RaceLaneWars v2.8

[Deleted member 247165]

Had a lot of fun playing this. I'm waiting for the next update to give you a proper feedback

 

[twojstaryjakcie]

The map, albeit quite simple and straightforward, is quite fun, especially since it offers such a wide range of races. However, there are some issues that are holding the map back in terms of its gameplay value.

The main problem of this map is its tendency to favor hoarding resources and releasing numerous powerful units at once. I understand you wanted to prevent tier-1 unit spam with the Lumber cost, however I think you should rather introduce certain cooldowns and base amounts on units. Low-tier, weak units could have high limits and low cooldown whereas the higher tier ones would become increasingly higher to obtain. I'm mentioning it, because I've played around 10 games and every game I won ended in me saving up a ton of money and releasing several highest tier units at once (Actually, when I played Echo Trolls, I didn't even have to get the highest tier unit - I just spammed Shadow Hunter - he's insane; I literally made only Shadow Hunters and lost zero units since they all kept healing themselves and had very high health and damage <I suppose Shadow Hunter could be nerfed a bit, but you could still give him some mana regen, since right now it's 0>).

The hoarding problem is also a result of being punished for early aggression - the towers are very deadly against low-tier units, whereas high-tier units shred them to pieces (moreover, cannon towers are completely countered by flying units, so I guess that's also an issue). I'd suggest increasing the gold reward for killing towers, so that people who actually utilize the weaker units can be rewarded, since right now, they just invest a lot of resources in the push, get 400 gold for the towers and then feed the opponent with income, since the next set of towers is even deadlier than the previous one. Probably instant 600 gold per tower and an income bonus from increased from 250 to 300. The cannon towers are rewarding already, but they should be able to have some anti-air attack (not too powerful, but it should be there to make sure that they aren't killed by a single flyer). This would force players to respond to the aggression rather than just wait until an opponent just loses all their units and then respond with a more powerful army, since if they lose the towers, that'll give their opponent a significant advantage. By the way, the last building which, upon being destroyed, ends the game, could have more hitpoints. Right now, destroying the last tower means there's no chance for comeback for the player being attacked. If, however, the last building had, say, 2500 hitpoints instead of 1000, it would actually help players recover from unexpected heavy pushes.

Another issue I have with the map is that most of the special abilities are pretty underwhelming and very situational - the bonus income for the Mercenary race doesn't really pay off, Mana Bonus for Undead is way too expensive, Demon Portal is only useful if used at the start of the game (I feel like this should be more of a late game ability - it would cost about twice as much and spawn numerous Hell Hounds; that way, it could synergize with Dark Ritual, which in fact, is a very cool ability), Goblin upgrade ability is very expensive and confusing (does it affect only units that are already on the battlefield?). I could go on, but there's way too many abilities to cover them all - the conclusion is, most of them are underpowered and much less beneficial than simply making units. The only abilities that I came across and found useful is Dark Ritual for Demons and Mass Bloodlust for Orc, the rest could be a bit buffed in order to become more used (mostly price reduction; for example, it's really not too profitable to pay 6000 gold just to give some of my Mercenary units a few abilities until they die - maybe the ability could give back gold based on how many and what leveled units it affected <if it only affects one Apprentice, it would give most of the gold back; however, if the ability was used while numerous Mercenary Knights were on the battlefield, it would give no gold back - just a suggestion, but it would surely make the game much more enjoyable>).

Also, the upgrades are pretty much useless - incredibly expensive and giving very minor bonuses. Even in the super late game, it's much better to just continue making units, because you'd need a ridiculous amount of units for the upgrades to be even a bit noticable. I only used the defense upgrade for Doom Lord, since he's got hero armor and he's very tough, so he actually benefits from that noticably, but apart from that, not even once. I'd strongly suggest lowering upgrade prices, especially the damage ones, by at least 500 gold, or even better, adjusting the prices to each race individually. I know it takes a lot of time, but that way, the game becomes more balanced and interesting.

The map is enjoyable even in its current state, but if you took some to fix the issues I mentioned above, this map would turn into a very high quality Tug-of-War game.

