Kings and Knights α

[Lt_Hawkeye]

Nice, finally a more modern version of Kings and Knights.

 

[deepstrasz]

Could you please provide a link to the original map/template? I would like to see how much you have changed. Also, do you have permission to edit and upload their map? Did you try contacting them? Can you show that you actually tried?
Might this be the map?

Kings and Knights 3.2e - Warcraft 3 Maps - Epic War.com

Seems rather different.

 

[Gnuoy]

Ok I hope this isn't tl;dr but here are some of my thoughts on this:

That link you found is the template I used.

I wanted to contact them to see what their vision for the map was/is. However, I do not have permission because I have no idea how to contact those people. With that being said, the authors of e3.2 lack proper authority to authorize the use of this map - since they also plagiarized it from someone else.

For example EpicKiD's "Kings and Knights 1.5" (2009) has the exact same terrain and without a doubt Rolphoe and DjolePro01 plagarized from EpicKiD. Guntank01's "Kings and Knights Final" (2009) seems to be another candidate. Rolphoe and DjolePro01 wiped Guntank01's name from the map but they were sloppy because Guntank01 left notes in the quest triggers - evidence that e3.2 is plagiarized from Guntank01. Still Guntank01's iteration gives indication that his iteration is also plagarized. There are numerous other examples. There seems to be some common "ancestor" map that everyone seemed to plagiarize without citation but I am unable to make a definite determination. So it's unclear if it is even proper to credit Relphoe and DjolePro01. It seems they just took someone else's map and broke the balance and added exploits, which I reversed and removed any cheats/exploits. It's kind of a confusing mess on who deserves credit so I just tried to be as transparent as possible.

Still the iteration I posted has been dramatically overhauled from any other version with 100s of hours put into it, I would say about 99% of it is my work - 1200+ triggers, 100s of custom assets from Hive, the techtree, basic AI scripts implemented, other concepts imagined by players and implemented by myself. So I am comfortable listing myself as the author but I still give anyone else I know credit, even list original concept creator as "unknown" on the loading screen. Although it's not plagiarism, the concept dates back to brood war.

My intent was not to steal their credit nor ruin anyone's map. That's why I tried to be as transparent as possible. If I had ill intent, I would have hidden the fact that I used a template. I tried to credit everyone and create a fun and fair version of Kings and Knights.

With all that being said, I don't know how to make this situation right. The best I can do is explain the situation. I do not think banning my iteration would make the situation any better. If we go by date, it seems EpicKiD or Raffles is the rightful author but it's still unclear.

Spoiler: examples (1)

Spoiler: examples (2)

 

[deepstrasz]

Ok I hope this isn't tl;dr but here are some of my thoughts on this:

Alrighty, if your map is that much different, more akin to a remake than an edit, then crediting the people for the original idea is what you should do, otherwise, it would be a good idea to try contacting them, at least those that have an account here or somewhere (and provide evidence you tried).

Alright but can you show evidence you tried contacting them before you started or even uploaded the map?

 

[Gnuoy]

1) credit has been given on this map thread and the loading screen of this map.
2) it's not right to ask people who also stole the map if i can remake their already stolen map.
3) i messaged everyone who stole the map in hopes one of them is the original author:

Spoiler: contact attempts

1) Rolphoe - contacted July 13 2022, also plagiarized from GunTank01's version
2) DjolePro01 - unable to contact, no Hive account, also plagiarized GunTank01's version
3) Raffles - unable to contact, no Hive account (one of the earliest found authors)
4) GunTank01 / GunTank02 - unable to contact, no Hive account, evidence that it was plagiarized from Terrelle.Pryor's iteration
5) EpicKiDd / EpicKiDd - contacted July 13 2022, also plagiarized from other iteration, posted on Hive, no proper credit given
6) GoDFaTHER - contacted July 13 2022, also plagiarized from other iteration
7) Terrelle.Pryor - unable to contact, no Hive account
8) MOTH-Destroyer - unable to contact, no Hive account (one of the earliest found authors)
9) iou2game - unable to contact, no Hive account
10) kulos1994 - unable to contact, no Hive account
11) Ravel - unable to contact, no Hive account
12) Tree - contacted July 13, 2022
13) Emovampire - unable to contact, no Hive account
14) NoName - contacted July 13, 2022
15) Seurimas - contacted July 13, 2022
16) Nets8 - unable to contact, no Hive account
17) lerriuqSterceS - unable to contact, no Hive account

i don't mean to be argumentative but i feel like you are not understanding what i'm trying to say. please re-read my previous posts. i'll try to explain it a third time:

1) to answer your question no, because i wasn't sure how to contact them.
2) i don't understand why it matters so much that i contacted "them" because they also stole the map, which has been explained in detail in the previous posts. So I really don't understand why it matters so much. Yes if I could contact the original author to seek his permission it'd be great but i have no idea who that is.

just delete the map at this point, i'm beyond caring about if it's on here or not. Hive's loss.

