Bishop Build?

[Fakroz]

I used full points on int, I have other 18, where can I distribute it?

 

[muzzel]

Get Constitution for more HP, you will need it. You also can get some Wisdom, but you get a lot mana from items, so few points should suffice.
(When you play a lot in small teams like Tank + Healer then getting some more Wisdom might be a good idea since that allows you to heal and dps properly even if the fight takes longer)

 

[Fakroz]

ok, thanks - I will spend on int and cons, the rest of the attributes as wisdom and agility comes with the equipment..

full int and cons, it will be a great build

 

[Malygos10]

Also don't forget that wisdom gives 3% to all resistances, so putting 1-2 points in wis might not be a bad idea.

 

[muzzel]

But const gives hp, which gives a lot of survivability too. Especially since the more points you put into const the more hp/point you get.

 

[Malygos10]

Yeah and I'm not saying you should put in like 5 points into con, all I'm saying is 1 or 2 points wouldn't hurt. You can sacrifice some hp to get more resistance and in addition to that more mana.

 

[chiya]

hello, I just made a bishop and I will say my opinion about him.

I think currently bishop's base agi is too low and make points in agi too rewarding, especially in increasing haste. with 20 points in agi, i get around 26% haste. I'm planning to keep statting agi. this is just my theory but with that high amount of haste, flash of light would almost casted instantly, and I can rotate to soul strike every flash of light I cast.

with that high ammount of agi and haste, next issue will be mana problems. that's why i pick the first talent line, with the cd reset talent, every around 30sec mana potions will be available and it will completely remove any mana problems.

I also prefer going full con because with more hp i'd feel safer and have more margins for errors, if it's 5 con then it's only between around 150hp vs 5sp and I just picked more hp.

 

[Bannar]

Windom should be boosted a bit and/or items shoud have some of thier MP shifted away. Whats the point of window if it's negligible the higher ur lvl is?
Varienty of skill routes > mono builds.

 

[muzzel]

Most bishops ive seen have like 2-6 wisdom. Druids usually have some wisdom, some Bards/Hunters/Crusaders too.. I think Wisdom is quite balanced.

 

[chiya]

I think one of the reason wisdom tend to be weaker is the cd reset talent, usually talent with cd reset come along with not bad tier1-4 talent too making it popular choice among crus/hunt/assa/sorc.

with that talent, mana is no problem at all, assa and hunt could just go for pure con/agi and there'll be no mana problem for them because cd reset is triggered by normal attacks.

also for those who want to skill wisdom for ressistance, personally I'll just pick con because it also make you tankier, example, i have 600 hp and already having 20 con, the next con point will give me 30 hp which is 5% of my current hp.

well, the only difference is with more resistance, heal that you'll receive become more efficient.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The cooldown reset talents will be fixed in the next update. It was never intended that the cooldown reset works on potion cooldowns aswell.

 

[Malygos10]

I think one of the reason wisdom tend to be weaker is the cd reset talent, usually talent with cd reset come along with not bad tier1-4 talent too making it popular choice among crus/hunt/assa/sorc.

with that talent, mana is no problem at all, assa and hunt could just go for pure con/agi and there'll be no mana problem for them because cd reset is triggered by normal attacks.

also for those who want to skill wisdom for ressistance, personally I'll just pick con because it also make you tankier, example, i have 600 hp and already having 20 con, the next con point will give me 30 hp which is 5% of my current hp.

well, the only difference is with more resistance, heal that you'll receive become more efficient.

Alright we get it, you don't like cooldown reset talent. You're only focusing on hp bonus and completely ignoring the resistance bonus that you get when you skill wisdom, not to mention the additional mana.

It's really annoying that you keep mentioning how "op" cd reset talent is in your opinion. You said it once or twice in the appropriate thread, you don't have to keep talking about it in every one of your posts on all threads just because you happen to dislike it

 

[chiya]

only stating my opinion..

well, ok i won't talk about it anymore.. if that makes people happy.

 

[Malygos10]

hello, I just made a bishop and I will say my opinion about him.

I think currently bishop's base agi is too low and make points in agi too rewarding, especially in increasing haste. with 20 points in agi, i get around 26% haste. I'm planning to keep statting agi. this is just my theory but with that high amount of haste, flash of light would almost casted instantly, and I can rotate to soul strike every flash of light I cast.

with that high ammount of agi and haste, next issue will be mana problems. that's why i pick the first talent line, with the cd reset talent, every around 30sec mana potions will be available and it will completely remove any mana problems.

