Neatherland Conflict v0.34a

[Psycho Ninja]

Chaos Dragon and other misc. stuff

Just Throwing some input on the chaos dragon thing.

It may be the fact that Hash is just really good with the dragon himself but whenever versing him chaos is obscenely hard to get through to start fighting him head on, and between dodging his spells it starts to become like one of those boss fights you'd find on a platforming game constantly dodging things. which in the end isn't THAT annoying until you get pinned off by his direct damage spell so yea some sort of wind barrage would be a good twist into that (also could implement some sweet strategies as far as knocking people into chaos and what not)

As far as that flooding the valley idea, that sounds actually really cool.
something else I've thought to be a really interesting ability is some sort of shadow-ish guy making a evil version of his enemy or possibly himself.

on a side note if your ever need help with thinking of heros or abilities for heros i'd be glad to toss some ideas your way

 

[Zacharias]

I just enjoy how the chaos dragon is so epic.

His ultimate and chaos, especially when used at the same time, absolutely torch everything near him. Nobody comes close to the spectacular visuals the chaos dragon has.

That´s why i´ll decreased dmg of chaos

Though I'd say publish it now if its just the chaos dragon holding you back

Ok i will upload it now.... just a second.....

[...]which in the end isn't THAT annoying until you get pinned off by his direct damage spell so yea some sort of wind barrage would be a good twist into that (also could implement some sweet strategies as far as knocking people into chaos and what not)

I don´t like the idea of a classical windwalk, as it doesn´t fit into the dragons conzept. Maybe something slowing or stunning. Knocking into Chaos sounds good.
How about eating the hero as a secondary ability (non-hero) and then a ability to spit out the swallowed unit, dealing damage to the unit (DoT) to all near units (cause of stomach acid) and slowing them.

As far as that flooding the valley idea, that sounds actually really cool.

Thx, i´m currently working on it, its not as easy.

something else I've thought to be a really interesting ability is some sort of shadow-ish guy making a evil version of his enemy or possibly himself.

Huuuu thats sounds great man!

on a side note if your ever need help with thinking of heros or abilities for heros i'd be glad to toss some ideas your way

Just put the ideas here into this thread, we can discuss them at any time, implementing them, testing them etc. It´s a beta, it´s possible So just give input, i´ll see what i can do.

 

[Hashinshin]

I really wouldn't decrease the damage of chaos, but I'd rather it had base damage and just scaled on 1x strength.

Give it a universal 140 base damage across all ranks, that way by the end of the game its not closing in on 400 damage mega shots. 150 damage + 1 strength, and additional ranks cause more to fall down.

But you have to remember, this would give the chaos dragon a lot of early game power, something he doesn't have right now. So you'd be taking away late game power for early game power. But remember also, chaos is a 90 second cooldown. 3x the cooldown of ANY comparable ability, and 10x the cooldown of some other AoE abilities. I really like how it is now to be honest, I really do. If you lower the cooldown to make up for lower damage then it really doesn't deserve the amazing graphic he has now. And remember, chaos can't be directed onto enemy heroes. You can merely walk away and over half the time never take a single hit from it. I struggle to even get 1 kill for 1 death with the chaos damage, hes really just a flashy lane pusher with a lot of cool graphics.

 

[Zacharias]

I really wouldn't decrease the damage of chaos, but I'd rather it had base damage and just scaled on 1x strength.

Give it a universal 140 base damage across all ranks, that way by the end of the game its not closing in on 400 damage mega shots. 150 damage + 1 strength, and additional ranks cause more to fall down.

But you have to remember, this would give the chaos dragon a lot of early game power, something he doesn't have right now. So you'd be taking away late game power for early game power. But remember also, chaos is a 90 second cooldown. 3x the cooldown of ANY comparable ability, and 10x the cooldown of some other AoE abilities. I really like how it is now to be honest, I really do. If you lower the cooldown to make up for lower damage then it really doesn't deserve the amazing graphic he has now. And remember, chaos can't be directed onto enemy heroes. You can merely walk away and over half the time never take a single hit from it. I struggle to even get 1 kill for 1 death with the chaos damage, hes really just a flashy lane pusher with a lot of cool graphics.

Well, lets see. I´ve decreased dmg to 90+STR.
Lets test it.
You will also have noticed the huge amount of fixes and re-balances, one of the biggest updates so far

 

[Hashinshin]

I wouldn't go too far, the balance is pretty close as is. And a lot of heroes rely on AoE damage just to be balanced.

 

[Zacharias]

I wouldn't go too far, the balance is pretty close as is. And a lot of heroes rely on AoE damage just to be balanced.

Takes the Spearmaster as an example. He has now a scaled ability. Orbiting hammer is now scaled too. Just look at the changelog. Those changes now where about max 15% of the intitial value, so no big jumps for now

 

[Hashinshin]

I think you went overboard with the chaos nerf there

You went from 2x strength for each meteor to 90 damage + 1/3 strength. Chaos dragon was already pretty well balanced and that kinda butchered his strongest ability's damage. When I had thor's hammer I was hitting about 200 with chaos, now I'll be hitting maybe 110 or 120

At the very least you could make it like 90 + 1x strength or 1.5x strength. Its so easy to just run away from chaos, and its got such a huge cooldown.

I think you wanted to decrease it's damage against the soldiers, but that's really all it was good for. The chaos dragon was really bad at fighting other heroes and now the lich is better against soldiers too . Remember, while the chaos does a lot of damage for 20 meteors, you might hit each soldier 5 times, and a hero once. For a 90 second cooldown its not very impressive anymore.

Thats just my impressions on the chaos dragon though. I'll add more later, just a little set back by my new favorite hero doing such a weak AoE now XD

 

[Zacharias]

Your favorite hero?
Well i will set it to a +STR dmg on the next update.

