Inactivity

[Shadow Fury]

This problem really concerns and perturbs me daily. Over half of the members are inactive and do not review maps. A few are even inactive from years, not only weeks or months, YEARS! I'm starting to feel that this group is no more that prestigous as it was long ago and that we map reviewers are not doing our job well. We said "We'll cleanse the Pending Maps Section" and now we just accumulated two damn pages full of pending maps (soon they'll be 3 if we go on like that). What's happening guys? From a few months, it was merely one page. In addition, I'm starting to notice that people outside this group are more active (though not more professional) than we map reviewers. Something must be done because we cannot go on like that. Now I simply have one question:

Is our ambition of cleansing the Pending Maps Section just a vague dream or something we want to make true?

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Message to everyone: Please don't be afraid of a message of this size. It contains valuable information

Old Members

I don't think it would be right to kick out the old inactive users. They are to be recognized as veterans before I became maintainer as shown clearly in the Map Reviewers -> Alive once again discussion.

Here is the specific quote from that discussion showing the emphasis on recognizing years old reviewers:

Right now this group has 2 kind of users
- Active users (New ones, and that is nice to see)
- Passive users (Map section legends)

I would like to keep this order as it is.
New users should be the ones to keep map section healthy and work out on their fame and glory, reaching that legendary place among our legends.
Also I would like to see legends here as well, supporting and giving critics to new comers.

The Map Reviewer Members Reputation discussion is another example of how old users are represented.

I think they should stay, especially since it's one of -Kobas-'s last wishes for the group. After all, they helped shape our current map section to not be so horrid. Before, the pending section reached more than 900 maps.

Pending Pages

Well, I was half active for the past two weeks and Orcnet was inactive for the past month. I'm back to full activity, so the pending section should drop again.

As most would observe, the map pending section is faring a lot better than... ever? The map section has not exceeded two pages since November. Thank you Shar Dundred for applauding my efforts, I really appreciate it. It was tough taking down +70 maps with more flooding in almost every day. But it really isn't all me. Honestly, I don't think I'm the biggest factor in why the pending section is healthy. Ever since I revived this place, reviewing became 'cool' again. When something looks desirable, reviewing in this case, people want to be a part of it too. Bam, we have our selves many reviews being posted now.

The bottom line is the new members are active enough that they are making a difference.

"The New Map Reviewers Group"

I'm starting to feel that this group is no more that prestigous as it was long ago and that we map reviewers are not doing our job well. We said "We'll cleanse the Pending Maps Section" and now we just accumulated two damn pages full of pending maps (soon they'll be 3 if we go on like that).

How is the group not prestigious anymore? I think the 2015 era has been very successful so far. We might be the second most active group at the moment. About people doing their jobs, perhaps I'll find more ways to encourage people, but as Shar Dundred stated, people get busy. I don't think only pros should be in this group. Intermediate reviewers in the group can use this place as a place to learn and ask questions. That equates to having more reviewers and more reviews. It benefits the group's activity and helps with the decade long war in the pending section.

Outsiders

In addition, I'm starting to notice that people outside this group are more active (though not more professional) than we map reviewers. Something must be done because we cannot go on like that. Now I simply have one question:

Hmm, this is interesting. Could you give more specific examples and scenerios? Why can't we go on like this?

----

I do appreciate you sharing your concerns with the rest of us, but for now I believe that these concerns aren't issues.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Shar, I am not forcing you guys to review everyday even if you don't want (of course everyone has his life to live and I've had some days/weeks of inactivity). My concern is that there are 29 members and few reviews coming out. I expected something like "Today these guys are inactive but these guys are active" so that we could obtain an overall balance between activity and inactivity. Then, most of the maps have just been left as they are, neither voted for Needs Fix, nor for rejection, or just unreviewed. Look at the pending maps and you'll find this out.

StoPCampinGn00b, I never mentioned to kick old members ( I never even mentioned the word "kick") as I know they played a big role in this site. I don't even want you to kick intermediate members (absolutely no man!) What I mean is that if we have already inactive members, then we should try to be more active (once again, I am NOT forcing anyone to review if he doesn't want to). Examples of people more active than map reviewers are: Shadow Flux (latent heat), Archimonde Supreme, Justas.

Well, we have to prove that we are a prestigous and active group. As long as the pending maps do not decrease below 7, I'll not feel satisfied. We by ourselves said that we'll do it together, that's why I'm pretty disappointed of what's happening.

 

[Shadow Fury]

I never saw a full review from AS but at least he's pretty active. However, I don't think he'll be able to enter this group.

