Patch 1.1 (unreleased)

[mrzwach]

Just recently announced on the SC2 site.

This is going to be the first patch with features and balance changes, so yay!

A few key notes from the article:

We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds.

we have decided to increase the build time of reapers as well from 40 to 45 seconds.

so we are also increasing the bunker build time from 30 to 35 seconds.

we're changing the Siege Mode damage of the siege tank from 50 to 35, +15 vs. armored

We will be lowering their [Battlecruisers] damage against ground units from 10 to 8.

Ultralisk damage is being decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored.

Battlecruiser damage nerf is interesting, didn't see that one coming.


Also, since most of you probably don't care much about melee anyways, you should be excited to know that Patch 1.1 will be containing various other awesome things for modders.

Patch 1.1 will contain a number of improvements including additional mod features, Editor improvements and bug fixes, some custom game improvements, support for NVIDIA’s 3D Vision, and more.

Patch 1.1 will supposedly come out in mid-September ish. Going to be interesting.


On a side note, chat channels will be coming sometime after Patch 1.1,

We have mid- to long-term plans to further evolve the Custom Game experience, and soon, enhance our social features with the addition of chat channels

Read about it here.

 

[PurplePoot]

Siege tank nerf is a bit overkill. They are now weaker and more expensive than in BW against units which on average are tougher.

 

[Mooglefrooglian]

nVidia 3d vision, woo!

Gotta love these features a very very small percentage of the market is going to use. Does it remind no one else of a certain something that people whined about?

Meanwhile, no clans.

This concludes my whining.

BC nerf, ultralisk nerf seem random and sad.

Rest is good and I approve. Maybe 6 pooling will be much more viable? I'll be sure to test that.

 

[Darkness-4ever]

And here I thought the siege tank was getting weak enough, at this point its probably better to leave it unsieged if thats whats going down in this new patch.

 

[PurplePoot]

nVidia 3d vision, woo!

Gotta love these features a very very small percentage of the market is going to use. Does it remind no one else of a certain something that people whined about?

Meanwhile, no clans.

This concludes my whining.

BC nerf, ultralisk nerf seem random and sad.

Rest is good and I approve. Maybe 6 pooling will be much more viable? I'll be sure to test that.

Ultralisk nerf seems random?

Do you, like, play XvZ? Or watch it? Or notice that the Ultralisk has the highest DPS of any unit or spell in the game (higher than psi storm!) considering its splash, and is the most life-efficient unit in the game, and is immune to forcefield, stuns, slows, and mind control? I feel like an AoE nerf would be more relevant than a damage nerf though.

Also, keep in mind that units are more life-efficient than in BW (in general), and siege tanks now are strictly worse than in BW while in siege mode (cost more gas, cost more supply, deal less damage to armoured, deal less damage to "medium" (ie psionic), deal same damage to light).

 

[Rispetto]

Though all your statistics may be true, 4-5 siege tanks can f---ck up a lot of s--t. Terran turtles can get real ugly if you're strictly ground units, and don't have any medis.

Basically: I think this is good.

 

[Diablo-dk]

Awesome changes. The reaper nerf will hopefully shut down the 5 rax reaper openings, and Hydralisks might make a comeback in TvZ now that tanks don't 2 shot them.

The zealot nerf also seems justified. A lot of top-tier players were complaining that 2-gate early pressure was too powerfull, and this change should also make 4-gate all-ins slightly weaker. I'm a little worried about whether it will make them too vulnerable to zerg early game, but i don't think it's very likely.

Ultralisk change is cool aswell. I'm not sure whether i would say they've been buffed or nerfed. the -5 damage to armored will just make them eat through stuff a little slower. The removal of the head-butt attack on buildings however, is a pretty significant buff. Now that they deal splash damage when attacking buildings, it will be a lot easier to break planetary fortresses surrounded by scvs, since they'll also be damaging the scvs when attacing the fortress.

