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Air and Anti-Air

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Why are the orcs so bad at it?

They have the worst towers.

berserker.gif

Headhunters are very very squishy and they get even more squishier under frenzy form.

kodo.gif

Kodo beasts are as much any air as the Obsidian Statues, basicly not at all. They are support units that get no real upgrades.

wyvernrider.gif

Wind riders. Expensive and just not really good, the poision is a "meh" upgrade. They easily get rekt by cheaper anti-air flyers.

And finaly we get to the last option.

batrider.gif


The batrider.

Its a really mixed creature. On one hand its supposed to be an anti ground seige unit yet its got a really short range, small armor and no health. On the other hand they can just Jihad for a whopping 600 damage at target and 140 aoe. But is it really worth it? You are litteraly throwing money at the enemy in the middle of the fight.

Can we discuss why the orcs are so underpowered? What changes would you guys suggest to fix this?

Also who is better at air and anti-air, the humans or undead?
 

Dr Super Good

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Bat riders Volatile Concoction is meant to be used when they are about to die. The key thing is it does full damage no mater the current health of the bat rider. Using it at full health is a waste but using it when they are at 50 odd health and 1-2 hits from death with no chance of survival lets them deal 600 AoE damage for free instead of 1-2 usual low damage attacks.

Trolls are not as weak as you may think. They might be glass cannons but you have grunts and other beefy units to soak the damage while they do the pain.

You are missing the single most powerful AA option Orcs have which makes me even doubt how much you played them. The "Wolf Rider" with the ensnare upgrade is a real game changer. You see their ensnare drags down air units turning them into ground units and immobilizing them. This means that from having basic range options only you suddenly have the ability to use all your army as anti-air turning the battle completely in your favour. It also adds a huge cost to retreat for your enemies and any troops left ensnared will be killed in a retreat. Since ensnare is not magical it even works on dragons if I recall.

You also have the Orc Farseer as a hero option to anti-air. Chain lightning can deal some nasty damage to the low health air. Additionally being ranged means that he has an innate ability to attack air. The Voodoo Witchdoctor is also another good choice with serpent wards and innate anti-air capability.
 
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Headhunter
-Much cheaper than air units so easier to spam and you get them at tier 1;
-Pierce attack means it is effective against air units armor;
-Upgrade is very good;

Kodo
-Not an anti-air unit at all. It still buffs your army so why not have 1 or 2.

Wind Riders
-You get them at tier 2 (in current patch), already an advantage against enemy air;
-They attack with pierce damage and are very fast so they do counter heavy enemy air units which they can outnumber;
-They are not supposed to counter Anti Air units likes Hippogrifs and Gargoyles obviously;

Bat Rider
-He can not attack air, if it is air battle there is no benefit to wait with suicide;
-It is a base harasser unit, liquid fire and cheapness encourage you to use this unit to raid an enemy base. In my opinion not very good tactic in warcraft 3 where unit limit is crippling small. Towers anyway have heavy armor (there are exceptions) so siege attack against them is actually not an advantage;

Wolf Rider
-Probably a mandatory unit for orcs against air. It is pain to use Ensnare manually but orcs are mainly ground oriented race. You want to use orc melee to its full advantage.
-Edit: Ruin Night Elf players day by throwing nets at Channeling heroes, Net interrupts any channeling so you have a counter for Starfall.

Conclusion: Orcs do not lack at all AA power, but their ground power is better and more obvious. They do require an actual effort to counter air units which is why it seems harder than the effortless undead AA.
They have many combinations possible like Endurance Aura + Blood Lust + Scroll Of Speed.
_________________________________________________________________________
Regarding Human and Undead I am saying Undead are better at anti air.

Undead
They have two tactics either for ground based army web or the air superiority with gargoyles. Both are very easy to use and don't need micromanagement just attack focusing.
Undead air on the other hand I find lacking. Gargoyles in my opinion are not that good unless you want to invest in them but I prefer ground army more (they nerfed Crypt Fiends harshly ><). Frost Wyrm is too damn slow and expensive.