I also prefer going full con because with more hp i'd feel safer and have more margins for errors, if it's 5 con then it's only between around 150hp vs 5sp and I just picked more hp.

First of all, no one in their right mind would waste 20 points on agi, because then you would have to sacrifice sp and hp, or balance them out but still have pretty low hp and sp, cause that flash of light would heal for like 200 hp. And 26% spellhaste isn't instant mind you.

Second, if you plan on skilling more agi, and then go for con, then you would be a useless healer really. Sure you'd be able to heal fast, but you'd heal for very low hp.

Also don't forget that pots are not that cheap

 

[chiya]

First of all, no one in their right mind would waste 20 points on agi, because then you would have to sacrifice sp and hp, or balance them out but still have pretty low hp and sp, cause that flash of light would heal for like 200 hp. And 26% spellhaste isn't instant mind you.

Second, if you plan on skilling more agi, and then go for con, then you would be a useless healer really. Sure you'd be able to heal fast, but you'd heal for very low hp.

Also don't forget that pots are not that cheap

your point is of course valid and I believe most bishop are playing with the usual int+con with leftover to agi/wis. I'm here just stating some alternate build which I think could work.

I already have 100 sp without me putting a single point in int, well maybe I'm already geared a bit but still not fulled yet.

sacrificing 25 int is like 25-28 less sp which is huge, but having extra 31% haste is worth it in my book. I can always go 10 int and 15 agi if i feel like I'm having too much haste.

well yeah, don't mind me, maybe my mind is not right afterall? I'm just posting my build here and stating my opinion, maybe it's not mainstream and useless for some people so just ignore it if you feel so, I just wanted to try some other builds beside the usual one.

 

[muzzel]

Going for spellhaste only boosts Flash/Shadow tho, SP Bishops have much stronger Mend, Curse and Shield.

 

[grekern]

Going for spellhaste only boosts Flash/Shadow tho, SP Bishops have much stronger Mend, Curse and Shield.

Spellhaste also works well with resurrection due to the long cast time, might just be useful in some cases though.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

The cooldown reset talents will be fixed in the next update. It was never intended that the cooldown reset works on potion cooldowns aswell.

It is the only thing good about CD reset. CD reset talent brings with it a sudden and extreme increment in mana consumption, and its so big that a single pot won't suffice it (at least for hunter). Zwieb, I believed you were all for "balancing things out". So the pot CD reset was the balancing point to this irregular mana consumption. And please don't tell me "if it uses too much mana, then don't use the skills that just got reset, too often." If I didn't want to maximize my use of those skills and squeeze the real dps/other potentials of my char, then why would I go with reset cd talent?

Plus, FYI, assassin's sweeping blades when used for the second time (via reset CD) consumes 24 mana rather than 12. Small mana pots for hunter and assassin and sorc and even crus made so much possible, that taking it away sounds like overkill to me. It's an essential part of the integrity and strength you feel about the 5 pure classes in the game. Don't limit them.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Plus, FYI, assassin's sweeping blades when used for the second time (via reset CD) consumes 24 mana rather than 12.

... and you didn't think that this might be a bug worth reporting?

 

[grekern]

... and you didn't think that this might be a bug worth reporting?

If I recall, that bug have been reported a few times already

Perhaps we should make a new list in the bug report section with all the known bugs so it will be easier for you to see what we have found?

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

... and you didn't think that this might be a bug worth reporting?

By all means, update me! But last time I checked you weren't so diligently anxious to receive bug reports. To me, people's "will" is what rules the world, speaking in a very broadly philosophical way; so, if you didn't want or feel like fixing bugs, then Gaias is to me fine as it is. But anyway yea sorry maybe I should have reported it, it's rarely noticeable. Btw if u rest, even midfight via use of into shades, the bug doesn't apply.