Also, keep in mind that units are more life-efficient than in BW (in general), and siege tanks now are strictly worse than in BW while in siege mode (cost more gas, cost more supply, deal less damage to armoured, deal less damage to "medium" (ie psionic), deal same damage to light).

It is true that their damage is worse and cost higher, but their AI is miles better than it was in broodwar. If an army comes marching towards 8 tanks in BW, all the tanks would shoot at the units in the front, essentially wasting a lot of shots. In SC2 the tanks don't shoot synchronized, so they would spread all their shots out evenly instead of them all wasting their shots on a single zergling. Also, the siege tanks in SC2 have a faster attack rate.

I'm sure tanks will stay viable. The only real difference will be that hydralisks won't melt to tanks as much, and chargelots will start posing a threat to tanks. This might make terrans mix in more hellions, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[PurplePoot]

Though all your statistics may be true, 4-5 siege tanks can f---ck up a lot of s--t. Terran turtles can get real ugly if you're strictly ground units, and don't have any medis.

Basically: I think this is good.

So basically Siege Tanks are overpowered if you don't try to counter them?

Awesome changes. The reaper nerf will hopefully shut down the 5 rax reaper openings, and Hydralisks might make a comeback in TvZ now that tanks don't 2 shot them.

5rax reaper needs a nerf, but it should be a viable opening. After all, it's the only viable use of Reapers these days. As for hydralisks, they're already used against Ultralisks (late game) or Roaches (against bio or Hellion/Thor).

The zealot nerf also seems justified. A lot of top-tier players were complaining that 2-gate early pressure was too powerfull, and this change should also make 4-gate all-ins slightly weaker. I'm a little worried about whether it will make them too vulnerable to zerg early game, but i don't think it's very likely.

People are acting as if it will be the end of the world if a 6pool kills one probe on a small map and forgetting that the Zerg has to cut around 8 drones.

It is true that their damage is worse and cost higher, but their AI is miles better than it was in broodwar. If an army comes marching towards 8 tanks in BW, all the tanks would shoot at the units in the front, essentially wasting a lot of shots. In SC2 the tanks don't shoot synchronized, so they would spread all their shots out evenly instead of them all wasting their shots on a single zergling. Also, the siege tanks in SC2 have a faster attack rate.

Every SC2 unit has better targeting; this is not unique to tanks.

I'm sure tanks will stay viable. The only real difference will be that hydralisks won't melt to tanks as much, and chargelots will start posing a threat to tanks. This might make terrans mix in more hellions, which isn't a bad thing.

Chargelots do pose a threat to tanks (this change only makes tanks need one more hit anyways), and Hydralisks are viable (vs tank-light builds; Terran don't have infinite gas, you know). I'm sure that Tanks will stay viable, but I fear that they might be getting pushed into a more niche role. They already got reduced from 60 to 50 to deal with their interaction with light units and totally ignored the effect this had against armoured units, and now even though they are nerfing their vs light again they aren't even giving back that 10 against armoured. We'll have to see how it plays out, but I think they are overreacting.

--

Anyhow, more importantly, that battlecruiser nerf was just a big "what?", and even the traditionally whiny Protoss and Zerg players over on Reddit seem to agree (that's not to say that they are all whiny, but that the ones that are whiny agree).

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I sincerely dont give a slight shit over these balances. In fact, I dont care what they do with this game, I was clear what was needed. I won't comment changes/issues in forums anymore. End of transmission.

 

[Rispetto]

So basically Siege Tanks are overpowered if you don't try to counter them?

Yup. They can overpower you, and if they have a higher ground with a blocked off access way (such as a choke) then there is no way in hell your ground units stand a chance against them (turtle).

As for BC nerfs? Pfft, IMO they sucked ass anyways. They cost too much money and take too long to create. Toss have photon boost, terrans have.. what.. mass starports?

Anyways.. 10v10 BC vs Carrier, Carrier wins.

 

[BoneBreaker]

Yup. They can overpower you, and if they have a higher ground with a blocked off access way (such as a choke) then there is no way in hell your ground units stand a chance against them.

