Night Stream

[INSEKT]

I tested it with a friend, but we are noobs so I will appreciate any feedback.

 

[Zucth]

The map look very pretty in my eyes, so much effort you put in environment detail not to lied. I love 80% of the map design. I didn't look into any item drop or units since I'm also a newbie xD.
I have one or two argue here, from the way I point in the picture it is a bit weird and uhh idk but it feel like the map design that you can only decide to raid only one side of the map, if you raid one gm and want to go to another one like someone who love to play annoying, you have to use portal or went back to where you from to the river there's no place for pass between each above water route. it also hard to defend if you rush to your right base and enemy take control of portal. I feel a bit annoy to run around the circle back to your base and go the left one, if we follow from start they can camp the support in the other side of the portal as well or Idk but we this we will cause a chaos tbh, when the attacker take short range than you to raid and the defender have the longer way to do it but safer.

second one is about the portal itself, if you remove it the game will be even harder to move around since there's only one mid pass from two side. Good things is that we can have a very mid control game(with that dangerous cliff near tavern) to prevent enemy from using it(if enemy attack defender can went back up and do creepjack). But yeah since it have design like this I feel a bit don't know. Let other who do better than me talk about this walk route instead, xD sry for taking your time.

 

[mafe]

Some incomplete notes and suggestions for improvement:
1. Most areas of the map seem to have a lack of space to maneuver (especially melee-heavy) armies. Chokepoints are too narrow. Especially if you use ramps, you should acitively try to make them as wide as possible. If you display the grid in the editor, a width of 1.5 yellow cells should be the bare minimum for any ramp. This also applies to main bases and expansions in particular, where building placement will inevitably get in the way of units trying to move around.
2. Global weather effects are usually considered to be distracting. Just use local effects in a small number of locations instead.
3. At least one creep at each expansion must be not on camp stance and/or lvl 7+. Otherwise you can just build there before killing the creeps and expand in easymode by putting towers up before killing the creeps.
4. Mercs bought at the eastern merc camp can become stuck. The same applies to shredders and sappers at the southern lab.
5. Mixing permanent/charged item drops is not a good idea imho. It just unnecessairly increases the importance of itemluck.
6. For competitive maps, there should not be any gaps between trees (or doodads in general). Pace trees exclusively by using the size 2 circular tool, so that new trees overlap perfectly with exisiting trees.

 

[INSEKT]

Some incomplete notes and suggestions for improvement:
1. Most areas of the map seem to have a lack of space to maneuver (especially melee-heavy) armies. Chokepoints are too narrow. Especially if you use ramps, you should acitively try to make them as wide as possible. If you display the grid in the editor, a width of 1.5 yellow cells should be the bare minimum for any ramp. This also applies to main bases and expansions in particular, where building placement will inevitably get in the way of units trying to move around.
2. Global weather effects are usually considered to be distracting. Just use local effects in a small number of locations instead.
3. At least one creep at each expansion must be not on camp stance and/or lvl 7+. Otherwise you can just build there before killing the creeps and expand in easymode by putting towers up before killing the creeps.
4. Mercs bought at the eastern merc camp can become stuck. The same applies to shredders and sappers at the southern lab.
5. Mixing permanent/charged item drops is not a good idea imho. It just unnecessairly increases the importance of itemluck.
6. For competitive maps, there should not be any gaps between trees (or doodads in general). Pace trees exclusively by using the size 2 circular tool, so that new trees overlap perfectly with exisiting trees.

1. I increased important narrowest ramps width to something near 1,5 yellow cells. Only ramps strictly near Tavern are narrow, but there are another two paths nearby (second ramp and river-path), so caught players can react.
2. Good idea. I was thinking about rays only over the river, but then I totally forgot about it Thanks for reminding me.
3. Strongest creeps changed to normal stance.
4. Yeah, southern Lab can block units, I moved some doodads, now its fine. But I tested purchasing all types of mercenaries from both Merc Camps and no one was stuck. When you met this situation? Anyway I moved doodads a bit.
5. OK, dragons now drops charged-items only.
6. Yup, few gaps are created intentionally, but most of the time trees looks like there is a spot, while it is usually blocked by something else (rocks for example). If you found dead spots, I would appreciate example screenshots.