Edit: You need to credit the authors of the resources not only in the loading screen, but in the map description as well. Credit in map description is actually more important. Please, don't forget about that.

 

[Jaybiooh]

The map, albeit quite simple and straightforward, is quite fun, especially since it offers such a wide range of races. However, there are some issues that are holding the map back in terms of its gameplay value.

The main problem of this map is its tendency to favor hoarding resources and releasing numerous powerful units at once. I understand you wanted to prevent tier-1 unit spam with the Lumber cost, however I think you should rather introduce certain cooldowns and base amounts on units. Low-tier, weak units could have high limits and low cooldown whereas the higher tier ones would become increasingly higher to obtain. I'm mentioning it, because I've played around 10 games and every game I won ended in me saving up a ton of money and releasing several highest tier units at once (Actually, when I played Echo Trolls, I didn't even have to get the highest tier unit - I just spammed Shadow Hunter - he's insane; I literally made only Shadow Hunters and lost zero units since they all kept healing themselves and had very high health and damage <I suppose Shadow Hunter could be nerfed a bit, but you could still give him some mana regen, since right now it's 0>).

The hoarding problem is also a result of being punished for early aggression - the towers are very deadly against low-tier units, whereas high-tier units shred them to pieces (moreover, cannon towers are completely countered by flying units, so I guess that's also an issue). I'd suggest increasing the gold reward for killing towers, so that people who actually utilize the weaker units can be rewarded, since right now, they just invest a lot of resources in the push, get 400 gold for the towers and then feed the opponent with income, since the next set of towers is even deadlier than the previous one. Probably instant 600 gold per tower and an income bonus from increased from 250 to 300. The cannon towers are rewarding already, but they should be able to have some anti-air attack (not too powerful, but it should be there to make sure that they aren't killed by a single flyer). This would force players to respond to the aggression rather than just wait until an opponent just loses all their units and then respond with a more powerful army, since if they lose the towers, that'll give their opponent a significant advantage. By the way, the last building which, upon being destroyed, ends the game, could have more hitpoints. Right now, destroying the last tower means there's no chance for comeback for the player being attacked. If, however, the last building had, say, 2500 hitpoints instead of 1000, it would actually help players recover from unexpected heavy pushes.

Another issue I have with the map is that most of the special abilities are pretty underwhelming and very situational - the bonus income for the Mercenary race doesn't really pay off, Mana Bonus for Undead is way too expensive, Demon Portal is only useful if used at the start of the game (I feel like this should be more of a late game ability - it would cost about twice as much and spawn numerous Hell Hounds; that way, it could synergize with Dark Ritual, which in fact, is a very cool ability), Goblin upgrade ability is very expensive and confusing (does it affect only units that are already on the battlefield?). I could go on, but there's way too many abilities to cover them all - the conclusion is, most of them are underpowered and much less beneficial than simply making units. The only abilities that I came across and found useful is Dark Ritual for Demons and Mass Bloodlust for Orc, the rest could be a bit buffed in order to become more used (mostly price reduction; for example, it's really not too profitable to pay 6000 gold just to give some of my Mercenary units a few abilities until they die - maybe the ability could give back gold based on how many and what leveled units it affected <if it only affects one Apprentice, it would give most of the gold back; however, if the ability was used while numerous Mercenary Knights were on the battlefield, it would give no gold back - just a suggestion, but it would surely make the game much more enjoyable>).

Also, the upgrades are pretty much useless - incredibly expensive and giving very minor bonuses. Even in the super late game, it's much better to just continue making units, because you'd need a ridiculous amount of units for the upgrades to be even a bit noticable. I only used the defense upgrade for Doom Lord, since he's got hero armor and he's very tough, so he actually benefits from that noticably, but apart from that, not even once. I'd strongly suggest lowering upgrade prices, especially the damage ones, by at least 500 gold, or even better, adjusting the prices to each race individually. I know it takes a lot of time, but that way, the game becomes more balanced and interesting.

The map is enjoyable even in its current state, but if you took some to fix the issues I mentioned above, this map would turn into a very high quality Tug-of-War game.