Let me guess, you don't get vikings?

 

[Rispetto]

Let me guess, you don't get vikings?

If I do, they're generally too busy to waste time with tanks -.-

 

[PurplePoot]

Uh, Battlecruisers smash Carriers like nobody's business, not sure what you're talking about.

As for someone who is turtling, have you ever heard of air units? Or mass expanding? You don't even need to be cost efficient against a turtle when you are on 5-10x the bases.

 

[Rispetto]

Well obviously there are counters to basing, I never said there were.
What I meant was early game turtling (an area past a second expo, not the choke) can lead to success often in ?vT matches, considering the only units able to be easily mass produced by the time you need to make a strike (ignoring a rush) are ground units.

Also, BCvsCarrier..? Nah. I was in a match the other day, 2/2 upgrades vs 1/1 carriers.. he had a mothership. Yomato the mothership down and use the rest on carriers, BCs still lost. I think it was like .. 4-5 carriers vs my 5-6 BCs + their mothership? Pretty evenly balanced fight. The mothership died pretty fast.

 

[PurplePoot]

Well I don't know what you were doing to lose that fight, but I have some bad news for you (also, his force was significantly more expensive than yours).

As for turtling, uh, how are you supposed to turtle past your natural? Maybe on steppes where you can take your third, but even so they can take an extra four bases if you do (and steppes is pretty broken anyways). I really don't understand how you are having an issue with this.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Remember that someone who turtles can not win the game. They will have to attack you at some stage in order to win. Thus all you need to do is make sure you have an army capable of killing theirs so when they do come at you, they get well and truely messed.

If you have extra resources, you can try to raid them to keep them on their toes. But what ever you do, do not let your army fall to such a size they can just come and bulldoze you.

 

[Anti_Bodies]

Seeing how apparently Ultralisk's need nerf, I'm going to incorporate them in my stratagy ASAP before 1.1 comes out.

 

[thisruoy]

They are getting a nerf because the other races are getting nerfs, so it stays "balanced"

 

[PurplePoot]

No, they are getting a nerf because they are overpowered.

 

[Ghost765]

They are getting a nerf because the other races are getting nerfs, so it stays "balanced"

zealots is the mainstay unit of the protoss, and the siege tanks is a unit you almost always see when playing against terran. the ultralisk, not so much.

 

[Anti_Bodies]

In my 50+ games bouncing aroung gold/platinum divisions, I can't recall a time when I saw a Zerg player taking advantage of Ultralisk. Like someone said earlier, its a bit random.

 

[PurplePoot]

Except for the fact that just because you don't see them in gold doesn't mean they aren't rigged.

 

[Anti_Bodies]

Except for the fact that just because you don't see them in gold doesn't mean they aren't rigged.

I never said that though maybe accidentally implied that. My point was in gold AND platinum I don't usually see armies of them. Thats it.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

to be honest a terran who makes tanks and marines vs zerg ant turtles is hard as hell. Because mutas will die to marines, baneligns will die to tanks. its possible to win with masses of zergligns and banelings, but it as hell is not cost effective.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I said I wouldnt mess in such discussions anymore but just a note:

SC1 Terran was based lots on playing with siege tanks. This was the primary unit that went with almost, if not everything.

In SC2 Tanks are not much used vs Protoss, although some may happen to make it, it's just meatball vs toss. vs Zerg, mechs were done but still, I saw lots of top games with Thors, MMM, often without tanks (although you may see Morrow massing tanks as he always does 1 type unit). In Mirror it won't change the strategy of marine,tanks,vikings.

Thus, Tanks are now not the primary and most used unit unlike SC1. This is good! A change, not having to make it all like SC1. Then again, frm war3's nerfing history - Nerfing a unit doesnt mean 'I wont use the unit anymore', pretty much strats may remain. I never counted on pure mech vs zerg.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Protoss are ultra effective against terran which go mechs. Immortals with their hardend shields are extreemly effective against siege tanks and thors. Thus you eithor have to go a mixture, or something else.