Human have Dragonhawks which I admit are are great AA units but they need management in greater numbers. Though humans do have some other probably underused choices like Gyrocopter massive AoE but undesirable damage and Siege Engine AA rockets but both seem to be aimed at destroying masses of light air units and not that effective to air units people will more likely spam.
As for air power well I find Griffins to be jack of all trades. Faster, cheaper than other Heavy air units but don't lack magical attack or AoE splash. Combine them with Dragonhawks and they are serious threat.

Night Elf Chimeras are honestly my favorite air to ground air unit. Insane damage, not that bad speed either and great range against buildings. Only lack air attack which is where archers and hippogrifs come.

Edit: Additional info for air power.
 
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Bat riders Volatile Concoction is meant to be used when they are about to die. The key thing is it does full damage no mater the current health of the bat rider. Using it at full health is a waste but using it when they are at 50 odd health and 1-2 hits from death with no chance of survival lets them deal 600 AoE damage for free instead of 1-2 usual low damage attacks.

Yeah right, try microing the wounded one during the big fight among the other 5 bat riders. Also keep in mind they have less hp than a footman and even less armor. Also they do 140 AOE damage, 600 damage only to the primary target.

Trolls are not as weak as you may think. They might be glass cannons but you have grunts and other beefy units to soak the damage while they do the pain.

Still not that spectacular there are plenty of ways to damage them even if mele backup is present.

You are missing the single most powerful AA option Orcs have which makes me even doubt how much you played them. The "Wolf Rider" with the ensnare upgrade is a real game changer. You see their ensnare drags down air units turning them into ground units and immobilizing them. This means that from having basic range options only you suddenly have the ability to use all your army as anti-air turning the battle completely in your favour. It also adds a huge cost to retreat for your enemies and any troops left ensnared will be killed in a retreat. Since ensnare is not magical it even works on dragons if I recall.

Oh yeah i kinda forgot about their existance. Today i tried to cheese my way against the AI turtling off untill i managed to leach all of the goldmines and than attack them with a horde of demolishers, because i had previously tried assaulting the computer (2 FFA undead isane AIs) but the hawks/bats were no match for the gargoyle/wyrms nor the gazilion ziggarats and that pesky black citadel. So yeah the game ended a draw because my mines were drained, i had 71 gold in total and only one surviving peon. Didnt bother with Reiders because they are quite shait in my opinion. Ensnare is kidna good but they are mele seige units squishier than grunts. I get that well, they are raiders but the only thing they are good is an unprotected mine.



You also have the Orc Farseer as a hero option to anti-air. Chain lightning can deal some nasty damage to the low health air. Additionally being ranged means that he has an innate ability to attack air.

I dont know, in my opinion he is the worst horde hero. Shock wave is just as good and an orb fixes the AA problem.

The Voodoo Witchdoctor is also another good choice with serpent wards and innate anti-air capability.

Yeah...I forgot about this guy...well you see... Im a main the alliance.


Undead for air and human for anti-air.

No hate pl0x

Are they? flying machines wreck gargoyles because of their numbers and splash damage. Wyrms get snared by Dragonhawks and killed.... The only possible counter might be the Destroyers...but eh just zerg em with more helicopters.

Try going with Gryphons for a raid and you're dead meat.

Best raid is invisible knight into enemy base and mass teleporting archmage with a squad of seige engines and knights.

Also, use combinations of units.
Shaman Bloodlust, throw in an endurance aura and you have a wind rider on speed.

Bloodlust doesnt work on demolishers. Also the orcs have shit tier spells, most of them are useless or underpowered.