 

[deepstrasz]

Some heroes have the same abilities (like auras) which makes them useless together.
Generally, normal Warcraft III spells and techtrees.
Anime Witch has hero glow. It looks bad since heroes are supposed to have that. Also, usually models with hero glow don't have decay animations and their bodies remain on the ground.

Generally seems like a nice multiplayer map but pretty chaotic in design.

Approved.

 

[wangjievibeke]

Is there a discord channel?

 

[Gnuoy]

Some heroes have the same abilities (like auras) which makes them useless together.

Thank you for the feedback. I'm still polishing some of that. I admit I'm not super good at making heroes.

Is there a discord channel?

Yes it's in the map description: Join the Kings and Knights Discord Server!

 

[deepstrasz]

I'm still polishing some of that.

One thing you might want to consider for future updates is diversifying the king armies so they won't be too similar. You could play some altered melee maps and get some ideas. However, I understand the mirror aspect is a balance safety measure but knights are not the same.

 

[Gnuoy]

Totally agree. I think there’s a lot of potential for altered melee applications for king tech tree. Perhaps even different races. I’m a bit burnt out at the moment tho.

 

[Gnuoy]

Sorry to players: some players are reporting game crashes in this version. I haven't received detailed info. Unfortunately I am too busy IRL to debug or even verify if the crash reports are true. If true, IDK if it's related to 1.33 or some mistake we made earlier, which was lurking in some trigger. If anyone has found any problems like this or wants earlier versions to test, please let me know. Thanks everyone and sorry if you experience a crash.

Update: I just played a game on battle.net with about 7 players and there were no fatal errors, one person d/c'd but that might have been his individual internet problem.

Update 2: late version of the map seem stable and not causing crashes.

 

[eledrion]

A good remake of the original map, but here are some of my main concerns:
1. When I played, someone was able to get to level 38 at 15 minutes while the rest were level 10-14 and he just killed everyone without saying how. I'm not sure if it's some form of meta in the game, but it seems way imbalanced
2. The range of battleships reach the castle, which is a huge issue. You could be attacked from sea while dealing with another player and before you know, you were killed off the game, so might wanna reduce their range
3. Some heroes share the same ability, there needs to be a uniqueness of abilities on heroes, so in my opinion, maybe spice it up a bit
4. Invul putions need a huge nerf, 7 and 25 seconds of invulnerability is enough to kill 3 knights or even a castle
5. The god of destruction, I'm not sure what his use is aside from killing off middle, but other than that, he has no use since his stats and speed doesn't do anything later in the game
6. Also, tried to ask the people who usually play this map, only response I got were git gud or none at all, doesn't seem like a friendly community, so it's up to the new players how to fend for themselves, this is how you scare off new players from playing this map

 

[Gnuoy]

A good remake of the original map, but here are some of my main concerns:

Thank you for sharing and taking the time to give me some feedback. The map is still being updated. Your continued feedback would be helpful in Discord: Join the Kings and Knights Discord Server!

tl;dr your review is valid overall but we are working on it.

• You predicted the future with points 1, 2, 4 - addressed in recent updates (xp tomes, ship range, invul pots).
• 3 is a totally valid point. but this is pretty much the best I can do without more specific guidance from players.
• god of destruction is supposed to be more just a fun thing and not really a viable strategy. worried if it was any stronger then the best strategy would simply be the first to summon it wins.
• Point 6 is also a concern of mine. My main goal is to be welcoming to new players and build the player base. Although I cannot moderate the behavior of players in every lobby, we do have a moderated discord with basic guides and a lot of players including my self are willing to help. Still - I am aware of some players thrashing noobs and have messaged a few specific players about this. Some players have become perhaps a bit too competitive since the leaderboard has been implemented (https://wc3stats.com/kings-and-knights/leaderboard) but I tell them to label the lobbies accordingly if they want a competitive game. On the other hand, they discover some broken mechanics that can help balance the map in the long run.