 

[Hashinshin]

So I've decided to suggest a full hero this time, piecing together a little bit from each of my favorite heroes while giving him something unique. (Was originally gonna suggest some sort of exorcist hero but I really didn't wanna suggest another vampire eske stun lock hero )

Ok, the general idea here is that its a flame dragon, a giant flame dragon. Model size 2x the size of the chaos dragon. He moves 80% the speed of a normal hero and has no basic attack at all. The idea behind him is to combo his flame spells into a massive explosion if you will, but he hurts himself to do it all.

He has some innate ability that is a fireball basically. But its not a stun fireball, or anything like what the firemage has. It basically launches a fireball with strength 1.5x damage at somebody. Everyone near him takes strength 1x damage and is knocked back 300. Direction of the knockback should be away from the target hit, not from the dragon. Base damage of 50. Low mana cost but also drains 5% remaining life, 10 second cooldown. Main target takes a 1 second stun.

His first ability is a line of fire that launches towards a target location. Once the fire reaches a location it explodes. the line of fire can do no damage or just a little bit of damage, the real thing should be this explosion should be kinda avoidable if you're paying attention but do some real damage. Does 2x strength plus 100-300 damage ranks 1-5. Give it say 30 second cooldown. This ability drains also 5% of your remaining life. Think of like a line of gunpowder leading into a barrel >

Second ability is the real one that brings it all together. Its a wave of fire if you will, a line that goes out kinda like the lich's stun ability but everyone it hits get trapped in fire. They get rooted for 3 seconds and take a minor flame DoT equal to maybe 1x strength + 50-200 rank 1-5. This ability drains 8% remaining life.

Third ability is an AoE thats mostly a knockback. Does similar damage to something like the lich's stun, or the vampire's bite. Main use is not for damage but rather the effect. A sign goes on the ground, like the blood mage's flame strike, and after a few seconds a fire pillar erupts that drags everyone in a 500 area 300 closer to the pillar. The idea here is that it drags enemies into the AoE. This has maybe a 15 second cooldown and takes 5% remaining life. I suggest 50-150 damage +1x strength.

For his ultimate I really just wanna copy the chaos dragon's ultimate, that thing is all kinds of awesome. Since obviously I can't though I was thinking of a sort of giant boom last resort desparation real ultimate move. It will drain 50% of your remaining life but pretty much incinerate everything in front of you. It moves out like a V in front of you, another giant fire wave that does something like 300-500 damage +2x strength a second. It takes awhile to get to the end of the V and is avoidable if you're not standing next to the dragon but the dragon is stunned for 2 seconds after it is used. Give it a 90 second cooldown and such. Its channeled for the full duration, with the stun at the end. Idea here is to make it massively powerful with MASSIVE drawbacks.

Thats the idea for my hero anyway. Just a real flashy fire dragon who beats himself up but can chain together his abilities to defeat unsuspecting enemies. He has no basic attack and basically just combos together flame moves to defeat his opponents. They all drain his life though and leave him open to being killed himself.

(On your current version, looks very good. Its very clean this time.)

 

[Zacharias]

(On your current version, looks very good. Its very clean this time.)

That was the idea, clean all bugs, all errors. Give a playable map with a well balanced environment, now we can built on this "mesh".

So I've decided to suggest a full hero this time,[...]

Well.... the fire fury dragon hu?
Well what i like is the idea of his life drain and the fireball with knockback. What i don´t like is the mixture out of abilities, mostly in game now. Remembers me of Chaos dragon, Bloodmage and Oracle.
I really miss a ability to protect him.

• Fireball with knockback
• Breed - lays an egg and creates a small firedragon (i think he needs this, as the motherdragon has no attacks at all)
• Ulti: Fireshield - releases several waves of fire (a nova) which pushes away all enemy units, making it NEARLY impossible to get a hit on him in melee and dealing massive damage for a period of time

 

[Kisame]

Ok, I thought this map was very good in my opinion, it differs greatly from most AoS's, and despite some of the comments its not at all like DotA really. Here are some points -

-Interesting Gamplay Style
-Triggered abilities
-A varying range of interesting heroes
-Good ideas for heroes and skills

A few bad points
-The way the item shops have been set out was quite confusing, you should make the level of the shops more clear and more accesible
-Also there are a LOT of grammar and spelling errors


Apart from that I found this map awesome! I rate this 9.5/10

 

[Zacharias]

-The way the item shops have been set out was quite confusing, you should make the level of the shops more clear and more accesible
-Also there are a LOT of grammar and spelling errors

First, thx, really helps
There is no lvl at the shops, buildings sell basic items for mages, warriors etc (mages guild, Barrack.....) all high level items were purchased at the human vendors (epic smith, epic wizard). That was my idea...

I know there are masses of typos etc, but its just impossible for me to correct them, as i am not a native speaker. But it would be very very very helpfull if you could report them to me, or at least the most common grammar mistakes i made. That would improve my english too

 

[Hashinshin]

Could do uh...

Innate, fireball that does the AoE damage and knockback.
Breed, first ability.
The line explosion idea second ability.
AoE root third ability.
Then that fireguard as ultimate

 

[Zacharias]

Could do uh...

Innate, fireball that does the AoE damage and knockback.
Breed, first ability.
The line explosion idea second ability.
AoE root third ability.
Then that fireguard as ultimate

Sounds good. But fireball and line explosions seems too similar. Maybe a passive ability? Firenova nockback or something like that?

 

[Hashinshin]

Well the idea is that the fireball scatters packs of enemies but is your main source of damage on a target, a nice fairly spammable ability that does half decent damage when you aim it at a target and also scatters the enemy's army. The line explosion idea is that you set it up then stun the enemy or root them as it slowly goes up to them to deal massive damage so you can burst somebody down.

