves slightly faster, has more hp, but of course must get very close to attack. Human towers are weak and they really don't require a ranged siege unit to kill, unlike orc heavy towers. If there is significant dislike once I release the next update I'll roll back to the catapult.

I also don't pay any attention to WoW, as it has nothing to do with the lore and gets far too many things wrong for my liking - but that's a different topic.

 

[VeljkoM]

You don't like much kodo.Well they have poor attack and war drum isn't that useful.
But I think I will like to have mammoth.but will you maybe give players ability to chose teams now and not lock starting locations?

 

[Linaze]

Well, replacing the catapult is one thing, but with a mammoth, there's got to be something more fitting.

 

[Kam]

Starting locations are locked for a few reasons:
-The hero spawn relies on regions
-Part of the trigger that stops the AI from reviving it's hero uses a region around the start location
-In order to allow choice, I would also have to allow choice of race, and then I'd have to have some stupid triggered box in game to select your race (so you can't be UE or NE), and I hate those.

In this version there is a ally/war system that can be used ingame, so anyone can ally with anyone. There is also a command to increase camera distance to medium and far heights.

Don't worry guys, I have you in mind when I make these updates. =)

 

[VeljkoM]

why don't you use starting point it self instead of the region?

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

Well, replacing the catapult is one thing, but with a mammoth, there's got to be something more fitting.

, agreed, the catapult just needs to stay in it. Why don't you add the Mammoth instead of replace it with another unit? You give the humans an additional flying unit like a bomber or something like that.

 

[wowcraft]

ok good i found ya again.. i downloaded the maps and threw them in my folder and all i can say is GREAT JOB absolutely fabulous.... only one issue i found is in one of the maps the name of the race/force is called back rock clan (Black rock clan) forgot the "L" figure i let ya kno for a quick fix for the next update also u makin anymore maps i'd LOVE to play more of these for sure. i ran into a site with warcraft 2 sounds if you wanna go all out... ill post site cause i see no harm in it.

"Warcraft 2 Sounds"

 

[VeljkoM]

Big map size and with sound files optimazing map makes it bigger instead of smaller.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

Big map size and with sound files optimazing map makes it bigger instead of smaller.

, idd. Sound drastically increase the map file size. But thanks wowcraft, I might use them voor a campaign.

 

[Kam]

Sorry guys I was in Switzerland. =p

If you are really that opposed to replaced the catapult, I suppose I can put it back in. I was just looking for a way to make the basic siege units different, as the catapult and ballista have the same stats.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

Sorry guys I was in Switzerland. =p

If you are really that opposed to replaced the catapult, I suppose I can put it back in. I was just looking for a way to make the basic siege units different, as the catapult and ballista have the same stats.

, had a nice trip ey? Well, you could do what I did with Grayworld: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/f202/grayworld-111927/ check the 4th and 8th screenshot (here's the model OrcWarStation - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site).

 

[Kam]

Ya I never really liked that model. It always seemed like more of a command hut then a siege weapon.

It's coming along though, there have been a lot of balance changes and some new spells. I just finished redoing the AI too, so now there are three for each race (easy,normal,insane). The current version has AI, but it cheats and gets more gold - there isn't an actual difference in the build ques or strategies.

I now have trouble with the insane ai, so I figure it's pretty good.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

It's coming along though, there have been a lot of balance changes and some new spells. I just finished redoing the AI too, so now there are three for each race (easy,normal,insane). The current version has AI, but it cheats and gets more gold - there isn't an actual difference in hte build ques or strategies.

, nice improvements.

I now have trouble with the insane ai, so I figure it's pretty good.

, is it to hard or to easy for an insane AI?

 

[VeljkoM]

Well blizzard did the same with their AI.And new spells sound fun.

 

[Kam]

I have trouble with it as in it's tier three in about 12 minutes and makes very good use of spells. Once I release it try playing with three insane AIs. =)

I was thinking of adding a starvation system, so if you lost farms and had red food use then some of your units will start to lose health. I have no idea how I'd trigger it reliably, but what do you think.

Baring any massive race changes, what would you guys like to see?

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

I have trouble with it as in it's tier three in about 12 minutes and makes very good use of spells. Once I release it try playing with three insane AIs. =)

I was thinking of adding a starvation system, so if you lost farms and had red food use then some of your units will start to lose health. I have no idea how I'd trigger it reliably, but what do you think.

Baring any massive race changes, what would you guys like to see?

, it's good that the insane AI is very difficult to beat. Starvation would be fun, use triggers like 'every seconds' as 'event' and 'if than else' for 'if' units 'arthemetic: now avaible food - used food= equal to - than player unit lose 1% health, if not than do nothing'.

I would like to have a 12 player map (for epic battles ) and more units.

 

[Kam]

Here's the thing with the unit numbers. Back about a year ago this melee had about twice as many units per race as it does now. It was too crowded. The unit distribution now is where I want it. I would consider a new unit if there was some role that wasn't being filled, but everything seems to have it's need met - light/heavy melee, light/heavy ranged, light/heavy siege, air, basic/advanced magic unit, light/heavy/stealth naval, etc..