Edit: You need to credit the authors of the resources not only in the loading screen, but in the map description as well. Credit in map description is actually more important. Please, don't forget about that.

Thank you a lot for that in depth analysis and playing the game,
you are mentioning some very good points about the balancing, i agree with a lot of special abilities feeling underpowered, i iterated a lot of them, but due to the large amount of races you can play it consumed a lot of time to actually test them properly.
And increasing the reward for killing the towers, could really decrease the hording problem. I usually found myself thinking, i just let the enemy destroy my two towers and wait till they reach my canon towers, then i send a massive army and crush them.

But as you said, some balancing fixed could really improve a lot.

I also like the idea to diversify the upgrades and make them race specific, i will think about that.

And yes i will add the credits, didn't know to much about releasing maps yet.
I read somewhere i can also use templates for the map description here and list the credits with even the link to the resources used?
EDIT: Just found out about "view resources in use", very useful

 

[Blasterixx]

Pretty interesting map, i really enjoyed playing it! reminds me of castle fight.
So from what i have seen the games are super short, now that might me a good thing or a bad thing depends of who is playing it, but in my opinion the game finishes too fast, i suggest having some sort of last resort like in castle fight they have that spell that kills everyone in an 1k aoe near their base, i think this will make the games a bit longer. Or just make the towers stronger, they die too fast.
Another thing is that the units cost a little to much in my opinion, they should cost a bit less, especially the weak units.

Oh and another thing that might spice up the games a bit would be something like a super powerfull hero/boss type unit that will cost like 10k gold, i think that will be a lot of fun!

And lastly i think the space between both bases need to be a bit bigger.
Good luck with the map! and keep up the good work!

 

[Jaybiooh]

Pretty interesting map, i really enjoyed playing it! reminds me of castle fight.
So from what i have seen the games are super short, now that might me a good thing or a bad thing depends of who is playing it, but in my opinion the game finishes too fast, i suggest having some sort of last resort like in castle fight they have that spell that kills everyone in an 1k aoe near their base, i think this will make the games a bit longer. Or just make the towers stronger, they die too fast.
Another thing is that the units cost a little to much in my opinion, they should cost a bit less, especially the weak units.

Oh and another thing that might spice up the games a bit would be something like a super powerfull hero/boss type unit that will cost like 10k gold, i think that will be a lot of fun!

And lastly i think the space between both bases need to be a bit bigger.
Good luck with the map! and keep up the good work!

Thank you very much for playing and the feedback, i think you made some very good points there.
Especially about having a chance to recover with that "kills everyone near base 1k aoe", i've seen that in other maps where it worked very well.
If it is limited to only 1 charge you have a good chance to recover in the beginning and in the late game your T5 units may even survive that aoe nuke.

Hm yes T1 units may be to weak, i thought that about the gnolls for example. Maybe because they are to fragile against aoe spells and attacks especially later on.

 

[Tanasren]

I played the 2.6 version to death but only in solo againt AI on Insane mode.

At start I couldn't beat it during 3 rounds. Then I found how to do it and I finally beat it with every race.
Then I beat it again with every race but against 2 AI on Insane mode.
Then I tried some weird strategies and still won.


Here are some thoughts:
- Orc race is completely imba, I never had any problem with it. I can win the game in one push with only raiders and grunts vs 2 AI insane. The dragon is also super strong (he doesn't benefit from the bloodlust though). Now you just updated it and it's even easier I bet. However the special that gives +1 bloodlust is a good spell but it's too powerful.
- Gnoll race is the hardest imo
- The big spell from the Murloc race (8k to heal all units) is not very useful, tbh it sux. And I don't know why it spawns 1 neutral crab, it's useless, not even funny, I don't get it.
- Undead race is boring to play and very easy too because of the zombies.
- Goblin race is really nice to play, I won with two complete different strategies (using Shredders as tanks or spamming small units)
- Same for the demon race, but I feel like when you push hard enough, if you spawn the demon portal, then it's gg. You can then spawn 3 other portals.
- Dwarf race is also boring to play because you don't have much choice since it costs a lot
- I think there aren't enough possibilities by races, but it's still a very interesting game
- I successfully won with using team upgrades, but it's hard. So I wonder if team upgrade's cost should be lowered and increase as the game goes on. Also you could add "increase range" for ranged units maybe.

