The Sanctum

[Moderator]

20:44, 11th Nov 2014
StoPCampinGn00b: Map approved, I've opened the map and I've checked off all the map submission rules that apply to melee maps.

NOTE: I have given no rating nor review to melee maps with user ratings and/or feedback today so I have time to get the other maps that require more inspection. If you desire a review, feel free to ask; you may catch me unbusy.

 

[stan0033]

looks good

 

[Remixer]

I do not like that fact that some of the archs are floating in the thin air nor the fact that the "white walls" are not connected to each other properly. I'd suggest you to fix those just for the visual sake.

 

[Shadow Fury]

A simple melee map with the following issues:-

BAD POINTS:-
- The terrain didn't please me completely. The grassy parts were good but the city-tiled parts were not. Too much White Marble and no contrast between the colours of the tiles which is an effective way of letting Cityscape tiles look marvellous. Then the Round Tile doesn't look that fitting
- The item drops in the central part (at the fountain) are inappropriate. Random level 2 items for every of the 3 Berserker Elementals are underpowered
- I don't like to see the Grass not smooth on the Dirt. You see how the Grass fits smoothly on the Grassy Dirt right? Well, you can obtain the same effect with the Dirt. I will tell you how in suggestions
- Those cliffs at the bottom, where there are the lily pads, look terrible. Then the harbours are totally empty

SUGGESTIONS:-
- To add some contrast between the tiles, replace the Round Tiles with Black Marble (you have to do it from Modify Tileset)
- More doodads at the harbours (bottom part). Also some banners on all those archways would be a fantastic touch
- For the Berserker Elements, maximum two should drop an item of maximum level 6 each. It's up to you to decide
- Shift Left twice the Grass tile in Modify Tileset. When you press OK, you get the smooth result. If you think it's worse like that, you may always Shift Right twice the Grass tile

OVERALL RESULT
To conclude, it's a common melee map with nothing really original or effective for a contest. I'll give it 2.5/5 but rate 3 and vote for APPROVAL!

 

[sonofjay]

Nice to see the first entry on the contest is up!

 

[Filmting]

@Shadow Fury
I can see where you come from, but i don't really apreciate your reviews. It's my belief that you rate maps mainly upon factors of aesthetics, which is indeed alright, but for a melee map, or any map at all, should be secondary to gameplay. In the case of a melee map it is the layout, creep patterns, item drops, neutral buildings & other things of the sort, that would be the gameplay, and as such should weigh more. In terms of this map i would say that i have done a fine job on balance. In your "review" you write mainly on what you "personally" think would be better asthetically. I would disagree with you on certain aspects and i think the map looks superb, while still attaining a blizzardish style with not going too overboard or using any custom models. The map is an high elven theme which i rarely see, and i would say is original. The map supports multiple paths to any location on the map, a mixture of open and enclosed spaces, and creeping routes that supports each race. The main, really only, balance concern you raised was the 1 camp was dropping inapproiate items, and while i would agree with this, it would be relatively minor compared to the large amounts of positives on the balance side, and easily fixed. I find your review simply a disgrace and the rating way too low.

I would suggest you read my guide on how to make a competitive melee map, for some guidelines and insight on what makes a map balanced, so you hopefully can do better reviews in the future. I would also suggest try comparing maps to blizzards, if you're not already, and not other melee maps or alterneed melee maps that uses a bunch of custom models and other stuff.

Link to guide:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/general-mapping-tutorials-278/competitive-melee-map-252987/

 

[Remixer]

I am not sure if you even are interested, Filmting but I checked your map ( again ) and I am not really satisfied with your style of using the white walls. I'll list down the reasons:
1. They are not heighted by hand which causes there to be gaps between the wall tops and they are not covered with skin and they are transparent from the ends.
2. You placed the walls next to each other, which leaves a really tiny gap between them ( can be seen ingame as textures going on top of each other ). I'd recommend placing a short wall end in between each wall.
3. Some of the objects ( arches and walls ) are floating off the ground, or partly. I am not really sure if you'll see that ingame but it bothers me.

As the contest won't end until... can't remember date but not tomorrow, I'd suggest you to try out various ways to make the structures around the map just to get some perspective around.

I hope you don't mind but I made one myself ( are with tavern, left part of it ).

Image

Edit: And by the way, always edit the objects in object editor in order to get good results. ( For example the stairs in the image ) Even though I made that image in around 10 minutes you can make really unique and creative things with the bare blizzard objects if you just edit their size, rotation and pathing so that you are allowed to float them on top of each other and so on.

 

[Filmting]

I know, i also plan on updating the map in some days with fresh eyes, and some playtesting since long time left. Also won't be using any custom edited stuff, even though allowed. Not my style.
Edit: Also nice idea with the flower thingy on the wall. Will deff do that.

 

[UrijelV]

Nice map, looks original.