 

[Gnuoy]

I wanted to post some "game guides" that players wrote here:

Spoiler: Basic Mechanics Guide

ITEM CRAFTING/RECIPES
KINGDOM ARTIFACTS (5 maximum per game)Red/North: 20 Artifact Shards/Midnight Ankhs + Royal Orb of FireBlue/East: 20 Artifact Shards/Midnight Ankhs + Royal Orb of WaterTeal/South: 20 Artifact Shards/Midnight Ankhs + Royal Orb of WindPurple/West: 20 Artifact Shards/Midnight Ankhs + Royal Orb of IceBlack Artifact: 2 Black Spell Glyphs + Black OrbBlack Glyph: 20 Artifact Shards/Ankhs + Black Orb. (edited)

CREEP ITEMS (15+ per game)Each drops of a pre-set creep with a 100% drop chance, except for the Paladin's Gavel, which has a 1% drop chance off most mobs. So each game is guaranteed 15 Creep Items but maybe 16, 17, 18 rarely more Creep items per game, depending on how many Gavels drop. Creep Items drop at Uncommon/Green quality.Creep Items can be upgraded with an Magic Uncommon Item Upgrade Scroll, which can be purchased at a King Tome Libraries, found at the back of kings' bases, for 2000 gold. This upgrade the Creep Item to Rare/Blue quality, Magic Uncommon Upgrade Scrolls can also be found from most creeps at a 1% chance drop rate.To upgrade Rare/Blue Creep Items to Epic/Purple quality, purchase a Magic Rare Item Upgrade Scroll found at King Tome Libraries or the Wizard Vendor near the middle of the map.RARE BLACK ITEMSBlack Halberds and Black Shields are similar to Creep Items as they can be upgraded to Epic/Purple Quality. These are dropped from Black Night NPCs and sold at Black Altars.

GEM ARTIFACTS
These are created by having at least 3 Epic Creep Items (NOT Black Epics or Royal Epics, only the 16 Creep Items mentioned above), a Royal Orb, and an Epic Disenchanting Rod (sold at King Tome Libraries and dropped from some rare Creeps). Approach the Orb Forge near the middle of the map, up the hill, behind the demonic gate with ALL 5 items in your heroes inventory to complete the Gem Crafting Recipe. It will destroy the 3 Epic Creep Items and the Royal Orb in the process. The color of the gem created depends on the type of Royal Orb used.If your hero gets 1 of each color of the 4 gems in the same inventory, they will combine into a shield that has equal stats to 4 gems.ELEMENTAL BOSS ITEMSThere are 4 bosses on the map, behind the gates/portals. The portals are opened with Royal Orbs corresponding to the color or a Rainbow Key. Each one of these bosses drops a very powerful item.ARTIFACTS ContinuedIf your hero gets 4 of any Royal Artifacts (the ones made with Shards/Ankhs), including the Black Artifact, they will combine into a Sword when placed with a Royal Orb.If you combine the Sword with all 4 of the Elemental Boss Items, it will create the single most powerful item on the map.DIVINE MOON OBEJCTSThere is a Moon Dagger and Moon Mirror that spawn in 4 and 6 random locations each game respectively. You can combine these 2 with the Moon Gem, which is given to a random king at start of game, and it will create the Divine Moon Objects. When the Divine Moon Objects come close to a royal Queen, it summons the God of Destruction under the player's control.

Black Knight Roaming Hours
the northeast BK runs mid at 1:00 and returns at 5:00the northwest BK runs mid at 7:00 and returns at 11:00the southwest BK runs mid at 13:00 and returns at 17:00the southeast BK runs mid at 19:00 and returns at 23:00

player desync at start
It's recommended that you restart wc3 before playing this map if you played any other maps in the same session that wc3 was open. This clears your gameplay constant cache, eliminating the chance of desyncs at start.

Pirate Knight's Pirate Ship
Pirate Knights start out with "pirate flag" item that summons ship for them. The item only summons a ship if they currently do not have an active one and if they summon it in water. The pirate ship can upgrade itself up to 100 times, but it can only upgrade to the level of the pirate. So if the pirate hero is lv 26, the ship can only go 26/100.If the ship gets destroyed the upgrades get set back to 0/100 on the next ship, which can be acquired by hiring a dockhand from any shipyard, build a pirate shipyard that sells pirate flags. The pirate's shipyard also contains upgrades however they are the same ones that the pirate ship can research on its own for free. The upgrades at the shipyard are extremely overpriced.

