Item recipes or no recipes ?

[Krakenn99]

You all know what item recipes are right? If no then go play a dota match and come back. Recently I had a discussion with a random guy if item recipes are good? He said that most of the time they are either too complex or it takes too much time to find all of the items. I agreed with him, I've played many maps where there are no recipes and I have to admit that the gameplay is a lot faster and a lot of confusion is spared. Tell me your thoughts and opinions, are maps better with recipes or not?

 

[PublishedShadow]

Depends. For games like Island Troll tribes, yes absolutely item recipes are fantastic. Some games' core feature is around crafting so yeah you need a good recipe system.

For other types of games like hero arena's, really the only things you need are like "A + A =AA (Stacking) or "A+B = C" (More Powerful Combination), otherwise things may get too convoluted, like you mention.

 

[Rilene]

Survival simulation map definitely needs a recipe.

But Hero Arena or Siege can have recipes, but not too complex.

 

[Krakenn99]

Will it be considered generic or copying if a hero arena or siege have recipes?

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Will it be considered generic or copying if a hero arena or siege have recipes?

As opposed to what? It really depends on the content of the items and the recipes. There have been plenty of arena & siege maps with or without recipes. So either way can be generic or unique depending on the content of the items.

~A map moderator

 

[Krakenn99]

As opposed to what? It really depends on the content of the items and the recipes. There have been plenty of arena & siege maps with or without recipes. So either way can be generic or unique depending on the content of the items.

~A map moderator

I'm saying as the general idea of recipes.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

I'm saying as the general idea of recipes.

My answer was it depends. The idea of recipes in an arena or "siege" map / video game is not unique at all but can easily be unique or copying depending on the item content. People won't care if having or not having recipes is unique, it's if they make the gameplay better.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Depends on implementation.

Crafting can be fun (minecraft) or super annoying (DOTA). It all depends on what the game focus is and how you implement your crafting system.

Unfortunately, I consider myself a failure when it comes to design crafting systems, so I can't give you any recommendations here. I'd say take a look on actual games that have a good crafting system (and no, WoW is not one of those) and try to analyze how these games succeeded to make crafting engaging. Then try to capture that magic.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Oh well, both are liked/disliked by people. Some consider recipes as too complicated and contorted while others think that it's a good idea to provide more combos and synergies with heroes. Based on the context, you can decide whether or not implementing such systems. If you have lots of heroes and the game lasts +30 minutes, I'd say make recipes because the items you initially bought can be combined into stronger ones without the need of selling then buying.
If you should ever make a recipe system, be sure you do not overdo and create super-intricate systems that might discourage first-time players. Keep it simple.

~ Another map moderator

 

[Krakenn99]

Every item is made by 2 other items + recipe. It can't go any more simple I think

 

[Orcnet]

Mechanism takes too much stuff just for a cheap heal, Skadi is too damn expensive just for the slow effect, and again expensive recipes just to fill in late game. (DotA)

As to my part, I'd rather tackle less recipe and more no-recipe items. This depends on any map genre you plan to implement based on the maps I tested similar to AoS or any.

 

[Winimasker]

In my opinion, it depends on how you set the recipe systems.
- - - - - - -
I think maybe there are many ways to make a combined item formula.

In my opinion, a combined item can also be made in this way.
Here is one of my thoughts on combined items formulas, you kill a monster which gives you a chance to get items (just like in any online monster farming games, can be a skill book, equipment, etc.). Then, you upgrade them by using your certain amount of power points. (In my opinion, a recipe no needs to be just combined by using at least two items and one recipe.)

If you combine an already upgraded item with a non-upgrading item by mixing them with a gem or a recipe (or maybe they are not needed), then the result will be a much more stronger version of combined item. If you combine two non-upgrading items, then the result will be a weak combined item.

Maybe it is quiet complicated but it should bring in a more challenging game-play. (My imagination is that if DotA includes this feature, then... As a DotA player, you not only need to think of enemies' locations, types of skills and items but you also need to think of their upgraded skills, upgraded items, upgraded combined items or even more of them. I can see that there are no dropped items when a monster is killed in DotA. What's the point for you to kill monsters? Just for golds? Nothing more specials?)

You can even combine any item with an enhanced gem to add more special attributes to it. More of them...!

That is one part on what I think. It depends...

 

[GreeN!X]

Honestly, if you feed a lot or just farm really really slowly, you're definitely going to have to make your items piece by piece.

If I were to pick between a recipe map vs a non-recipe map, i'm gonna pick the former. I doubt saving up 5875 gold for an item in one go is better than saving 3200 then 1800 then 875 for each component. You get partial benefit of the item even before you had it if you buy the components.

Ofc, if it's like those map that drop gazillions of gold per creep, then non-recipe items is the right choice.

 

[pick-a-chew]

In the case of DotA, recipes help keep low level items relevant throughout all stages of the game. If you have a map that has a relatively low number of items, then there's not really a need for recipes. From a design point, if 75% of your items are obsolete late game, then you're being wasteful (and putting pressure on players to figure out if an item is good or not).

However if you have a lot of items (e.g. RPGs) then suddenly recipes become a nice way to turn those slippers of agility into something a lot more sexy. Assuming your recipe system is comprehensive and accessible.

 

[Krakenn99]

I just made a great fucking recipe system where you can either buy an item with a recipe or if you have the gold you can buy it immediately without using a recipe. How's that?

 

[Empirean]

personally i dont like item recipes mainly because if you are looking for an item that enhances agility you will have to buy all other items that u dont need to have a very high agility. its time consuming to find the item and hard for beginners to play the map.

 

[Jaina Proudless]

I think I was that guy you had a conversation with.

My point was mainly in regards to the hero arena/moba type maps where you battle other players to the death. Item recipes create an additional entry barrier for new players who have to learn the advantages and disadvantages of certain build paths of synergies with spells/stats, prices for going back etc.

I play a lot of League of Legends and I find that people who do not know how to use item knowledge correctly get disadvantaged greatly. They follow conventional build paths even when it is so obvious that taking one particular item (banner of command against 5 heimdingers in one for all) would guarantee victory.

There are countless mobas out there and forcing me to learn a lot of stuff to be competitive in a minor moba map is a big turn off for me.