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Defining spam in icons section

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Regarding recent posting routines in icons forum....
As it is described in many rules around these forums, posting simple lines without any legit meaning is not an encouraged behavior.

Examples: Lines such as: Love it., 5/5, Nice but could be better 4/5, it looks cool, i don't like it cos murloc in icon looks like he is masturbating...

1. point: Seriously, if you like the icon and have an unbearable need to express your liking than just rep the guy and add a comment to it, don't post useless ,,i love it 5/5,, comments. All it does is a trivial ego boost for the icon maker and a post number increase for guy who seemed to like it sooo much he just had to say 5/5.

2. point: If you dislike the icon, saying: he looks dumb because he looks like he's in climax, is spamming. No one cares if you find him to be in climax as this is your subjective critique opinion that is legit only to you as long as it isn't supported by any arguments whatsoever.

3. point: 5/5 is not a feedback.

Exception: Saying he looks strange cos he seems to be high on weed cos of all the poorly defined leaves in the background that appear to be cannabis would be legit comment because you at least tried to support your claim with some sort of argument.

Conclusion: Even though I'm fully supportive only to comments that give constructive criticism, my point in here is: if you find it so necessary to express your opinion on icons being cool or stupid than please use some arguments at least.
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

Yup, it is spam, isn't it.

However, there is another apsect to light, too.
Many submitters start attacking you if you try to make constructive feedback,
stating one only posts to 'request' changes based on selfish needs.
I myself used to post comments with suggestions/critique, however, people started collectively attacking me.
I don't know how constructive the comments actually were, since I am not an English native speaker
and many many points may be misunderstood due to my lack of the right vocabulary.

In my opinion, Hiveworkshop is the wrong/ a bad place to receive artistically feedback, no matter what section we talk of.
One might be able to receive constructive comments in the artist sections, though they are corrupted with spammers, too.
Most people uploading to the sections are hobby artists, we only have a very small handful of actual artists in the icon section, for example.
One cannot expect submitters to offer a quality of commission and modern game standards quality.
Beside the usual lack of the ability to receive criticism from the side of the submitters,
a great critique with constructive feedback and useful suggestions is usually wasted time and effort here,
sicne that kind of comment is rarely appreciated or wished.

I also recall some submitters purposefully deleted and updated their resources to lock them,
not allowing users to comment on the resources.

Let them spam, they want to glorify the people who are able to do what they aren't able to achieve themselves or too lazy to learn.
 

Ralle

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I disagree. Every day people are giving constructive criticism on resources and submitters consume it. Sure, there are the people that believe they are perfect and see it as an attack when they get criticism.

About short useless comments. I am leaning more towards wanting to get rid of the non-constructive and negative comments although both are actually spam.
 

Roland

R

Roland

This is a bit offensive for other users who does this kind of comments tho, But for me I sometimes comment in a more summarized one, Or describing the icon a little bit offensive or hilarious.. but I say I disagree on this suggestions.
 
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I kind of agree and disagree with what's being said.

1. point: Seriously, if you like the icon and have an unbearable need to express your liking than just rep the guy and add a comment to it, don't post useless ,,i love it 5/5,, comments. All it does is a trivial ego boost for the icon maker and a post number increase for guy who seemed to like it sooo much he just had to say 5/5.

What's the problem with posting a positive comment? If I think a resource is perfect and I want to say so, I won't limit myself to rep only. This will make the creator happy and motivate him to do better, not necessarily feed his ego, while also allowing me to express my opinion. Resources can't simply get negative comments or just criticism as this doesn't let the author understand if he did something people appreciate or something full of flaws. Positive comments, spam or not spam, are somewhat beneficial. In addition, you cannot rate a resource without commenting it.
Otherwise you're basically telling me that 5/5 and DC resources should get nearly 0 comments, if not any at all, because they are so damn godlike 99% of the comments will be "5/5 omg awesome". That's banal if you ask me.

2. point: If you dislike the icon, saying: he looks dumb because he looks like he's in climax, is spamming. No one cares if you find him to be in climax as this is your subjective critique opinion that is legit only to you as long as it isn't supported by any arguments whatsoever.