- The second demon special is really useless, don't use it. The only real interest is when you have 3 demon portals etc but then you have already won.
- I don't know if the golem use any spell, it looks like he doesn't.
- Banshees possess peasants which is annoying. Also they are supposed to possess only when low on health in the description but it's completely random.
- Murlocs can net peasants and they are stuck there forever
- The dwarf armor special can target peasants, which is very annoying
- Gnoll's call to base special will bug peasants forever, so you lose gold
- Gnoll's call to base special doesn't seem to be really well used by the AI, it used it 3 times in a row and it was not very smart
- The night elf special which gives boot to units is cool but costs a lot (2k) and when your unit gets "boots" it's really annoying. Might remove boots
- The AI never buys team upgrades
- I saw you changed ground tower to be able to aim at air units, but I felt like it was part of the strategy, to send air units to the ground towers, it was quite nice. Otherwise the bat rider from troll race is completely useless, the worst unit in the game

- I have thought about an entire race if you want, a Furlborg race

 

[Jaybiooh]

I played the 2.6 version to death but only in solo againt AI on Insane mode.

At start I couldn't beat it during 3 rounds. Then I found how to do it and I finally beat it with every race.
Then I beat it again with every race but against 2 AI on Insane mode.
Then I tried some weird strategies and still won.


Here are some thoughts:
- Orc race is completely imba, I never had any problem with it. I can win the game in one push. Now you just updated it and it's even easier I bet. However the special that gives +1 bloodlust is a good spell but it's too powerful.

Sounds like you had some fun with it, i am glad to hear it.
I guess save 5-6 rounds with orcs, big army + spam bloodlust ability = instant win?

Do you have more feedback on some races, i am really curious. Especially about Murlocs and Undead as i find that they play a bit differently.

 

[Tanasren]

Oops, I just added this
"- I successfully won with using team upgrades, but it's hard. So I wonder if team upgrade's cost should be lowered and increase as the game goes on. Also you could add "increase range" for ranged units maybe.
- The night elf special which gives boot to units is cool but costs a lot (2k) and when your unit gets "boots" it's really annoying. Might remove boots"


Yes for orcs. When you units have lvl 5 bloodlust (or lvl 3) they hit very hard, and then you can even heal them 100hp (but now it's full hp lol crazy, you can basically use your gold to heal yourself then, buy 1 bloodlust and then full heal).
Btw when I won with raiders + grunts, I did not use ANY of the special, I bought two team upgrades and then I used grunts, raiders and shamans.


Murlocs, well it's a bit tricky end game, the only solution I found to win as murloc (alone at least) was to get enough hydras and forget the small units. Hydras are very tanky, and the big crabs are very tanky too, so big crabs + hydras are needed but it costs a lot of gold, so it's a long game. Otherwise towers + repair work very fine, you have to place the towers well.
Btw I suggest that you divide the tower special spell from the bubble spell that reduces damage from ranged attacks. Because if you want to protect your units, you will destroy your towers doing so.

Undead I played only once but it was really too easy. I didn't find it specially fun so I didn't retry with them. I spammed zombies and then ranged, then it was easy as a pie. I did not use banshees much.
Then when a lot of skeletons, I used the special but I was against murloc and they kept dispelling my skeletons lol. Nothing much to say.
I would expect the race to be based more on raising skeletons, with a special to create corpses for necromancers to spawn mobs or for units to eat the corpses.


And about Gnolls, the small units are useless after 10 min but in top of that, they don't use their "cowardice spell", I see like 1 gnoll doing it for 20 gnolls who died.

