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Problem Classical Era Map

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I'm unsure on what geographical area and historical period my map should be based on.

I started the terrain with the already made map "Greece" as a target, I'm not good in finishing a projects so I figured - lets not try to redesign everything. But as the progress on the basic terrain got more and more completed the eastern part feels lacking, its barely touched its not that, but there is barely any land to include the Persian Empire. So the question then becomes: Keep it as it is, with a small Persian Empire or Remake it?

Other possibilities are to jump a few centuries forward and have the Seleucid Kingdom, Rome, Carthage, Ptolemaic Kingdom, Hellenic League and maybe others. But I feel that the map would be too unfocused. I mean where is the main contested area in such a map? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_map_220BC.PNG

Yet another option is to only focus on the Greek mainlan or Greece + Itality + Sicily and maybe Carthage.

Any ideas?

Also something to keep in mind is that the units have to be sustained with food so that might or might not be an issue depending on the map.
 

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Depends on which period you plan on. If you want everything that's happened in the Mediterranean since Troy caught fire, you're going to need a bigger map.

I've given it further though and come up with an idea which narrows it down to Greek Mythology, so no Romans, Carthaginians or any of that sorts.

As it stands right now there are NO factions, as I've not come up with a good enough solution for it. So for now it a sandbox game, where you get to chose starting location. However, there will be unique heroes. The current list is:

1) Achilles
2) Heracles
3) Theseus
4) Perseus
5) Jason
6) Odysseus
7) Hector
8) Ajax
9) Atalanta
10) Asclepius
11) Orion
12) Penthesilea

The idea is that a player can construct a Altar of Heroes from which he can chose to worship one of the above heroes. If the Altar dies the Hero leaves, if the hero dies another player can "steal" chose to worship the hero you previously had. The hero don't lose any experience when another player takes control. You can also "send home" the hero, allowing you to worship another.

Another idea is that the heroes will have different requirements. Ex: Have a temple dedicated to X or build 5 barracks, stuff like that.

There is also a option to changing the above concept from heroes to gods, making it more time-line friendly. Maybe that is a better option or both, meaning you can recruit a hero and at a temple you can Summon a god, the god an only be summoned by one player at a time for a certain period.
 
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A simple enough solution: city-states, every city is its own faction. Possibly limiting the heroes/gods depending on where you are (i.e. Athens chooses between Poseidon and Athena).

Neutral monsters too, with some heroes getting bonuses against the monsters they fought against (Jason vs harpies, Odysseus vs sirens and cyclopes, Theseus vs minotaurs, Heracles vs... maybe just one at a time in his case).
 
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Gonna post here again. Imagine Sparta to the right has enslaved poor Messene. How should the food produced there be transported to Sparta in a sensible?
1) How shall food be distributed across ones empire, more importantly how shall it supply ones front lines effectively. (Land and Water)

(Export surplus to X? Spawn horsie, and move it there?) Is that even viable if there are many cities? Or maybe just mechanically distribute surplus to connected cities? For example Messene would be connected to Sparta, Pylos and Megalopolis. If it builds a harbor it can reach all cities with a harbor. The system would have the option to Increase the cities import priority. And The food would be sent around to where demand was needed. Trouble would be how to send between multiple cities. I mean, its easy to check each city and move food to nearby cities, a lot harder to check if a city has a way to supply a city across the other side of the map with food. Maybe I'm making it more complicated then it is...

2) How are workers (slaves) gained? They will be required to man farms and other buildings.

I was thinking each player would have a internal slave market. If they capture cities the cost goes down. They can also export/import slaves if they have a harbor. When capturing a city you can chose to "enslave" it. It will basically produce very little tax but istead provide steady influx of slaves to your market. However, periodically Disgruntled slaves will be spawned and start attacking the city. If they do X damage the instigator will have succeeded in starting a revolt and a slave army will be spawned there.

3) What will happen if you destroy a enemy granary/farm, how should raiding work?

Bonus question:
4) Shall you be able to develop your cities in other then militaristic terms? Temples, Gymnasiums, Philosophers, wine in the market etc? And should this then be translated to a happyness bonus, so you can tax it higher (like crusaders)?
 