EDIT:::
Headhunter
-Much cheaper than air units so easier to spam and you get them at tier 1;
-Pierce attack means it is effective against air units armor;
-Upgrade is very good;

Wind Riders
-You get them at tier 2 (in current patch), already an advantage against enemy air;
-They attack with pierce damage and are very fast so they do counter heavy enemy air units which they can outnumber;
-They are not supposed to counter Anti Air units likes Hippogrifs and Gargoyles obviously;

At tier 2 there are already helicopters,dragonhawks,gargoyls and hypogriffin/hypoarchers. Theres no outnumbering heavy units for them, they will still get shrekt by Wyrm/Dragons.

But dwarven riflemen are way better. NE Archers are also spamable and cheap. Upgrade is meh, makes them even more squishy.

-Edit: Ruin Night Elf players day by throwing nets at Channeling heroes, Net interrupts any channeling so you have a counter for Starfall.
Kek that is soo overpowered, goodbye stardust,healing rain,big bad voodoo, death N decay,mass teleport, earthquake

Conclusion: Orcs do not lack at all AA power, but their ground power is better and more obvious. They do require an actual effort to counter air units which is why it seems harder than the effortless undead AA.
They have many combinations possible like Endurance Aura + Blood Lust + Scroll Of Speed.

their AG is awful, and having a sonic army isnt a good thing.

Undead
They have two tactics either for ground based army web or the air superiority with gargoyles. Both are very easy to use and don't need micromanagement just attack focusing.
Undead air on the other hand I find lacking. Gargoyles in my opinion are not that good unless you want to invest in them but I prefer ground army more (they nerfed Crypt Fiends harshly ><). Frost Wyrm is too damn slow and expensive.

Human have Dragonhawks which I admit are are great AA units but they need management in greater numbers. Though humans do have some other probably underused choices like Gyrocopter massive AoE but undesirable damage and Siege Engine AA rockets but both seem to be aimed at destroying masses of light air units and not that effective to air units people will more likely spam.
As for air power well I find Griffins to be jack of all trades. Faster, cheaper than other Heavy air units but don't lack magical attack or AoE splash. Combine them with Dragonhawks and they are serious threat.

Not really why not just get Seige Engines which are essentially towers on wheels for the job? Or shit the sky with flying machines that are cheaper than dirt? Polymorph and lasso fugs big units. Human master race.

Night Elf Chimeras are honestly my favorite air to ground air unit. Insane damage, not that bad speed either and great range against buildings. Only lack air attack which is where archers and hippogrifs come.

>lategame
>expensive
>high upkeep
>slow movement and production speed
>defenceless against air
>ugly
>purple

nah m8
 
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Still not that spectacular there are plenty of ways to damage them even if mele backup is present.
Not supposed to be mother of all ranged units, they still preform their duty well.


Oh yeah i kinda forgot about their existance. Today i tried to cheese my way against the AI turtling off untill i managed to leach all of the goldmines and than attack them with a horde of demolishers, because i had previously tried assaulting the computer (2 FFA undead isane AIs) but the hawks/bats were no match for the gargoyle/wyrms nor the gazilion ziggarats and that pesky black citadel. So yeah the game ended a draw because my mines were drained, i had 71 gold in total and only one surviving peon. Didnt bother with Reiders because they are quite shait in my opinion. Ensnare is kidna good but they are mele seige units squishier than grunts. I get that well, they are raiders but the only thing they are good is an unprotected mine.

Sounds like your problem is lack of speed really.

I dont know, in my opinion he is the worst horde hero. Shock wave is just as good and an orb fixes the AA problem.

He isn't bad at all, he used to be best starter hero until TFT when Shadow Hunter came. He still can be great rush hero with wolves and Lightning hurts air units which shock wave does not.

Also are you implying that you use Tauren Chieftain as offensive hero when he is a tank/support?


Are they? flying machines wreck gargoyles because of their numbers and splash damage. Wyrms get snared by Dragonhawks and killed.... The only possible counter might be the Destroyers...but eh just zerg em with more helicopters.
Flying machines killing something sounds like an achievement and get useless by a simple web. Wyrms are vulnerable to AA that is obvious and Destroyers cost damn 5 food and I just can't see why.


