Sylvanas - The False Queen

[Shar Dundred]

_{[@Mods: Not sure if this is the right forum or if there already was a thread but I'd rather discuss here than in the WoW subforum and I couldn't find a thread like this]}

Good day/evening/whatever dear Hive community,

let's discuss something that's been bothering me since I first heard about it: Sylvanas and her Forsaken. In my opinion, their pure existance is nothing but another proof for the fact that Blizzard abused the lore of the universe in a really, really bad way for WoW.


Let's start:
I can live with the fact that Sylvanas' hatred allowed her to break free when the Lich King lost his power (I don't like it, but I can live with it). I can also accept that she betrayed Arthas and killed the Dreadlords, who deserved being defeated because of being so retarded that they couldn't even notice that their leader EXPLODED and their invasion failed. Someone had to clean Arthas' kingdom of his enemies - no, I don't like Arthas either but I'm having a hard time liking WarCraft's characters since the release of Frozen Throne anyway.
BUT there's absolutely NO REASON why the Forsaken should have a free will after Illidan's defeat at the Frozen Throne. Sylvanas' hatred couldn't help her to fight against the Lich King's control before and if everyone who hated the Lich King or Arthas could break free, how many Undead would remain loyal servants? Arthas would be quite lonely in Icecrown. Sylvanas should've gotten back under Arthas' control.

What I also dislike (although it doesn't really belong here): The Forsaken's actions.
I mean, it's quite obvious why Sylvanas couldn't join the Alliance - the other races wouldn't have accepted her for a damn good reason. But the HORDE? I can see why she'd want to join up with the Blood Elves (urgh...) but Orcs, Trolls, Tauren?

Forest Trolls. I hate them even more than the Dreadlords!

Nothing to add here.


So, why did Blizz decide otherwise? Why did they let Sylvanas remain independent and join the Horde? Yes, because the players wanted to play as Undead and so many liked the uncontrolled Sylvanas. That's it and I'm pretty sure many of you already knew that.
_{Why am I writing this, you might ask? Well, someone has to do something against the Sylvanas hype.}



Feel free to discuss this topic, but it's unlikely anyone will ever be able to change my mind about this matter.

 

[DEAD FiSH]

Sylvanas should've gotten back under Arthas' control.

I agree with this because arthas saved (what left of ner'zhul) very quickly, that was the point. Sylvanas shouldn't have had her freedom back because now the control should have been as powerful as it was before. But apparently it was not.
Now I like Sylvanas because I like hot undead and demonic chicks. I find them sexy.
But yeah Blizzard knows to mess up a story.
Also orcs shouldn't be in the horde because after TFT they are in good relations with humans and really stand almost neutral.

 

[istvan921]

Wash your mouth out with soup the orcs are in any relation with the humans but not good, the orcs burned Stormwind to the ground in the first war,and nearly exterminated the alliance in the second war, the humans are hating them almost as much as they hate the demons and the undead.

 

[Jaina Proudless]

I would rather have it that sylvanas keep her freedom but many other undead in lordaeron also gain it. I don't like this whole soul-fusing nonesense. In my book Nerzhul was tired of life without any pleasures and decided to abuse his champion to set himself free and arthas would have to get off that frozen seat sooner or later or he would die of cold.

Also, isn't it confusing how at one point she is a banshee and at another point a dark ranger? What's up with that? Did she possess some random elf survivor or something while nobody was looking?

Of course Blizzard went another route in WoW but come on WoW lore isn't really warcraft lore; warcraft lore ends with frozen throne. I agree with istvan that orcs and humans were not on good terms; jaina's alliance with them at hyjal was quite reluctant and after the raid on theramore all sorts of hostilities could arise...

 

[WhiteFang]

who deserved being defeated because of being so retarded that they couldn't even notice that their leader EXPLODED and their invasion failed.

I know,their so friggen useless.I can't believe i allowed the to join Abaddon's Fury.oops,sorry about off topic

BUT there's absolutely NO REASON why the Forsaken should have a free will after Illidan's defeat at the Frozen Throne. Sylvanas' hatred couldn't help her to fight against the Lich King's control before and if everyone who hated the Lich King or Arthas could break free, how many Undead would remain loyal servants? Arthas would be quite lonely in Icecrown. Sylvanas should've gotten back under Arthas' control.

