Tired of LoaP?

[Bettaxx]

I've been working on this map for awhile- its pretty close to finally being done. Some things I kept from LoaPs, but most of the stuff is thought up by me. Basic Features-
- No rigged units
- Completely custom map (terrain)
- No rigged players (all players would be "peasants")
- Houses are decoratable (with a "rotate" option for decorations)
- Heroes are based off of regular Wc3 units, so choose your favorite!
- Reputation system- are you good, or are you evil?
- RPG-ish system
I have a lot of questions, like help with leaks and stuff (because most of the house decorations will be doodad models) but I want to get this out for people to try. Its not done, some of the jobs aren't complete, triggers are still being worked out, etc.
Incomplete stuff-
- Haven't finished Bandit, Alchemist -Done-, Forest Ranger, and other jobs
- Triggers may leak
- other crap I can't remember right now

Hope you guys like it. And please, no posts about "LOAPS R GAI" or random flaming like that; read my post before you flame at least.

So try it out, you may like it. I'll ask for help with things I think may leak soon. No retarded suggestions please.
Edit- remembered some of the stuff I still have left-
- reputation shop has to be added, as well as decoration shops and raider shop
- have to come up with a house buying system (I think I'd like to use a different one than LoaP uses) -Done-
- the graverobber job is bugged because you can't quit it (fixing that) -Done-
- have to finish unit upgrades for Town Guard and Raiders
- have to finish a system where you give your unit something and they turn into something else (like if you are a Town Guard Captain and you give a normal patrolman a Plate armor he becomes a heavy patrolman) -Done-
- have to create side quests for that RPG feel -Too lazy to make so I'm leaving that off until V1.1-
- Need help with a gold trading system, like in Vamp Beast >.>

UPDATE: See above problems for fixes as well.
Added house buying system and alchemist for you guys to try out.
Just a few things about the system-
Yes, if you sell the key you lose the house. Yes, if you lose the key you will have to break into your own house. Yes, if you have your key stolen your house will be stolen.

I wanted it to feel different than the old LoaP house system so the key is an item that will open/close your door. It is not dropped on death and I am making a system so that they cannot be picked up by non-hero units; should be easy.

Anyways the new test map is up for downloading. Enjoy.

 

[inverted]

sounds pretty interesting man, ill test it out.

 

[Formula1]

Loaps are gai......

eh... I'm actually not a big fan of Loaps...
-COuld you put something in there so that I can take over towns/territory like a gangster?
--Grand theft auto style?

 

[Bettaxx]

bump/update

See top post

 

[Dr Super Good]

- No rigged players (all players would be "peasants")

Thats half the fun in LoaPs. . .
Not the rigged part but the players having different situations, units and goals. Thus a propper well made LoaP would actually have more of them but well ballenced.

- No rigged units

The deffinition of units in WC3 includes heroes, buildings and other such objects. Thus I highly dought your map will be totally ballenced and so there will be atleast 1 rigged build / method of playing or using a unit. This is not to say your ballence will not be good but perfection is a hard goal to achieve (look at DotA allstars, as that is still "rigged")

- Triggers may leak

Well then I recomend you aim to remove those leaks. The fewer leaks the better and also it is an automatic attraction point to play a map if you can assure that no leaks occur.

Anyway I wish you luck with your map and note that I have not played the map and are purly commenting on what content you promis the players.

 

[Formula1]

Thats half the fun in LoaPs. . .
Not the rigged part but the players having different situations, units and goals. Thus a propper well made LoaP would actually have more of them but well ballenced.


The deffinition of units in WC3 includes heroes, buildings and other such objects. Thus I highly dought your map will be totally ballenced and so there will be atleast 1 rigged build / method of playing or using a unit. This is not to say your ballence will not be good but perfection is a hard goal to achieve (look at DotA allstars, as that is still "rigged")


Well then I recomend you aim to remove those leaks. The fewer leaks the better and also it is an automatic attraction point to play a map if you can assure that no leaks occur.

Anyway I wish you luck with your map and note that I have not played the map and are purly commenting on what content you promis the players.

Agreed... in some sense....



