Hymn For Victory

[Knecht]

It's great to see someone else who's enthusiastic for boats in wc3 melee. Some might tell you that boats have no place in melee but don't let your spirits down, if it weren't for boat maps gaining traction in both contests and tournaments, we wouldn't have ever seen them in the patch notes.

Your maps have really solid boatplay in mind. However, I feel like the ground layout is lacking a bit. It feels too big for 1v1, more so since the middle is unaccesible by ground forces. The distances between some stuff could be smaller. The area behind the base feels redundant with the somewhat safe red and orange camps. And the goblin shop is also somewhat peculiar. The creep routes feel weird.

This layout in particular reminds me of an AoM or AoE map, I think it could work pretty well in wc3, but it would need many tweaks since it practically splits the map in two halves if the players refuse to use boats. If the ground part of the map was better, this would be a very solid boat map imo.

 

[Folderz]

@Knecht red and orange camps in corners could be moved little more towards center or something to make it riskier. Im happy to hear your feedback since you're boat fan aswell. I and map are open for good suggestions.

 

[Nudl9]

Looks good.

I did a quick paint doodle to explain some things that i would look into.

Expanding doesn't look very safe and should be closer or more secure.
If you're going with the boat theme then you might as well have an expansion island or something.

The spawn looks placed without consideration for map layout.
It looks too much like a path and not a base area.
Placing it further back and removing the stuff behind to give the player a secure back would be an improvement.
Maybe allow the opponent enough space to pass through like you can on Last Refuge or sneak by with a hero during night.

I think there's too many creeps on the map overall.
The camps behind the base could prove hard to contest and is better off if it were removed.

 

[Folderz]

@Nudl9 I like the remove corners / push stuff more central idea. Then armies have more meaningful positions at all times. Also I want to make starting locations that feel like home. These little paint doodles are very welcomed.

 

[deepstrasz]

Placing it further back and removing the stuff behind to give the player a secure back would be an improvement.

Wouldn't that make just two paths to your enemy instead of three? Now it seems more thrilling.

 

[Nudl9]

Are you referring to the paths behind the base?
Well yes, but that path won't be used offensively since playing there means you're not close to key objectives.
You can probably lame with BM flamestrike, cannon towers or AoW through the trees, but that's not something you want in a 1v1 map.
Right now players will fight on either side or the same one.
By pushing the base back, the player pushing can retreat to the other side.
You get better movement options as the attacker.
Instead of having to go back the same linear path you just crept.

 

[deepstrasz]

You get better movement options as the attacker.

Well, it's the attacker's choice. If he messes up it's his fault and has to be punished for it.
You can do cool stuff like send some troops in the left/east and have your army in the west and fool the opponent to get out of his base while you destroy a building on the other side or stuff like that. For Night Elves it works wonders wince you can then Shadowmeld those distracting units.

 

[Knecht]

Agree with @Nudl9 on the layout. A RoC map Hills of Glory had a very similar base layout and only 2 ways to get to it. As I said in my previous post, this map reminds me heavily of an Age of Mythology map called Mediterranean, idk could work as some sort of inspiration maybe?

Anyways, here's my take on it:
- the deep water parts are too long, you can take some of that deep water and move the other stuff closer towards center.
- imo it would be better, if you could get to the island expo by cutting the trees behind the creeps, there would have to be less trees (I'd say about the lenght of Golems in the Mist expos). Having less trees there would also give more space there, maybe move the shop closer to mid or leave it as an open area.
- I tried to do some creep camp changes as well to maybe make the creep routes flow better. The middle green camps near the GM can be orange or whatever. The corners where the merc camp was is now a red camp, would be more competitive
- added shallow water between the new expo position and the orange camp to again make the creep routes better
- added shallow water all the way between shop and merc camp to make it easier to fetch items by boat

Also consider having mercs or goblin labs at the proposed red camps. Could be interesting with labs imo.

Sorry for the rough sketches, hope you can get something out of them

 

[Folderz]

@Knecht so many things served on a silver platter. No mapper could ask more! I think I'll start with more urgent things like the corners and main bases. I like the middle green camps idea and you did also find new home for red camps.

Im little afraid about making tree lines and deep water areas too thin. Does it turn the map warden heaven? Shopping with boat could be nice. It is just do I want ship to be go-to option in everything or limit them in middle. People are not that comfy with boats so would not like to give them too big role yet. Maybe im wrong with that. I'll be dropping updates here and there. Awesome that you and other help with this map and boats!

 

[Nudl9]

I wouldn't worry so much about treeline to island expo.
If it's the length of a flamestrike then that's probably fine.

Warden is only viable on Terenas Stand against HU since she can kill peasants easily.
She falls flat in most matchups and maps.
So don't sweat it.

 

[Folderz]

@Nudl9 Very reasonable. I'll make the thin treeline area behind the rock golem camp so it's funny secret route. We don't fear wardens here!

 

[mafe]

Ok, due to the contest I've temporarily taken a break from reviewing melee maps, but I gues there is no harm in reviewing the non-contest maps now.

This map is quite good. I'm still doubtful that boats are something that would be considered "fun" by most players. The same applies to the idea of "opening passages by cutting down trees", but in combination here it seems to be actually interesting.
However, if players refuse to buy a boat, they might just keep on creeping on opposite sides of the map as getting across the map takes too much time.

Other than that, several itemdrops are kinda weak in comparison to the creepcamps dropping them.
The tileset combination is nice, but also takes some time getting used to.

So overall, you should probably adjust some of the itemdrops. But anyway, as there are no other "bugs", map approved nevertheless.

 

[Zucth]

I love to see how people use trees blockline in 1v1 or 2v2 map, and it worked this way by the uses of the boat. very interesting mechanic. I didn't sure about what people will say when seeing this minimap color[that base cover tree color.] there's many thing going on. But I can't say much since I always do that.

 

[Folderz]

@mafe Map approved ty! It is nice that boat map is somewhat interesting. Even when this might get pretty passive without naval usage.

@Zucth Minimap colors are bad around main base treeline. This color can be changed by usage of new tree skin. Boat can add variety which is really important in gaming world.