This.I truly don't understand.He's even more powerfull than when she was under his control.Like you said there's absolutely NO REASON why the Forsaken should have a free will after Illidan's defeat at the Frozen Throne.

What I also dislike (although it doesn't really belong here): The Forsaken's actions.
I mean, it's quite obvious why Sylvanas couldn't join the Alliance - the other races wouldn't have accepted her for a damn good reason. But the HORDE? I can see why she'd want to join up with the Blood Elves (urgh...) but Orcs, Trolls, Tauren?

I dislike this aswell because she still hated the Horde before she died and now she joins them after she dies?Well done Blizz -_-

Blood Elves (urgh...)

You deserve a cookie for that

The orcs burned Stormwind to the ground in the first war and nearly exterminated the alliance in the second war

Good riddance

Also, isn't it confusing how at one point she is a banshee and at another point a dark ranger? What's up with that? Did she possess some random elf survivor or something while nobody was looking?

I think Arthas carried around her body.

I agree with istvan that orcs and humans were not on good terms

So do i and i doubt they will ever be on good terms

 

[istvan921]

I think Arthas carried around her body.

That's so sick man

 

[Jaina Proudless]

I think Arthas carried around her body.

I think my explanation is more reasonable.

 

[Kasrkin]

Still waiting on that kill the lich queen expansion.... Not even a smile? Wow tough crowd.

 

[Shar Dundred]

Still waiting on that kill the lich queen expansion.... Not even a smile? Wow tough crowd.

Well, *I* am smiling and waiting for that right now.

 

[VeljkoM]

Finally someone said it. And now I'll try to respond in equal measure.

1. Breaking free and staying free

Ok this part is where I disagree, it was not hatred but random chance. Illidan actions broke connection between Lich King and Undead in Eastern Kingdoms which is why Sylvanas and banshees became free and why Dreadlords managed to take the rest of the undead. Notice no effect in Northrend which indicated that distance is somehow a factor. But why doesn't Lich King reestablish control well I say because of distance but WoW I believe says forsaken now have immunity or something like it is biological illness. I would also like to add "What the hell happened with Kel'Thuzad and other loyal undead doing nothing?". Undeath is really odd in Warcraft (even more in WoW), I don't even see why undead corpses still need soul and why when Forsaken break away they become normal but in Wotlk "There always must be the Lich King". Honestly after TFT I expected Lich King to march back to Lordearon and finish the undead civil war instead of getting frozen on the throne and have mental fight and thus making the whole point of Warcraft 3 Arthas-Ner'zhul relations pointless.

2. Post TFT actions

Why did Forsaken joined Horde? Real reason is so Horde would have position in Eastern Kingdoms to mirror Alliance having Night Elves (I don't like Night Elves being in Alliance also). So you see the reason is gameplay perspective and maintenance of equal power between what are now for some stupid reason two superpowers locked in parody of cold war. Lore reason is not that great either. On the first look sure it looks obvious that Sylvanas needed help against Alliance but that doesn't automatically mean Horde is ok. What everyone seems to forget that Forsaken are humans beings (and some elves) which means they suffered the Horde and honestly many of the forsaken that were raised from the graves were probably even killed in the Second War. Horde on the other hand had no reasons to side with someone clearly evil, especially since whole point of going to Kalimdor was not to get involved anymore with human kingdoms. Horde jeopardized peace between Horde and Alliance by siding with Forsaken. Both sides have good reasons not to side with each other and Horde leaders expressed this but some random shaman group told Thrall that he must because Forsaken are cursed like orcs were and Horde is place for freaks nobody wants (don't ask me why). I just will never understand how Horde can't be friendly with humans but at same time they are allied with dead humans.

 

[Sylvie]

Blasphemy. Pure blasphemy.
Let's start the counterattack:

There's absolutely NO REASON why the Forsaken should have a free will after Illidan's defeat at the Frozen Throne. Sylvanas' hatred couldn't help her to fight against the Lich King's control before and if everyone who hated the Lich King or Arthas could break free, how many Undead would remain loyal servants? Arthas would be quite lonely in Icecrown.

