Golden Chaos v1.5

[Moderator]

16:49, 16th Aug 2008
Septimus: Very good map, keep it up.

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/783910-post2.html

 

[Septimus]

This map had been examined by Alexis Septimus.
If you think this map review is not accurate or require another review, feel free to contact Alexis Septimus. But, map would only be review again for second time and also for the last time unless under certain circumstances. It would be selfish to request constantly a mod/admin to keep review your map as there is many other maps waiting for approval as well.

However, if you still insist of another review after it had been review for second time. Feel free to contact other admin.

To contact Alexis Septimus, please click this

Visitor Message.

1) Terrain - Excellent (5)
2) Ingenuity -
3) Minor Error - Excellent (5)
4) Replay Value - Excellent (5)
5) Fun factor/gameplay - Excellent (5)
6) Use of imported material - Excellent (5)
7) Single player - Excellent (5)
8) AI support - Superb (6)
9) Camera -
10) Originality - Excellent (5)
11) File Size - Excellent (5)
12) Balancing - Good (4)
13) Packaging - Excellent (5)
14) Credits - Excellent (5)
15) Storyline - Average (3)
16) Theme - Excellent (5)
17) Protection - Good (4)
18) Quality - Excellent (5)
19) Description/Information - Excellent (5)
20) Hiveworkshop rules & regulation - Excellent (5)

Total Accumulation Point : 87/90 + 3 (Review) = 90

[+] - Good and fun play.
[+] - AI could prove to be challenging
[!] - At first, I do not know how to win this game. Till I found out that destroying the enemy gold mine is the key to victory. I suggest you to add a quest log telling people how to win this game.
[-] -

Review : This map is good, I test every hotkey and it seem to be function quite well. Everything is well written and the terrain look great although it might be generate randomly.

AI could prove to be really mad especially for beginner. This map could be consider as gold version from what I had seen.

Another 3 point for this map.

Score - 90/100
Rating - 5/5
Condition - Very Good
Status - Approve
Review - 1

The map might not be fully tested, if any user of the map found bug/error or anything else.
Feel free to contact Alexis Septimus by clicking this

Visitor Message.

 

[Hu_FG]

Good job. Fun play.

 

[Lightstalker]

It's been awhile since the last update, but it's been worth the wait.

Everything has been completely rebalanced to near perfect balance. Massing Ogres is no longer a good strategy, as now, every unit has a counter.

Big, big changes have been made with the AI. It now builds a varied army, and not just melees. It also techs a lot more, and is tougher in all difficulties, and the name of an AI is now randomly generated from a pool of 35 names.

There should be 0 bugs, as unlike previous versions, I have done extensive testing to make sure this was so.

2 new Easter Eggs have been added.

I've also optimized the coding a bit.

So... I think this might be the very last version.

Enjoy

 

[Somaz]

The map is realy nice, but how about writing your income somewhere (like in the multiboard)? I realy want to know how big is the income and when do I get it (every X seconds? How much is the X?).

The same about the mining picks/sticks or w/e xD Making the upgrade increases your income. But by how much? Your map has a lot of clues -_- Like what's the bash chance on ogre etc. Well I don't REALY need to know that, but knowing the income would be great!

 

[Somaz]

Okay, I played the map and I certainly hope this is NOT the last version...

First of all you need to fix the AI. The first time I played I was 1v1v1 against an easy AI, just to check the difficulty. And I pwned them. Then I played 2 games 1v1v1v1 with normal and then - hard AI's. And I frigin pwned them! I mean... I play this the 3rd time in my life and I pwn hard comps??

The gap between the hard and insane comps is TOO F*CKING HUGE. 1v1 the insane comp raped my ass. There's no chances against him 1v1, and then again, the hard comp is pretty easy!

I think that the difficulty of the normal comp should be increased a TON. The hard comps should be somewhere between Hard/Insane and the Insane comps don't realy need the "This is Sparta!" line xD Maybe debuff them a little. They are too insane. You may also improve the easy AI a lot.

So now the easy AI should be somewhere in Normal-Hard. The normal AI should be a bit stronger than the hard ones. The hard ones should be between Hard/Insane and the insane ones should be a bit easyer. You don't need to create huge gaps between the comps. You need to create an AI that is good for Human Players.

A few other ideas about the AI:
How about creating 4 different strategies? Upon start, every AI get's one of those. The first strategy should be Melee only. The second one should be a lot of ranged creeps + mages. The other 2 should be mixed xD From what I've seen, most likely if I go to the observers and watch the 4 AI's fighting each other - then they'll never end.