 

[muzzel]

Kyuzo: if you need more mana on your hunter/assassin then get some wisdom. Thats why the stat exists. Assassins run around with what, 600 hp? Dont tell me you dont have enough statpoints.
2nd: you dont have to use the skill reset talent. If the balancing was perfect then all talent trees would be equally useful (not equally strong in every situation!) to allow for different builts. If you feel like a single tree is too strong/weak then come up with a suggestion but make sure you thought it through.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

You're justified muzzel; but in theory. I can't practically bring myself not to maximize the potential of a couple pure dps classes like hunt n sin. I can't picture other people I know do it either, can you?
I mean as much as I strive to build the smartest most useful & supportive build and care to not go over the "greedy" line with my bishop, cuz hes the heart n soul of the team, I do the exact other way around with dps chars, at least the pure ones. Dps is not a bonus element of the game its one of the main three pillars, and lacking it will press tons of extra pressure on healer first, and then tanker too, if not completely making things impossible.
I religiously tend to prioritize staying very durable with bishop, and likely remain greedy with sorc/sin/hunt. My sorc has 560 or 580 hp, I forgot, and my hunter 555. Sin being the exception cuz i wanted the 666 hp badly enuf. The rest Must go to str, its not even a contest.

About talents, I don't think Zwieb's intention was creating three equal trees to begin with. It's pretty obvious we have an outstanding best tree, one 2nd best that might satisfy who wanna be "different", and one absolutely "whatever" tree that I srsly belive no one uses. For all, except for bishop maybe. So I kinda do have to go with reset tree, cuz it's the best and I don't waste my time playing anything other than what I think best. Practically speaking.

 

[muzzel]

Ur saying that you cant spend points into Wisdom because you want to maximize your heroes dps. But in the next sentence yo claim that you cant dps properly because you lack mana.

You need to understand that having mana is not a matter of course. So if you need mana to pull high dps then its the most natural thing to spend some points into mana. Nobody said that pure agi+str has to be the best build, maybe your overall dps is higher if you get some wisdom. Playing a hero and mastering him includes finding out these things..

 

[Zwiebelchen]

All talent lines were designed with a different purpose. I tried my best to make them different in kind, supporting individual playstyles.
For some classes this worked really well, however, in case of the assassin (imho only due to the fact that the cooldown reset talent is broken), it failed somehow.

Remember that there might always be a *best* build for each purpose, but that's the nature of the matter (as there are only 3 talent lines so far).
A support/survivability build will of course deal less DPS than a pure damage build. So if you take it from this perspective, the DPS build is the best if you only want to focus on DPS (kinda makes sense, eh?), but might suck if your group needs the extra utility.


The reasoning behind each talent line should be pretty obvious. I don't think of classes being one of the three pillars. I think it's a lot more sophisticated than that.

If anything, there's 7 pillars here:
1a) tank - single-target
1b) tank - multi-target
2a) dps - single-target
2b) dps - multi-target
3) heal
4) support
5) utility

Most of the classes and talent builds fit into one or two of those categories. And then there's a lot of different flavours to them aswell (should a tank build focus on health and survivability, or on increased threat generation?).

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

@muzzel

"But in the next sentence yo claim that you cant dps properly because you lack mana."
- Oh I did? Can you point me to where I actually said that?
Being unable to dps properly and being unable to use the bonus of resetting cooldowns to its maximum potential, are two very different things.

"its the most natural thing to spend some points into mana"
No it's not natural to me. Quite on the contrary, it's the most ridiculous thing. You're taking this too generally, and too indifferently. Why would anyone in their right minds define their entire builds on minority cases where such excessive mana might be necessary?

"maybe your overall dps is higher if you get some wisdom"
Did you just really say that? Wisdom, increasing dps?...
.. I dunno, maybe you guys got some inside jokes between you in bnet or something, but where I come from wisdom only increases mana and resistances.


Apparently, like its always the case with forums, my point is being mistakenly assumed and warped into something else. I'll just stop furthering this discussion cuz I don't want to watch that process.

This whole thing starts off where? chiya, a new player comes here stating absolutely baseless self-proclaimed pseudo-facts all over the place and to my jaw-dropping surprise, zwieb takes him seriously. Imagine CD reset never existed. What we still got is the player's mana pool plus an entire refill with the use of a pot. Anybody claims pot CD reset is overpowered, bring me a factual statistic of all the boss fights you Actually Use 2nd Mana Pot. Bring it. No. Really.
Only place that happens is at Garg and Only hero it happens to is hunter (cuz she's so perfect at taking car of bugs And Garg and Only time it happens is when the mentioned hunter is accompanied by a leeching, under-leveled, weak team who drop most of the weight on her shoulder. I got 500 hours riding on this.

