Starcraft 2 new Battlereport!

[kingbdogz]

The Starcraft 2 website has started a new thing similar to command and conquers "Battlecast Primetime", it is called Battlereport. They released their first Battlereport in HD which is a 21 minute video of two players, Matt Cooper as Protoss and David Kim as Terran, play against each other on the new "Kulas Ravine" map with commentary by Dustin Browder and Robert Simpson.



Watch it, it is very interesting and the Hellions and Marauders have a lot of potential as you can see in the video. Even the Colossus if balanced right seems very powerful.

 

[Aeroblyctos]

Wow, I watched whole thing.

This stuff actually looks pretty much like Wc3 ladder just without heroes. I think it's better not to have heroes because they cannot be balanced good enough. For example Blade Master always wins Archmage, no matter what. And that's stupid.

 

[Zombie]

Update on the site. Finally.

 

[LordDz]

What does the towers on the map do?

 

[Mechanical Man]

Heh, now the terrans are even more screwed. In sc1 they at least had firebats to counter zealots, now they don't have any defence against zealot rush.

 

[Arvedui]

I watched it and I loved it.

The towers give you an area of vision that's permanent, I think. Or they could be like the comsat station or w/e.

I can't wait till it comes out.. Alpha stage bah.

 

[kingbdogz]

Heh, now the terrans are even more screwed. In sc1 they at least had firebats to counter zealots, now they don't have any defence against zealot rush.

Not really, people that played as the terrans said that you can use the M&M combo (Marine and Marauder). You put the marauders at the front, slowing down the zealots and the marines at the back killing them. Marauders only do large damage on heavy armoured units like siege tanks or the colossus, so you use them as meat shields for light armoured units like zealots.

 

[Dreadnought[dA]]

Zealots do look to be beasts against the Terran, but I have to say Marauders seem to counter everything the protoss have except Zealots so... Hopefully Protoss get more infantry units to fight with other than just Zealots and Dark Templar.

 

[kingbdogz]

Zealots do look to be beasts against the Terran, but I have to say Marauders seem to counter everything the protoss have except Zealots so... Hopefully Protoss get more infantry units to fight with other than just Zealots and Dark Templar.

Well so far the only good counter is the Immortal which comes late game, because their hardened shields would protect them from the Marauders bonus damage to armored units. They really need to fix Protoss because atm they get owned too easily late game.

 

[LordDz]

Heh, now the terrans are even more screwed. In sc1 they at least had firebats to counter zealots, now they don't have any defence against zealot rush.

Wasn't firebats one of the least used units? Only used against Zeals and lings?

 

[kingbdogz]

Anyway, they have Hellions which are ranged, better then bats, and have better damage and AoE. And they only require a Factory.

 

[Zombie]

I've just watched it, I didn't have time before. The game was awesome, I can't wait to see at least the beta version. I tought the Protoss dude is going to win, because he started off so nicely. In the beginning, the protoss seemed to have the adventage, those zealots are reeeally strong. They pwned the Marauders like hell, I think running with those marauders from the zealots was not a wise choice, since the zealots seem to be 10 times faster, not to mention the charge ability. The ending was great, the Terran dude nicely rushed in the base, and managed to split the protoss forces into two, therefore, he could pwn them easily. The game could have been longer tough.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Not really, people that played as the terrans said that you can use the M&M combo (Marine and Marauder). You put the marauders at the front, slowing down the zealots and the marines at the back killing them. Marauders only do large damage on heavy armoured units like siege tanks or the colossus, so you use them as meat shields for light armoured units like zealots.

This way you must invest much more money than your enemy, especiallly if marines deal that crappy damage as they did in sc1. I think that marauder costs too much and is too weak to serve as meatshield.

Wasn't firebats one of the least used units? Only used against Zeals and lings?

They weren't much useful in late game yes. But in the early game they could save a terran player. With just marines you can't stop increasing number of zealots pouring in your base.

Anyway, they have Hellions which are ranged, better then bats, and have better damage and AoE. And they only require a Factory.