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Supply lines: Give cities the ability to automate sending food via land caravans or sending them to a port, with the port sending out ships to other cities.

Raiding: Have a Supply Wagon that can't attack and moves slowly, but put it next to a granary/storehouse and it will drain it of resources (simply destroying the building gets you a fraction of the ressources but goes much faster). For slaves, have a Slaver unit.

Having cities grow is a good idea.
 
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Supply lines: Give cities the ability to automate sending food via land caravans or sending them to a port, with the port sending out ships to other cities.

Raiding: Have a Supply Wagon that can't attack and moves slowly, but put it next to a granary/storehouse and it will drain it of resources (simply destroying the building gets you a fraction of the ressources but goes much faster). For slaves, have a Slaver unit.

Having cities grow is a good idea.

Ok. I was thinking maybe 1 export destination per city and a increase/decrease export. Might add two options aswell: Export Surplus and Empty Granary. After all, how many supply lines will a player need?
 
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Think I'll actually just be using the units as control.

Supply Ship
Supply Caravan

Abilities:
Home City: Sets the Carvans home, it will go here after dropping of its goods.
Destination: After picking up goods it will be ordered here automatically.
Clear Supply Route - Removes the above stored data.
Supply City - A spell You can use to set your own one-shot destination, also a spell that the trigger will be using to send the caravan.

The caravan will also have replenish mana ability, so units can actually eat the supplies, so in theory you can just ignore the above commands and group a bunch of horses and move them around.

What say you?
 
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I've now made a workable supply transportation and food production system for the game as well as having a automatic feed ability. Now...
I Need some suggestions what should happen on starvation. Should they lose hp, armor, dmg what - how should it work?

Also some ideas about how tier could work relating to managing a city, the only reason to improve your city is to get higher quality citizenry, the higher quality the better the soldiers you can recruit. Otherwise you'll have to stick to a rabble army. ^^ There can be up to 6 different classes (item slots) rabble being the lowest which every town can produce and nobles being the highest, these are required for cavalry.

So how do you Upgrade a City? Good question... Village > Town > City, you need a market to import higher end goods (increases the running costs) but in turn you can build more houses. For example at t1 you can only build say 3 houses. A set amount of these houses will be higher quality and the ratio of higher quality houses will increase as well as the number of houses you can build as you upgrade your city. (Now I can use fingolfins stockpile!)

A problem with above idea is that they are a) complicated to design and b) maybe not worth the effort, as it makes the game more difficult.

On your concept Dr. perhaps the resource should be European subsidies? :D
 
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Dr Super Good

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How so, taxing on the system or hard for the user to understand?
Actually using them. For example having your unit die because they are too useless to stock up on food without you keeping eye on them. Having your units die mid battle because they ran out of food. Being attack just in-between feeding cycles of units so you run out even though you feed your army well. Building more then enough food source but running out due to game qwirks etc.

These plagued many German RTS/Simulation games such as Knights and Merchants and Cultures (or was it called something else).
 
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Starvation ideas: get severely lowered stats in everything (speed, attack, armor) and lose health; rebel and become neutral hostile; refuse to fight; defect to the closest enemy food source if you don't tell them to attack it; cannibalize each other.

Thats brilliant, with events related to starvation. Perhaps if enough units in a cluster are marked as starving they will defect or rebel.

Should only starving units rebel/defect or mostly low quality troops, where as higher tier troops are more loyal?
Secondly, should units that are not starving be effected by this event?
Thirdly how should the dissatisfaction be shown to the player, so that he actually know he is on the brink of disaster? :p
Does heroes/kings/gods prevent desertion?

Another option would be to add disease which will start weakening otherwise healthy units as well. Was thinking that the desease would spread but on a limited number.

First wave: The source of the desease, can spread to 4 units.
Second wave: Can spread to 2 units.
Third wave: Can spread to 1 unit.
Forth wave: Doesn't spread.
Chanse of death 50% or higher depending on how close you are to the source in mentioned hierarchy.

The most difficult question would be how to decide the frequency of these two events.

I have two temple Blessings:
1) Increase Farm Output in that city (Demeter)
2) Decrease Hunger from units in the area, or the more imbalanced version: decrease mana-regen from units trained in that city or make the unit immune to disease. (Apollo perhaps?)