She wasn't just raised as the other undeads, there were a ritual to remove her soul from her living body, She did break free because the Lich King got weakened by Illidan's Spell, so the Lick King powers, so to his control over the Undead were fading. Sylvanas, by this point, already have her body back, so again, still have her soul. So the Lich King was losing control over Sylvanas. Until she finally manage to break free. Such as the Dreadlords undeads and the pre-Forsaken.

Sylvanas should've gotten back under Arthas' control.

And why that? Even after he became the Lich King, his powers over here were already lost, that's why he didn't took control of the Forsaken in WotLK.

I mean, it's quite obvious why Sylvanas couldn't join the Alliance - the other races wouldn't have accepted her for a damn good reason. But the HORDE? I can see why she'd want to join up with the Blood Elves (urgh...) but Orcs, Trolls, Tauren?

It was already said in WoW, she joined the Horde, so the could survive against the Alliance, remember, there were no Val'kyrs nor Plague at that time, so it was just some renegade Scourge against the Alliance. Also to have an easier vegence against the Lich King.

Forest Trolls. I hate them even more than the Dreadlords!

Nothing to add here.

What's up with that? Everyone hates trolls in WoW history. The only "good trolls" are the Revantusk and the Darkspear.

So, why did Blizz decide otherwise? Why did they let Sylvanas remain independent and join the Horde? Yes, because the players wanted to play as Undead and so many liked the uncontrolled Sylvanas. That's it and I'm pretty sure many of you already knew that.

As said above, she would be defeated by the Alliance. And yes, it might be true, most of the Forsaken-players are actually Sylvanas' fan-boys. But this have nothing to do with Horde stuff.

So, that's pretty much it. Fell free to tell me if I'm wrong at any point.

 

[Jaina Proudless]

She wasn't just raised as the other undeads, there were a ritual to remove her soul from her living body

I was under the impression that she was raised as a banshee... Just a regular banshee not sure what this soul mumbo-jumbo is all about.


'After the Third War, the Lich King lost control of some of the banshees, including their queen Sylvanas Windrunner. Not long after Arthas raised her as a banshee, she broke from his control, taking fellow banshees with her. She regained her physical body and established the Forsaken... Sylvanas Windrunner, the first high-elf banshee ever created by the Scourge, later regained her physical form to become a dark ranger. It is not explained how exactly this occurs, but it is implied that it had to do with Sylvanas replacing former elven ranger druidic knowledge with necromancy.' - http://wow.gamepedia.com/Banshee

I like to think that sylvanas found a ranger survivor and used the banshee posess spell of her... Others like to think that arthas carried around her body and somehow to put the banshee back in it? Not sure if that comment was serious.

 

[Vinz]

Wash your mouth out with soup the orcs are in any relation with the humans but not good, the orcs burned Stormwind to the ground in the first war,and nearly exterminated the alliance in the second war, the humans are hating them almost as much as they hate the demons and the undead.

Admiral is that you?

 

[VeljkoM]

I would just like to point out like everything in Warcraft lore is subject to change in WoW lore. In Warcraft Sylvanas was raised as banshee and then suddenly had body. In WoW however there was a song preformed by Slyvanas that show what Sylvie is describing.

And why that? Even after he became the Lich King, his powers over here were already lost, that's why he didn't took control of the Forsaken in WotLK.

Because that is the whole point of Lich King. Literally that is his purpose to control undead (actually he could manipulate living too). Now WoW lore and its defilement of Lich King and ruining the whole point of TFT is a different story.

I won't repeat myself about whole Forsaken joining Horde thing, I think I have explained it well.

 

[Sylvie]

Her body? Probably it was in Quel'thalas, why would someone carry around her body? And it isn't just an elven ranger's body, it is HER body, as said in WoW. But how did she manage to take it? I don't know, but ahe was still Scourge when this happenes, so maybe just after Silvermoon's destruction.