Zerg on the other hand do not have something as effective as hardend shield for taking on high damage units. Thus siegetanks and thors can be problimatic. However I have heard that ultralisks and speedlings are effective against that stratergy if you attack at the right time. Obviously attcking siegetanks up a ramp with thors blocking the entrance will likly yield poor results.

 

[PurplePoot]

People really overestimate Marines against Mutalisks.

Also, TheTerran, you are still making no sense.

 

[Latecat]

hmm, i cant see much problems with the updates. I do agree with PP about the ultras tho, and the sieges...well theyre not that effective anymore, but i prob. will be using em later on again (once i get my comp back that is), more or less.

if the updates are a problem, i figure out something else. simple as that.

 

[Anti_Bodies]

So then how are Zerg supposed to destroy a fixed position with thors blocking ramp and siege tanks deployed? Blood Lords? Infestors?

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Also, TheTerran, you are still making no sense.

In short: Making Terran in SC2 not tank-based, unlike SC1 where you use tanks all the time is a good step in making SC2 less similar to SC1. Provided that this nerf will make tanks less used. I usually make a lot of sense but a certain group of people fails to understand me.

 

[Arhowk]

noooo! my precious siegetank anti-rush!

 

[PurplePoot]

So then how are Zerg supposed to destroy a fixed position with thors blocking ramp and siege tanks deployed? Blood Lords? Infestors?

Broodlords eat that like nobody's business.

In short: Making Terran in SC2 not tank-based, unlike SC1 where you use tanks all the time is a good step in making SC2 less similar to SC1. Provided that this nerf will make tanks less used. I usually make a lot of sense but a certain group of people fails to understand me.

Changing the role of one unit and ignoring the fact that most units have different roles will not really make it less like SC1. In addition, Terran in SC2 is not tank-based.

noooo! my precious siegetank anti-rush!

I can't think of a single rush strategy that is countered by siege tanks.

 

[mrzwach]

Also lol with this patch siege tanks now have more DPS against unarmored enemies when not in siege mode.

 

[PurplePoot]

So that's true of both modes now.

 

[TwistedImage]

Also lol with this patch siege tanks now have more DPS against unarmored enemies when not in siege mode.

Splash out of the picture, of course.

The splash is what makes the siege tanks so fucking ridiculously rigged. I don't mind the damage in and of itself, but the splash is just massive overkill. Killing 5 hydralisks with 3 shots = bad. 'Specially since you can have like 5 tanks late mid-game.

As for the ultras, the nerf was called for. They're still very very useful against mech terrans or ground protoss, without being rigged.

BCs, good. There is not a single ground unit that can beat BCs as of now.

EDIT: Also, reaper fix is good. Terran against zerg will no longer be "lol i beat u with 1/3 the skill."

 

[PurplePoot]

5 rax reaper is one of the most skill-intensive builds of the game. Too strong or not, don't look down upon Terran players skill-wise because they use it.

--

Siege tanks can't kill 5 hydras in 3 shots unless you are clumping them and are not actually fighting (in which case why are you suiciding into tanks?), and you can have a lot more than 5 tanks midgame if you are going tanks.

 

[TwistedImage]

5 rax reaper is one of the most skill-intensive builds of the game. Too strong or not, don't look down upon Terran players skill-wise because they use it.

--

Siege tanks can't kill 5 hydras in 3 shots unless you are clumping them and are not actually fighting (in which case why are you suiciding into tanks?), and you can have a lot more than 5 tanks midgame if you are going tanks.

Oh, you misunderstood the last part. Reapers aren't half as skill-intensive as late-game micro/macro imo tho.

Anyway, I was referring to TvZ in general. That's how it works now. I've been beaten by terrans who I outplayed on every level because of tanks - don't say air, mutas are really expensive and easily countered by marines, which are cost-efficient.

 

[PurplePoot]

Mutalisks are one of the most cost-efficient units in the game as long as you don't just blindly 1a.