If you guys wanna remove pot cd's then do it. I don't care. It's Your game. If you can that is; without removing the whole CD reset itself.
Something finally adds some flavor to the gameplay and now you're against it. Pots reset is the perfect complement, and balancing element to the reset skill system. You just want to put a leash back on a power you just unleashed. I got two words for that. Uncool, & backwards.

 

[muzzel]

"But in the next sentence yo claim that you cant dps properly because you lack mana."
- Oh I did? Can you point me to where I actually said that?
Being unable to dps properly and being unable to use the bonus of resetting cooldowns to its maximum potential, are two very different things.

"its the most natural thing to spend some points into mana"
No it's not natural to me. Quite on the contrary, it's the most ridiculous thing. You're taking this too generally, and too indifferently. Why would anyone in their right minds define their entire builds on minority cases where such excessive mana might be necessary?

You said earlier: "CD reset talent brings with it a sudden and extreme increment in mana consumption".
This is obviously correct, but if using the CD reset talent requires a bigger mana pool then you maybe have to get some wisdom if you want to use that tree. Different playing styles might require different items and stats, and sometimes you need to do a tradeoff.

"maybe your overall dps is higher if you get some wisdom"
Did you just really say that? Wisdom, increasing dps?...

I said "maybe", which is exactly my point.
Just consider a sorcerer with 500 SP but only 20 mana, im sure you understand how additional points of wisdom would help him... You get the idea?
Its an extreme example and due to a stronger autoattack it might apply even less to assassins/hunters, but the concept is very general.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

This whole thing starts off where? chiya, a new player comes here stating absolutely baseless self-proclaimed pseudo-facts all over the place and to my jaw-dropping surprise, zwieb takes him seriously.

It wasn't really about what he said, but that I didn't know that the cooldown reset also affects potions, which was never intended in the first place. It's a bug that has to be fixed.

Imagine CD reset never existed. What we still got is the player's mana pool plus an entire refill with the use of a pot. Anybody claims pot CD reset is overpowered, bring me a factual statistic of all the boss fights you Actually Use 2nd Mana Pot. Bring it. No. Really.

Just because you don't need it now doesn't mean you never will. I have certain designs in my mind about how future content will look like and the boss battles - especially for D4 - will be a lot longer in that design.

Balancing content for level 50 players makes the whole process a lot easier, as there's much less variables to account for.

Only place that happens is at Garg and Only hero it happens to is hunter (cuz she's so perfect at taking car of bugs And Garg and Only time it happens is when the mentioned hunter is accompanied by a leeching, under-leveled, weak team who drop most of the weight on her shoulder. I got 500 hours riding on this.

If you guys wanna remove pot cd's then do it. I don't care. It's Your game. If you can that is; without removing the whole CD reset itself.
Something finally adds some flavor to the gameplay and now you're against it. Pots reset is the perfect complement, and balancing element to the reset skill system. You just want to put a leash back on a power you just unleashed. I got two words for that. Uncool, & backwards.

I never said I'm going to remove the CD reset itself for the hunter class.
I will only replace it for the assassin, as Sweeping blades makes it clearly OP.

For the mage and cleric, I will either make it affect abilities only or replace the talent with something else. Depending on my mood.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

@zwieb
"It's a bug that has to be fixed."
You don't really have to behave the same about everything that happens in the game that wasn't your intention, and remove or downgrade it cuz of that. You have a choice to go with the flow sometimes and make something different , forward-looking, and more creative.

"boss battles - especially for D4 - will be a lot longer in that design."
Can just be what we need. Strong enough bosses, will make things like cd resets look like the most natural and necessary and intended thing. If we are overpowered, then just simply make equally strong bosses, rather than nerfing us down.

"I will only replace it for the assassin, as Sweeping blades makes it clearly OP."
Again, practically speaking, it's not "clearly" op. I can't believe how people can be so confidently exaggerative, when their statement isn't even precise and well-thought.

