Wc2 Melee Hero units?

[Lurker99]

Hello Hive,

I am starting to work on a melee map that will take place during WC2, it will feature the various human nations and orc factions. I want the factions to be able to be used by custom AI which I will build. I'm am looking for ideas on several things that I am undecided on or cannot seem to find a way to have the game work the way I envision it, please leave ideas/feedback and tangible examples of how to implement.

- Heroes, I want to include a Hero like unit or units but am conflicted on how to do this, originally I wanted to have each faction have a (wc3 like) hero unit that would reflect their faction but I think gameplay will be too similar to wc3. I was now thinking that these special hero units will only be able to be built at tier 3, ie if selecting Lordaeron you can summon King Terenas from a the Castle once upgraded? I want the game to be more units focused but still have a hero like unit. Question is how do I make a hero like unit but have it be different then wc3 and still be able to be used by AI.

- Units stats, originally I was going to use wc3 stats with increased damage, so that battles occur faster but units can't simply be killed by one or two hits ala wc2. I am leaning toward a blend of wc2 and wc3 stats but would like feedback.

- Naval combat, while I would love to have this, I think it would be to hard to implement, and may remove (but save for a more water based map that I would build in the future).

- Faction selection System - I am looking for a trigger that will allow the use of the separate faction based off of what race and color is selected in the lobby but haven't seen this used before. I would prefer to stay away from a dialogue box.

General thoughts and feedback appreciated.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Hero AI: You could give each hero a unique aura and one or two skills, gaining levels via triggers (for example, a base defense hero gets extra experience when in range of his buildings or get experience for every tower built) or upgrades so they don't go creeping. Maybe assign them different AI behaviors (some go raiding, others stay in the base, etc.)

Statswise... I dunno, I guess stronger stats could work, perhaps by keeping 3's damage/health ratio with 2's stats. Part of the problem I always had was the difficulty in getting groups to go where I told them to before they got killed, which is mostly resolved in 3.

Naval combat: I agree that it's complicated and optional at best, but are you going to replace Kul Tiras with someone else (all all-elven, all dwarf, etc. faction)?

Faction selection: While it would go faster to pick a faction based on color, I think the dialogue box is your best bet, so as to shortly explain/describe the different factions and their unique points. Alternately, maybe a chooser unit/building at the beginning that displays faction info (much like AOS hero choosers).

 

[disruptive_]

New hero systems:
1. Each hero is like a flexible unit with only 1 unique ability or no ability at all, and upon recruit the player has to choose 1-3 abilities or traits from a common pool of "hero abilities". Conclusion: Heroes become just a tactical or profiled unit.
2. Each hero, and heroes in general, become available only after certain conditions are met, or by completing some related "quest". Then the hero becomes available instantly and can be used for a given time (think of the old Battlefront I and II games). Conclusion: Heroes become dependant on your units actions.
3. Heroes gain experience, abilities or levels by spending resources ( gold ), rather than by other means. Conclusion: Heroes become dependant on your units actions.
4. Heroes are not a unit at all and are just a "commander" unit (think of Civilization). Only one/two/three commanders can be active at any given time, giving passive bonuses to your units, unlocking certain or specialized upgrades, or other effects. Conclusion: Might and Magic.

 

[Lurker99]

Hey Thanks for the replies....

I like the idea of some Heroes (commanders) being created by different playpaths ie Killing 10 Orges, I remember seeing something like that on an old melee mod where if you builts walls and some other defensive things you would get a King unit that had some buffs? I am not sure I have the technical skill to build the triggers so that AI could use that sort of thing.

And yeah I would like some of them to be more base oriented than ranging like most wc3 heroes. One scenario I had was I would have a different Hero available at each tier, and if you select the hero available at tier one his skills would not be as good or powerful than if you wait to build the tier 3 Hero ie the King or Chieftain. This makes you have to choose when/if to build a hero or wait.

Regarding Might and Magic.... sorry I have never played... have you scene any maps on the Hive or elsewhere that use those types of mechanics, I would love to tinker around with those thing.

 

[disruptive_]

As i come to think of it again, the fourth system its not that similar to Might and Magic.
Just think of the fourth system as a card game feature, in which each hero is rather a toggeable "card" instead of a real unit (ie. Wc3 could be an ability), and that just provides determined bonuses to your army ( additional damage/armor/move speed/auras in general, certain updrades become researchable or units recruitable, additional resource gain, etc.).

________________________________________________________________
Pros:
I think the idea is very basic and achievable, but also very expandable:
- You can restrict the number of "card heroes" active at the same time (ex. , or do something like some heroes can't be active while
certain heroes are also active, etc.
- Depending on the current tier or other things you can have more card heroes activated at any given time, or the tier plainly determines the strenght or level of the hero (and the bonuses given).
- You can pick up artifacts that increase the bonuses of some recruited heroes.
- Contemplating the idea of adding/removing heroes to recruit (since they are abilities, you will just add abilities).
- Heroes could provide active abilities (lets say a Squad Leader type of hero provides all you footman the defend ability)
making your units the real protagonists even in the spectre of ability usage.

Also AI usage should not be difficult since you will need to order the AI to cast abilities.

Cons:
Heroes become like a complex toggeable upgrade, and not a real unit.
________________________________________________________________

Never seen a map with something like that, but if i would execute it while trying not to depending too much on triggers, i would:
- Determe a specilized building for recruiting and managing heroes.
- Create 2 abilities for each hero, one to recruit, one to dismiss.
Each recruit ability will say something like:
[Recruit: Michael Jackson the Legend (60 seconds)]
[Provides +5 evasion to all units that moon-walk.]
[Other units get +10% move speed so they can dance properly.]
Then the respective dismiss ability will say:
[Michael Jackson ]
[Bonus provided: +blabla]
[Some lore or flavor text]
[Click to dismiss this hero]
- Create a basic trigger, that will track the recruit spell effect, to remove the casted ability, and adding in its place the dismiss
ability; and vice versa, while adding the bonuses (when recruiting) and removing them (when dismissing them).
In theory you could just use Toggeable Abilities (like Immolation) but since they are very few and you may want to add lots
of heroes, there could be some bugs related to stacking order ids.
- Give the recruit abilities to the special building, and making sure that each pair of abilities have the same: icon (maybe different icon borders, so you now if a hero is recruited or not); hotkey; X,Y button position; also recruit ability must have "cast time" to simulate recruit time. They also must have different order ids in respect with each ability pair (via using a customized Channel spell).
- Preparing support/additional triggers if any (like a custom cast bar system, so you can now se the recruiting time progress) or other features (like a cancel button, to cancel the current recruiting order).

I'm not exactly sure that this will work 100% bug-free tho.

 

[Lurker99]

Thanks for the replies... was away for the Holidays.

Ok in order to get going on this map I think I will start with a trainable Hero similar to what we have, however it will function more in line with how a unit works. So I will limit the levels and change the damage/defense type to what the hero units represents vs having Hero armor and damage and they will be effected by upgrades ie Arrow upgrade increase the hero rangers damage as well. (Heroes will NOT have an altar).

Once I get the map working I think I will take you up on some of your ideas for the secondary or Faction leader unit, ie have to perform a task in order to get the King of Lordearon unit or I may make the leaders a non-avatar unit but have the XP goes towards overall faction upgrades.

If anyone is interested in joining to get me going with the triggering ect, I am all for that!