 

[Remixer]

I know, i also plan on updating the map in some days with fresh eyes, and some playtesting since long time left. Also won't be using any custom edited stuff, even though allowed. Not my style.
Edit: Also nice idea with the flower thingy on the wall. Will deff do that.

You can't do it without editing objects in object editor, I did not mean you should import anything into your map, just use object editor.

 

[Filmting]

You can't do it without editing objects in object editor, I did not mean you should import anything into your map, just use object editor.

But i just did ;>

 

[sonofjay]

As the only hivers, yes I'm the only one sir, who uses custom resource consistently on my melee maps isn't this a straight shot at me?

I would also suggest try comparing maps to blizzards, if you're not already, and not other melee maps or alterneed melee maps that uses a bunch of custom models and other stuff.

I'm offended! Lol. ;D

 

[Filmting]

Well if you do use that, then rate them based on how well you used custom stuff. All depends on the style you are going for. But if you are going pure vanilla, then don't expect custom.

 

[sonofjay]

I just read SF review and it seems that it really is bad since all he pointed are the bad things that he thought about the map and didn't even commented on many of the good stuffs that your map have like balance, proper placement of neutral buildings and creeps but your post concerning about custom resources doesn't make sense since he didn't really suggested or pointed out anything about that. I'm not gonna write a full review about this since I'm also a contestant of the contest but I still think this deserve more than just 2.5 that SF gave.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Cool. I like how this turned out.

 

[Remixer]

As the only hivers, yes I'm the only one sir, who uses custom resource consistently on my melee maps isn't this a straight shot at me?



I'm offended! Lol. ;D

I must say ( as a Blizzard resource user ) that it's really out of the range of sight when people tell you to use custom models ( two of my maps use custom resources ).

If one does not want to use custom edited resources then he won't there should not be pressure applied since using Blizzard resources only can be really rewarding and also give you good results, you can compare melee maps that use custom resources to the ones that do not.

I myself think that using awful lots of custom resources breaks the feeling of originality and it does not feel like "basic" melee map anymore. And if you go to the middle with the amount of imports it mostly looks awful as Blizzard and custom resources mix up.

I am not afraid of using custom resources but there is just a few reasons why I mostly do not:
1. Custom resources rarely look good when brought next to Blizzard environment.
2. It takes more time and also file size.
3. I can tell the map is made by me, not by the people that made the resources. After all you could not have made the map if they did not make the models & skins. So in my eyes the more you use custom resources the less the map is made by you in total.

Also a few reasons that I use custom resources for:
1. When there is no comfortable way of doing something with Blizzard resources.
2. When using Blizzard resources reduces the playability of the map ( players are confused for e.g. same icons for different items ).
3. When using something custom made can be supported wonderfully with Blizzard resources.

 

[sonofjay]

Its too off-topic so I hide it.

click

If one does not want to use custom edited resources then he won't there should not be pressure

If you actually read the whole conversation I never even suggested him to do so, he was the one who brought it up in the first place. I swear this isn't the first time people talked to me like this when I'm commenting in a melee map where they keep saying that I'm forcing the author to use custom resource when it I'm not even talking about it on the first place.

I myself think that using awful lots of custom resources breaks the feeling of originality and it does not feel like "basic" melee map anymore.

You're contradicting the point. I use custom resources to make my melee map looks original just check this, aside from me using the terrain of my High Road I never seen a melee map with that atmosphere and look before.

it does not feel like "basic" melee map anymore.

That was the point of using custom resources.

1. Custom resources rarely look good when brought next to Blizzard environment.

This depends on how you organize your resources. Does mine look awkward? Nope.

2. It takes more time and also file size.

So? Does people even care about this anymore? 8mb with my average dl speed can be dled in less than a minute

. I can tell the map is made by me, not by the people that made the resources. After all you could not have made the map if they did not make the models & skins. So in my eyes the more you use custom resources the less the map is made by you in total.

This is so hilarious. It just kills the point of modding community.

 

[Heinvers]

I can tell the map is made by me, not by the people that made the resources. After all you could not have made the map if they did not make the models & skins. So in my eyes the more you use custom resources the less the map is made by you in total.

No offense but why would we mod this game if there were no custom resources to bring more life to it?

OT: It's a pretty balanced map IMO given the usage of Blizz assets.

 

[Remixer]

@sonofjay,
I did not mean to say that you try to make him use them. No not at all, it's just that in my opinion it's up to the author. And with the originality I meant like basic Pringles, not any flavoured ones. Original = The first one kinda. So in this context, Original = Blizzardish ( Sorry if I wrote it... not in a good way ).

This is so hilarious. It just kills the point of modding community.

&

No offense but why would we mod this game if there were no custom resources to bring more life to it?

Yea well I did not mean that. I pretty much meant the the opposite of using the resources that are available.
It's like sure you can make amazing things with things here in Hive but I personally think it's good that some people show that you can also make amazing things without them. People should not underestimate the Blizzard resources. Also to bring up the point that if you are on Hive you do not have to use the things available in here and that it's okay if you do not want to import anything into your map, totally up to the author.