- There will be 11 temples, Zeus won't be having a temple as he is the God of gods. :p
- Not sure if I should limit it to 1 temple per city or 1 temple per tier (max 3).

Autofeeding trigger completed aswell as the basics of the hunger trigger, without events.

I hope this trigger wont be too taxing as it will be running often. A option Im thinking about is to only check the mana in this trigger and in another loop through the actual starving units.

JASS:
/* Notes

    Need to reset starvation Level on deindex event
    
    There needs to be a cap on starvation level

*/

scope HungerEffects initializer Init
    globals
        constant integer HUNGRY_UNIT = 'A00N'
        constant integer STARVING_SPELL_BOOK = 'A00M'
        constant real FREQUENCY = 12
        private integer pNum = 0
        private group tempGroup = CreateGroup()
        private integer array starvationLevel 
    endglobals
    
    private function HungryFilter takes nothing returns boolean
        return GetUnitAbilityLevel(GetFilterUnit(), HUNGRY_UNIT) > 0 
    endfunction
    
    private function OnTimerEnd takes nothing returns nothing
        local unit u
        local integer i
        call GroupEnumUnitsOfPlayer(tempGroup, Player(pNum), function HungryFilter)
        loop
            set u = FirstOfGroup(tempGroup)
            exitwhen u == null
            call GroupRemoveUnit(tempGroup, u)
            set i = GetUnitUserData(u)
            if GetUnitState(u, UNIT_STATE_MANA) == 0 then  
                set starvationLevel[i] = starvationLevel[i] + 1
                if starvationLevel[i] == 1 then
                    call UnitAddAbility(u, STARVING_SPELL_BOOK)
                else 
                    // Increase Level of spells in spellbook (auras that debuff the unit)
                endif   
            elseif starvationLevel[i] > 0 then
                set starvationLevel[i] = 0
                call UnitRemoveAbility(u, STARVING_SPELL_BOOK)
            endif
            // if starvationLevel[i] > 6
                //GetRandomInt... Start disease
            // Do Events based on level above
        endloop
        if pNum < 11 then
            set pNum = pNum + 1 
        else 
            set pNum = 0 
        endif
    endfunction

    private function Init takes nothing returns nothing
        local timer t = CreateTimer()
        call TimerStart(t, FREQUENCY/12, true, function OnTimerEnd)
        set t = null    
    endfunction
endscope
 
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Dissatisfaction should be the same for all, it'll get too complicated otherwise.

Nearby units have slightly higher chance of desertion (and extra damage against neutrals).

Warning: Have a message about hungry troops as if they were under attack.

Hero/god desertion prevention: sounds good, though maybe you should see that every hero/god has such a passive ability (i.e., Athena prevents desertion, Poseidon gets cheaper horses, Ares gets a damage bonus...).

Perhaps Persephone as the other harvest goddess.

If Zeus isn't available to anyone, maybe make him a neutral force? For example, if a player manages to appease several gods, Zeus grants that player a blessing.
 
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I have an idea based of Pharaoh, where your standing among the gods is dynamic. A example:

The more ships you build Posidon will demand more temples dedicated to him. If you don't meet his demand he will curse you. Destroy random ships, harbors, stop trade, or even release the Kraken.

Reversely, if you build more temples then he desires you will start to passively gain points which can be used to to use various spells.

When you select a temple a multiboard will show your current standing or a progress-bar will be created on the temple.

Not sure exactly if the above concept is solid. How would it be balanced? Can two players summon Talos at the same time, can you use different gods blessing at the same time? Could a player summon all OP-blessings at once at thus totally owning the other player. etc. Also itwould require a lot of ideas for all the gods. And it's especially hard as I haven't yet made a decision if to make more resources-types and if/how cities should develop.

Curses:
Apollo
- Instantly Starve X amount of units and all units trained during the next turn.
- Make 1 unit sick, this unit can then risk spreading the disease.
Demeter
- Halt Farm production 1-2 turns.
- Destroy all farms in your highest producing city.
Hermes
- Give a slow buff to X-units and all units trained during the next turn.
Hephaestus
- A building will catch on fire.
- Talos will attack your city for one turn.
Poseidon:
- Destroy all your harbors.
- Attack a city with the Kraken.
- Remove movement speed from all ships for the next turn.
- Prevent training of ships for 1-2 turns.
Athena
- All your buildings armor will be reduced to 0 for one turn.
Ares
- Prevent training of units for the next turn.