Also - the AI almost doesn't do any upgrades Upon end of the game one of the HARD AI's had 3 lvl armor, and another one had 1 lvl armor. I had everything at max! Even melee/caster upgrades, though I only used ranged units...

Other suggestions:
Team Battles. Oh yeah! I would REALY like to see a game mode like that. Like first you choose FFA or TEAM. Then if you chose TEAM, then you have 3 choises: Top vs Bottom, Left vs Right, or diagonal-wise.

Team Battles would be a nice addition to the game.

Also: The loading screen could use some extra description about the game for the newer players.

Like: Destroy the enemy gold mines to win (or leave them empty??). Or something for a good start like: Train your units in the tents and make upgrades in the gold mine. That would help a TON.

For now - I'm empty ^^

Edit: How about writing your income in the multiboard? You'll need to use the GetLocalPlayer function to make a different multiboard name for every player. That would be nice.

Also - sometimes it's hard to check how much gold is left in the gold mine. How about adding a third column in the multiboard that would tell you the gold in each gold mine? Oh yeah... The color of the gold left could also be green/yellow/dark yellow (orange) for the ammount of upgrades done.

I hope you'll do that ^^ You can leave the AI if it's hard to make (well, the game NEEDS to be played with real players), but I think the other suggestions are needed and fitting.

Edit: How about a rematch command? A single game usually doesn't last longer than 10 minutes, so a rematch mode would be great!

Edit 2: Well I got pwned by a hard comp, because he was feeded and the game lasted 26 minutes (wow).

I found some things that need to be changed.

First of all: The Initial mana of the casters. What's the point of making the upgrades if the casters don't get full mana when they spawn? Their regeneration isn't uber fast so I lose almost 1/2 of their mana. Set their initial mana to 1000 so they will have full mana on spawn.

Second: Skeletons suck

Third: The Arcane Mage's abilities suck the most... Stealing buffs? Omg... The first place goes to the drainei mages for their healing + inner fire. The second place goes to the kobolts for their bloodlust and curse (skeleton summon kind of sucks -_-). Arcane mages are almost useless.

Fourth: Ogre's are imba. Compared to the Gnoll boss, one ogre can easily take down 2 gnolls (maybe 3 even) and he costs only 25 more gold. Ogre is imba as shit -_- His cost should be something like 225-250.

Fifth: Buying cheaper units is better than the 75-100 gold ones. Why? Because of simple math! The expensive units take 3 food instead of 1, so they decrease your income by an extra 1.5. They cost 50 more gold (twise the cost) and have a bit more hp and damage. The pickpocket ability gives equal gold on all units, so if I'll have twice more units, I'll get twice more gold from them! So basicaly, buying cheap units is way better (unless the expensive unit's pickpocket ability gives more gold, I can't check that, because the tooltip doesn't say anything).

Last: The gold nova is imba -_- And what's it's AoE?

 

[Lightstalker]

Okay, I played the map and I certainly hope this is NOT the last version...

First of all you need to fix the AI. The first time I played I was 1v1v1 against an easy AI, just to check the difficulty. And I pwned them. Then I played 2 games 1v1v1v1 with normal and then - hard AI's. And I frigin pwned them! I mean... I play this the 3rd time in my life and I pwn hard comps??

The gap between the hard and insane comps is TOO F*CKING HUGE. 1v1 the insane comp raped my ass. There's no chances against him 1v1, and then again, the hard comp is pretty easy!

I think that the difficulty of the normal comp should be increased a TON. The hard comps should be somewhere between Hard/Insane and the Insane comps don't realy need the "This is Sparta!" line xD Maybe debuff them a little. They are too insane. You may also improve the easy AI a lot.

So now the easy AI should be somewhere in Normal-Hard. The normal AI should be a bit stronger than the hard ones. The hard ones should be between Hard/Insane and the insane ones should be a bit easyer. You don't need to create huge gaps between the comps. You need to create an AI that is good for Human Players.

A few other ideas about the AI:
How about creating 4 different strategies? Upon start, every AI get's one of those. The first strategy should be Melee only. The second one should be a lot of ranged creeps + mages. The other 2 should be mixed xD From what I've seen, most likely if I go to the observers and watch the 4 AI's fighting each other - then they'll never end.

Also - the AI almost doesn't do any upgrades Upon end of the game one of the HARD AI's had 3 lvl armor, and another one had 1 lvl armor. I had everything at max! Even melee/caster upgrades, though I only used ranged units...