BTW, I'd put chaos dragon at 100 + 1x strength. I'm also gonna try to get a list of ultimate which don't scale or scale so poorly that they need real look at. I'll start with the mummy's ultimate. It hit the druid 5 times for... 1/4 his life.

Also got an idea for a new ultimate off skeleton king. I know if you like his current one, but my suggestion is 90 second cooldown, lasts 10 seconds. Everytime he is hit a skeleton is spawned next to him. Call it "splintering," the bones splinter off him to form new skeletons.

Did get a crashed game. Somebody was using lightning gnoll.

The 2 second delay combined with the weak effect of the new fire mage spell makes it pretty weak. It takes like 2 seconds to activate and doesn't slow for 7 seconds. My friend who always plays fire mage said it was pretty much better to just run rather than use it because the time you spend sitting there gets you killed anyway. I think it could lose the delay and get a bit more AoE, seems like a really restricting AoE. Also, the skeleton bomb has a nasty delay too, but that seems to be a balancer.

I think we should lower the immune time on ezekial's shield. I find that melee heroes don't have much to do against it. Ezekial has massive damage, but is pretty easy to kill. His shield though lets him wreck you for a very long time. Not a huge reduction, a few seconds off the top. You can have a different opinion though, ezekial has gotten nerfed a lot.

 

[Zacharias]

Well the idea is that the fireball scatters packs of enemies but is your main source of damage on a target, a nice fairly spammable ability that does half decent damage when you aim it at a target and also scatters the enemy's army. The line explosion idea is that you set it up then stun the enemy or root them as it slowly goes up to them to deal massive damage so you can burst somebody down.

I see...

BTW, I'd put chaos dragon at 100 + 1x strength. I'm also gonna try to get a list of ultimate which don't scale or scale so poorly that they need real look at. I'll start with the mummy's ultimate. It hit the druid 5 times for... 1/4 his life.

Ok thx.

Also got an idea for a new ultimate off skeleton king. I know if you like his current one, but my suggestion is 90 second cooldown, lasts 10 seconds. Everytime he is hit a skeleton is spawned next to him. Call it "splintering," the bones splinter off him to form new skeletons.

That sounds funny will impement it soon.

Did get a crashed game. Somebody was using lightning gnoll.

Ok, did you notice when it crashed? Which ability?

The 2 second delay combined with the weak effect of the new fire mage spell makes it pretty weak. It takes like 2 seconds to activate and doesn't slow for 7 seconds [...]

Will check the slow and reduce cast time if possible.

I think we should lower the immune time on ezekial's shield. I find that melee heroes don't have much to do against it. Ezekial has massive damage, but is pretty easy to kill. His shield though lets him wreck you for a very long time. Not a huge reduction, a few seconds off the top. You can have a different opinion though, ezekial has gotten nerfed a lot.

Hm ok.


Edit: Sry for taking so long, but i´ve tested the map now for several days, 8 hours a day. Approx 40 changes i would like to implement in the next update (the new hero is not included in this list, but will be done too). So please be patient. Hope i can release the next version the day after tomorrow (thursday MEZ).

Edit: 20.2. Well, everything done except the dragon. This is the last thing for the next update.
The dragon will be able to attack as normal, but very very slow and causes a push back to hit units (-> swords etc will increase damage as usuall).

Edit: 23.2. Dragon is nearly finished, i´m currently working on the last ability. After that i will implement texts and rebalance the dragon a bit. Should be finished today.
Edit: finished and uploaded. Have fun and report issues etc, as usuall ;-)

 

[Hashinshin]

Hrm, I like the dragon but there are a few things that just annoy me.
-Dragon baby is not much stronger than deer, but a max of 1, 30% of your life, stay in egg for awhile, and only last a limited time. At the very least should be unlimited time on field.
-Typo on the dragon's innate ability, should be double, not doubled.
-Dragon's ultimate should probably be on a cooldown and not just an aura. I can blow away an army, waste all my mana, then teleport and do it all again x_X. Maybe double the length and damage but make it a minute cooldown 5 second length.
-Dragon feels more of a strength hero than intellect.
-Devour doesn't restore mana that I see.

Skeleton king whether intended or not his ultimate is available at level 1 and so on. Kinda cool and gives him a lot of options at level 1. Maybe you intended that ? If not, just notifying you.
-Steal soul says "weaks" instead of "weakens"
-Splintering works when the skeleton king hits somebody too, as far as I can tell. You can just update the tooltip to say something like he summons skeletons out of his enemy's bones. Very cool ability.

I'm gonna try to get you lots of grammar mistakes.

 

[Zacharias]

- K noticed the weakness of the dragon baby....
- I will try to add a cooldown on the ultimate of the dragon
Should i change to strength? I´m afraid he gets too strong with this.... but on the other hand.....
Splintering should not summon creatures, but i will test him... love this ability, was a very cool idea thx for that.
Also thx for reporting typos etc, i really need some help there, would increase map quality

 

[Hashinshin]

Ok, I don't think splintering even works when you are hit, merely when you hit enemies. Can't really comment on the strength of the skeleton king, but right now he just feels weak because he has to hit enemies to spawn skeletons. I think that maybe at rank 3 or so of splintering his skeletons should upgrade to normal skeletons, instead of lesser skeletons. Right now I just get that meh feeling when playing him. I think once you fix splintering it'll be good though. If I can though, I suggest two things:
-Make splintering proc on hits by you, and hits on you. That'll let the skeleton king heal up rather well, keep a steady flow of skeletons, but keep his general weakness to AoE heroes.
-At level 12 or so remove the skeleton king's summon skeleton ability and give him a new one that summons normal skeletons
-Oh lord, can you fix the delay on skeleton bomb ? Its really harsh to have an enemy on you who you can't stun to fight back against cause skeleton bomb is delayed by like 3 seconds x_x. Additionally, if you could make skeleton bomb heal 5% of your max life.