Been a hundred times where my sin didn't reset cd's at bm or d3 boost farmings thru 2-entire minutes of fighting. People talk about cd resets like its a timed bomb happening whether u like it or not every 30 seconds. It's the furthest thing from that. And I believe, because you guys do not play your own game enuf, you are prone to take in people's random statements as judgments or reports about the balance of it without a filter.

If assassin's sweeping blade sounds potentially overpowered, how about rather than fixing the 12,24 mana problem, utilizing it into a new idea to leash it. Make it intended, that every time assassin's skills reset, their mana cost is increased. Twofold or any custom amount. You can just use this bug and make sweeping blades cost 12,24,36 etc or even more each time so it can't be spammed or so that he will have to take precautions.

Or, make some very annoying mass minions in bosses (similar to andy's zombies, bm's lings etc etc) that can't be ignored, and have to be aoe'ed quickly, HoweveR, they are weak but they summon every "20 secs" so u can't possibly sweep them or meteor them every time. When the boss keeps summoning them, people will be "begging for" sweeping blades to reset, not call it OP anymore (e.g. they can be highly magic-resistant creatures that eat away at team members' mana or reduce the amount of heal, etc etc. Examples of "can;t be ignored", or "being annoying", they don't have to have even medium damage, let alone high like zombies. Or something interesting! They can have 100% evasion so that only aoe "skills" or splash damage from another unit, e.g. boss, being hit, would damage them.)

I'm just saying, we can be poly-tonous (I just made this word, like "not monotonous") and take entirely different approaches to things like mana pot cd reset that might come to existence unintendedly and stand out in some people's eyes. Things don't always have to get the same "let's undo this" treatment.

"... or replace the talent with something else. Depending on my mood."
Future is suddenly, so bright.

@muzzel
"Just consider a sorcerer with 500 SP but only 20 mana, im sure you understand how additional points of wisdom would help him... You get the idea?"
I know it's example but it's so impractical I don't even dignify it with picturing it.
It would be called wisdom can be "accommodating" or "sustaining" dps, not increasing it.
In a real case, a mana pot is what does that. Back to block one, the reason we're talking about resetting pots can be imba.

Same is tru about hp, it sustains dps, it's not the enemy of dps; the thing I always tell people who want to go 250 hp at lvl 40 with tons of str/agil. And considering that, hp pots reset is also imba.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

@zwieb

"I will only replace it for the assassin, as Sweeping blades makes it clearly OP."
I can't believe how people can be so confidently exaggerative, when their statement isn't even precise and well-thought.

Finally found it. I was referring to this post
Today I was re-reading my post as I realized from your point of view that sentence sounded like me offending your opinion.

Truth of the matter, I came back to read the forum after some months; and reading various posts n threads in general for some time, lead me to the presumption that you guys, as creators of the map, are now taking in people's ideas excessively without a "filter" that would be your own actual experience of the game play. Just maybe you play too little. I dunno, just a guess. Plus so many moaning posts about OP this OP that. It got to me.

P.S: I dunno why, demon , but that post of urs is nothing but exaggeration and I never have heard any people express "we need aoe get assassin." Assassin's autoattacks are very strong n swift, but having a 12 second period of splash with high CD doesn't make him OP. It might feel like its more reliable than e.g. zerk's aoe but its only because at a boss like BM, he has better chance to completely clear the lings, since his aoe is gradual and long, compared to zerk's being almost instant, so he has chance to miss some of them.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

@zwieb
"It's a bug that has to be fixed."
You don't really have to behave the same about everything that happens in the game that wasn't your intention, and remove or downgrade it cuz of that. You have a choice to go with the flow sometimes and make something different , forward-looking, and more creative.

I'm always considering something like that. There have been features in this game that were "lucky mistakes" at the start but then evolved into a real feature.

"boss battles - especially for D4 - will be a lot longer in that design."
Can just be what we need. Strong enough bosses, will make things like cd resets look like the most natural and necessary and intended thing. If we are overpowered, then just simply make equally strong bosses, rather than nerfing us down.

It's not about the CD reset, which was intended, it's about the CD reset on potions. Mana management is a core game-mechanic in this game and I want to keep it like that. Being able to bypass that mechanic is just not a good game design. Also, if I make bosses stronger to account for the CD reset abilities, then all classes that do not have them would be screwed or other talent builds would be a lot weaker in comparison.