Also, if they beat you "because of tanks" I doubt you outplayed them on every level--putting more effort into the game only to make a bad army composition and suicide it into tanks is not outplaying them. If this nerf was even supposed to affect Tanks it will have a much larger effect on Marine/Tank pushes than midgame tanks.

And your post reads like you were referring to reapers specifically not taking any skill, so no, I assume you are just trying to cover your ass.

As MorroW said (and I am paraphrasing), "just because on some level the matchup is imbalanced doesn't mean every game that Terran won against Zerg was because of imbalance". In fact, I'd go so far to say that most aren't, and the only significant problem with TvZ right now is the map pool (basically, steppes of war being rigged for Terran) and 5 rax reaper, which many (most?) pros seem to agree with.

 

[TwistedImage]

I'm not trying to "cover my ass," I have my honour, thank you very much. In fact, I'm not even going to reply any more because of that demeaning statement right there.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

5 rax reaper is one of the most skill-intensive builds of the game. Too strong or not, don't look down upon Terran players skill-wise because they use it.

5 rax reapers !? Is there a pro replay with such thing? I know im currently a little off sc2 events but in few days, the Return.

 

[PurplePoot]

I'm not trying to "cover my ass," I have my honour, thank you very much. In fact, I'm not even going to reply any more because of that demeaning statement right there.

You pretty much said that 5rax reaper ("Reapers", and the part that people complain about with regards to reapers is 5rax reaper) takes 1/3 the skill of whatever the Zerg player is doing, and when I called you on it you changed your tune. Now you're playing offended because I called you on that, neat.

--

Imtor, watch IdrA vs MorroW at the IEM finals.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Err I watch Morrow only if I have none of my faves replays. Sure he's a SC player, but I prefer Bratok (who is also SC) and some war3 players. I would suggest Naama's replays vs Zerg if you come across any. I know from war3, havent played him though, now with patches it may have changed but pretty effective stategy from whom I started playing like that vs zerg. (Naama vs Madfrog I believe was a recent game)

Morrow specifically is just massing 1 type unit. Vs Bratok he was making 10-15 tanks back in beta, I've seen him massing nothing but Vikings, so no wonder he's massing again 1 type.

 

[PurplePoot]

You clearly didn't watch the games. MorroW is arguably the best Terran player in the west and he certainly does not only mass one type of unit. The reason he massed tanks and vikings in TvT was presumably because that's basically how you play TvT (there are bio builds too but arguably the strongest build, mech, is tank/viking). I suppose IdrA only makes one or two types of unit because in ZvZ he rarely gets anything other than Zerglings and Banelings?

That said, a mass reaper opening is very strong.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Dude. After seeing maybe more than 100 top terran replays in beta, I know how they play vs Terran or any race. You're right, I didn't see these replays YET, though I can assure you, Morrow has done nothing but tanks vs Zerg on Metalopolis (in beta). I don't like his style very much though some of these abusive strats like reapers, will come in handy to make those at ladder nerdrage say CHEESE.

 

[PurplePoot]

BratOK is a Terran player.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I know... it's actually the one I like watching the most. hes my #1 player

 

[Zorga]

I prefer watching TLO when he plays Terran. He doesn't just do the regular builds. He often does off the wall tactics, and he often manages to win with them too.

Back to my opinions on the patch.

The ST nerf is too big. It should be 40 / + 10 vs *Heavy*

Voidrays should have had their range down by 1.

The Zealot nerf doesn't really seem necessary, although the warp gate upgrade was.

I don't understand the reaper nerf, but then i hardly ever use reapers.

The bunker nerf seems unnecessary

I don't really have any opinion on the BC/Ultralisk nerfs

 

[TwistedImage]

40 +10 against light?

It'd still be ridiculously overpowered against zerg, terran bio builds, and also against protoss.

That's most of the game.

 

[Zorga]

Ye i just saw my mistake, i meant + 10 versus Heavy of course. Thanks for pointing it out ^^.

 

[TwistedImage]

35 is completely fine. It's less rigged against hydralisks now. It'd still 2 shot with 40.