Ezekiel's shield should last a max of 8 seconds, and can you try to find a way to make him not immune to spells in whirlwind ? Right now ezekiel just stacks all damage upgrades and ends the game with like 1200 life while even the casters have at least 2000. He has no need to worry about survivability since he is immune to spells or damage the entire fight anyway. Because he stacks all the damage he just hits for ludicrous amounts of damage. There's no escaping him.

Lich king's stun ability is still hotkeyed to C. Fire mage appears to have very bad hotkeys.

I think if you remember, the dragon really doesn't scale that amazing and strength wouldn't make him that amazing. He still lacks stuns or defensive knockbacks, and his damage now works out funkily. He gets 1/2 attack speed and 2x damage, but because of that with a strength or sword item that does +5 damage it'd REALLY only be doing 1/2 the bonus damage as compared to a hero attacking twice as fast. Between his auto attack ability doing +1 strength and having lots of life he might be able to be the damage king hero. And his dragon pet (which I think you should just let last forever) would compliment that. His ultimate is all funky right now though, most dragon people are just running into enemy heroes and killing them then retreating to get mana, kinda a lame way to play.
-The devour ability though.... I can understand if you like it but I'm just not feeling that its fun to use or anything. You eat one guy maybe every 3 minutes or so. They take FOR EVER to be digested and it feels more like something you use to just eat a deer every so often than a real ability.
-Devour ability has a typo, says digist at the end instead of digest.
-Swapping him over to strength would also limit his mana pool. He couldn't max out intellect then run into every hero he fights and use his AoE. He'd run out of mana way too fast. That alone might fix his activate AoE and run into enemy problem.
-I actually have a real suggestion for devour. make it usable on enemy heroes but only when they are at 5/10/15/20/25% life remaining. Make it devour really fast though with maybe a 2 minute cooldown. That would REALLY spice up the ability.

Fire mage got a new developement. By late game you can just SPAM flash lightning. This thing needs ~4.5 seconds IMO. 4 seconds, 4.5 seconds. That area. Possibly more. Additionally, his ultimate and hero selection page still lists him as getting fire rain instead of flash lightning. I would NOT make flash lightning make fire devils. But yeah, a 4.5 second cooldown should be enough, just enough to let enemies fight back if even for a few seconds. Its a 50% increase in total cooldown and that should be fine to try for a patch.

So if I could sum up my non grammar recommended changes.
-Swap dragon over to strength, put a 30 second cooldown on his AoE (so you can't run into enemy, turn off, then run into another 10 seconds later.)
-Devour. Make it usable on enemy heroes but only when they are at 5/10/15/20/25% life remaining. Make it devour really fast though with maybe a 2 minute cooldown. That would REALLY spice up the ability.
-Baby dragon could use an infinite life span at the very least.
-Fix the massive delay on skeleton bomb.
-Keep the same initial time on divine shield, but max it out at 8 seconds. On top of that, try and get whirlwind to not give spell immunity.
-Mr. Stock-Restock's ability to gain gold on damage and lose on heal should have both values doubled, that way he can actually gain real gold from the ability. At the very least double the gold gain, might make him a better hero.
-Make blademaster's illusions do 10% damage so its just a teensy bit harder to tell the real one.
-Anamolies need to scale. Nuclear technition is more annoying than useful late game. Hardly damaging in the slightest.
-Black mage's minions don't seem to scale at all.
-Fear's DoT makes he INSANE early game, very weak late game.
-Flash lightning needs a 4.5 second cooldown, up from 3 seconds. A 50% increase should be enough.
-Corpse explosion should go to 2/3 or 1 int per body. Right now it feels so meh for how you you have to set it up MUCH Better than other AoEs. Warlock's ultimate also should effect a 50% bigger area, its so small right now that nobody even stays in it for 5 seconds not to mention 20. His Wall of bodies also scales poorly into late game.

(I'm trying to play as all the different heroes to get a feel of what abilities aren't wanted or useful.)

 

[Psycho Ninja]

That sniper Hash suggested a while ago

As a suggestion for a new hero, I think the good side needs a stealthy guy. However, I think to differentiate him from the assassin he should be a ranged guy. With a model kinda like Tau Elite Commando - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site

To build on that specifically, i definitely think that the good side needs an assassin type unit.

so some of the ideas i've tossed around as far as Abilities go

-Hide or Camouflage (stealth that either cannot move or moves at a slower than average speed) [Maybe deals more damage on first strike coming out]
- Lock and Load (increased fire rate possibly damage too)
- Deploy Recon Droid (summons a small unit that can either be in stealth and just move around for extra sight or be seen and have a small attack)
-Distortion Grenade (either a stun or a slow with slight damage)
-Snipe [if you don't use it for his ultimate] (a shot with increased damage)

And for the ultimate ideas
-Snipe [if you don't like it as an ability] (explained)
-Long sight [if you don't like the drones something used to gain sight from far away] (simply reveals an area selected)
-Orbital Strike (a damage aoe that i would assume look like moonfire mainly some sort of lazer beam from the sky)

Hope you like a few of those, I'm still thinking of some of the abilities of the "shadow weaver" or whatever you'd call him that i suggested a while ago.

 

[Zacharias]

-Make splintering proc on hits by you, and hits on you. That'll let the skeleton king heal up rather well, keep a steady flow of skeletons, but keep his general weakness to AoE heroes.
-At level 12 or so remove the skeleton king's summon skeleton ability and give him a new one that summons normal skeletons

Approved, it will switch to normal skeletons on lvl4 and 5 (ability level).