"I will only replace it for the assassin, as Sweeping blades makes it clearly OP."
Again, practically speaking, it's not "clearly" op. I can't believe how people can be so confidently exaggerative, when their statement isn't even precise and well-thought.

The problem with the cooldown reset and sweeping blades is, that it effectively makes the assassin an AoE class (which is not intended), as the reset triggers too often.
Nerfing the reset timer would fix that, but then the talent would be useless for the other abilities. But I'll consider keeping the talent if I can fix the mana pot issue and instead reduce the procc rate a little.

If assassin's sweeping blade sounds potentially overpowered, how about rather than fixing the 12,24 mana problem, utilizing it into a new idea to leash it. Make it intended, that every time assassin's skills reset, their mana cost is increased. Twofold or any custom amount. You can just use this bug and make sweeping blades cost 12,24,36 etc or even more each time so it can't be spammed or so that he will have to take precautions.

Why should I punish a player based on a random event? What if the situation doesn't require sweeping blades? That would just be terrible game design.

I'm just saying, we can be poly-tonous (I just made this word, like "not monotonous") and take entirely different approaches to things like mana pot cd reset that might come to existence unintendedly and stand out in some people's eyes. Things don't always have to get the same "let's undo this" treatment.

Again, it's not about "let's undo this", it's about my ideas about how I want the gameplay in Gaias to be. Mana management was meant as a core game mechanic and I constantly made updates to keep it like that (there have been significant nerfes to mana provided through items in the past to keep this mechanic alive).

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

Well thanks for understanding and taking the time to voluntarily convince me.
Two things, made me assume for granted that we are on the same page about some very minor details, since time immemorial. (But now I'm disillusioned. So I need to create the basis for my argument.)
One, it's human nature to assume others think same and understand him/her. Two, I, up until recently used to think you guys are always playing on bnet. But now that I took over the bots I also got curious and checked your stats

todeszwiebel: 43 games of total 5 hours
And no such ID as zwiebelchen

I got the second highest hours on your game (965) and even that's only becuz I was away for months on end when my net was so bad it was unplayable (u know that euarchangel!!). So that makes me the uhhem.. the expert on practical/actual stuff happening in the game (plus the fact that im addicted to scrutiny and nitpicking), while you're on the more theoretical mindset. Also I was first to use blade fury n backstab at same time when starting a fight, realizing fury was only an animation scripted to deal damage, and now can even spam them so fast I can bladefury +one autoattack+ backstab before e.g. alch is fully faced my way! Now it's standardized, even bards start with an in-stealth autoattack then stab, to maximize dps.
So allow me to go into, and over some details to make stuff more clear.

then all classes that do not have them would be screwed or other talent builds would be a lot weaker in comparison.

Reply

Yes true, and there is still coupla possible workarounds for that. How about making CD reset plus pots a complete outright and obvious aspect of the pure 5's unique & identifying strength, while to balance that out give the hybrid 5 better gear, or talent, or a combo of both, here on out. From future perspective it looks pretty reasonable. It even adds meaning to the choice you make when going hybrid or pure, depending on what you wanna be like:

A relentless class which excels at that single thing they do but are able to wear and have straightforwardly "good to very good" gear and talents;
OR
A hybrid multi-purpose class which is moderately good at the both (or more) things they do, but got intricately "excellent to top-notch" wears and talents, that brings out the best in their forte (like monk being a tank), or both/more purposes.

Or I dunno what you're adding as endgame material, but they can get special treatments there, only as much as to balance it out ofc.

As for other talent builds, first off, they don't spam skills on reset occasions so they use equally less mana and gold, and hardly anybody goes with talents other than reset tree, when playing the pure 5, save shop.Take crus for example, he clearly has much more chance to lose aggro without a resettable GA. It's part of his global design now.

If you really want other talents to even be used to begin with, or furthermore, to stand a chance against a possibly OP reset tree as an equal and similary appealing choice, then make them more potent. It's completely obvious that you have kept them nerfed and given the "best" tree most of the best and desirable branches as well.

Because as things are now, a close estimate of 1 out of every 20 people I know goes with any other talent with sorc, hunter, sin and crus. Bishop is just different cuz he benefits least from CD resets. Those numbers have to speak for themselves, I don't have to actually mention majority of players think of the other talent trees as , "maybe", and "whatever" (while reset tree is "hell yeah!"). Who'd miss out on all a bishop's awesome supporting talents and go with Wrath, as an example?! Or miss out on 15% extra crit on lightning (always 200% crit multi) plus CD reset with sorc, to go with Enchanting to increase the amazing water ele's duration?!