Best raid is invisible knight into enemy base and mass teleporting archmage with a squad of seige engines and knights.

Don't be absurd, that requires late game and a level 6 hero. You should have won by then. Why even have knights, siege engines already are good at absorbing damage, better get more siege engines and destroy the base.

Bloodlust doesnt work on demolishers. Also the orcs have shit tier spells, most of them are useless or underpowered.

Auras do work on Demolishers. Also Bloodlust, Disenchant, Stasis Ward, Healing Ward and Tauren Resurrection are good spells. Purge is outdated spell but still useful I to slow down fleeing units, Sentry Ward is ok as you should keep an eye on the enemy, Lightning Shield serves to disrupt enemy lines (I don't like it still) and Spirit Link + Healing Ward is actually good combo. Orcs are also the only ones that have benefit of 3 caster units.
At tier 2 there are already helicopters,dragonhawks,gargoyls and hypogriffin/hypoarchers. Theres no outnumbering heavy units for them, they will still get shrekt by Wyrm/Dragons.

But dwarven riflemen are way better. NE Archers are also spamable and cheap. Upgrade is meh, makes them even more squishy.

And who exactly makes AA air units at tier when there are no heavy air units to counter. You still have advantage of massing Wind Riders tier before enemy can do the same with Griffins, Frost Wyrms and Chimeras. They aren't ideal but they are the only medium air unit.

I can't at the moment check the stats but I do believe that Headhunters outperform with their base damage both rifleman and archers. Archers have benefit of way more upgrades though.
their AG is awful, and having a sonic army isnt a good thing.

You are insane, their grounds units are good. And why is it not good to have a speed advantage, what kind of counter argument is that?
Not really why not just get Seige Engines which are essentially towers on wheels for the job? Or shit the sky with flying machines that are cheaper than dirt? Polymorph and lasso fugs big units. Human master race.

Because honestly I don't even bother with workshop in the first place. I rather use human magic and anti-magic superiority. Siege Engines are good no doubt but unless you plan to mass them and surprise the enemy you are wasting money on a unit that can't attack units directly. Gyrocopters are great if you are dirt poor (циганин), seriously why not make the master air unit the Griffins? Also if you are focusing on workshop then Polymoprh will come too late and it is countered by simple mass dispell that everyone by now has. Also undead are humans :)

>lategame
>expensive
>high upkeep
>slow movement and production speed
>defenceless against air
>ugly
>purple

Errr and Siege Engines are also expensive, high upkeep, sloooow, defenseless against units.

Also damn you for making me write this much.
 

Dr Super Good

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Yeah right, try microing the wounded one during the big fight among the other 5 bat riders. Also keep in mind they have less hp than a footman and even less armor. Also they do 140 AOE damage, 600 damage only to the primary target.
Tell that to the people who use a siege tank and a medevac in SC2. Micro better?

Still not that spectacular there are plenty of ways to damage them even if mele backup is present.
I would hope so! After all they are not meant to be rigged.

I dont know, in my opinion he is the worst horde hero. Shock wave is just as good and an orb fixes the AA problem.
None of Tauren Chieftains damage abilities work on Air. Chain Lightning does. Where as the Tauren can only damage air by attacking, the Far Seer and Witch Doctor both have abilities that can help.

Yeah...I forgot about this guy...well you see... Im a main the alliance.
Um what? What the heck is "main the alliance"? You saying you usually play Human? Or are you saying you mix Human and Night Elf? If so maybe do not play Orc?

Best raid is invisible knight into enemy base and mass teleporting archmage with a squad of seige engines and knights.
Only works on newbies who do not expect it. An Arcane Tower or Gem of Truesight and your knight is dead and the enemy is +resources on you.
Bloodlust doesnt work on demolishers. Also the orcs have shit tier spells, most of them are useless or underpowered.
If you are spamming Demolioshers which are intended for anti-building and some specific unit types you are doing something wrong. Try using Taurens or other living units which can be bloodlusted and inflict tons of pain.