-Oh lord, can you fix the delay on skeleton bomb ? Its really harsh to have an enemy on you who you can't stun to fight back against cause skeleton bomb is delayed by like 3 seconds x_x. Additionally, if you could make skeleton bomb heal 5% of your max life.

Ok, forgot about it. I think dmg+stun+heal would be too much. Lets try it this way: 0.00s cd

Ezekiel's shield should last a max of 8 seconds, and can you try to find a way to make him not immune to spells in whirlwind?

Reduced Godlike to 4-8s.
I´ll have to manual retrigger Whirlwind, i´m on it.

Lich king's stun ability is still hotkeyed to C. Fire mage appears to have very bad hotkeys.

Both, Lich and Firemage, checked and tried out ingame, everything works fine on QWER. Keep Captain Capslock away from your keyboard.

So if I could sum up my non grammar recommended changes.
-Swap dragon over to strength, put a 30 second cooldown on his AoE (so you can't run into enemy, turn off, then run into another 10 seconds later.)
-Devour. Make it usable on enemy heroes but only when they are at 5/10/15/20/25% life remaining. Make it devour really fast though with maybe a 2 minute cooldown. That would REALLY spice up the ability.

Done, except eating heros. Kill at 25%? Thats a bit too imba don´t you think? I also could also just trigger that, its not possible to make heros over e.g. 20% "unaim-able".

-Baby dragon could use an infinite life span at the very least.
-Fix the massive delay on skeleton bomb.
-Mr. Stock-Restock's ability to gain gold on damage and lose on heal should have both values doubled, that way he can actually gain real gold from the ability. At the very least double the gold gain, might make him a better hero.
-Make blademaster's illusions do 10% damage so its just a teensy bit harder to tell the real one.
-Anamolies need to scale. Nuclear technition is more annoying than useful late game. Hardly damaging in the slightest.
-Black mage's minions don't seem to scale at all.

Done. Lasts wasn´t planned, as they scale anyway. But lets try it out.

-Fear's DoT makes he INSANE early game, very weak late game.

Increased scaling, decreased initial value.

-Flash lightning needs a 4.5 second cooldown, up from 3 seconds. A 50% increase should be enough.
-Corpse explosion should go to 2/3 or 1 int per body. Right now it feels so meh for how you you have to set it up MUCH Better than other AoEs.

Done. Also increased dmg of CE a bit.

Warlock's ultimate also should effect a 50% bigger area, its so small right now that nobody even stays in it for 5 seconds not to mention 20.

Increased radius to 350aoe.

His Wall of bodies also scales poorly into late game.

I scaled them now by creeps, but i think they were too strong now, but lets check that out in some test games.

To build on that specifically, i definitely think that the good side needs an assassin type unit.
[...]

Thx for that. I have downsized the model to 120kb (inkl textures) think that can be included in the map.

• Reload (innate): he will have to reload every 10 attacks or something like this (automatic)
• Defence position: slow movement, 20-60% evasion, invisible while not attacking
• Lock and Load: faster reload time and shooting
• Deploy Recon Droid: repairing the warrior, small gun (GoblinRemoteAirplane1 - The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site)
• or Distortion Grenade: maybe a flash effect on screen+stun?
• Ion Beam: uuuh lets play with some effects, i´m currently thinking of the ion beam of C&C Tiberian Conflict; small laser to target, then several rings (getting smaller) will slam the ground. the last will make just.... booom

Edit: 25.02 Omg implemented 4 abilities, one left. Highly addictive hero

Edit: Done. have fun

Edit: I have already noticed a bug when reloading and go to defence position. Hotfix will be published tomorrow.

Edit: 28.02: Finally fixed several bugs, including a nasty one at Distortion Grenade (all non-host players out of sight kicked)

 

[Hashinshin]

Ok.

-Skeleton king's splinter summons normal skeletons until the rank where its supposed to summon normal skeletons, where it summons lesser skeletons.
-Tau's ultimate has it's graphic never end now.
-If you are in the water you will take damage till the flood is over. Even if you leave, die already, or do anything.
-Fire dragon's abilities still say they scale off int, even if they don't the tooltips say they do.
-Fire dragon's base ability has a typo "powerfull"
-Fire dragon's devour ability still says "digist at the end"
-The Warlock's DoT scales a little poor. Increase that to 1.5 intellect. By late game it was doing... 600 damage... granted corpse explosion became pretty good (walk over the pile of bodies and get 1 shot) people who didn't go over the bodies rendered me nearly useless. The cursemaster could also get some scaling on his DoT(s)

Tau is hilariously overpowered right now. I would suggest limiting him to 15-20 seconds in stealth, lowering his starting and scaling damage by 33%, and seeing if that helps at all.
I even took a video http://www.xfire.com/video/817f2/ My friend got complete damage upgrades because nobody could fight back. Silence, dead. Maybe you got 1 or 2 spells off. Thats it. Thats literally all of it. His damage just goes to complete absurdity late game. Note that I had 4 matter essences ! 3400 life lol.

 

[Zacharias]

Well i think reducing the duration of Distortion Grenade will help to fight back. What to do with its damage? I suggest decreasing the amount of ammunition in his magazine to 6, additionally speed up reloading by 30%. Reducing damage would not help in late game (dagger,sword etc ignores dmg reduction, maybe i can get something else tuning it down).

 

[Psycho Ninja]

In the Commando's Defence

In the commandos Defense i did have pretty good items at that time the video was shot, but yea i can see the problem has is talking about.

also, personally i think the defense positions' name should be changed to something like stalk, activate camouflage, or something more specific to him gaining stealth.

also- the ability is named activate defence position but the tool tip as a typo that makes it say something like aticvate, not really sure but yea one or two letters were switched.