Blessings and Spells:
Apollo
- True Sight, reveal a area.
- Cure disease (AOE)
Demeter
- Supply City - targeted city will receive full mana.
Hermes:
- Scroll of Speed

Can't be bothered to complete the list right now (sorry). Will update it later.

oh, before I forget. Zeus could be a debuff god, say your enemy has summoned Talos, well then Zeus can dispell that beast.
 
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Ah, good, you played it too. In that case, have each curse/blessing tied to the presence of buildings (Altars/Oracles in the Temple Complexes).

Kraken: Bad idea, especially when Greek mythology has no shortage of hideous aquatic monsters (Echidna, Scylla, Charybdis, hydra...)

As for heroes, it should basically be first come first served, with the hero unavailable until he dies.

God ideas (basically opposite buffs/debuffs that are applied to your units/the enemy if the god is happy or angry):

Hermes could also have curses like not being warned about events or spawning thieves.

Ares: Speed bonuses if if given an "Attack" command.
Deimos and Phobos: Makes units run away from the target point or stuns groups.
Eris: Half the units in area become neutral hostile.


Hephaestus: Provides armor and attack buffs/debuffs, volcanic eruptions.
Brontes/Steropes/Arges: Gives Orb of Lightning ability to selected units.
Talos: Summons an amphibious Talos with Hurl Boulder and Immolation, and a small chance of being instantly killed.

Apollo: Turns female units into trees.
Asclepios: Dispels diseases.

Artemis: Increases range, decreases accuracy, turns units into stags. Curses don't work on female units.
Atalanta: Bonuses to archery and hunting units.
Orion: Summons Orion with ensnare and True Sight, also spawns a neutral scorpion on the map, both die when the other is killed.

Aphrodite: Gives female units Charm.
Eros: Target hero is stunned.
Harmonia: Casts Spirit Link on units in an area.

Nike: Increases chance of positive events happening (combat, blessings/curses, ).

Hera: Increases population growth. Should probably do something negative to Zeus-sired heroes.

Hades: Increases production of mines, can prevent necromancers from working.

Morpheus: Casts Sleep on units in area.

Pan: Casts Drunken Haze on units in area.


Here's an idea: Have a Tartarus area where the legendary punishments take place. If your army frees one, they get a related bonus for a while which then resets (Tantalus: starves enemy, Sysyphus: throws huge boulders, Ixion: gives (fire) lightning shield to all units in an area, Prometheus: All units get the Orb of Fire ability). Alternatively, the cursed have timed life and ethereal and spread their curse around them, so Tantalus causes units to starve by being around them, Sysyphus is continuously targeted by AoE boulders (so should be positioned next to the enemy), Ixion is always on fire, Prometheus is constantly hunted by eagles, etc.
 
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Here's an idea: Have a Tartarus area where the legendary punishments take place. If your army frees one, they get a related bonus for a while which then resets (Tantalus: starves enemy, Sysyphus: throws huge boulders, Ixion: gives (fire) lightning shield to all units in an area, Prometheus: All units get the Orb of Fire ability). Alternatively, the cursed have timed life and ethereal and spread their curse around them, so Tantalus causes units to starve by being around them, Sysyphus is continuously targeted by AoE boulders (so should be positioned next to the enemy), Ixion is always on fire, Prometheus is constantly hunted by eagles, etc.

How do you enter Hades a place only a few heroes could enter, also where exactly is is situated and how to you venture to the deepest place (tartarus), as low as the sky is high with an army? :p

As for your hero abilities, good suggestions but the amount of gods are too many, I have to sack some of them. For example Asclepios feels like he is a lesser god under Apollo, even killed by Zeus at some point. Having a temple to him seems wasteful, who has even heard of him? However, giving Apollo the ability to heal, revive or what have you, I feel is the better choice.

The reason for that is both I rather have few Gods with more options then many gods with less, but also I'm only 1 person need to start by making maybe 3-5 temples and see how it works, and designing their spells in conjunction with the other systems will be a time requiring task. The goal is to make about 8 to 12 temples at some point.