 

[WhiteFang]

Her body? Probably it was in Quel'thalas, why would someone carry around her body? And it isn't just an elven ranger's body, it is HER body, as said in WoW. But how did she manage to take it? I don't know, but ahe was still Scourge when this happenes, so maybe just after Silvermoon's destruction.

Maybe Arthas carried it around to torment her.

 

[Shar Dundred]

This topic is NOT about how Sylvanas got a body. I remember that at one point I read that she took over a Night Elf's body but this was suddenly gone so they might have changed it or it was wrong in the first place. Personally, I don't care about that at all.

This topic is only about the fact that the whole "Sylvanas and the Forsaken" is nonsense that Blizz only created in order to allow players to play as Undead without creating a third faction.

 

[WhiteFang]

This topic is NOT about how Sylvanas got a body. I remember that at one point I read that she took over a Night Elf's body but this was suddenly gone so they might have changed it or it was wrong in the first place. Personally, I don't care about that at all.

This topic is only about the fact that the whole "Sylvanas and the Forsaken" is nonsense that Blizz only created in order

Sorry.
Your post isn't complete

 

[Jaina Proudless]

Her body? Probably it was in Quel'thalas, why would someone carry around her body? And it isn't just an elven ranger's body, it is HER body, as said in WoW. But how did she manage to take it? I don't know, but ahe was still Scourge when this happenes, so maybe just after Silvermoon's destruction.

That's just plain ridiculous; it creates more questions than it answers. How was the body preserved? Why isn't it a skeleton? What's the use of that particular body? Did they find the exact same spot of that body? If they did what stopped wild animals, ghouls, or anything else from tampering with it? The whole idea is so ridiculous and feels like so much ado about nothing... What's so special about that particular rotten carcass that one needs to go through all that trouble?

 

[Sylvie]

You seens to don't understand Shar's wish, let me remind you: Forget about the body. And be sure to know the lore before comming here. You just spamming body shit that is not even related to the thread.

 

[DD Mikasa]

I do agree with the part that Forsaken has no part in Hord.Like other people said.The bulk of her army was made of human/elven corpsess and some of them were victimes of orc genocide.
The only reason why Bilzzard allied them with hord was cuz players wanted an undead race to play. You could argue that Hord needed an ally in Eastern Kingdoms to make up for the fact of Alliance having night elves on Kalimdor IMO this is just a cover that Blizzard is using.They did it only for profit reasons just as simple as that.The only tie they have with Hord are Blood elfs and by now people know that blood elfs aren't the most reliable race around...They are just some gypsies who first were exiled from their homeland due to their filth and corruption and then Literally got R E K T by Arthas in their new homeland...Bah what a bunch of loosers can't even fend for themselfs.

The only reason why Blizzard keep's them inside the Hord is cuz players will start biching if they remove them. Even ogres deserve to join hord before them.

 

[WhiteFang]

Even ogres deserve to join hord before them.

They were.

Here is my opinion:the Forsaken needs to GTFO of the Horde

The only reason why Blizzard keep's them inside the Hord is cuz players will start biching if they remove them.

WoW is already busy dying..

 

[DD Mikasa]

They were.

They were part of the old hord where they were treatet as slaves not as members.

But ye either bilzzard put something big on the next expation or bye bye WoW

 

[Sylvie]

WoW is already busy dying..

Poor innocent creature...

Forsaken will soon leave the Horde tho, Sylvanas isn't loyal to Vol'in, and as she said in the Siege, she would never follow orders from a Troll.

 

[Shar Dundred]

Here is my opinion:the Forsaken needs to GTFO of the Horde


WoW is already busy dying..

Poor innocent creature...

Forsaken will soon leave the Horde tho, Sylvanas isn't loyal to Vol'in, and as she said in the Siege, she would never follow orders from a Troll.

This thread is not about the Forsaken being part of the Horde, but since I mentioned it in the first post:

Forsaken being part of the Horde is just nonsense, but the fact that the Forsaken EXIST is the blasphemy here. The only reason they existed in the very first place was to allow players to play as Undead - as already mentioned multiple times - without being forced to create a third faction.
I don't care for what happens to the Forsaken - the Lich King should take over again but since he's kinda dead and replaced, that's unlikely to happen soon. It's a disaster that they exist, their future should be destruction, nothing else.