You're right on this one! However, that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to say what they think. Unless they unfairly rate your resource based on such groundless argumentations, there's no need to rage on them for expressing their views. In addition, some people might even benefit from such comments. If someone thinks a lightning looks like a pile of blue-white spaghetti, the author could decide to improve the icon someway based on that and actually do better.

3. point: 5/5 is not a feedback.

Correct, it's not a feedback, although it acts as a *motivator*. I would honestly be disappointed with myself if nobody told me "Hey, good job, 4/5" or "Great one 5/5!" and just received criticism or criticism for how useful it can be. Furthermore, I've never seen someone complaining about a comment with only a 5/5 except from yourself so I don't see why removing such comments if they do no harm.

Conclusion: Even though I'm fully supportive only to comments that give constructive criticism, my point in here is: if you find it so necessary to express your opinion on icons being cool or stupid than please use some arguments at least.

That would be perfect were it not that this is a gaming forum and not the guild of art judges. People shouldn't feel they are obliged not to state their opinions because they might be considered spam. That would be detrimental.
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

'Tis is 6/5 awesome, lav it'

What a constructive purpose.
Of course, everyone is free to post whatever one would like.
Whether these posts are useful for other people, that's a different question.
Whether these posts should be useful for other people, that's a third question.
 

Moy

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1. point: Seriously, if you like the icon and have an unbearable need to express your liking than just rep the guy and add a comment to it, don't post useless ,,i love it 5/5,, comments. All it does is a trivial ego boost for the icon maker and a post number increase for guy who seemed to like it sooo much he just had to say 5/5.

It's an advantage as it will be bumped up into the 'New Posts" section on which almost all of the people go where to see some active threads. Me myself though use that. Also we cannot change what they are as they are not artists themselves and actually not see some flaws on the resource/art you've done so they just comment postive things to either motivate you or appreciate the art you've done.

2. point: If you dislike the icon, saying: he looks dumb because he looks like he's in climax, is spamming. No one cares if you find him to be in climax as this is your subjective critique opinion that is legit only to you as long as it isn't supported by any arguments whatsoever.
I agree with this. People always do that. Describing an art which doesn't look like it or either they are making fun jokes out of it. I really dislike those people, I can list them here but I prefer not to.

3. point: 5/5 is not a feedback.
It's a feedback, but with no proper description or content that supports such assumption (criticism). It has an advantage with that thread bumping to get more attention and possibly get a guy who can do a criticism to your resource.

We can't do anything with it right now but people here are not artists (there are some, but not a lot). Just accept the fact that they do that. Just be afraid when people are commenting bullshit against your icons which likely won't be going to happen. Have a good day.
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

It means:
"Keep doing what you're doing, I think you're great at it."

It usually also means:
'I have no idea how to judge this resource properly
since I lack knowledge about the standards
of the section the resource was created in'

It is like trying to judge something you have no idea of.
If you take a look on the request section, many many requests are of a ridiculous scale, especially model requests.
Posters are not aware a model is not created with pressing some buttons.
That's an example why posts like my example above are simply spam and inappropriate.
They do not have a meaning, are empty and senseless. It would hardly make a difference to not have them.
 

Which is why they are not reviewers or moderators. Hmm.


Anyway, I think it is too insignificant, and could potentially be harmful to the traffic of the site, so I vote no.

In best case, I would add a small text to the "Reply to thread" page (where people write the comment), reminding uses to only use constructive criticism. When they reply to a "thread" in the resource section.
 
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Which is why they are not reviewers or moderators. Hmm.


Anyway, I think it is too insignificant, and could potentially be harmful to the traffic of the site, so I vote no.

In best case, I would add a small text to the "Reply to thread" page (where people write the comment), reminding uses to only use constructive criticism. When they reply to a "thread" in the resource section.

Couldn't agree more.
 

Ardenian

A

Ardenian

Yes, I agree, there is probably no way one could or should do something against it.

I do like the idea of adding a small notification.
 
This is a community site after all and not a contest or a dick-show off. If you cannot stand comments, good or bad, just don't react to them.
Comments are just shouts into the deep void of the internet. It is up to you to shout back or not.

I agree with you on the idea that most people just say one liners to express their opinion. That is totally fine.
Do YOU really have to have any opinion on a community-based website that is centred around a main love for a video game? I don't think so. Furthermore if you love doing what you are doing don't even be bothered by others, just do your thing.
 