Female units, there is currently no destinguishable factions (everything is in sandbox you can have all temples etc), especially not any amazons, although I might place some neutral hostile amazons somewhere.

I suppose more Gods could be made if I went it the direction of more distinguished factions, like maps such as Second Age, Bfme, Daow, etc. where every faction is unique - but that is well - maybe too much for me to plan.

What I could include are items such as the golden fleece, Hades cloack of invisibility and some monsters but the game is still about conquering the map not questing for items. hmm.
 
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Not an entire building, a cheap add-on (the way the Altars and Oracles work in Pharaoh), or maybe make it a research.

As for Tartarus, you could make it a separate part of the map accessed via cave (Way Gate). And that part could start with elevated terrain and end up very low, the whole thing filled with neutral monsters for creeping.
 
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Not an entire building, a cheap add-on (the way the Altars and Oracles work in Pharaoh), or maybe make it a research.

As for Tartarus, you could make it a separate part of the map accessed via cave (Way Gate). And that part could start with elevated terrain and end up very low, the whole thing filled with neutral monsters for creeping.

Not sure what you mean with a cheap add-on, the current plan is that you build a temple and then upgrade it into the hero you want to worship. I've made my first spell: AOE-Hex. Can't yet turn units to immobile trees, working on that however stags and boars are fine. ^^

Not sure if I see any big value in creeping the underworld, tbh - perhaps in a special mode with a whole set of different victory conditions. (Do all the famous quests). In this mode it would be a race to complete quests rather then conquering your enemies.
 
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It'd go like this: You build the temple and buy the "Worship Ares as patron god" upgrade. Once the building is upgraded, there are new researches: Phobos and Eris. Researching Phobos creates a little altar to him next to the Temple, and the Temple can now cast the "makes units run" spell as long as his building is alive. Researching Eris makes the "turn units neutral hostile" spell available at the Temple as long as her altar is alive.
 
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I've got an idea for phalanx fighting. A hoplie can turn on phalanx mode, the unit will lose 80% movement speed and have redicolously slow turnrate, 0.01-0.05 or so, meaning it can basically only walk forward. (it will morph between the two modes, and have a casting time delay so think carefully before using.)
It will take extra damage from the sides but in return do bonus damage to the front. Not sure if this last part is even necessary for the flanking effect to be there.

As for unit-tech-tree I'm at a loss. I'm weighing between three options:

1) Unrestricted unit training, once you teched enough at any city you can train what ever you want from any barracks (normal wc3). Will allow more flexibility for the player to how he attacks, and also make it easier to understand.

2) Restricted in so far that the barracks can only train units that are available to that particular city's tech level. Drawbacks are that it will be more static even though when you capture a city you take over all buildings in that city.

3.1.) Same as #2 but with the added feature that you also need recruits(either a global resource or a local resource, not sure) in order to train units. Recruits are created through houses as a separate resource.

3.2.) Same as 3.1. but even more complex, the houses can be upgraded or are upgraded when the city is upgraded and different city-tier allows for a different quotas of quality recruits. For example, to train higher quality cavalary and infantry you need nobels otherwise you are restricted to training rabble, milita, slingers and such units.

The same concept could be applied to upgrades. Are they city bound or global, meaning if you research melee attack in one city, will units trained form another be effected?
 
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Well, in terms of balance between realism and gameplay, you should always lean towards gameplay. So while I think it'd be more interesting if you chose something other than the standard wc3 techtree, you shouldn't hesitate to stick to that if it interferes with the rest of the map in terms of size, implementing etc.

Personally I think the second option makes sense, with the city's unique units being tied to control of that city's capitol. Having recruits as a ressource, while interesting, would make it a lot more taxing on the system (do you plan on using a leaderboard for resources?).
 
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Personally I think the second option makes sense, with the city's unique units being tied to control of that city's capitol. Having recruits as a ressource, while interesting, would make it a lot more taxing on the system (do you plan on using a leaderboard for resources?).

I haven't yet decided on the resources of the game I'm still balancing between the simple version articulated above as 2 or more complex city planning. If its to be more complex multiboards would be required. But it all hangs on how cities are gonna develop.

