Gryphon Rider has piercing damage. Does he?

[birollo]

Hey guys first of all I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong sub-forum, just dunno where to post this question of mine.

So, I used to believe Gryphon Rider has magic damage since tft's release but I just now discovered while using world editor that Gryphon Rider has actually piercing damage.

Since I'm mostly using wc3 world editor rather than playing tft these days I didn't notice that before and I am even more confused because I am currently also watching lots of wc3 replays being casted on YouTube and I'm pretty sure about Gryphon Riders having magic damage in those replays .-. am I bugged or I just missed something out?

 

[The_Silent]

Mine says "Magic" damage for both primary and secondary attack.

 

[birollo]

Thanks The_Silent. Ok so I am almost sure that it is a bug of mine and it is blowing up my mind D:

I just checked and every time I open an alrealy existing map in the editor it says piercing damage, BUT if I start a New Map and I launch the test Gryphon Rider has indeed magic damage, BUT#2 after I saved the Map and re-opened it Gryphon Rider now has piercing damage again! LOL? What the f is happening here??

Help me figure out what it is going on guys

EDIT: Just noticed I made a mistake in the post. Here

I just checked and every time I open an alrealy existing map in the editor it says piercing damage, BUT if I start a New Map at first the editor says that Gryphon Rider has indeed magic damage, BUT#2 after I launched the test or I saved the Map and re-opened it Gryphon Rider now has piercing damage again! LOL? What the f is happening here??

 

[DracoL1ch]

I just checked and every time I open an alrealy existing map in the editor it says piercing damage, BUT if I start a New Map at first the editor says that Gryphon Rider has indeed magic damage, BUT#2 after I launched the test or I saved the Map and re-opened it Gryphon Rider now has piercing damage again! LOL? What the f is happening here??

maybe they had magic in ROC and thats been changed with TFT, but editor wasn't updated properly?

 

[birollo]

It could be so, but according to the gryphon rider's stats informations I found on other websites like wikias and Blizzard Official site it seems like it is not. Unfortunately Gryphons truly have magic dmg in TFT.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I have found that lots of things are missing/wrong in the Editor without the "Use Latest Melee/Game Patch" option checked (it's in Gameplay Constants, I think?). I was gathering info on what Tiers everything comes in, and it kept telling me Batriders & Gargoyles & such were T3, & I was like "Nuh-uh!"

 

[Kaijyuu]

Scenario -> Map Options -> Game Data Set (at the bottom). Choose the last option.

According to my wife, the default behavior of the editor is to use TFT 1.07 for "non-melee" maps in order to preserve object editor settings as blizz released new patches. If you based a unit off the gryphon rider and wanted pierce damage, you wouldn't have changed that field, and this prevents Blizz's later patches from changing your unit to use magic damage instead.

As for the "non-melee" map part, blizz had two groups of people to consider: a rather large group of people (at the time) who just made custom terrain for the base game (and didn't want everything to be randomly reverted to 1.07), and the custom map makers who made tower defenses and crap (who DID want static object data). As such, if you never changed your map to "non-melee" status, the game would use the latest patch data by default, otherwise 1.07. This explains the weird behavior of seeing magic damage for gryphon riders until you save.

 

[birollo]

I checked what you guys said about the "use latest patch" option and you were right. Thank you both! and Kaijyuu's wife too. I changed the Game Data Set option and it worked, Gryphons have no longer pierce damage so it wasn't a bug after all. And I'm glad that it wasn't me screwing things up while editing

There is another question coming up in my mind then, do you know why wc3 base maps aren't tagged as "melee" in Object Manager, when they clearly act as melee maps in the game?

 

[Kyrbi0]

According to my wife, the default behavior of the editor is to use TFT 1.07 for ...

Dang, your wife knows (a lot) about Warcraft (modding)?

 

[birollo]

Haha, that line got me wondering too

 

[Kaijyuu]

Haha, we met through warcraft 3 map making She's pretty cool.

do you know why wc3 base maps aren't tagged as "melee" in Object Manager, when they clearly act as melee maps in the game?

Not a clue. It *should* only flag it as non-melee if you add triggers, add non-creeps, etc.

 

[Kyrbi0]

Haha, we met through warcraft 3 map making She's pretty cool.

Wow, whatta find!