 

[Zacharias]

Thx.
I renamed it to camouflage, fixed the icon of the buff and the typo.
Following changes will be implemented in the next update:
- Tau: deals only 60% dmg, -40% cooldown on attack, +5 ammunition per magazine
- Reload: decreased duration 6|5.5|5|4.5|4|3.5
- Defence Position: it now takes 3 seconds to get camouflaged

I checked that several times, calculated AND tested out the dmg/s of 3 Heros, Archangel, Lightning Gnoll and the Tau. The Tau deals approx -15% dmg of the Gnoll, the archangel is about +40% above. But loading time is included in the dmg/s, otherwhise the Tau is up to the archangel. Think thats a good deal.

 

[Hashinshin]

Sounds cool, did you fix up the other stuff I mentioned ?

And when is it being updated ?

The change to 3 seconds before cloak is awesome. Was extremely annoying to fight a ranged opponent that could cloak at will and leave you unopen to counter attack.

 

[Zacharias]

Yes. I´m currently working on the scaling of cursemasters abilities.
Any more ideas?

Edit:

-Tau's ultimate has it's graphic never end now.

This happens in a special case which i cant re-produce, i only recognized that once. Will take some time....

This error didn´t occur in the last 10 games, please report if you got it. I also rechecked the whole trigger, no bug found so far.

 

[monoflauta]

Sorry but i didnt like it, you did a lot of effort but i didnt like it but i will put you a 4/5

 

[Zacharias]

Sorry but i didnt like it, you did a lot of effort but i didnt like it but i will put you a 4/5

Well, no problem. But please, why dont you like it?

 

[Hashinshin]

Ok, idea for a disruption based hero.

Has low life, on par with tau. 0 starting armor. Agility based hero.

Innate ability: Hero stealths for 2 seconds. In a about a 600 AoE 20 or so copies of the hero start running around. They do no damage, have no collision, only serve to confuse enemies as to where the real version of the hero is. Computer controlled and unselectable.

First ability. Stuns an enemy and does damage + 2x agility. Knocks them back and slows them for 3 seconds maybe 20%. 20 second cooldown. Keeps him from stunning an enemy and keep hitting them.

Second ability: Teleports you to location. In your place a copy of you is left. Does 50% damage and has no abilities. Lasts 10 seconds. 20 second cooldown. Confuses the enemy as to where you really are because they might not notice a clone.

Third ability: Makes an ally do the taunt command. Forces all enemies to attack that creep for 5 seconds. 15 second cooldown.

Ultimate: Teleports you to target location. After 3 seconds you will go back to your original lociation. All people in about a 200 AoE of where you teleported to will be stunned for 3 seconds. 30 second cooldown.

Idea is that he is frail, easy to kill, but doesn't let enemies hit him much. The taunt ability keeps him from harm while giving him a way to keep summon heroes from just setting the summons on him. His stuns and pushbacks let him combat melee heroes while keeping him vulnerable when they aren't stunned. The idea is he doesn't do alot of damage, maybe -20% of ezekiel, but enough to keep the enemies on their toes. Heroes like fire mage would be able to combat him with slows and stuns of their own.

Feel free to critique.

This patch:
-Golems don't scale, but once they do thats an AWESOME idea for aura heroes like commander and battle mage. I really REALLY want them to scale so I can start giving them damage auras and stuff. Make them scale big too, make them huge, make them a big big deal. Its really cool, actually.
-I think tau's problem is just his VERY fast base attack speed. Agility items which give him +damage end up being really good cause he fires 4 times as fast. Normal heroes hit once with 10 agility for 100 damage. He hits 4 times with 10 agility for 60 damage each, so even his half base damage ends up being a lot more.
-Fire dragon's devour should be a % of life, or something. Maybe not since he'd have a LOT of life... maybe nothing, I dunno. I guess since creep's life will keep increasing that this ability will keep giving more life. Nevermind then.
-Mr. Stock restock's ability that gives gold on death, reduce the % lost by half. He should finally be good after that.
-Cap corpse explosion at 2 or 3 corpses if you can. If you can't not a BIG deal, I just want it to be strong if you're over a pile of bodies, but not 1shot a hero from full life strong.
-I think cursemaster should have his damage curse (ability 3) down to 50 second cooldown, mana cost reduced on horrid curse about 50 a rank, and should have 50 more base life. Also, increase the damage on his tenticles a bit, and add another 50 base life.
-Fire dragons and tenticles seem to have really poor scaling. ESPECIALLY the baby dragons.
-Daily ezekiel nerf ! I suggest reducing the range on his holy strike ability. That way he can't just use the massively damaging ability at range and you can actually kite it.
-Horrid curse (the 2 minute cooldown one) and the tauren ability to pick people up should have a longer base duration. Its hard to actually hit people with the tauren ability, and the horrid curse lasts much too short at low ranks. I'd say either make em the same duration throughout all ranks, or at least make the lower ones last longer.
-Increase battlemage's scroll of battle to 40 seconds cooldow, scroll of speed to 30 seconds.

If you could patch a few of these things that'd be awesome. I'm mostly looking forward to scaling golems. Aura heroes now get a real beast to boost up.

 

[Zacharias]

wow what a long report lol
well there are several good ideas i will implement, i also want to add a triple-attack ability with knockback.
regarding the golems: which golems? the firegolems summoned by firemage?
It should be possible to implement all your ideas, will start this afternoon.

 

[Hashinshin]

The black golems that spawn. Also just added final notes. Battle mage needs the cooldowns on his abilities increased. They are basically auras right now as you kill everything before its over then its off cooldown by the next fight. 30 seconds for speed, 40 seconds for battle is what I think.

Tune down the commander profession BTW. I'd do 5%/10%/15%. Right now stacking damage upgrades on the creeps is a little much. And 10% damage on the creeps on yourself for 500 gold is pretty much the only and best choice at game start.