I am always looking for new spell ideas and ways to make existing units feel new, but I am hesitant to simply add units. Years of modding in all sorts of games has taught me that balance and functionality are usually neglected when adding things if they don't have a specific role.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

I am always looking for new spell ideas and ways to make existing units feel new, but I am hesitant to simply add units. Years of modding in all sorts of games has taught me that balance and functionality are usually neglected when adding things if they don't have a specific role.

, that makes sense. I usually look if the unit matches the race, balance, is tactical and/or fun to use. I think this map has all the type units it needs (just as you said, light/heavy etc.). I would say, I you have any ideas that won't screw up balances and match races, put them in, if not, no big deal. I would still like to have a 12 player map .

 

[Kam]

I can't say it would get used very often, I had trouble filling a six person map usually. But I'll see what I can do, I'll probably use one of blizzards maps - the next version is going to be using existing blizzard maps I've modified. I will be turning my attention to some scenarios based on my lore for this map, sort of campaign like but without dialogue/cut scenes (just battles).

I just finished the starvation trigger. I settled on a loss of 5% of the units max HP every 45 seconds. It worked well in initial testing.

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

I can't say it would get used very often, I had trouble filling a six person map usually. But I'll see what I can do, I'll probably use one of blizzards maps - the next version is going to be using existing blizzard maps I've modified. I will be turning my attention to some scenarios based on my lore for this map, sort of campaign like but without dialogue/cut scenes (just battles).

I just finished the starvation trigger. I settled on a loss of 5% of the units max HP every 45 seconds. It worked well in initial testing.

, Ah nice, that starvation trigger is a really nice idea. Could you give me the trigger? I would like to add it in my upcoming update for Grayworld.

EDIT

You might want to see this site for a base for a map: http://www.warcraft.org/maps/melee/name/1

 

[VeljkoM]

Well sounds balanced.Now there is a point to destroy enemy farms.

 

[Kam]

There are some nice maps there, thanks for the link.

• Starvation
  • Events
    • Time - Every 45.00 seconds of game time
  • Conditions
  • Actions
    • If ((Player 1 (Red) Food used) Greater than (Player 1 (Red) Food cap)) then do (Unit Group - Pick every unit in (Units in (Playable map area) owned by Player 1 (Red)) and do (Unit - Set life of (Picked unit) to ((Life of (Picked unit)) - ((Max life of (Picked unit)) x 0.05)))) else do (Do nothing)
    • If ((Player 2 (Blue) Food used) Greater than (Player 2 (Blue) Food cap)) then do (Unit Group - Pick every unit in (Units in (Playable map area) owned by Player 2 (Blue)) and do (Unit - Set life of (Picked unit) to ((Life of (Picked unit)) - ((Max life of (Picked unit)) x 0.05)))) else do (Do nothing)
    • If ((Player 6 (Orange) Food used) Greater than (Player 6 (Orange) Food cap)) then do (Unit Group - Pick every unit in (Units in (Playable map area) owned by Player 6 (Orange)) and do (Unit - Set life of (Picked unit) to ((Life of (Picked unit)) - ((Max life of (Picked unit)) x 0.05)))) else do (Do nothing)
    • If ((Player 12 (Brown) Food used) Greater than (Player 12 (Brown) Food cap)) then do (Unit Group - Pick every unit in (Units in (Playable map area) owned by Player 12 (Brown)) and do (Unit - Set life of (Picked unit) to ((Life of (Picked unit)) - ((Max life of (Picked unit)) x 0.05)))) else do (Do nothing)

 

[[K40$]-Spectre]

There are some nice maps there, thanks for the link.

, your welcome and tnx for the trigger, going to add it immediately .

 

[Kam]

New version up.

 

[VeljkoM]

OK i found them.I will now test them and tell you my opinion.
And how come maps aren't same size

 

[Kam]

Terrain details and map size (playable map area) affect the filesize. Turtle rock is a much smaller map. =)

 

[VeljkoM]

I have played with orcs with easy, normal and insane.Guess who won?
He made so many ogres and dragons.He used those altars and those damn staff that drain mana.I hated those staffs they drained all my mana.So it works great.
But those spines that go all around aren't very useful since it goes in only 3 directions and you can't aim.
As usual dragons are not only expensive but not even worth to buy.
Units had 2 upgrades instead of traditional 3 but you probably wanted that way.
And fortress is the definition of expensive.
I think that this is all but i will keep you informed.

And how did you make gold mines to be able to have more than 5 workers inside.

 

[Kam]

I'm glad the AI proves difficult. =)

Unholy Spikes is meant as a defensive spell - so it's not supposed to be terribly long range.
Yes, there are only meant to be 2 upgrades for armor/weapons and the fortress/castle are meant to be expensive. Despite this the insane AI still has tier 3 in 12 minutes if you leave it alone though.
Dragons and gryphons are what you call spell platforms. They are inherently strong by themselves, but when you combine them with buffs they become much more. If you watch the AI it usually bloodlusts and hastes its dragons and gives priority to gryphons for healing. Not to mention they are perfect for base harassment, especially now that farms mean something.