Other suggestions:
Team Battles. Oh yeah! I would REALY like to see a game mode like that. Like first you choose FFA or TEAM. Then if you chose TEAM, then you have 3 choises: Top vs Bottom, Left vs Right, or diagonal-wise.

Team Battles would be a nice addition to the game.

Also: The loading screen could use some extra description about the game for the newer players.

Like: Destroy the enemy gold mines to win (or leave them empty??). Or something for a good start like: Train your units in the tents and make upgrades in the gold mine. That would help a TON.

For now - I'm empty ^^

Edit: How about writing your income in the multiboard? You'll need to use the GetLocalPlayer function to make a different multiboard name for every player. That would be nice.

Also - sometimes it's hard to check how much gold is left in the gold mine. How about adding a third column in the multiboard that would tell you the gold in each gold mine? Oh yeah... The color of the gold left could also be green/yellow/dark yellow (orange) for the ammount of upgrades done.

I hope you'll do that ^^ You can leave the AI if it's hard to make (well, the game NEEDS to be played with real players), but I think the other suggestions are needed and fitting.

Edit: How about a rematch command? A single game usually doesn't last longer than 10 minutes, so a rematch mode would be great!

Edit 2: Well I got pwned by a hard comp, because he was feeded and the game lasted 26 minutes (wow).

I found some things that need to be changed.

First of all: The Initial mana of the casters. What's the point of making the upgrades if the casters don't get full mana when they spawn? Their regeneration isn't uber fast so I lose almost 1/2 of their mana. Set their initial mana to 1000 so they will have full mana on spawn.

Second: Skeletons suck

Third: The Arcane Mage's abilities suck the most... Stealing buffs? Omg... The first place goes to the drainei mages for their healing + inner fire. The second place goes to the kobolts for their bloodlust and curse (skeleton summon kind of sucks -_-). Arcane mages are almost useless.

Fourth: Ogre's are imba. Compared to the Gnoll boss, one ogre can easily take down 2 gnolls (maybe 3 even) and he costs only 25 more gold. Ogre is imba as shit -_- His cost should be something like 225-250.

Fifth: Buying cheaper units is better than the 75-100 gold ones. Why? Because of simple math! The expensive units take 3 food instead of 1, so they decrease your income by an extra 1.5. They cost 50 more gold (twise the cost) and have a bit more hp and damage. The pickpocket ability gives equal gold on all units, so if I'll have twice more units, I'll get twice more gold from them! So basicaly, buying cheap units is way better (unless the expensive unit's pickpocket ability gives more gold, I can't check that, because the tooltip doesn't say anything).

Last: The gold nova is imba -_- And what's it's AoE?

Lots of suggestions lol. Some good ones I might include

For the income, you don't get the same amount of income all the time. You get a random integer between 12-18 + (Tier lvl x 3) + (Mining picks x 4) - (75% of food used). You can get it anywhere from 4-6 seconds I think.

Skeletons suck, but the cost no gold or no food, and give no gold when attacked, only when killed and not much. 2 of them can take a tier 1 unit.

Stealing buffs is one of the best skills in the game! i mean, every skill BUT raise skeleton is a buff. With them, you can make your enemies' casters skills become useless.

Btw, there are 3 versions of ''Pickpocket'' 1 for each tier lvl. Trust me, higher tiered units are much better.

EDIT: Also, the AI does tech a lot. Just because you tech more doesn't mean it doesn't tech. Also, it could have been teching Mining Picks, and there's no way for a player to know another player's level of Mining Picks. It techs even more in Insane, too.

 

[Somaz]

So does that mean you'll release a new version xD? And the bonus from the mining picks should be higher -_-. Income is almost useless. Mostly I get the gold from pickpocket.

The skeletons cost 60 mana and can even be destroyed with abolish magic. And there are only 4 buffs in the game -_- Bloodlust, curse, faerie fire, and inner fire. Well I don't know. For me - arcane mages suck xD

Well maybe you're right about everything else.

The main changes I would like to see is: All AI's become stronger like:

So now the easy AI should be somewhere in Normal-Hard. The normal AI should be a bit stronger than the hard ones. The hard ones should be between Hard/Insane and the insane ones should be a bit easyer. You don't need to create huge gaps between the comps. You need to create an AI that is good for Human Players.

And maybe even:

How about creating 4 different strategies? Upon start, every AI get's one of those. The first strategy should be Melee only. The second one should be a lot of ranged creeps + mages. The other 2 should be mixed xD From what I've seen, most likely if I go to the observers and watch the 4 AI's fighting each other - then they'll never end.