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Is saying hi accepted behavior in introduction section?

I don't know about other resources, I 'm referring to icons solely, have it in mind. Also I'm just expressing my view on general posting behavior in icons section, don't take it as an insult. Is it so much to ask from people to post lines longer than noice?

You can't post 5/5 only, if you liked it so much that you had to comment, than express your liking with more than just 5/5. Tell you liked the color or anything, I mean I haven't been long on these forums and I've already seen at least 5 people who constantly post cool and noice as only comment. They probably do it to boost post count anyway. The posting quality drops as 5/5 lines popularity grows imo. Sure, in reality restrictions about such posting can be negative for site traffic, but that is whole another discussion about what is more preferred between quantity an quality.

Why am I against 5/5 and similar lines? They aren't contributing to anything but to the post count of those who posted them. Sure, some can say that in translation from english to english 5/5 means: I find your icon ultimately pleasing especially because of all the precise body constitutions and an amazing impressionism style of the background, therefore I give you a 5 out of 5 rating. Yeah sure. Seriously people stop the mystification of 5/5 and similar lines. 5/5 means 5/5 nothing else. If the commentator wanted to tell you more he would. I just cannot accept that 5/5 is there to appreciate the artist's effort. In the end it is demotivating for those who would actually give some meaningful comment, even though it would be just a funny comment. Again, I'm not against joking and humor in comments as long as they are higher class than: he looks like he's in climax.


You can disagree with me or try to justify such behavior but 5/5 has no character, it means nothing and it is a spam.

Your comment has some truth. 5/5 is nothing more than just a figure of the rating. However, no matter how you complain about it, people won't really care because that's our very own human nature. I know that what you really want is to tell people to make good quality comments but sometimes, things won't always work like you want them to be. To conclude, all we can do is to accept the fact and adapt to this idiotic unfair world.
 
First it is important to mention that you have to post at least one comment before you can rate.
This requirement might be a reason for posts without too much of professional content.
So I can imagine people just make a post "Nice, 5/5", so they can rate.
(those kind of post you mean as bad habit as I understood)

Others than that we must clarify that it is a public submission thread which is not limited to detailed explainations from user-site,
but of course also offers the chance for example to quickly speak out your opinion, as long it's related to the submission.
So something like "This is great." can be simply enough imo.

Though I also must admit, it would also piss me off it such posts are the clear majority and it easily could look spammy, i they're just too many and often.
For example I saw several cases where people made like 20-30 posts in a row in random submissions just to say "Good, love it". - and these posts, seen as collective is clearly spam, if you ask me, as he was clearly not really interested in the resources themselves, but just increased his post count and so.

But for single cases I'm afraid there's nothing anyone can do, as long it's not clearly offtopic or spam towards the resource thread. :/
And the fact that it's a requirement to post first before you can rate does not help towards this issue at all.
 

Kazeon

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Why can't we just let people express their appreciations and gratitude? No matter how flattering people's comment is, I never thought any single bit of how great I'm, I'm simply feeling pleased to know that somebody is appreciating my work and that I can be useful for somebody else. In fact most of times I can't even express myself to be thankful enough to people's appreciations. Just like what Shadow Fury said, it feels very motivating to me. And so is to everyone else I believe.

It's probably lacking to be classified as "feedback", but we are human not robot. We have the ability be tolerant. Somebody is dictating you the way of making proper feedback but that doesn't mean you absolutely have to do it that way every single time. There are times where we don't know what to suggest, while we want to thank and to tell people that the resource is really deserving the thumbs. There are also people who do not care about the norm but simply passing by to express their feeling. Look at Gaias Retaliation threads, many people registered here simply just to appreciate the author. Even tho it was their first time of joining a social forum either knowing nothing about rules of post making. And many other scenarios too. I think all of that just make sense that it's happening so often.

Furthermore. When you got a "5/5" comment on your resource, would you really think like "fk it dood you are spamming my thread!", really? I don't think so. Sense of jealously is the only reason behind these discussions, people who's feeling jealous of seeing the others being pleased or getting appreciated. Sorry to be a bit offensive here but I find it offensive as well that some of you think we feel completely flattered and so proud of ourselves for being praised. You are getting us so negatively there and it's so distasteful.
 