The gold mine ability has a stat for how many workers allowed in at once. I changed it from 1 to 2, so now the optimal number of workers to have on a mine is 7 instead of 5.

 

[VeljkoM]

Well all units were under bloodlust.It was massacre.But still I prefer to make 2 death knights over one dragon or 5-6 trolls.
And also I forgot that limit is bigger now so i didn't have so many units.Insane was better because he had more units.I was hoping to try to cut of income by having more bases but he simply overpowered me with units and altars.Damn those warlocks are useful and AI can really manage them.But his death knights weren't so great or I simply didn't see them because of ogres.But I remember that he use death and decay on him self.I can give you the replay so you could laugh little.

Also i have noticed in quests (info what ever) the lore part.Could use some work don't you think?Like:
"Orcs from the Blackrock Spire have taken their chance to strike weaken alliance with their old allies Ogres and Amani trolls.Dragonmaw caln has once again brought the support of the might Dragons.The Black Horde is once again rising to conquer the Azeroth!"
and for humans:
"After many years of dieing and blood came short time of peace.But it wasn't long when the Horde raised up to challenge humanity once more.The knights are armed and set to face the orcs on field of battle with the old allies.High Elves from Quel'Thalas and Dwarves from Khaz Modan are preparing to battle the hatred enemies with new powers and weapons.Will Alliance be able to stand strong in this dark times."
(well after fixing some bad grammar it should be good right?)

Anyway I just hope I will find people that will play this map since I am sick of all hero based maps.I thought that Warcraft is RTS.

 

[Kam]

Yes, ever since hero arena back in the day and Aeon of Strife first came out (zomg you mean dota wasn't the first?!) every custom map is a hero "fill in the blank."

I like melee.

Also, do try the overhead view, it's interesting.

 

[VeljkoM]

I was now watching the replay of my test and seen how many mistakes and chances.
If I only knew how insane was weak at some point and attacked him then maybe I would won.And the double mining is really helping him.
But normal was pathetic.He only made archers and clerics.And easy only was making footman and archers but then again I killed him before that.

But problem is I can only play on garena and not B net and because of exp many go to afk maps.IT is worse then dota just 12 hours of nothing and only to be able to have better icons.

I also like to make melee but because of school and lack of motivation I stopped working on them.Maybe latter.

 

[Kam]

So guys you've had the map for a few days now.

Since I found a point to point portal system that is MUI, I'll be add that to the death knight and a nerfed version of mass tele to the mage. What ability would you say is not necessary or not relevant at the moment that is in their repertoire.

 

[Delterius]

I love the maps and your ideas, and wish best of luck with the modding even though i can't really help you with anything

Also, i couldn't agree more with your stance towards heroes but ever though of adding "commanding" abilities to them?Maybe like Devotion Aura or something.

Also[2], ever though of contributing with http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/f591/what-tides-darkness-120829/this project?Maybe what you've learned in these past years could be a good addition.

 

[Subject-154]

Dude. Perfect. I got my start in the War Craft world with Tides of Darkness when I was like... 9. 5 years ago. This is gonna be EPIC. If I figure out AI to any extent, I'll let you know. I haven't messed with editor in months and I can't even remember how to make heros auto respawn. >_<

 

[Kam]

Time to tease you. =p

 

[Kam]

Ok the new version is up.

Among other changes listed, heroes now have class based auras.

Intelligence - Brilliance Aura
Agility - Endurance Aura
Strength - Command Aura

 

[Elven Spellmake]

Hi Kam again. =)

Just tried the new version for you, and I would like to comment on it.

Firstly, well done for breaking out of the barrows theme, it looks much nicer now. Secondly the simpler feel is a lot nicer to have. Thirdly I see you have cottoned onto the model over at W3C (Oh do I hate that site, so difficult to navigate) for the Elven Destroyer. =)

However there are a couple of annoyances, the dragons still have the flame breath and a really wide area of effect, both IMO need to be lowered or removed... That in its self ruins it for me.
And again ships need a new makeover. The Elven Destroyer can kill the Battleship, whereas 2 blasts from a Bs in War II and they were dead.
Basically make the ships A LOT stronger, and I mean A LOT. Also make sure that the Elven Destroyer cannot kill the Battleship. I assume the same applies to the Horde, however I didn't spend as long on them. ;-)

Plus, I don't know if I qualify, since the changes I did to the skins were minimal (Re-colour and a change), but can I go into the credits? Under "Elven Spellmake (Elven Spellmaker)"
If I don't I'll remove this...

If I find anymore annoyances or comments I'll post here. =)

 

[Kam]

I'll work on those, and I'll add you to the credits.

The mod that rated my map in the map database reported lag when playing with the AI, has anyone else encountered this?

 

[Kam]

Ok "emergency" update. The lag should be gone. I also buffed navy units a tad and nerfed dragons breath by 1/8th damage per second.

Updated again, this will be the last for awhile.

 

[arthas_king]

the 2nd map got removed or i cant see it here?

 

[Kam]

I decided I didn't really like it, extreme symmetry bothers me in melee maps. I'm working on anther one though.

 

[arthas_king]

Oh okay my bad,anyway what is the other one based of?.Village?,ruins?