 

[VeljkoM]

Because simply put good undead nations don't really make sense and that is what people think Forsaken are, or at least that they are misunderstood. Now without Lich King to be angry at, they have no purpose and should actually finally go to the afterlife. Though there is a chance that they are soulless actually so if they die they go in to nothingness and cursed half life seems like better option. Then again didn't Medivh managed to return to life not as rotting corpse so maybe there really is cure?

Personally I miss Lordearon too much.

 

[Sylvie]

Call up Aegwynn, then we can see that.

 

[Windrunner29]

The official story given by the high elves of Silvermoon had the Ranger-General having perished valiantly in battle against the undead Scourge in the defense of Quel'Thalas, and her body being burned to ashes in the fire that had devastated half the capital [...] Sylvanas, now an undead banshee, was a complete and total slave of the Lich King. In her undeath, she aided Arthas in his assault against her own beloved Silvermoon in order to secure the legendary Sunwell for the Scourge. Her mangled body was sealed in an iron coffin by Arthas, as a way to further torture the ranger.

from WOWwiki http://www.wowwiki.com/Sylvanas_Windrunner

 

[Sylvie]

So, Archimonde Supreme was right all along xD

I think Arthas carried around her body.

 

[Windrunner29]

So, Archimonde Supreme was right all along xD

not really because WOWwiki say that her body where burned and also that it was carried cl(

 

[Xonok]

not really because WOWwiki say that her body where burned and also that it was carried cl(

No

Story

The official story given by the high elves of Silvermoon had the Ranger-General having perished valiantly in battle against the undead Scourge in the defense of Quel'Thalas, and her body being burned to ashes in the fire that had devastated half the capital.

The true story was quite different. Sylvanas was not killed, but rather captured. Barely clinging to life, Sylvanas Windrunner was brought before Arthas. She protested, saying she deserved a clean death, but Arthas, having had to fight her every step of the way, responded by telling her after what she had put him through, the last thing he would give her was the peace of death. He desecrated her spirit, corrupting her body and soul, and brought her back as a whirlwind of torment and hatred. Thus, Sylvanas Windrunner became the first of the high elven banshees. Sylvanas, now an undead banshee, was a complete and total slave of the Lich King. In her undeath, she aided Arthas in his assault against her own beloved Silvermoon in order to secure the legendary Sunwell for the Scourge.[6] Her mangled body was sealed in an iron coffin by Arthas, as a way to further torture the ranger.

Don't abuse your quotes

 

[Duke]

My issue is that even if we somehow accept that the Forsaken didn't get under Lich King's control after Arthas took the crown, it still seems unplausible that Sylvanas would be able to estabilish such a powerful faction in the land where there is the Burning legion, Undead Scourge and fanatical order of paladins dedicated to exterminate all undead. And she did that with a few banshees? eh

 

[Shar Dundred]

My issue is that even if we somehow accept that the Forsaken didn't get under Lich King's control after Arthas took the crown, it still seems unplausible that Sylvanas would be able to estabilish such a powerful faction in the land where there is the Burning legion, Undead Scourge and fanatical order of paladins dedicated to exterminate all undead. And she did that with a few banshees? eh

My point exactly.

 

[Vinz]

Wc3.27 banshees buff; they are no longer consumed upon possession. Possessees may also possess more possessees.

 

[Sylvie]

The Scourge was weak in Lordaeron already. That's why a vast force of undead units served the Dreadlords. When Varimathras "joined" Sylvanas, so to joined his undeads. When Detheroc was killed, his undeads joined Sylvanas. When Balnazar was killed, his undeads joined Sylvanas. So now, she have a good a quite big army.
The Burning Legion left for Kalimdor. There were only some Dreadlords in Lordaeron, commanding the undeads.
The paladins, well, most of them were killed. The Scarlet Crusade was quite inactive during TFT. The only human power in Lordaeron was Garithos' army, and they were killed by Balnazar's minions and the Forsaken later.

 

[Windrunner29]

The true story was quite different

Don't abuse your quotes

Sorry I havent understood the turns of phrase.