Before you build a factory, your base will be already full of zealots.

 

[Zombie]

The unfortunate thing is that we didn't see too much activity from the marines in that report, so marines could be more useful than in SC1. Zealots became a lot stronger, so marines are bound to have a new ability at least.

 

[Mechanical Man]

I hope so. The marines are similar to wh40k ones, but there they are the strongest standard soldier in the whole universe, while here they are puny weak expendable troops, beaten by any unit, more like guardsmen.

Did they even add some anti-rush measures like there are in warcraft?

 

[Zombie]

Well, we still gotta see the game at least in beta stage. I hope they are going to refit the marines with either a stronger armor or a new ability, because in that vid the marines had no chance against a zealot.

I hope they'll be relasing another battle vid soon, since we didn't see a lot of units in-action, like the Ghost or the Reaper. A game with a zerg player would be awesome, but I know they are 90% in developement.

EDIT: My biggest surprise was the sight of usable Xel'Naga buildings. I didn't know they'll be usable in skirmish games D:

 

[LordDz]

They weren't much useful in late game yes. But in the early game they could save a terran player. With just marines you can't stop increasing number of zealots pouring in your base.

Hmm.. Planetary Defense? Or what's it's called, the upgrade for the Command Center.
I'm sure there's some way.

I also like the way of those destroyable rocks.. Could take some time for a Marine to take them down (2000hp).

 

[Mechanical Man]

But the upgrade means that you will need to spend your precious time and resources in very early game.

 

[kingbdogz]

Well first of all the marines got a huge HP boost (forgot what number but the HP boost it got for a marine was really good) and they also got the new Shield upgrade that adds even more HP, that way you can use the HP shield for late game and it will make the marine useful in all stages of the game. The Xel Naga towers are towers that give visibility in an area to the closest unit's player. So if a red players unit is next to the tower it will power up and give vision in that area. Since there are only a few Towers in each map there is always a fight for the Towers.

 

[LordDz]

I'll steal some facts again:
Terran Marine - Starcraft 2 Armory
HP: 45 (5 more than in SC1!!! OMG!!!)
HP with shield: 60. Now that's pretty good. (and quite cheap to research, 150 minerals and gas).

 

[Zombie]

Why? You can do a lot with 60 HP, especially against zerglings. Btw, LordDz, that site has a lot of useful infromation which has been unknown to me so far. The zealot lost 10 HP to his shields, but got a new, useful ability. Still, the zealot has two times more HP than the marine, fully upgraded.

 

[LordDz]

Well. One zealot = 100 minerals, two Marines = 100 minerals.
One Zealot = 100+50hp Two marines = 120 hp. It's quite close .

You can also add that the Protoss needs to upgrade TWO armors instead of one as the terrans do.

 

[Zombie]

We should also take the ranged damage the marines deal to the zealots into account. A marine can fire a burst at the zealot before the zealot attacks him, not to mention if the marine is on a hill. I hope we'll see if two marines can handle a zealot soon

 

[kingbdogz]

I'll steal some facts again:
Terran Marine - Starcraft 2 Armory
HP: 45 (5 more than in SC1!!! OMG!!!)
HP with shield: 60. Now that's pretty good. (and quite cheap to research, 150 minerals and gas).

5 hp still makes a difference, i mean zerglings haven't got much of a boost so marines will be more effective (anyway i was misleaded someone said they got 15 hp boost from the start not with the shield so it's not my bad)

 

[LordDz]

Still, Marines will be pretty close to Zealots.

Two Marines(60+60) = 1 Zealot (100+50hp)

 

[Newuser]

Wasn't firebats one of the least used units? Only used against Zeals and lings?

Mainly because they have "concussion" damage type, 100% damage to small units, 50% to medium units, 25% to large.

Since "most" tier 1 or 2 units were the only ones that were small, Firebats weren't very useful at all(I mean 25% damage only to Large units? That's kind of low).

Regarding the balance talk the last few posts, remember that they're always changing the game(as development progresses, and after th game comes out) so it's best not to talk about balance until the game actually comes out.