TO Poster: Do you know how to balance units so i can be Rock Paper scissors?
Its pretty Simple, See my forum... I don't really want to go through it line by line...
Its in the Section "Balancing theory"

I don't think you should eliminate Riggeness... But you can epitimize it... And Work with it...

I'll help you out with this...

 

[TheDivineBoss]

I give a hint: Draps/Damage per second.
Keep all damages in the start on a certain amount. The example draps is 30/sec.

For example:
Villager Guy 1: Damage 10, so that means he has a cooldown off 0.33 seconds.

Cop Guy 2: Damage 30, obvious is it that he has 1 second cooldown.

Gangster Guy 3: Damage 60, gotta be 2 seconds then.

Try to do that if it works out.

 

[The_wand_mirror]

Your city is kinda dead, there are no persons walking around or vehicles driving around as far as i see... And i don't like the heroes, i thought every player was equal?

I do like some jobs you added, they are nice. Guidelines enough with reading the book, but i miss the life..

 

[TurboJyri]

I give a hint: Draps/Damage per second.
Keep all damages in the start on a certain amount. The example draps is 30/sec.

For example:
Villager Guy 1: Damage 10, so that means he has a cooldown off 0.33 seconds.

Cop Guy 2: Damage 30, obvious is it that he has 1 second cooldown.

Gangster Guy 3: Damage 60, gotta be 2 seconds then.

Try to do that if it works out.

Thats not balanced at all. Ganster guy hits and runs = gg.

 

[TheDivineBoss]

Well I left some factors out, so be quiet and make up your own ideas.

 

[Formula1]

Well I left some factors out, so be quiet and make up your own ideas.

HP vs Damage vs Range

Damage-1 hp, Medium range, 10 damage- Loses to Ranged unit
Range- 5 hp, Long Range, 1 damage- Loses to HP Unit
HP-10 hp, Short Range, 5 Damage- Loses To Damage Unit

Thats Rock Papper Scissors Right there....
If you want 100% Balance, give each one different abilities to get closer/further away with mana...
-Semi auto Potion of healing (Gives you a bit of time but Making sure its not so powerful that you will always survive an enemies attack)
-.25 duration of Divine sheild ("Dodging")
-Speed Upgrade- Run away, Run towards enemies

THats pretty much balanced

Or you can change the attack speeds of the units up while putting the damage per attack down. Add in some more HP to make each unit able to get to their range before they die

Yeah.....

 

[Dr Super Good]

The deffinition of ballenced is when all units are equal. This however does not mean stat wise but statistically. As long as a unit is on average as strong / useful as other units, then it is ballenced. For example for players to be ballenced, they should have a 50% chance to win every game if both players are equally as skilled (or it could be a stale mate where both never win or lose). The units and items they are using can be completly different with no stats alike, but as long as the end result is that both sides do as well, then it is ballenced.

However like stated, ballence is impossiable to achieve unless everything is identical which can lead to boring or uninteresting game play, thus some give and take is allowed with ballence. As long as nothing is noticably stronger than anything else, then it can be classed as ballanced (until an imballence becomes noticable).

This is obviously a long process that occurs over many versions but the time can be lowered by carefully thinking of spells, units, items and their uses when you are making them. By thinking carefully of the affects and useages of units, you can ballence them to a moderate degree without much testing at all. But in the end actual pratical testing is needed more than any other kind to achieve good ballence.

In the end, all items should have a use at some stage. All units should be worth building at one stage. All spells should be worth using at some stage. Basically if something is not used, it tends to mean it is too weak or it is physically less useful or effective than another thing (which may be too strong).

 

[Bettaxx]

Thanks for the comments guys but the part of players filling in different positions is played out in the Raider VS Town Guard conflict. You choose a side (or stay neutral and out of the way) and you can even battle people in the city, using crowds to your advantage, using high ground, and other strategies.
For instance, there is a hanging about to happen next to the Town Market Square. Huge crowds flock to the hangings, so you can use them to hide from your enemies.
This map has more of a PvP feel than a LoaP, I know, but I didn't want to make another LoaP. I just wanted something based off of it that would be new.

As for the living your life part, thats not really done yet because I still have to add house decorations and other things in. So hopefully it will get better.