Also - the upgrades are rather cheap and give you a permanent bonus, so I think the AI should do them fast.

The multiboard changes would be great (with the 3rd column), as well as showing your income in it and improving the mining pick upgrade bonus.

The initial mana change to 1000 and the Team Battles is a must!
And maybe write the AoE of Gold Nova + make it cost more gold (imba).

And Ogre is Imba ><

 

[Lightstalker]

So does that mean you'll release a new version xD? And the bonus from the mining picks should be higher -_-. Income is almost useless. Mostly I get the gold from pickpocket.

The skeletons cost 60 mana and can even be destroyed with abolish magic. And there are only 4 buffs in the game -_- Bloodlust, curse, faerie fire, and inner fire. Well I don't know. For me - arcane mages suck xD

Well maybe you're right about everything else.

The main changes I would like to see is: All AI's become stronger like:


And maybe even:


Also - the upgrades are rather cheap and give you a permanent bonus, so I think the AI should do them fast.

The multiboard changes would be great (with the 3rd column), as well as showing your income in it and improving the mining pick upgrade bonus.

The initial mana change to 1000 and the Team Battles is a must!
And maybe write the AoE of Gold Nova + make it cost more gold (imba).

And Ogre is Imba ><

haha. I will probably release v2.0 and you'll be able to buy items from the racoon in the middle. I don't know if items are such a good idea though. If I do add items, I'll make a whole bunch of them, and randomly add them to the racoon, and when an item is bought, it's replaced by another one.

Anyway, I think overall, the map is pretty balanced. I'm happy with it. Yea, gold nova is imba, but you can only really use it when you're getting your ass kicked. The range for it is 350, so it only works on melees. Btw, its 350 from the CENTER of the gold mine, not from the edge Ogres are really powerful compared to other creeps, but they since its no longer good to just mass them, I think they're imbaness isn't so bad. If anything, I'd increase their food cost back to 7. Btw, in standard melee games, casters don't start with 100% mana!!!


The team games is a great idea. I think I'll make it so you can choose your alliances in-game and that way, you can backstabb your ally or gang-up 3 on 1 What do you think?

The AI... well whenever someone beats the AI easily, they want a better AI... Before, the AI used to suck, but some people told me it was quite tough. Most said it sucked, so I buffed it up quite a lot. Now some people think its too tough, and you think its too easy in hard... lol. For the SC2 version, I plan to use game cache to store score info to create an ''Adaptative AI'' I don't know if it will be possible, but hopefully SC2's editor will be good enough.

 

[Somaz]

haha. I will probably release v2.0 and you'll be able to buy items from the racoon in the middle. I don't know if items are such a good idea though. If I do add items, I'll make a whole bunch of them, and randomly add them to the racoon, and when an item is bought, it's replaced by another one.

Anyway, I think overall, the map is pretty balanced. I'm happy with it. Yea, gold nova is imba, but you can only really use it when you're getting your ass kicked. The range for it is 350, so it only works on melees. Btw, its 350 from the CENTER of the gold mine, not from the edge Ogres are really powerful compared to other creeps, but they since its no longer good to just mass them, I think they're imbaness isn't so bad. If anything, I'd increase their food cost back to 7. Btw, in standard melee games, casters don't start with 100% mana!!!


The team games is a great idea. I think I'll make it so you can choose your alliances in-game and that way, you can backstabb your ally or gang-up 3 on 1 What do you think?

The AI... well whenever someone beats the AI easily, they want a better AI... Before, the AI used to suck, but some people told me it was quite tough. Most said it sucked, so I buffed it up quite a lot. Now some people think its too tough, and you think its too easy in hard... lol. For the SC2 version, I plan to use game cache to store score info to create an ''Adaptative AI'' I don't know if it will be possible, but hopefully SC2's editor will be good enough.

Hmmm... If you're creating items then either a) creeps will need an inventory slot b) there will be a hero. Creating a hero with nice spells could be a good idea. A good idea would be to create ~12 heroes that have the same stats/skills, but different models and icons.

A good idea would be to spawn runes randomly in 4 spots (a spot between each player pair). Runes could be:
+ damage
+ armor
heal
Illusions (creates 5 Illusions of the unit that picked it up/or hero. Illusions deal % of the damage)
divine rune - all your creeps invulnerable for 5 seconds
vampiric rune - 50% life steal to all creaps for a short duration
coin - gives gold

Ogres - compared to the gnolls they are too strong for only an extra 25 gold -_- What's the point of the gnolls then?