Mana management is a core game-mechanic

Reply

To be quite honest I haven't the slightest clue what mana management even is. Not that I dunno the concept, but that never noticed anyone really use it, or ever used it myself in practice.

You always heal and shield when you should, always use aoe skills when you need to, and you run out of mana for stealing 1 every 500 times, perhaps. You never think twice before doing any of those.
Bishops hardly run out of mana, and if their mana pool is depleted and the extra mana a big pot provides runs out too, then there is clearly some other element in the team extremely lacking. Especially, dps.

You have to come see sometimes how well-sync'd and well-geared teams annihilate bosses with team's mana pool less than 25% used, or before boss gets teh chance to use any of his skills twice. On 90% of boss run parties I played, garg's is the only pot-consuming boss fight, and even she, has been slain many times so fast that no one used a single pot (all u need is a frenzied full assassin on garg's butt during ground phase, say bye bye to 18k hp garg, before you even go airborne).

as the reset triggers too often.

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Well you must have married the goddess of luck. No I won't use hyperbole. It does happen, more often than not. But we're ignoring the very low chance here. It's completely fair and square that the highest atskpd char in the game shud have slightly more reset cds than the puny slowbie sorcerer. (I actually hate myself for saying that just now.)

It's not that it triggers too often. It's that assassin has crazy atkspd that gives him many more "chances" to trigger that 3% in the same amount of time. It's still 3%. Reminds me to say, crus has one of the lowest atkspds in game, but hes got only 5%. So maybe a tiny balancing is in order.
How many hours did you play a 46+ 5/5 Dueling assassin?
I'm repeating myself here, but I have gone with no resets for minutes on end. BM fights have been lost and retreated due to that, cuz we simply relied on a chance, that didnt occur. Take both sides into account before judging this.

Why should I punish a player based on a random event?

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You have to take into account all the angles of what I meant before calling it punishment. Firstly, only sweeping is the problem here so let' only increase sweeping's mana cost with each reset. That's exactly how the bug is atm. Only sweeping is subject to it. It's as if it's telling us hey you can nerf me this way!

Or, even (I know we dont want this, I'm just saying even complete dps leash system via mana cost increase is not sever at all to be called punishment) if we want to increase all sin skills mana cost with reset in order to leash his dps, we r practically left with only blade fury. (Second steal is useless, no one uses trap or blurred motions, venom is pointless to double use, acid is already active, and stealth, coup, backstab, & shades are mana-free anyway.

So how about blade fury needing +1 or +2 mana each time it is re-used via resets, like its the case with the bugged sweep atm?
This was just for argument's sake. Ignore it.

The problem with the cooldown reset and sweeping blades is, that it effectively makes the assassin an AoE class (which is not intended

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Having sweeps makes assassin an aoe already, even if partially. Why did you add it, as an "ulti" kinda skill too no less, if you wanted a pure single target dps? What dps class does Not have aoe? Any char who is dps, pure dps or hybrid dps, has some form of aoe.
Sorc has 2 aoe & 2 mass-damage, bard has the same as sin, hunt 2 aoe, necro 3 aoe.

So, why isn't hunter pointed out here and labelled OP?? Why not sorc?
This is what I mean when I say people don't think twice before trying to making a point. Most comments here on the forums come off the top of people's heads. Spur of the moment sort of thing.
In this very same post I mentioned, just a line above stating sin is OP, demon claims cd resets are "Not very useful at all" for a hunter.

Hello?! Have I ever seen another statement about Gaia less true? No.
Hunter benefits "the most" from CD resets, since she has the highest dps burst. ~12 to 15 times her AP (depending if you count her bear skills to) will reset all over and its not useful at all? All her skills are cool-downing type, for love's sake. -______-
And being able to reset and use those thanks to mana pots, is what I mean by squeezing out her true potential. Why would you wanna repress that? It's very hardcore, from a gamer's perspective.

Nerfing the reset timer would fix that, but then the talent would be useless for the other abilities.