 

[Formula1]

The deffinition of ballenced is when all units are equal. This however does not mean stat wise but statistically.

How else are the units statistically balanced except through stats?

 

[Bettaxx]

Um sorry about the heroes having mostly the same stats. I was being lazy with it and was planning to work out different stats for each hero later.
And for melee heroes, try buying a gun. I may bring the prices down on the things but then I will take the damage down too so still considering that.

And on another note the Alchemist job doesn't work right so I've fixed it but no update until the full release. Also fixed the give an item to a unit to make it another unit system as before it would give you a full heal.
And has anyone noticed that your own units will attack you if you attack them? lol

I will also maybe add some things that just move around like traveling merchants, etc to make the city more realistic. Although I never really saw that many units walking around the city in LoaP unless they were player-controlled.

 

[Dr Super Good]

By statistically, I mean via using statistics. Its a form of maths that takes into account chance and other factors.

 

[Formula1]

By statistically, I mean via using statistics. Its a form of maths that takes into account chance and other factors.

Chance?
But what is chance guided by?
1) Ranges
2) Damages and HP
3) Attack speeds
4) Unit Speeds
5) Chance that is given To a unit (Critical strike)
6) Collsion Size (Number of units that can surround and mass others)

THey are guided by definite things... not just "chance"

Throw two units that have different statistics togethor... some the same... some different...
-But make sure that they equal out in one way or another... one is probably going to win...

There is a science to balancing.. you don't need to spend days on end playtesting a map...

 

[Dr Super Good]

Yes, but equally well you could have units with 1 HP and 10 damage V 100 damage units with 1000 HP and faster attack. This could be totally rigged for the 1 HP and 10 damage units if you give them a form of curse with no cooldown and 100 % chance to miss. Thus abilities play a very important roll which you missed out on that list.

Also chance plays a bigger roll. As normal attacks are dice based, large swings in damage are possiable while still being ballenced. Also In the form of bash, small chances on weak units might be stronger than planned.

This is not counting the fact of human enginuity, where plans and stratergies that are stron ger then the ballenced ones are used which is the common cause for unballences (DBZ tribute). Thus in the end for good ballence, some phsical testing is needed.

 

[Formula1]

Yes, but equally well you could have units with 1 HP and 10 damage V 100 damage units with 1000 HP and faster attack. This could be totally rigged for the 1 HP and 10 damage units if you give them a form of curse with no cooldown and 100 % chance to miss. Thus abilities play a very important roll which you missed out on that list.

Also chance plays a bigger roll. As normal attacks are dice based, large swings in damage are possiable while still being ballenced. Also In the form of bash, small chances on weak units might be stronger than planned.

This is not counting the fact of human enginuity, where plans and stratergies that are stronger then the ballenced ones are used which is the common cause for unballences (DBZ tribute). Thus in the end for good ballence, some phsical testing is needed.

Unit abilities are a bit different from normal balancing......
-They can turn into a rock paper scissors type situation
--Mana Drain, Curse, Slow
--Things to think about are, Mana, Normal Attack, Armies, Speed

But like you said Abilities can be based on the tact of a person, which I believe is what it should be based upon... That and Skills of Reaction time, Semi auto attack amoung other things.... Though man can never out do machine in those terms.... Unless it does....
-What you need to do is add abilities based on tact instead of ROck Paper Scissors.... TO give people different abilities to work with as an Anti Army, Trap or this or that.... But to make sure that the ability has an obvious purpose and there are ways to counter those abilities...
Instead of just putting a moshposh of abilities and units togethor... eachone has a purpose... and what you do is maximize the amount of purpose each ability has.... while making sure that it isn't the End all killing machine...

When talking about unit to unit balancing... there are ways to do it differently...
-Chance is only allowing a specific unit type to get screwed when fighting another one...

True balancing Can come from making different units equal but do well against different Tactics...
-Like Running away-Increased range
-Ambushes-Hide ability

Though if these units went up against eachother in masses there would be an equal amount of units killed on both sides....
-if no one ran away.... If no one had the jump on anyone else.... they would be equals...

And then Adding in a CHance unit that could either get wrecked or do some major damage....


These are different types of balancing...
Check my forums for more...