Uhhh... make tauren do some more damage, for a big melee hero hes actually not that damaging. To be honest, I find his proc, third skill, to be rather worthless. Does very little damage. Also, the whole idea of a proc ability is rather poorly done. I'd rather have another activated ability or at least a passive than a proc.

Marine seems weak. His barrel ability seems... eh... his aura is eh... does his mutation scale yet? All around, only really good for anomolies (which need to scale better) and his ultimate.

BTW, do ability and other tweaks before adding a new hero. Adding heroes seems to take awhile and I'd rather get a small hotfix or small patch with changes than wait awhile for a hero.

OH, BIG NOTE I JUST FOUND: You can't skeleton bomb normal rank skeletons!

 

[monoflauta]

Well, no problem. But please, why dont you like it?

its like a dota but i dont know, obviously its changed but i feel it like strange :S

 

[Mitchomitch]

Man, this is not like Dota -.- Why does everyone say, all AoS are like Dota?

1. Different Hereos!
2. Different Items!
3. CTF-System... where is something like this in Dota?
4. This map just rules ;D

BTW: Nice updates^^

 

[Zacharias]

The black golems that spawn [...]

Thx.

its like a dota but i dont know, obviously its changed but i feel it like strange :S

Well so tell me why is it strange? Please give input

Man, this is not like Dota -.- Why does everyone say, all AoS are like Dota?
1. Different Hereos!
2. Different Items!
3. CTF-System... where is something like this in Dota?
4. This map just rules ;D
BTW: Nice updates^^

Well don´t know, i guess because 90% load the map, see several vendors, a base and 3 lanes, which is obviously like dota.

 

[monoflauta]

for me its strange because the terrain in some parts doesnt have total sense, some structures are cools but others... i dont know, they arent so good, and i got others details that i didnt like, but your map is good dont worry

 

[Zacharias]

-I think tau's problem is just his VERY fast base attack speed. Agility items which give him +damage end up being really good cause he fires 4 times as fast. Normal heroes hit once with 10 agility for 100 damage. He hits 4 times with 10 agility for 60 damage each, so even his half base damage ends up being a lot more.

Hehe, you missed a part in your calculations. All boni on dmg and stats scale with the 60%. Even base damage, crits etc ;-)
It´s not the same as Firedragons 200% scaling ;-)

-Fire dragon's devour should be a % of life, or something. Maybe not since he'd have a LOT of life... maybe nothing, I dunno. I guess since creep's life will keep increasing that this ability will keep giving more life. Nevermind then.

It already scales (points). On % i would have to add a quadratic scaled value which would confuse anyone using it

for me its strange because the terrain in some parts doesnt have total sense, some structures are cools but others... i dont know, they arent so good, and i got others details that i didnt like, but your map is good dont worry

Well thats better, but i´m still missing the details. Which structures, which terrain parts? It really helps, cause i think you are not alone with your thoughts.
Big thx in advance.


Edit: Everything done so far, will test the map by my self a bit. Especially the Tau. Any more balancing ideas always welcome.
Next:

• further balancing
• get more testers
• improve terrain
• maybe improve loading screen
• fill both taverns with heros
• pass my exams in theoretical and atom- and all-solid physics
• attend my girlfriend

 

[Hashinshin]

Oh, well if tau is only doing 60% damage thats fine then. I was just guessing to myself.

Looking forward to the next version, and you getting time to attend to your girlfriend and exams.

I'm gonna keep trying the older heroes though, to make sure nobody ever becomes useless.

 

[Zacharias]

Gj gj hashinshin!
Well i think i found the ion beam bug, will check it tomorrow. Think it bugs when targeting a unit.

 

[zach_kirov]

nice aos, everything seems to be balanced. i like it.. i will try to find if there is any bugs

 

[Zacharias]

nice aos, everything seems to be balanced. i like it.. i will try to find if there is any bugs

Thx thx

I´ve uploaded a new version, mostly a balancing and fixing version.
I also remade the loading screen and mini map preview, hope you like it

 

[Hashinshin]

marine's barrel ability seems to be completely bugged out and doing absurd damage. Something like 600 a second. All you do is die. you just blow up. Kaboom.

I managed to bug out tau in a funky way. He lost that defensive stance ability completely. and went to -50 ammo before I died. Additionally, I think you should up tau's base damage about 10, keep all the other modifiers, just up base damage. It seems hes terribly weak in the start of the game. And yes, I'm very sure that tau is doing too little damage. Even 10 base damage might not be enough, I think him not having a real damage ability really trails off his damage. Ezekiel has his holy bolt, gnoll has his lightning spells, the tau has barely above average auto damage and then no real second ability damage.
-His ultimate seems incapable of hitting heroes. Can you increase the area of effect of the damage so it can hit heroes who are walking away from it ? Even heroes dead in the middle don't get hit it seems.
-Ok, if you get stunned while reloading and finish reloading while stunned he bugs out. I suggest you allow him to do defensive stance even if hes reloading, he needs the survivability increase anyway.

Skeleton bomb still doesn't work on normal skeletons.

Uh, are you sure you capped the bodies warlock can blow up ? If you are, perhaps reduce the damage maybe 25%. Hes still 1 shotting lots of people.

uhhhh swap tauren's pick up ability to 1.5 strength. For the king of melee he just seems to lose a lot in melee.

Paladin's heal should really scale.

The item with the stealth needs a limit of like 5-10 seconds in stealth. You are basically buying full stealth, which is very very bad for characters like warlock who can pull off ninja corpse explosions or something.