At tier 2 there are already helicopters,dragonhawks,gargoyls and hypogriffin/hypoarchers. Theres no outnumbering heavy units for them, they will still get shrekt by Wyrm/Dragons.

But dwarven riflemen are way better. NE Archers are also spamable and cheap. Upgrade is meh, makes them even more squishy.
Wyrms are T3. Riflemen are weak glass cannon units which your hoard can easily crush. If you let your enemy amass an air fleet it is your fault for playing badly since Air is not that spamable and you can constantly pressure with ground (the strength of the Orcs). Unless they really amass a fleet of air, you can use 1-2 wolf raiders to kill it in combination of your ground forces.

Not really why not just get Seige Engines which are essentially towers on wheels for the job? Or shit the sky with flying machines that are cheaper than dirt? Polymorph and lasso fugs big units. Human master race.
Siege engines do not help you against Orcs because they are mostly ground already. Flying machines are pretty rubbish anyway and again will not help you much against the mostly ground Orcs.

If anything Human vs Orc is imbalanced in favour of the Orcs since Human ground is pretty terrible. Priest heal does not help too much in a battle as they focus your stuff down anyway. Inner sight does help but if the enemy has dispel kiss that goodbye. Knights are good and all but Taurens are better. Slow does help but after casting Slow a few times your sorceresses are nothing more than expensive cannon fodder. Riflemen deal mediocre damage at best and die easily. Mortar teams are great and all if your main source of damage, the Knight, was not melee so by running away the enemy makes you take all the damage. Even against the AI I usually have to rely on a Undead or Nightelf player to carry me vs Orcs at the start until I can amass heavy stuff.
 
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Oh by the way I am bored so I'll end with lil talk about towers. Actually kinda shame for the Wc3 gameplay topic to die, they are so rare.

Orcs towers aren't really that bad actually. Damage appears low but is the fastest tower, can be upgraded to actually have building armor and return damage.

Alternatively you have burrows who have decent damage but attack speed is measured by number of peons in it. Same upgrades as regular towers.
 
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Oh by the way I am bored so I'll end with lil talk about towers. Actually kinda shame for the Wc3 gameplay topic to die, they are so rare.

Orcs towers aren't really that bad actually. Damage appears low but is the fastest tower, can be upgraded to actually have building armor and return damage.

Alternatively you have burrows who have decent damage but attack speed is measured by number of peons in it. Same upgrades as regular towers.

Burrows are awful, you waste not only your food but worker capacity too. Watch towers should have building armor to begin with and the return damage upgrade is a joke. Every comander with an IQ above 37 will not attack orcish buildings mele but instead would rely on seige/ranged or atleast attack then apply healing to his troops.

Human master race.
 
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Burrows are awful, you waste not only your food but worker capacity too.

Of course burrow uses worker capacity, so does Call to Arms. It is defense mechanic not substitute tower. Potentially it is best defense mechanic compared to Call to Arms, Undead main building attack and night elf building melee damage. Call to Arms though is best offensive mechanic as you can creep before other races.

Watch towers should have building armor to begin with and the return damage upgrade is a joke. Every comander with an IQ above 37 will not attack orcish buildings mele but instead would rely on seige/ranged or atleast attack then apply healing to his troops.

Did you notice the armor of other towers? Watch Towers and Ancient Protectors aren't Fortified armor, they use unit Heavy armor. Also that counter works on ANY race. Towers being countered by their heavy counter means it is working as intended.

Human master race.

Really? So you are saying you don't use Dwarven Siege Engines, Gyrocopters, Griffins and Mortars or the Elven Casters? Also remember our little undead human mirror match? Human master race indeed...
 
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Pretty sure towers don't have building armor to counter tower rushing which was a very popular tactic in early wc3.

And why are you saying that demolishers can't be bloodlusted when I pointed out that wind riders with bloodlust are good anti-air in an anti-air thread?
 
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