 

[Jaybiooh]

Oops, I just added this
"- I successfully won with using team upgrades, but it's hard. So I wonder if team upgrade's cost should be lowered and increase as the game goes on. Also you could add "increase range" for ranged units maybe.
- The night elf special which gives boot to units is cool but costs a lot (2k) and when your unit gets "boots" it's really annoying. Might remove boots"


Yes for orcs. When you units have lvl 5 bloodlust (or lvl 3) they hit very hard, and then you can even heal them 100hp (but now it's full hp lol crazy, you can basically use your gold to heal yourself then, buy 1 bloodlust and then full heal).
Btw when I won with raiders + grunts, I did not use ANY of the special, I bought two team upgrades and then I used grunts, raiders and shamans.


Murlocs, well it's a bit tricky end game, the only solution I found to win as murloc (alone at least) was to get enough hydras and forget the small units. Hydras are very tanky, and the big crabs are very tanky too, so big crabs + hydras are needed but it costs a lot of gold, so it's a long game. Otherwise towers + repair work very fine, you have to place the towers well.
Btw I suggest that you divide the tower special spell from the bubble spell that reduces damage from ranged attacks. Because if you want to protect your units, you will destroy your towers doing so.

Undead I played only once but it was really too easy. I didn't find it specially fun so I didn't retry with them. I spammed zombies and then ranged, then it was easy as a pie. I did not use banshees much.
Then when a lot of skeletons, I used the special but I was against murloc and they kept dispelling my skeletons lol. Nothing much to say.
I would expect the race to be based more on raising skeletons, with a special to create corpses for necromancers to spawn mobs or for units to eat the corpses.


And about Gnolls, the small units are useless after 10 min but in top of that, they don't use their "cowardice spell", I see like 1 gnoll doing it for 20 gnolls who died.

Thanks a lot for all that feedback, that was very interesting to read.

Some issues you mentioned have been addressed a bit in v2.8, Murloc bubble ability has been moved to the heal and is cheaper, tower spell costs less. Gnolls cheap units cost a bit less etc.
About undead, i guess i could give the zombie less hp, but hm maybe they need another unit not sure.

"they don't use their "cowardice spell", I see like 1 gnoll doing it for 20 gnolls who died."
If a gnoll dies it only checks how many units remain, if your army is outnumbered it triggers, but again is negated if only one tier 3 gnoll is nearby.

And good catch about all that peasant problems, never realized all the problems they cause, but now that you mention it i realize i have to implement them differently.

Yes i am very curious about your Furlborg race idea

BUT first i'm gonna pitch you some changes i am currently thinking about, because you played the map so much i guess you will have a opinion about that:

• I want to add race specific upgrades
• With 2.8 the wood resource is gone, sending units is limited via cooldowns
• With 2.9 i want to use the wood to give the player an upgrade decision.
• 1 Wood for reaching Mid-Game (4 Min) and 2 Wood for reaching Late-Game (8 Min)
• You can then spend the wood on the following
  • Upgrade Low Tier Units 1-3 by approximately ~30% strength
  • Upgrade Tier 4 Unit by approximately ~30% strength
  • Upgrade Tier 5 Unit by approximately ~30% strength
• The upgrades can be done two times, the first upgrade costs 1 wood, the second 2 wood, so the player can never upgrade everything and has to decide on what to upgrade.
• The upgrades either enhance damage, health or a units specific ability making it effectively 30% stronger
• The upgrades may vary between the races but generally increase damage for offense races, health for defense and both for diverse races.

 

[Tanasren]

I just read above someone who spammed shadow hunter as troll, I didn't do this strategy, I did two other strategies and it worked fine, I think it's one of the best race to play.
I tried with the melee unit, it requires to wait end game but it works very well.
I also tried with only ranged units and using team upgrades and it worked fine.

----------
Btw when I say I won vs 2 AI insane, it was 1 (me) vs 2 (AI insane). I wish there was a harder mode for solo players, if you can add some handicap or stuff like that. I couldn't set my unit HP to 70% in the lobby for example.
-----------
I am just testing 2.7 and saw the cost for upgrade greatly diminished from 5000 to 3800, gonna be easy
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About 2.8, I don't know about that cooldown thing, I was used to the wood one, I take your map as it is and try to beat it (to death ). If you think it will be more interesting then why not. I'm not sure I would have used the wood method in the first place but it forced me to make choices, especially when there was a big push on my ground towers, I almost always die (60% of the time).
----------
About the new upgrades in 2.9, it looks super fun. Though I wonder if it shouldn't be like 50% for tier 1, 40% tier2, 30% for tier 3, 20% tier 2, 10% tier 1 (just an example ofc).