Though in terms of balance and matches in Starcraft 1, you can watch videos of pro Korean players to see their strategies and stuff.

Although, Starcraft 2 seems a little more rock-paper-scissory(where one unit, "completely" counters another unit) than Starcraft 1.

We probably won't see things where players use mostly Marine and Medics(occasionally a tank or two), then moving onto Science Vessels against Zerg in Starcraft 2 because of the rock paper scissoryness.

Here's why I think it'll be more "rock paper scissory"

Post

From reading what new units are introduced, the game seems to be more leaning on the "rock-paper-scissor" style gameplay(In terms of "resource comparison", for example, 2000 gold worth of Siege Engines being able to counter 6000 gold worth of Chimeras, Starcraft 1 had a smaller "resource gap" between unit counters).

In one of the Q&A batches, Karune described how he used one of the new units, the Jackal, managed to beat an entire army of Marines easily, (6v15) without losing a unit.
Not to mention the Immortals, which counter units with high damage but lose to low damage units. Warp Rays, which counter units with high health but lose against low health units.

You could say Scourges countered air units but they aren't fool-proof against air. It's not like you can mass scourges and expect to win against an army of air units(due to the fact most air units can be microed to kill the scourges), unlike WC3 which had Siege Engines, Gargoyles, Hippogryphs, Crypt Fields, Dryads(vs magic air units), etc which all either completely decimated air or were immune to air units(Dryads), Starcraft 1 doesn't have anything like that.

Closest thing was Firebat countered/decimated tier 1 lings and (but Firebats lose against upgraded lings), Defilers effective against all Terran units with plague, Psi Storm countered low health units(and effective against everything else), and Science Vessels effective against all Zerg units.

Last but not least, damage types and armor types which are being added to Starcraft 2(which are going to be similar to Warcraft 3's damage/armor types).
In Starcraft 1, the damage types were very simple, there was only 3 damage types and armor types: Explosive(100% to large units). Normal(100% to everything), and concussive(100% to small)(only firebats, vulture, and ghosts had this damage type).

In general, damage types simply meant that larger units were more balanced against smaller units, and concussive simply meant ghosts sucks, firebats are only good against zealots/lings, and vultures were good against small units but are mostly used for planting mines.

In general, Starcraft 2 seems more rock-paper-scissory to me. Basically, that means Starcraft 2 probably will require more of a "mix" of units rather than using most of the same units (for example, Medic and Marines can be used throughout the most of the game against Zerg, science vessels and maybe tanks were used later on).

 

[PurplePoot]

This way you must invest much more money than your enemy, especiallly if marines deal that crappy damage as they did in sc1. I think that marauder costs too much and is too weak to serve as meatshield.

Marines did insane damage in SC1.

They weren't much useful in late game yes. But in the early game they could save a terran player. With just marines you can't stop increasing number of zealots pouring in your base.

Bunkers?

Before you build a factory, your base will be already full of zealots.

You'd be surprised how fast you can pull a factory, at least in SC1.

I hope so. The marines are similar to wh40k ones, but there they are the strongest standard soldier in the whole universe, while here they are puny weak expendable troops, beaten by any unit, more like guardsmen.

Did they even add some anti-rush measures like there are in warcraft?

I don't see what you have against marines... Anyhow, why would you want anti-rush measures? StarCraft is meant to be about being on your feet, not sitting around and teching.

We should also take the ranged damage the marines deal to the zealots into account. A marine can fire a burst at the zealot before the zealot attacks him, not to mention if the marine is on a hill. I hope we'll see if two marines can handle a zealot soon

Two marines shouldn't be able to handle a zealot for balance's sake.

Why?

• Marines are ranged, Zealots are melee.
• Terran can use Medics/Medivacs, Protoss can't.
• Marines get stim packs and such, which Zealots really can't compete with.

Although, Starcraft 2 seems a little more rock-paper-scissory(where one unit, "completely" counters another unit) than Starcraft 1.