Spoiler: Bath's Strategy Guide

If you are completely new to this map, or have just played one or two games, it is recommended that you determine first your preferred playstyle to establish which part of Kings and Knights you'd be like most. If you are more into Macro than Micro, than you'll like King more. If you are more into Micro than Macro, than you'll like Knights more.
Guide - Table of Contents:
1) Knights - Misc Info
2) Black Knights
3) Kings
a) Establishing Kingdom
b) Hero Managment
c) Unit Options
d) General Strategy
e) Back Door Prevention

1) Knights Level cap is 100. There are many things to explore! Interacting with other knights, as well as learning how to interact with kings and the many, many different strategies players can do as knights is lots of fun! Some knights have unique mobility (can swim, fly, blink) while others have scaling damage abilities. Probably the hardest part about being a knight is balancing your desire to win with the desire to have a challenging game. The two main choices a Knight makes:
1) which Knight hero to choose and
2) which King to join.
Three challenges of joining king:
1 - Join a weaker king and risk getting annoyed at other knights for joining a stronger king who would win without their help.
2 - Join a stronger king expecting to win, and the king either under performs or gets backdoored.
3 - Everyone joins the stronger king and it ends up too easy. Challenge with pick: You pick a weaker knight when you know other knights are stronger because the OP knights are easy to harass with or back door with, and you may resent the choice.

2) Black Knights If you die as BK without Midknight ankhs, or regular ankhs, you lose. As well, if your Altar is destroyed, you also lose.It's best to have a good understanding of where all the items, merc camps, shops, black tents are, and the general lay of the land. Also good to explore the full tech tree, all the items (craftable and purchasable), all their associated gold costs to buy and sell and mana costs to use, as well as the secret of where the Hell portal goes (you can find out quickly on single player with the Hell Rune bought at the Spider shop, and the ISeeDeadPeople cheat), the challenge with fighting in hell, fighting Satan, Summoning Satan, Heaven, all the Elementals and Old gods and how to go to each, prior to trying this on multiplayer
Also the utility of Black Ankhs and using them to farm gold by buying Black Orbs, the strength of Black Knight Dreadnoughts. Basically everything you can find out on single player, so you don't walk away sour about dying because you didn't realize that losing your Main Altar is a loss condition for BK, and you didn't know Dislocate Altar has a CD of like 10 minutes. Black Knights enjoy the benefits of having a greater Exp Gain (200%) and a complex tech tree with neat tooltips to keep things interesting.

3) Kings
a) Establishing kingdom:
Move all peasants to lumber. You start with 20,000 gold, 0 lumber, so lumber is your rate determining resource for tech early game. Train princess and kingTrain peasants non-stop until you have about 40 peasants on lumber and all your goldmines are saturated with workers. Consider building a lumber mill between your castle and your altar for quick access to peasants for repairing the castle. Consider rushing BK camps with Crusaders at start with starting army.Move Horse from Merc camp by altar up to King's Altar to purchase leveling scrolls.Speed build one town halls by each lower goldmine - after done, path peasants to lumber.Build 8 farms - upgrade all but one twice, upgrade the last one all the way.Build all tier one structures and get all upgrades:3 lumber mills, 2 blacksmith, 1 barracks, 1 shop, 2-3 tower of wizardry, 2 church, however many garrisons depending on what you are doing. Make sure to upgrade Masonry As soon as you are done level 2 Farm and Blacksmith, train 4 Royal Engineers. Have one start a Factory, one start a Royal Merchant, and the other two either help build the factory or build some curtesy Healing Wells. When Royal Merchant is done build a Shipyard and train a crew. When Factory is done, build 1 - 2 Royal DOTA Research Centers, and fully upgrade lane waves. Upgrade Gyrations. Make four Tier 3 workers in case you want tier 3 mech or cannons towers. Continue to get lane upgrades and masonry upgrades. If not already done, work on expanding to Islands behind Kings base, and goldmines at adjacent Black Knight camps. Consider filling Castle with Ankhs if possible. Consider building 8+ towers (Arcane or Cannon or a combination) around Castle. Ensure you have 6+ production buildings of the type needed for your intended army.