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Your theory is flawed. First of all the purpose of commenting isn't to boost ego of icon maker. People are both allowed to praise and criticize your work. And an absolute critique to your work is not something that will trigger the accomplishment feeling in human being, like you said we are humans not robots. Posting 5/5 is not an expression of appreciation and it doesn't really matter how will you feel when you see it. It is completely irrelevant to the purpose of icon section. Even forum rules discourage people from posting short lines without any meaning. Please stop moralizing this issue because it is ridiculous.

Also I haven't said anything offensive to anyone and therefore it's not my problem if you found yourself insulted in any way. And just how have you came up to the conclusion that jealously is the only reason behind these discussions?
Mind reminding us what the purpose of commenting is all over again? Isn't it about expressing your gratitude and appreciation? Simply posting something like 5/5 and just that without any other comments is what I call meaningless. But if the user really does comment to show his appreciation toward the resource then that means it has a meaning. I'm more annoyed when some people praise the resource from years ago. It's a different story if they commented on it when the resource was fresh and just uploaded yesterday. As long as it's not meaningless.
 
I've been following this thread since the first post and I still don't understand what to complicate about?

Firstly, coming from my own perspective, I dont have any problem with people commenting single line '5/5' to my resources. It doesnt boost my ego, it simply tells me 'alright, the target audience appreciates this art direction, so this is the kind of quality they want.'

Second, if anyone simply gave me a 3/5 or 2/5 etc, I would accept it as 'so there is probably a group of audience that can't accept this,therefore I must find a way to satisfy them without sacrificing the group that liked my work, if possible.'

Third, as an art student myself, if truly improving my artistic skill is my main goal, I don't go to Hive Workshop, I go showcase my work to tutors or artists, watch art videos or simply compare my current work to established artist.

My point: Think of it this way, in real life if you are pursuing an art-based career (except fine artist), this is how most of your target audience are going to be - normal average people with no sensitivity to art. Like it or not, you have to deal with it and find a workaround - in this context, on how to improve your icon (perhaps VMing a person with better credibility, or wait for the moderators).
 

Kazeon

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Your theory is flawed. First of all the purpose of commenting isn't to boost ego of icon maker. People are both allowed to praise and criticize your work. And an absolute critique to your work is not something that will trigger the accomplishment feeling in human being, like you said we are humans not robots. Posting 5/5 is not an expression of appreciation and it doesn't really matter how will you feel when you see it. It is completely irrelevant to the purpose of icon section. Even forum rules discourage people from posting short lines without any meaning. Please stop moralizing this issue because it is ridiculous.

Also I haven't said anything offensive to anyone and therefore it's not my problem if you found yourself insulted in any way. And just how have you came up to the conclusion that jealously is the only reason behind these discussions?

I was summing up people's discussion, not particularly about your posts only. When I said something's offensive doesn't mean it's you, which is indeed not you.

Who's teaching you that the purpose of "5/5" comment is to feed somebody's ego? You are interpreting it that way because the comment is not on your resource and you are being negative minded (interpret things unreasonably negative). While on the resource maker's point of view, they may think it's just a comment they can ignore. Or for people who's appreciating appreciations, they can simply say thank you. Simple as that. Why do you think a simple "5/5" comment can be enough elevate somebody's ego so much? And moreover, why do you take it so seriously?

5/5 comment for me is not a disease, instead it's the result of normal human behavior to appreciate things while they don't want to waste too much times in learning the subject. And just like what they're saying, not everyone is experienced enough to make a good detailed criticism.
 

Chaosy

Tutorial Reviewer
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I think the main issue lies with the fact that you have to comment in order to rate the icon.

If I see an icon, and I think "it's quite neat.. I think it's good but not amazing, probably a 4/5" I have to comment something if I want to rate it, but I had no deep reasoning behind it. Thus I'd just post something simple.
Such as "Nice, 4/5"

I would normally debate against you on pretty much all your points, but I am not in the mood so I wont get involved for once.
 