 

[birollo]

Not a clue. It *should* only flag it as non-melee if you add triggers, add non-creeps, etc.

You're right. And I think I got a clue just now: it says it is because triggers have been modified, in fact if you go to trigger editor and reset to default the triggers then the map will be properly tagged as "melee", but I don't know why this happens btw. Now I really should go, goodnight everyone!

Ps:

Haha, we met through warcraft 3 map making She's pretty cool.

that's actually a cool story Kaijyuu, if I may cheers to both of you!

 

[birollo]

Hey, thread up. I found out other values beside gryphon's attack type that are currently still messed up, even after changing Game data set to Latest patch. Rifleman has 535 hp and flying Machines have more hp than normal too, I have no idea about how to fix this and I actually do not care anymore, I'm just reporting it in case anyone out there has found the same issue and don't know what it's all about. Peace-

 

[Rui]

As mentioned, this is normal. Gryphons and frost wyrms had piercing damage in 1.07. Chimaeras had magic damage.

@birollo
Those are correct statistics as they match the latest patch changes.

IMPORTANT
There are other rather strange things that should motivate you to always use the latest patch settings. E.g., when using 1.07, there's sometimes a floating health bar bug that assumes a fixed position on the screen and refuses to disappear. This does not happen when using latest patch settings.

 

[birollo]

You are right Rui, Rifleman and Flying Machine stats are correct.
Do you also know why those stats are not updated in the editor? because riflemen do have 520 hp within the editor .-.

edit: I mean, because riflemen do have 520 hp within the editor if you open any standard map, otherwise if you open the objects editor but you open no map then riflemen have 535 hp indeed.

 

[Rui]

edit: I mean, because riflemen do have 520 hp within the editor if you open any standard map, otherwise if you open the objects editor but you open no map then riflemen have 535 hp indeed.

World Editor idiosyncrasies . This is a small thing that could actually be changed in future patches as most people don't even realize they're using old patch settings. I don't remember how many times I told the creators of Azeroth Wars: Legacy Reborn to change patch settings because of both the health bar bug and their game being inherently melee . They're still using old patch settings as far as I'm aware.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The reason the attack type changes in the editor is because of the data set the map is using.

All maps start out melee, and hence use the latest patch 1.27 melee data set for all units. However when custom changes are inserted into a map it loses its melee flag so instead it defaults to TFT (or RoC) release game data set. This change might require the editor or map to be reloaded to become apparent.

One can explicitly force a map to use the current melee data set instead of default by altering one of the various settings in one of the windows. However this should only be done for custom maps that need to reflect melee balance. The reason it defaults to release TFT object data is so that changes to melee balance introduced by patches do not suddenly alter units in unintended ways, potentially breaking the map.

As such for most maps one should use release data set.

There are other rather strange things that should motivate you to always use the latest patch settings. E.g., when using 1.07, there's sometimes a floating health bar bug that assumes a fixed position on the screen and refuses to disappear. This does not happen when using latest patch settings.

That bug is always there as it is a game engine bug. The patch versions chosen are nothing more than data sets. Or at least they should be to avoid ambiguous behaviour.

You can fix the bug by finding the unit who's health bar it is and then hovering over them with the cursor. It is also fixed when the unit gets removed from the field such as inside a transporter, by triggers or as a result of completed decay.

In StarCraft II they implemented this differently. There the current multiplayer balance is provided by the Multi mod, exception is if a hotfix balance patch was deployed. The Multi mod is incompatible with Campaign mods preventing one from using both at the same time. Since the Campaign mods are not subject to much change it makes the resulting maps far more likely to work between patch versions than if the Multi mods were used.

 

[Rui]

That bug is always there as it is a game engine bug.

It's never happened to me while playing maps using latest melee patch.

 

[birollo]

The reason it defaults to release TFT object data is so that changes to melee balance introduced by patches do not suddenly alter units in unintended ways, potentially breaking the map.

Mhh, incoming patches could actually change balance in my own maps, I never thought about it untill you pointed that out, thank you Doctor.

World Editor idiosyncrasies

haha, all right it's fine then.

 

[MysteryMaze]

As far as I remember, gr had magic damage by the time tft was introduced, but later had piercing damage only when storm hammer upgrade was done. (I don't remember the exact name for the upgrade. Correct me plz!) But recently I found it to have magic type damage again both before and after upgrade.