Currently I'm favoring having it just be upgradeable based on conditions such as:
tier 2: 3 houses, barracks, granary market, temple
tier 3: 5 houses, barrack, granary, market, temple, temple, (academy/blacksmith or what not).
If the above buildings are destroyed the city maybe lose population and return to the previous tier eventually.

As for goods, markets and housing it feels unnecessary, now that I've given it some more though. I mean, sure it would be intresting to import goods to a city to upgrade the houses and in turn upgrade the city, but it is at the same time pointless complexity, adding very little to the game. Managing an army is a entirely separate from managing a city, and as these concept wouldn't merge very well together. But I'm not sure...

Another point which is moving me away from a complex resource based game is the fact that choosing temples, and heroes will be a task out of itself for a player and adding more (clutter) on top of that might be a bad thing.

*Edit: I think the best way to "develop" cities will be a RTW style where some buildings increase population growth and capacity, if those structures dies your capacity is decreased and your population will begin to decline. After a certain threshold your city is "demoted".

Example:
- Market increase growth
- Harbor increase growth
- Recruiting cost population (maybe barracks should decrease growth?)
- Food production increase growth and capacity
- Housing increases capacity.
- Capturing decreases population and the population will decrease over time for a period.
 
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You should have a way to artificially increase population, say via ordering part of a healthy city's population to emigrate to a newly-conquered one.

That depends on how well I can create the population system. Not sure I will get the required flexibility for that to work out. Currently I'm in the process of remaking the building system to include City tiers and have the requirements work take that into account, after that I'll add "dynamic barracks" meaning the unit pool available will depend on the city tier. Then after that I'll either start to work on population elements or "Dynamic blacksmiths".

A easy method would be by sticking to RTW having decimation and enslavement as options when you conquer a city. It would work giving a captured city three abilities to chose from before it comes online:

Civilize (?) - No loot, no slaves.
Enslave - You can select a target location for your slaves, or they are uploaded to your global slave market and slaves can be imported through the market to boost a cities population (slave population and normal population would be separate).
Decimate - Slaughters the population.

There could be a additional option, and that would be to raise the city to the ground and only leaving rubble there. Of course there would be an option to rebuild it.

If slaves are to be included they could be a resource required for buildings such as: Harbor, market, granary, farm, etc. Or.. They don't have to be a resource just something you can import to increase a city's income.

If the option of resettling is to be in the game, there must be something that limiting the capacity. Either a building or upgrades.

Or none of the above. ;P
 
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Raze the city to the ground. Raising it would be what you do to get it back up.

What do you mean by dynamic blacksmiths?

Ah razing it. ;)

Upgrading in one city effects only the units trained from that city after the research is completed.

Will also work on a retraining ability otherwise the above would be kind of annoying. Basically units that are not fully upgraded will have the ability to be retrained by casting a ability on a barrack. I'm thinking this will also work for their health.

One issue right now is that training units with upgrades doesn't increase the cost so retraining a unit is "free" which might be bad.

And in addition I will make it so 1 trained unit will spawn a group of units instead of 1 to move away from "train-spam-wars" :p (Kudos to Fingolfins map World Domination).


Tier 1:
SlavesPeltast Squad

Tier 2
SlavesPeltast SquadHoplite Squadslingers

Tier 3
SlavesPeltast SquadHoplite SquadslingersArmored Hoplite SquadArchers


Slaves:
5 units trainedUnarmored, Has fire attack, can ignite buildings

Peltast Squad:
5 units spawned (3 ranged, 2 melee)Unarmored/Light armored

Hoplite Squad:
5 units spawnedLight armored

Armored Hoplite Squad:
4 units spawned and a captainHeavy Armored

Other units:
Ballista
Catapult
(Captain)
(Genral)
Elite Hoplite/Fanatic Hoplite/Sacred Hoplite - Requires a temple of Ares
Elite Archer/Sacred Archer - Requires a temple of Artemis or Apollo

Also if you can come up with elite temple units and names that would be great. ;)

Completed local-tech tree to include tiers.
Completed local barracks tech-tree

No idea how to make the Dynamic Upgrades yet. It would be easy to make units trained after the upgrade is completed be upgraded. However, to allow "retraining" of unupgraded units is what I can't figure out.
 
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