Roland

R

Roland

So you want to give people a harder way on explaining about art? a long and a detailed explanation instead of a summarized comment with a puny score on it? It would take time for some person to review an art tho it needs a huge amount of thinking and detailed scan of the icon other than skimming what it looks and saying "WOAH VERY NICE!! 5/5 EXCELLENTOOO WOO NO COMMENT"
 
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Purpose of comments in icons section? Expressing opinion that can either be appreciation, criticism, suggestions and other. There is no imperative for comments to be appreciation solely ofc.
Right, it's not limited to appreciation only. But that can be appreciation, you said it yourself. So I don't see anything wrong with people who give positive opinions and appreciation such as "Amazing!" or "It looks beautiful. Love it." or "What a great contribution to the site! Thank you."
 
Guys, it is not rocket science. It is comments on resources. People are going to post what they think.

Until something is majorly nonconstructive, offensive or completely off topic, I see no reason to have to deal with any of it.

Comments like
"You suck at making icons, please stop 1/5"
or
"Kill yourself, you suck!"
or
"Can somebody help me with this trigger pls *posts a whole trigger*"
and so on can break several of those rules.

However,

I see nothing wrong with people saying things like
"I really like it 5/5"
or
"The shaft really looks like a penis"
or
"Kinda lacking compared to your other work, this is not like you at all"
or
"You can do better 3/5"

because they are honest opinions. And that's what the comment section is about. The comments I am fine with are actually derived from comments made by people on my models. Whether the sword handle looks like a penis (which might seem nonconstructive to some but it actually made me think for a bit), or my model is bad compared to the rest of them (if I whip something in 20 minutes compared to models I have taken more care to make), or that people like it, or that, again, I can do better (since they have seen my other work) are ALL simple opinions by users.

I cannot even argue against most of those because I can see where they are coming from. Even if somebody says your murloc looks like he's masturbating, that might be the way (some) people see the icon. I know you don't like it, I know it might infuriate you due to all the work you've put into it, but that's how it appears to them. You cannot argue against them having an opinion like that, and to discourage honest feedback is counter-productive anyhow. As I said, I once made a sword that had a handle/pommel area shaped like a penis and it did not at all occur to me until somebody pointed out. I've actually scratched the model for other reasons, but I did take that into consideration too.

I think that rather than re-imagine the way people post comments, content creators need to have more understanding for their end users because, after all, those are the people you create the resources for, and they'll post their honest opinions that very often do not meet your standards for how an opinion should be posted. But you need to remember that a lot of content USERS are not CREATORS (at least not of the same type, mind you) and they do not see your work the same way, nor could they ever hope to. I know how it was for me before I started modelling.

As for the OP - I can see how you feel, and I can understand your rant perfectly, but much like how that's your opinion on how users should post in the resource section, other users have their own opinion as well. And the resource section belongs to everyone, whether they want to share their work and receive feedback, or post some. All this being said, people who obviously go out of their way to spam the forum and who repeatedly post the same things all over again should probably be dealt with if they simply clog up the space for more constructive and useful comments to come through, but yes, at that point it has already become spam and is against the rules anyway, my post was really referring to what I consider mostly normal user behavior. The quality of your 2D art is extremely high, so you should not even be swayed by some odd opinions anyway. Always remember that users could never appreciate the 2D art in a way a 2D art creator can :)

So to TL;DR this - unless something is ridiculously nonconstructive, offensive or completely off topic, I see no reason to temper with it, people are often sincere, and content creators (like myself, as well) can like it or not, but instead of teaching users how to leave different kind of feedback (this will never work even if we tried), we should more so learn to accept how and what people think because, after all, those are the people we actually create resources for.
 
Last edited:
Haha, yeah, I can see what you mean. But the thing is, I've thought a lot about this subject ever since I got my powers initially in 2007 (I have had the responsibility of taking care of the kind of posts you are referring to for 9 years, on and off), and to be honest, I have never found a simple and effective solution for this.

I've always weighted what users want to post and what they perhaps should, but in the end it boils down to:

"We are honestly unable to force users to leave the feedback the way we want them to, while still keeping people in general satisfied", which I don't think everyone here has the guts to admit.

But that's how it is. It is honestly hard to put a clear line between constructive and nonconstructive posts if you consider that the general idea behind the resource section's comments is to reflect what users really want to say and think about the resource. You might not think that, but a "Looks nice, 5/5" post is still a user's opinion, no matter how you look at it. just because it is not particularly useful to you or me, it should not deter users from posting things like that. And some other content creators probably appreciate these kinds of comments, because they don't see a new post when somebody simply rates their resource, but they will be reminded of this kind of appreciation once the post is made. So there's other people's opinions to consider too, it is not all about you (or me, or any particular third person in question).