b) Hero Managment
Pair your king with your princess hero and consolidate all your items. Make sure Boots of Speed is on King. Consider having Spell Book, Amulet of Spell Shield, Town portal Scrolls, Healing potions, Mana potions, and/or ankhs on King and Princess, in addition to Boots of Speed, depending on available funds. Level your king in the fastest way possible, as very late game King will be highest damage dealer with most HP. Possible Options for leveling: creep Islands, creep Hell, attack opponentsc) Unit optionsIn terms of units, Crusaders and Squires get mowed down by AoE due to low HP. No low tier Garrison units are worth making as stronger versions of them exist in the Garrison. With the exception of Rogues and Ninjas, no higher tiered Garrison units are worth making due to them being either expensive, slow, low dps, high food cost, or any combination thereof. Ninjas and Rogues are good as long as there is no good AoE knights, or no kings are focusing them with seige or AoE of any other kind. So mid to early game they are strong. Late game they are only good for managing lane spawns. Church units are good, but mid to late game only Royal Bishops are useful, due to their Magic Immunity. The same goes for all Wizards Sanctum units - though wizards have good DPS at tier 3, only Royal Magus have Magic Immunity and can survive late game. The same is true for all units trained at Royal Stables. Due to the high magic damage from Knights and Kings in the later game, no Royal Stables units are useful late game. Royal Knights are good early/mid game for their ability to ensnare kiting Knights Heroes. Big Berthas are good DPS but are glass cannons. Royal Tanks are only good when fight is at enemy castle.

d) General Strategy
Early game is about expanding to establish a high income, clearing nearby targets of opportunity (BK camps and adjacent creep camps), getting levels on your secondary hero for the mobility of Mass Teleport, upgrading lane units and related upgrades, increasing Castle's durability, and managing items so your heroes have more utility. There are many ways to win.Pre-Gyrations rushing with mass squires or crusaders is a poor idea as that will just feed the enemy king with little exp gain to your own king.Having lane spawns researched can keep enemy knights busy with lane spawns, or cause the enemy king to have to focus on defense, if the defending King has not been keeping up on their upgrades. The mass and rush strategy for units at nearly any level is viable as long as it's accompanied by your king, as not having your king would put your army at a large disadvantage. The experience gained by the king increases his stats dramatically. Since Gyrations is a mid-to-late-game research, the units you'll be attacking with would be best to either be mid or late game units. Any rush can work depending on your opponent, their knights, and your knights. Due to all the variables, an attacking King with a particularly strong army vs a King with no army, tower, or upgrades might still be repelled if the knights on the defending King's team are sufficiently strong.The strongest army at this time (to the best of my knowledge) is a King and a Princess with massed Royal Magus. This is due to the Magus's Survivability, high damage, high range, and powerful anti-hero spells (Silence and Slow). As there are 4 King's in total, the attacking King should consider who their opponent is and what position they leave themselves in if they attack. So typically it's better to establish a strong base before moving out, to establish a strong fallback if you get attacked while attacking another player.

e) Back Door Prevention
AFTER BACK ISLANDS ARE ESTABLISHED, BLOCK BACK PATH. You can do this with either one row or two rows of Farms. Farms upgraded to tier 3 have a great deal of health and armor. Ideally build one row of Farms protecting the guard tower at the back, and a second row of Farms at the top of the ramp. The reason for this is because ships will have vision of the bottom row of Farms, but not the top. Ships will also have to get fairly close to the bay to attack the top row of Farms, so you can have your king or ranged units to counter this. This prevents random ships from landing in your back entrance and running units up to mass teleport to. It prevents Naga from swimming in and attacking your Castle. As all the lane spawns attack out the front and the vision out the front is much greater than out the back, kings cannot easily run units in to Mass TP to. It is also recommended you build Anti-air towers from the Royal Engineers to deal with Druid in bird form or possible air drops. Build a couple zeppelins to provide vision above trees. Anti-air towers have 1800 range, so you don't need many of them, but they are the only tower that does not cost food. They are 120 Gold/60 Lumber. Four at each goldmine along the trees, behind castle, on outcropping by Kings Altar will deter air drops or Druid Bird harass. If Knights ask to access back gate, recommend they find another bay. All kingdoms have relatively easy access to water. The Capital Ship needs to be researched from the shipyard to be useable. As shipyards have a long cool down at the start, which is longer then the time it takes to get the main ship useable, it is strongly recommended to tech fast to have your Royal Dreadnaught become available. You may then use this to suppress the enemy king, if they are behind.

 

[Gnuoy]

UPDATE: fixed minor portrait bug created by Reforged 2.0 patch.

 

[Marunia]

Bro... I used to play this map all the way back in Starcraft 1, loved it. You hit me right in the feels, awakened tons of nostalgia. Thank you!

 

[Gnuoy]

Yes same. It was actually the memory of the SC1 map that made me search for a WC3 version!

 

[Marunia]

Cheers bro, thank you Will be testing this on b.net, I saw some people hosting lately. Let me know if you need any testers etc.

 

[Gnuoy]

Yes always. Feel free to report any bugs or suggestions here in the comments or on Discord: Join the Kings and Knights Discord Server!.