Gold nova could cost more gold, like 150 and have a higher AoE, longer cooldown. That would be more balanced, because ranged units have a very big advantage in the game ><

And in standard games the base of the enemy isn't 1000 units away from you, and you don't attack fast, you build up a big army/farm creeps.

Your team mode idea is just like FFA. Players can always do as you describe if they want to. And it will be kind of hard to determine the winner. Well, I think the alliance should be forced.

 

[Lightstalker]

Hmmm... If you're creating items then either a) creeps will need an inventory slot b) there will be a hero. Creating a hero with nice spells could be a good idea. A good idea would be to create ~12 heroes that have the same stats/skills, but different models and icons.

A good idea would be to spawn runes randomly in 4 spots (a spot between each player pair). Runes could be:
+ damage
+ armor
heal
Illusions (creates 5 Illusions of the unit that picked it up/or hero. Illusions deal % of the damage)
divine rune - all your creeps invulnerable for 5 seconds
vampiric rune - 50% life steal to all creaps for a short duration
coin - gives gold

Ogres - compared to the gnolls they are too strong for only an extra 25 gold -_- What's the point of the gnolls then?

Gold nova could cost more gold, like 150 and have a higher AoE, longer cooldown. That would be more balanced, because ranged units have a very big advantage in the game ><

And in standard games the base of the enemy isn't 1000 units away from you, and you don't attack fast, you build up a big army/farm creeps.

Your team mode idea is just like FFA. Players can always do as you describe if they want to. And it will be kind of hard to determine the winner. Well, I think the alliance should be forced.

Creeps already have 2 inventory slots. Also, I don't need to make Heroes. Normal units can use items. In fact, there's an Easter Egg where bosses spawn, and drop items when you kill them. Those items can be used by creeps. However, not all creeps can pick up all items. Some items are for soem creeps only. Also, there is a special game mode where a gold coin appears somewhere randomly in the map every once in a while

Gnolls need to be buffed up a bit maybe? They have a good aura.
Your suggestion to balance Gold Nova is a good one. Right now, it gives ranged an unfair advantage. I will keep it in mind when I work on a new version.

 

[Somaz]

Bosses? Coins? wtf -_- But how about the rune idea ? xD

Oh and about the multiboard. What's up with it's name? I think it should say Income: ^^

And PLEASE don't make the Team mode as you sayd

 

[Somaz]

I found a bug: When someone leaves, his name replaces player 1's name, not his own.

 

[Templarion]

This is a bit like Footman Wars but the units don't spawn automatically and you have to train them and upgrade them.

The biggest problem is that map is too small. There is not enough space to move around or time to make formations or tactics because your opponents are so damn close. This is also that kind of map where you have no idea what are you going to play before the game starts. Loading Screen space is wasted with useless info and a useless internet address - no tips or goals listed. Reading Quest Log will result your defeat because it takes too much time, of course.

An ok map and sometimes fun to play but really nothing special.

 

[Lightstalker]

This is a bit like Footman Wars but the units don't spawn automatically and you have to train them and upgrade them.

I'm guessing you've never played a footman wars before. Or maybe you think melee games are just like footmen wars, except you have to train your troops and build? And Hero Arenas are just like footmen wars, except with no units. And AoS are just like footmen wars, except you can't control your troops.

The biggest problem is that map is too small. There is not enough space to move around or time to make formations or tactics because your opponents are so damn close

That's the point...

This is also that kind of map where you have no idea what are you going to play before the game starts. Loading Screen space is wasted with useless info and a useless internet address - no tips or goals listed. Reading Quest Log will result your defeat because it takes too much time, of course.

That's easily changed... I plan on changing it for the next version. Also, you can play try it offline and time will stop while you read the log. Seriously, there isn't much to learn: make mercenaries from your tents, and use them to kill the enemy gold mine.

Anyway, I'm glad that's your only beef with the map, because I don't find it very important.

 

[Cyper95]

This is a bit like Footman Wars but the units don't spawn automatically and you have to train them and upgrade them.

The biggest problem is that map is too small. There is not enough space to move around or time to make formations or tactics because your opponents are so damn close. This is also that kind of map where you have no idea what are you going to play before the game starts. Loading Screen space is wasted with useless info and a useless internet address - no tips or goals listed. Reading Quest Log will result your defeat because it takes too much time, of course.

An ok map and sometimes fun to play but really nothing special.

first of all it isnt footman wars you were playing wake up
i find this map fun and stuff so i give 5/5