If I can be really honest, I just don't like the baby dragons from the fire dragon. It just doesn't fit in and leaves the character sort of lame. I'd much prefer it if he got an attack or something rather than the pets. I really want to like the fire dragon, but his only options are a big auto attack, and the pets. Just turned out rather boring with the pet ability.
-The playstyle of one of the strongest heroes with the biggest damage is sort of lost when you've got 5 baby dragons around you. Not only does the hero feel more of a pet hero, you miss out on a big cool ability. It goes from a badass dragon to just some sort of mother hen. I mean here you are controlling a bunch of baby dragons when you should be unleashing hellfire from the fire dragon!
-if I could be so bold, I'd suggest an ability that does a long fire breathe over a large area. Named something like "scorched earth" where the dragon for 10 seconds just torches AoE ~600 ish area.

I'd like to see chaos dragon reworked a little, I'm just thinking of how. Right now hes just a chaos and fire-helix machine. (Fire helix should scale off 1.5x strength BTW.) I'm thinking something like:
-Remove dark shell and instead add another over the top chaos dragon eske ability. I'm thinking something similar to dark shell but much more characterized by chaos dragon's style. I think an effect that you shoot the dark shell, but instead of doing just flat damage it does something much cooler. It puts a debuff on the enemy that lasts 3 seconds and after 3 shockings shoots them 400 AoE away from the chaos dragon. Sort of turning the enemy into a time bomb if you will.

Can you tune down black mage's single target stun ability's base damage but increase scaling ? That thing wreaks terror early game and can obliterate people very fast.

Nucular technition and warlock could really use a hot fix though. 1 shotting opponents leads to hate for the map. I'll just leave you at that then, since this ended up being longer than I thought it was gonna be Nice new graphics BTW. You've gotten several compliments on them.

 

[Psycho Ninja]

Master of the Void (new hero idea)

Don't hate me! but yea heres my second hero idea.
Just gonna say though, it was amazing that you got the tau and fire dragon up so quickly.
and with what hash just posted it seems like your gonna have a sum of work to do and i don't want to throw this at you like that.

Cause it kinda seems your juggling 4 bowling balls and I'm throwing in an anvil just for some spice

so yea take your time on this one, I'm not going anywhere soon

Master of the Void
~Can be either good or evil depending on The Model you decide to use

(By Ethereal I’m thinking Invulnerable to damage and has no collision)

Abilities:

-Banish (AOE, Sends enemies (possibly Allies too) into the “void” (or make them ethereal) and take damage on return.

-Void Shock (Sends Target into the “Void” and takes damage on return

-Push (Teleports target backwards (about the amount of blink) and takes
damage)

-Out of Reality (becomes ethereal for an amount of time)

- Step Through (Basically a Slow Blink) (can scale by increasing Distance and time)

{such as you use it, disappear then re appear at the selected location after like 3 seconds or so}

-Throw Rift (Fires a Slow moving Rift (portal looking object) That pulls units in as it moves [can also do damage]

-Void Expulsion (Opens a rift That Does Line Damage) [Or acts like a turret]

Ultimate Ideas:

-=Open Rift (Pulls in all surrounding units [strong pull] Then Launches Them forward (if possible Directed) doing damage and line Damage to anything that it hits.

-= A Void Dance (All heros on the map take damage)
(simulating the master teleporting to each one attacking.)

-= Void Clone (Creates A mirror image of all heros under their control that spawn near them, but also gives the master a Stronger clone or a version of himself with a few abilities

-= Void Clone (creates mirror images of all enemy heros under the master's control

Sorry i couldn't come up with more abilities but yea thats all i came up with

 

[Zacharias]

@Hashinshin:

• The Tau Ultimate is an AoE spell for masses of creeps, not single targets. It works fine for them. Invisible, Grenade to block spells and attack and a very high attack speed - that should be enought to blast heros away.
• I recognized the bugs at Tau, but cant find their source. I will rework the Camouflage, hope that helps.
• I think the Chaos dragon is good enought with his Dark Shell, wanna leave that as it is.
• The Firedragon need a little rework on its Summon ability, yes. But i don´t want to add another area-blast-ability, like Chaos Dragon, Firemage etc etc. Gunbarrel etc won´t fit to a Dragon. Still looking for good, fresh ideas.
• The rest seems ok, will implement them.

@Psycho_Ninja:
Got no problem with another hero suggestion

• Some abilities already on FEAR (partly) -> dont wanna have 2 similar heros
• Some abilities from DotA (Void Clone) -> i wont implement them, never ever
• But still some good ideas

 

[Psycho Ninja]

Hehe, didn't know about that dota hero. Never played and from what I've been told from hash, I don't really plan to =p

 

[Zacharias]

marine's barrel ability seems to be completely bugged out and doing absurd damage. Something like 600 a second. All you do is die. you just blow up. Kaboom.

Checked it, it does too much damage, but max 100/s. No bug found.

 

[aldwyn]

i played archangel or how it is named and when i cast holy bolt on target but it was already died when it hits him, and then the splash of balls still shows.

 

[Zacharias]

i played archangel or how it is named and when i cast holy bolt on target but it was already died when it hits him, and then the splash of balls still shows.

Ok thx, will fix that.

 

[Hashinshin]

Quick idea for an ability.

For 10 seconds whenever you are hit you teleport behind the target and do 100+0.5x agility. Call it battle frenzy or something. You'd still take full damage.

Dunno for what hero, just seemed cool for future ideas.

 

[Psycho Ninja]

Sounds ninja eske

Quick idea for an ability.

For 10 seconds whenever you are hit you teleport behind the target and do 100+0.5x agility. Call it battle frenzy or something. You'd still take full damage.

Dunno for what hero, just seemed cool for future ideas.

Sounds like a blade master or assassin ability

Assassin: just to giver her some extra spice out of stealth

Blade Master: seems related to his ultimate with the whole teleporting thing

Oh and can you give me specifics on which abilities you didn't like so much? theres a few of those i'd still like to use for other ideas =P