You know Shar, I was like you when Daffa told me "You should join the Map Reviewers", saying "Really? Me?" At that time, we were about 15 members if I am correct and I really felt that I was in a prestigous group of high rank but now, I dont know, I do not feel any more this. I remember the days when Hell Master wasn't still a moderator but simply a map reviewer and I noticed how he was respected by other users (as well as the other map reviewers). Now, I don't see such a thing with we map reviewers of nowadays. We are treated like anyone else, as if "Map Reviewer" means "Registered User".

 

[Chaosy]

I consider map reviewing a hobby and not a job. Therefore I am active when I feel like it. Make me a map mod and it's a different story.

So yeah, it's a dream I want to make true if anything.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

SF, I assumed you are suggesting to kick veterans due to your tone as if you wanted me to do something about their inactiveness. I already messaged every single reviewer about the group being revived, and I don't think any veteran member reviewed a map and or posted in the group. Unless

What exactly do you want me to do with the non veteran inactive members inactive members? I can send another round of messages to everybody in the group (I've done so twice so far), but that could be seen as demanding. Then what? Send another round every two or three months? This is why I'm recruiting. So the activity continues to be stable and or soar.

About the prestigue:
I don't feel like this group is not prestigous enough. When I was asked to join, I was first like: "Whaaaaaaaat?" since I held (and still hold) respect for Hive's professional map reviewers who keep the map section clean even though there have been maps approved I wouldn't have approved but that's a personal referance and such.

I don't think prestigue is a word in English. Perhaps you guys mean prestige?

Anyway, why is prestige a high priority for you two? I believe the main priorities of this group are equally maintaining its activity and keeping the pending section low. Other priorities include helping other reviewers get better and announcing notable changes map pending section wise.

Now, I don't see such a thing with we map reviewers of nowadays. We are treated like anyone else, as if "Map Reviewer" means "Registered User".

Why does this matter? You shouldn't show everybody you're in the group to prove to everyone that you're a skilled reviewer. You show the skill, and people will treat you as such.

I haven't witnessed this 'change' either.

Checkmate? Y / N

 

[Daffa]

I remember the days when Hell Master wasn't still a moderator but simply a map reviewer and I noticed how he was respected by other users (as well as the other map reviewers). Now, I don't see such a thing with we map reviewers of nowadays. We are treated like anyone else, as if "Map Reviewer" means "Registered User".

Well, about that old days. I think it's not over yet, but we're just getting started. Honestly, I miss the old reviewing system, since that one features a sort of logo which makes people consider us 'official' reviewers. Maybe make a logo/banner for our reviews?

Is our ambition of cleansing the Pending Maps Section just a vague dream or something we want to make true?

It's a reality we after. I just want everyone here to know that Orcnet cleans Map Section once on 2013/2014, and Vengeancekael also did the same when he was promoted. I'll try to search about these later, I recall I talk about it with Orcy.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Again, I am not saying we should kick the veterans. I was just saying that if already some members of the group are permanently inactive, then we should try to be more active.

Talking about that prestige thing, we should let people feel that entering this group is a "privilage". The fact that the group is prestigous or not is not something that torments me on an emotional level. If we are not seen as a prestigous group, then we won't attract a lot of professional map reviewers in here. They must see "Map Reviewer" as a higher rank than "Common User" so that they are motivated to give it a go and start reviewing. I don't want to find reviews only from this group but also from normal users.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

Well, about that old days. I think it's not over yet, but we're just getting started. Honestly, I miss the old reviewing system, since that one features a sort of logo which makes people consider us 'official' reviewers. Maybe make a logo/banner for our reviews?

I only recall seeing you, Hell_Master, and -Kobas- using it for a few months. It just... died off because it required extra work along with the elimination of personal preference in reviewing. Anyway, Mythic was our art / media propaganda leader, but he's inactive. Should a new badge / siggy be created? An Official Map Reviewer one? I have an idea to make it so a every reviewer should contain the image somewhere on the review, but that's something to discuss for another thread.

I was just saying that if already some members of the group are permanently inactive, then we should try to be more active.

Well, isn't that usually the case? I need to know how we can make people inactive if this is a problem that harms the group or map section.

Talking about that prestige thing, we should let people feel that entering this group is a "privilage". The fact that the group is prestigous or not is not something that torments me on an emotional level. If we are not seen as a prestigous group, then we won't attract a lot of professional map reviewers in here. They must see "Map Reviewer" as a higher rank than "Common User" so that they are motivated to give it a go and start reviewing. I don't want to find reviews only from this group but also from normal users.