How's that? We see such examples as Marauders - they're slightly better vs armoured targets, but they are still decent versus infantry, and armoured targets are still decent versus them.

In one of the Q&A batches, Karune described how he used one of the new units, the Jackal, managed to beat an entire army of Marines easily, (6v15) without losing a unit.
Not to mention the Immortals, which counter units with high damage but lose to low damage units. Warp Rays, which counter units with high health but lose against low health units.

Lurkers anyone? As for the second part, take Siege Tanks for example. They technically suck versus infantry (due to 50% damage reduction), but are still amazing support against enemy infantry when they have more versatile units (like marines or vultures) covering them.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Marines did insane damage in SC1.

Only 1 more than zergling, at the slow fire rate.

Bunkers?

Zealots can overpower marine filled bunkers fairly quickly

You'd be surprised how fast you can pull a factory, at least in SC1.

Not fast enough, it costs 100 gas which needs you to build the refinery quickly which means less infantry troops. Zealots are first unit.

I don't see what you have against marines... Anyhow, why would you want anti-rush measures? StarCraft is meant to be about being on your feet, not sitting around and teching.

Warcraft has anti-rush measures, yet is a game where you do not sit around and tech.

Two marines shouldn't be able to handle a zealot for balance's sake.

Why?

* Marines are ranged, Zealots are melee.
* Terran can use Medics/Medivacs, Protoss can't.
* Marines get stim packs and such, which Zealots really can't compete with.

With all support and upgades marines can handle zealots yes, but the problem is at very start. thats why the anti-rush measures are needed, so it won't be 4 zealots destroying your entire base.

 

[PurplePoot]

Only 1 more than zergling, at the slow fire rate.

Consider the fact that they're small, ranged, cheap, and have stim packs.

Zealots can overpower marine filled bunkers fairly quickly

Drop an SCV repairing the bunker and it can take a long time. Additionally, on some maps you can wall your base off with a barracks and a supply depot, which means a marine can drive off several zealots.

Not fast enough, it costs 100 gas which needs you to build the refinery quickly which means less infantry troops. Zealots are first unit.

By the time they find you, get to your base, and have enough guys that they won't be trashed by SCVs, you can at least have a vulture or two, especially if you walled your base as suggested above.

Warcraft has anti-rush measures, yet is a game where you do not sit around and tech.

You hardly do any fighting in warcraft until tier 2, except for a few... (rigged in my opinion) heroes such as Blademaster.

With all support and upgades marines can handle zealots yes, but the problem is at very start. thats why the anti-rush measures are needed, so it won't be 4 zealots destroying your entire base.

If they have 4 zealots, you can have a hell of a lot more than 4 marines. 10 or 12 at least if you power marines, and still a significant amount if you don't. Also, you're defending; use that to your advantage! Use the terrain, use the shape of your base, use your SCVs, etc. Note that as much as you seem to think that Terrans can't defend against a Protoss rush, Terrans do just fine in the pro league.

---

I should also note that two marines beat a zealot if microed well.

 

[PersicuteU]

Terran Marines are cheaper than Zealots by double the price and spawn quicker. Terrains can wall in there base and I believe in Starcraft2 scvs can be turned into defensive units I think.... You can also upgrade your command center to attack but I know you guys are talking about rushes. Anyways the Protoss zealot charge ability has to be upgraded. Blizzard wants to make all units use-able and not just needed in the begging until tier2/tier3 and become unless. The point was to make all tier units used together in game play and needed together to be effective.

P.S Starcraft is known for it's balance. I don't believe everything is perfect but it's one of the most balanced RTS games out there. I believe they even market this "balanceness" of Starcraft that makes it so great and even considered a sport in some countries, lol.

 

[Zombie]

• Marines are ranged, Zealots are melee.
• Terran can use Medics/Medivacs, Protoss can't.
• Marines get stim packs and such, which Zealots really can't compete with.

You certainly have a point there, but Mechanical Man is right, there should defnately be anti-rush measures, since it would be way too easy for the protoss. Btw, the medic is not even in Alpha stage, so there might be a few suprises left for us.