You know, this is a really complex subject because it has multiple ways to approach it, and we both have to remember that our mindset is not the only one (we have highly differing mindsets, and above I just described a third type of a mindset), so as much as it might seem straightforward to you (or me, I tend to oversimplify things sometimes), it's kind of really hard to even find any sort of a balance for this, let alone make big decisions on what we tolerate and what we don't (aside from basic site rules which apply to all text written everywhere on this site).
 
.... because they are honest opinions. And that's what the comment section is about....
So to TL;DR this - unless something is ridiculously nonconstructive, offensive or completely off topic, I see no reason to temper with it, people are often sincere, and content creators (like myself, as well) can like it or not, but instead of teaching users how to leave different kind of feedback (this will never work even if we tried), we should more so learn to accept how and what people think because, after all, those are the people we actually create resources for.
I fully agree with HappyTauren, we can't stop people from posting their honest opinions.
We can't ask people to post only constructive criticism. People want to express their opinion freely, unconstrained, as they can and as they know.
If we constrain people to post in accordance with the constructiveness rule, then the sections' activity will drop noticeably and people will lose their interest in posting.
 
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I admit I do this myself.

Some are just spam others like me just don't bother putting 2 paragraphs since I am not a moderator and I really don't know very much about icon making.

I love the colors 5/5 - for average users like us it is the most detailed we can do.

My suggestion...

Only add Posts count if the number of letters reach minimum to avoid intentional spams.
 
I admit I do this myself.

Some are just spam others like me just don't bother putting 2 paragraphs since I am not a moderator and I really don't know very much about icon making.

I love the colors 5/5 - for average users like us it is the most detailed we can do.

My suggestion...

Only add Posts count if the number of letters reach minimum to avoid intentional spams.

That rule would be awfully specific, plus the post count literally means nothing. But at the same time it could deter people from writing short comments if they just want their post count to go up.
Then again, just because a post is short, should not disqualify it from being counted.

I can go back and forth with this in my head, but I can't take either side, honestly, since both have pros and cons.
 
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That rule would be awfully specific, plus the post count literally means nothing. But at the same time it could deter people from writing short comments if they just want their post count to go up.
Then again, just because a post is short, should not disqualify it from being counted.

I can go back and forth with this in my head, but I can't take either side, honestly, since both have pros and cons.

Well for non-spammers the post limit is not a problem.

Look at Map Sections. Even though new uploaders aren't told about detailed descriptions they automatically make it because of letter minimum count.

We addressed the problem with trolls I think it is time for spammers. If then what is the point of this thread?
 
Personally I side with Murlocologist on this matter.

Obviously most users on this forum are not trained in judging art, be it 2D or 3D.
When I upload a resource I love getting feedback. Positive or negative, it doesn't matter as long as it is constructive.
I believe I have altered almost all my resources according to a post/posts by other users who actually wrote what they liked and not liked (especially my icons... phew).
Anyway.
When I get a notification that a resource of mine has a new post I get excited because I want to know what people think. If they like the colors, the model, the weapon, the whatever, or if they find something strange or bad.
But I need to know what is good and what is bad about my resources, and that is where constructive criticism comes in.
I cannot use an "Amazing 5/5" or a "Looks awful 1/5" for anything, and neither can anyone else reading the posts.
What is amazing or awful about my resource? It does not need to be a novel, a simple "I think blue would fit the model better" is fine because the user is posting something tangible. And that does not require the user to be an expert on the type of resource he is commenting on.

As I wrote further up.
I love when I have a notification. But as time has passed I tend to get a bit disappointed when I see that a new post is from certain users. Because I know that I cannot use the comment. I cannot improve or alter anything and I will not know what is liked, just a "4/5 or 5/5".
 

Chaosy

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I understand your reasoning but you can actually think something without having a physical reason to.
I am sure you can think of many situations where you can't explain why the think the way you do.

edit:
Though I also have to admit that instead of just writing "x/5" I could likely write down a short sentence with my reasoning in almost every case. But not always.
 
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