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Far from it. It's actually about something I realized after playing assassin in my different team combinations, and watching dps meter playing different ways..
Assassin has reached very nearly an attack speed rate, that "wasting time" casting skills and hesitating on and between animations (e.g. blade fury's makes him wait a moment while, and after also), actually drops his dps!!

I know it might sound odd a tiny bit. But blade fury, even though it adds sudden 5 "chances" for sin's imba crit jobs to work and is 2.5 x AP worth of damage normally, only adds to overall dps "slightly". And coup de grace has virtually near zero animation time waste and is bigger than a single autoattack so it also doesn't decelerate the dps over time process.

So he loses very insignificant assets if you, e.g., set his reset timer to 45 sec. Only people who might dislike that are dps-maniac people, my kind of people, who wud argue: "shades + 5xAP blade fury in stealth" is what we wanted resets for anyway. But then again according to my arguement here, using shade + possible movement to target's back +blade fury's hesitations makes it create a big enough time interval to have lost 3-6 autoattacks. Again the loss compared to possible (3 to 6) x 340 or more each (critt damage) autoattacks, is not much even with evasions. And as I mentioned above, reset cds for sin scarcely have any other use than either fury, or shades (usu + fury).

In the end just adding lines of thought, that might converge, collide & bring you new ideas. Play safe if you'd rather. Stay true to your own Gaias sense. By all means. Cuz that also means stop taking epople's random pop-up opinions.

My moral point is, Freedom is beauty, and Restrictions are ugliness.

To others; if u wanna state something is OP, ask yourself, in what occasion? Is this real or am I just hypothesizing?
If you wanna call things "infinite mana", just ask urself the same. Ask yourself if you're considering all the details (3% 5% etc, 30 sec restraint, cost of mana, aoe dps = aoe aggro as well and he has to stand there and tough it out for 12 seconds, etc etc etc) before jumping to conclusions.
If assassin is OP in "some future" or in "theories" of what might or might not, in ur opinions, as respected as they are true, then let's balance assassin people, not unplug pot reset that would also affect crus, hunter, sorcerer, and even shop, which are in no way OP.

Am I not making a fair n clear point here? ~ʅ(｡◔‸◔｡)ʃ~

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Fair enough. Seems you really thought that over. Since the oppinions differ a lot on that topic, I go with my rule of thumb here: if all sides are equally pissed, chances are, it's balanced.

So the CD reset will stay the way they are (at least until I get more data on this with future content upgrades).

However, I will still take out the potion cooldown removal.


Saying that mana management isn't an issue anyway doesn't hold any value imho. That's because mana management IS an issue for groups with the appropriate strength.
Most people reporting in these forums are Gaia powergamers with multiple characters on 50, lots of experience with the bosses and great equipment. This is certainly not the target group for the current endgame encounters, which are just "transitioning content" to the actual endgame of Gaias.

Future outdoor bosses in the snow area will be a big step upwards in difficulty and take considerably longer to kill. Since everyone will be at level 50 and can not rise above that, one major variable is taken out of the equation, which makes balancing bosses a lot easier for me.


I'm currently aiming for boss battles at 10 minutes. Which means a team will take at average 10 minutes to kill a boss. I found this to be the magic number with any group content in MMOs. 10 minutes is long enough to make screw-ups of party members matter, but not long enough to make it frustrating. Also, a 10 minute battle will basicly allow for only one complete potion cooldown, making a third emergency potion possible at around the 12 minute mark for weaker groups.


So I assume mana management to be a real deal in the future. Currently, it's not, as battles will only last for a minute or two. But I can see a lot more people speccing into wisdom in the future - or go with a druid/bard support for the additional mana replenish.
It's my goal to make people - especially healers - to think twice about using a high mana cost group/instant-heal in a boss battle when a normal heal could achieve the same at the cost of less mana - and to think about how much haste they want to stack at the cost of spellpower or wisdom.
I think you will understand that CD resets working on mana potions would work against this.

 

[Kyuzo_dono]

It's all towards making the game more pleasant to us players, while maintaining enough balance to suit your palate. We both love Gias. d(-_^)
While some might not think it, honing the the rough edges towards balance is a long tough gradual process.
And yea, demon is one of the best folks I played with and I respect him, hes also my buddy from our group. Exactly why I'll not ignore false statements. By him or others. I just care too much.
Cheers!