PS: read my first answer, I had added a lot of thing before you answered

 

[Jaybiooh]

I just read above someone who spammed shadow hunter as troll, I didn't do this strategy, I did two other strategies and it worked fine, I think it's one of the best race to play.
I tried with the melee unit, it requires to wait end game but it works very well.
I also tried with only ranged units and using team upgrades and it worked fine.

----------
Btw when I say I won vs 2 AI insane, it was 1 (me) vs 2 (AI insane). I wish there was a harder mode for solo players, if you can add some handicap or stuff like that. I couldn't set my unit HP to 70% in the lobby for example.
-----------
I am just testing 2.7 and saw the cost for upgrade greatly diminished from 5000 to 3800, gonna be easy
-----------
About 2.8, I don't know about that cooldown thing, I was used to the wood one, I take your map as it is and try to beat it (to death ). If you think it will be more interesting then why not. I'm not sure I would have used the wood method in the first place but it forced me to make choices, especially when there was a big push on my ground towers, I almost always die (60% of the time).
----------
About the new upgrades in 2.9, it looks super fun. Though I wonder if it shouldn't be like 50% for tier 1, 40% tier2, 30% for tier 3, 20% tier 2, 10% tier 1 (just an example ofc).


PS: read my first answer, I had added a lot of thing before you answered

Yes i saw what you added, thanks again was all very interesting to read.

Pretty crazy that you could beat two insane alone, i sometimes have problems against normal ai, but i think when you play alone you have double the starting gold then the enemy, it gets halved when two people play in one team.

Not sure if 2.7 will offer you another challenge, but i guess i could add an hard mode or something, i have to think about it.

Hm yes maybe higher tiers should get less upgrade strength, had it like that at first.

 

[Tanasren]

I beat 1 vs 2 AI with all races (but gnoll but it just takes more time because you need to use well your special)
When you play alone you have 2500 gold while both AI have 1500. So I still thought that 1500 * 2 > 2500 + you also have your units on one lane and often the second AI attacks your tower until you have enough units to notice the other lane is being attacked so yes, it's harder vs 2 AI

I'm actually on 2.7 trying a night elf build with only tier 1-2-3 units because I usually never use the huntresses (too weak) but this time I base my whole strategy on them with the new lower upgrade cost
Update: I was winning but it crashed, first time it crashes on this map. I had tons of units, tons of archers an huntresses, they were all 5 upg melee and armor and I was giving them as many items as possible, I was going for a big push and it crashed. Here is "tempreplay" if you're curious

 

[Jaybiooh]

I beat 1 vs 2 AI with all races (but gnoll but it just takes more time because you need to use well your special)
When you play alone you have 2500 gold while both AI have 1500. So I still thought that 1500 * 2 > 2500 + you also have your units on one lane and often the second AI attacks your tower until you have enough units to notice the other lane is being attacked so yes, it's harder vs 2 AI

I'm actually on 2.7 trying a night elf build with only tier 1-2-3 units because I usually never use the huntresses (too weak) but this time I base my whole strategy on them with the new lower upgrade cost
Update: I was winning but it crashed, first time it crashes on this map. I had tons of units, tons of archers an huntresses, they were all 5 upg melee and armor and I was giving them as many items as possible, I was going for a big push and it crashed. Here is "tempreplay" if you're curious

Thanks for the replay, i will check

 

[Tanasren]

Btw I have the furlborg race idea set up, just waiting to see if you update the game before I spend time writing it

 

[Jaybiooh]

Nice, i am still curious. Hm but yeah i am actually releasing a pretty big update soon, took some time because of a lot of testing and bug fixing of new features.

 

[dhungsttt]

Really hard to master.
But i often have w3x.exe bug error and auto be exited right now, is this due to your map ?

 

[Jaybiooh]

I never had that error before, but i can only play so many games to test for crashes.
If you have another crash please report what races were played, that could be helpful