It is a privilege to be here. There are other users who simply aren't fit the group (yet?) that review. Time to give specific examples.

Archimonde Supreme, leventopuolo, Rex., Dat-C3, Mechanical Man, Lord DZ are to name a few that are good but barely review or not good enough. Rheiko, twilight, abgm, PKcrafty, Filmting, and Theodon of Kome were also reviewers not in the group active not too long ago due to them being below-average to average. They are now inactive. None of them are in the recruitment stage at the moment.

My point is, I'm not bringing everyone in. I'm bringing in at the time active and at least average reviewers. When I was accepted, I really would consider my self far below average.

"If we are not seen as a prestigous group, then we won't attract a lot of professional map reviewers in here."

This makes no sense. A group with varying skill levels would allow the 'new pro' to be one of the leaders for the reviewers which can be attractive.

 

[Daffa]

Something just struck my mind, though it's ridiculous and people surely might try to slap me in my face.

How bout we run a contest of reviewing for the reviewers? Perhaps not by just quantity, but quantity + quality (if we use quantity, then I fear too much junk reviews coming).

 

[Shadow Fury]

Yeah let's make such a contest. I'm confident that I'll achieve the first place

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

This is a tricky one to execute. Especially tricky for the judging criteria.

Maybe.

 

[Shadow Fury]

Judges will have to review reviews? Funny thing but why not giving it a go?

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

How would one win a contest without anyone determining the winner? There can be multiple judges of course.

A contest needs judging criteria in order for contestants know what their objective is.

 

[Daffa]

Make that a change, each user has to review ONE map from the pending section. One user may not review what other contestant has (subject to change). Map must have some quality (not those of description less maps and craps).

Proposed criteria :
Review : does the review content fulfill well with ALL aspect of the map reviewed?
Suggestion : does the suggestion make sense and applicable? Is it difficult for AVERAGE Modders to complete?
Score : is it justified, does the scoring justifies the reasoning given?
More idea?

That's what I had in mind. If we choose quantity, then judges WILL have a VERY HARD time reviewing/judging them all. I prefer term judging for the contest, as reviewing review looks confusing

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

I'll post a new discussion about contests sometime this week.

 

[sonofjay]

Oh god, and I haven't even finish reviewing the melee map contest and you guys wants to force labor me. Sadistic bastards.

For me reviewing is to help a map that interested me to improve. Sadly, there is barely anything on the map section that piques my interests so I usually hangout around the map development section where I get private request for map testing and reviewing.

I didn't know people sees map reviewing as a competitive thing so I'm a little alienated on this thread.

 

[sonofjay]

Stabbing him is way more classier.

*Grabs Daffa*

 

[Daffa]

Shar, I'm well aware of that, I know the idea is crazy actually.

SCN, we might need to reconsider such actually. I reconsider my opinion and scrap the idea. Shar's right, a contest doesn't suit for us, sorry for this sudden change of mind.

SoJ, you always know the best way of classic btw, you stab my reflection

Well, unless someone really spam map section with decent quality maps, then this group is pretty much inactive, anyone care for some mapping contests?
Or maybe something on your minds for us to do?

"Map Reviewers... We are alive because of mappers, without them, we're nothing much of reviewers." - Daffa the Mage

 

[Chaosy]

Meh, I don't see the point of such a contest.

 

[StoPCampinGn00b]

The discussion I was going to make was to act as something to stir a debate. The topic being? If contests belong in the MR group or not. I stood from the start that contests wouldn't be the right thing, but of course persuasion can do what it's intended to do.

Would ya'll still like that or is it unnecessary?

*Waits for replies*

 

[Shadow Fury]

Never mind... a contest for judging reviews isn't probably a brilliant idea though it would an incentive to all reviewers to make their best to produce professional reviews.
Anyway, better not to make the contest.

 

[Daffa]

Then we're settled, right?

So, any other idea for activity?
Honestly, I wish the old 2013 or the 2008 edition is here so we really get some real tons of maps to choose to review for.

 

[sonofjay]

You can always review maps even if they're already approved. I'm pretty sure you have missed a lot of good ones out there.

 

[Binsu]

How I wish I still have the power to review maps like in the old days where I clean them for breakfast. But sadly, real life is killing it for me at times but I will see what I can do.

 

[deepstrasz]

Indeed :|

 

[eubz]

Hello, sorry for being inactive but as soon as I reinsyalled my warcraft I'll be back rebiewing once more and then.