Map updated. Thanks!

 

[Zucth]

1. I increased important narrowest ramps width to something near 1,5 yellow cells. Only ramps strictly near Tavern are narrow, but there are another two paths nearby (second ramp and river-path), so caught players can react.
2. Good idea. I was thinking about rays only over the river, but then I totally forgot about it Thanks for reminding me.
3. Strongest creeps changed to normal stance.
4. Yeah, southern Lab can block units, I moved some doodads, now its fine. But I tested purchasing all types of mercenaries from both Merc Camps and no one was stuck. When you met this situation? Anyway I moved doodads a bit.
5. OK, dragons now drops charged-items only.
6. Yup, few gaps are created intentionally, but most of the time trees looks like there is a spot, while it is usually blocked by something else (rocks for example). If you found dead spots, I would appreciate example screenshots.

No gaps to enter by wisps example

Map updated. Thanks!

The creep that guard the goldmines must not set as blue.

 

[INSEKT]

The creep that guard the goldmines must not set as blue.

I said I changed it already.

 

[mafe]

1. I increased important narrowest ramps width to something near 1,5 yellow cells. Only ramps strictly near Tavern are narrow, but there are another two paths nearby (second ramp and river-path), so caught players can react.
2. Good idea. I was thinking about rays only over the river, but then I totally forgot about it Thanks for reminding me.
3. Strongest creeps changed to normal stance.
4. Yeah, southern Lab can block units, I moved some doodads, now its fine. But I tested purchasing all types of mercenaries from both Merc Camps and no one was stuck. When you met this situation? Anyway I moved doodads a bit.
5. OK, dragons now drops charged-items only.
6. Yup, few gaps are created intentionally, but most of the time trees looks like there is a spot, while it is usually blocked by something else (rocks for example). If you found dead spots, I would appreciate example screenshots.
Map updated. Thanks!

1. It's better now, but it's still only the minimum
2+3+5. Good.
4. TBH I only checked the pathing in the editor, not ingame, and from the editor it seemed possible (although unlikely) that a merc could have been stuck on the left side of the merc camp. Normally mercs spawn along the southern edge of the merc camp, but if this already blocked by other units, they may spawn on a side (although again, it seems more likely that they will spawn on the right side than on the left in this case).
6. Yes there seem to be much fewer "safe wisp" trees now (but they are not entirely removed).

 

[INSEKT]

1. It's better now, but it's still only the minimum
2+3+5. Good.
4. TBH I only checked the pathing in the editor, not ingame, and from the editor it seemed possible (although unlikely) that a merc could have been stuck on the left side of the merc camp. Normally mercs spawn along the southern edge of the merc camp, but if this already blocked by other units, they may spawn on a side (although again, it seems more likely that they will spawn on the right side than on the left in this case).
6. Yes there seem to be much fewer "safe wisp" trees now (but they are not entirely removed).

1. Okay, I made them wide as much as I could without destroying terraining nearby. It should be enough now.

Spoiler: Center ramps

4. Tested it ingame by hiring all creeps at once and no one was stuck, so it was this "although unlikely" situation I think Anyway spacing near neutral buildings is increased a bit more.
6. Looking for these spots was pointless job, so I decided to delete and revisit trees placing all over the map. It took me few hours, but there should be no more gaps for Wisps, where melee units cannot reach them.

 

[WolfFarkas]

fast opinions.

the creep in the corner, remove,dead ends are bad, is no good to go to a place and then go back,is not fluid play.
for a 86x86 waygates, IMO are pointless and can make some unpredictible creeping situations,
consider there are no 1v1 ladder maps with waygates.