Sorry for the off-topic conversation, Filmting.
And once again, sorry for the messy outlook of the text, Sonofjay, I really did not mean to say you tried to tell him to use the custom resources, I actually wondered myself where Filmthing got the idea that some one said he should, maybe it was my complicated post once again. :x

 

[Shadow Fury]

As I would expect, people want me to give the maps 4/5 and 5/5 just because they themselves feel that the map is good. If a map-maker can't support some negative criticism and call the map reviewers "bad reviewers", then it's better not to post maps. You say I've been judging on my own tastes which is partially true, it's my opinion after all. However, if you want to let me believe that just because gameplay is balanced and the terrain looks beautiful to your eyes the map must get high ratings, then map reviewing is hard to understand for you Filmting. I think the map deserves around 2.5-3, if other people think it deserves more then why do you blame me? It's not that I gave that rating only due to the terrain. The quality of the map itself could be much more but it's only you who cannot accept some feedback and actually try to enhance the map.

Understand this before judging my skills, I try to help you but if you do not accept my help, then don't blame me for a low rating.

 

[Remixer]

As I would expect, people want me to give the maps 4/5 and 5/5 just because they themselves feel that the map is good. If a map-maker can't support some negative criticism and call the map reviewers "bad reviewers", then it's better not to post maps. You say I've been judging on my own tastes which is partially true, it's my opinion after all. However, if you want to let me believe that just because gameplay is balanced and the terrain looks beautiful to your eyes the map must get high ratings, then map reviewing is hard to understand for you Filmting. I think the map deserves around 2.5-3, if other people think it deserves more then why do you blame me? It's not that I gave that rating only due to the terrain. The quality of the map itself could be much more but it's only you who cannot accept some feedback and actually try to enhance the map.

Understand this before judging my skills, I try to help you but if you do not accept my help, then don't blame me for a low rating.

I do not mean to offend you but in my opinion Filmting brought up his opinion in really neutral way and even told you why he does not appreciate your reviews. He did not call you a bad reviewer and you should appreciate his opinion.

However I think you misread his comment or I do yours. Since he did not tell the map needs higher rating, but that he thinks that you value things he does not. This itself is a problematic situation when the map maker just can't give any value to your ratings.

if other people think it deserves more then why do you blame me? It's not that I gave that rating only due to the terrain.

You really need to understand that he did not blame you for anything.

 

[eubz]

I hope to see my pc fixed so I can have time to do something here.

 

[Eagle XI]

Hmm, seems unpleasant how those two shops and their distance to the mana-fountain is so short. Maybe should re-allocate those shops further down to 'pier's

 

[poeti]

It's look good.

 

[Ken-E]

Contest Review

Summary

The map stands out from the rest because of its faithfulness to the classic Warcraft 3 ladder maps but as well as mixing things up. At first glance the tileset seems to be vanilla but it’s in fact a great combination of Ashenvale-Cityscape-Lordaeron-esque. The description is overall interesting, with centering ‘Fountain of Mana’ as its power-piece in gameplay, however, that’s where the map suffers from execution, the fountain on the middle misses its spot when in fact it should be on the pond/lake below it, the reason is that the pond/lake is actually a more eye candy than those surrounding the fountain, not to mention that it’s just a darn shame that the area below it is uncross able with basic land units. Other than the combination, this map falls into a generic melee with several execution flaws such as a lot of doodads are simply cluttered and most of them are underutilize, ahem, there’s actually a floating trees and coral on deep waters. It actually destroys something that would’ve been picture perfect. Moreover, the terrain is too flat, few river-like environment is somewhat appealing but it seems that this map feels like it’s trying to avoid Blizzard cliffs while on the other hand, it uses anyway. Blizzard cliffs would looked even better on the base starting for both players, this way defending team will have an advantage on fending off the attack team with 50% chance miss on range attacks and sight decrease from units.
On the middle far of both right and left of the map, you’ll able to see the boundary touchable by units which looks ugly, this would’ve been easily remedied by adding Water then boundary, this way, it will look far more natural than units unable to touch a walkable path with boundary.
Creeps emplacement is rather well done, much like the terrain, it mixes both from Ashenvale-Cityscape-Lordaeron creeps naturally, and they feel like at home. Creep levels are tame, with one ‘red’ camp on the mid to suffice an entire match of 1v1. Items are pretty so-so, only 1 drop for 1 camp except for the huge one, also would recommend that you randomize the drops a bit rather putting ‘Level 2 –Permanent’ it would be better if you but ‘Level 2 – Random’. However, it feels like its missing neutral buildings that would’ve been better place on other creep camps. And finally! You forgot to calculate the shadows…
Overall, The Sanctuary is an okay map, but it has a lot of way to go.
Map originality – 19/30

Terrain/Layout- 10/25

Creep camp and neutral buildings – 15/20

Item drops – 7/15

Map presentation – 6/10

Total of 57/100