I want to point 2 things wich I like.
1) merc. positions.
2) those mines, it remebers me concealed hills, so I like the concept.

 

[INSEKT]

the creep in the corner, remove,dead ends are bad, is no good to go to a place and then go back,is not fluid play.
for a 86x86 waygates, IMO are pointless and can make some unpredictible creeping situations,
consider there are no 1v1 ladder maps with waygates.

Red camps in corners had two ways leading to them before, but I filled one with trees due to lack of this resource near mainbases. If you delete these trees from bot and top of the map, you will notice second path. Still trying to find right solutions, which could solve both problems without rejecting this high-ground at the back of the base.

I know there are no maps in 1v1 ladder with Portals, but I think that is because mapmakers usually use them as a tool that help get to closed location (cut off island for example), and not as a way to quickly switch sides of the map. My idea was to create another (but not forced-to-use) method to travel from one expansion to another, avoiding enemy mainbase and center paths, yet in the same time portals cannot be used to quickly travel from one mainbase to another. I do not think we saw this before.

As I said before, if this would not work, I considered replacing Portals with Fountains of Life, but I am not sure about balance, because there would be all types of neutral buildings on the map. From the other side, these fountains would be far away from mainbases, so maybe they could not be so impactful. Any opinions on this?

 

[WolfFarkas]

Red camps in corners had two ways leading to them before, but I filled one with trees due to lack of this resource near mainbases. If you delete these trees from bot and top of the map, you will notice second path. Still trying to find right solutions, which could solve both problems without rejecting this high-ground at the back of the base.

I know there are no maps in 1v1 ladder with Portals, but I think that is because mapmakers usually use them as a tool that help get to closed location (cut off island for example), and not as a way to quickly switch sides of the map. My idea was to create another (but not forced-to-use) method to travel from one expansion to another, avoiding enemy mainbase and center paths, yet in the same time portals cannot be used to quickly travel from one mainbase to another. I do not think we saw this before.

As I said before, if this would not work, I considered replacing Portals with Fountains of Life, but I am not sure about balance, because there would be all types of neutral buildings on the map. From the other side, these fountains would be far away from mainbases, so maybe they could not be so impactful. Any opinions on this?

I really like fountains, but I am currently avoiding them after Ruins of Aszhara did a ladder version with no fountains.

secret valley is on ladder, with fountains, but not mercs. as you said the number of neutral buildings, I would go with health fountains instead of portals just in case.

I will try something with fountains and waygates, but not now.

instead of portals you could put the red creeps in the corners.?

 

[INSEKT]

instead of portals you could put the red creeps in the corners.?

Ye, this will be the final solution I think, if Portals will not work as intended.

I switched back high ground at the back of the mainbases to previous version.

 

[Nudl9]

I think the map can be improved by just trimming the fat and aiming for visual cohesion.
Also wider ramps.

Other then that looks ok.
Fights around the shops could be fun.

 

[INSEKT]

Okay, I decided to remove twin-ramps near Tavern for both players, replaced with wide one. This area has much more space for units now.

Spoiler: Changed ramps

All other ramps over the map are wider too.
I also removed red camps behind mainbase and filled empty space with trees. High ground is still there for possible late game plays.
At the end I trimmed few trees here and here for smoother unit movement + some minor changes with unit and neutral buildings positioning.

 

[mafe]

Approved based on the reviews of the recent melee mapping contest: Hive Cup 2020: Melee Mapping Contest #6 - Results

While the judges were critical, and I agree that the gameplay is not compatible with what most players will expect, I also think that the are no outright (gameplay-related) bugs that I could find.

Given that gameplay is somewhat subjective and the basics/terrain are ok: Map approved.

 

[INSEKT]

Okay lads, based on your opinions I reduced high ground by one, and 10 ramps were removed. Map should be much more playable now.