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Advancing Glaciers

Submitted by Deserted
This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
[​IMG]
Advancing Glaciers
Created by Deserted

Story
Achieve victory before your reward is burried under ice and snow.

Tileset
Northrend + Lordaeron Winter

Features
Each player has expand right next to starting position;
Fountain of Mana in the middle;
No MercCamps;
Runes of Rebirth (2 x Forest Troll Shdow Priest, 2 x Polar Bear, 1 x Ice Troll Berserker) are present instead;
One-way Portals can be used to return from highgrounds.


Map Specifics
[​IMG] Players 2
[​IMG] Creep Camps 8 11 3
[​IMG] Taverns 1
[​IMG] Fountains of Mana 1 / 0 (LV)
[​IMG] Marketplaces 0 / 1 (LV)
[​IMG] Goblin Merchants 1
[​IMG] Goblin Labs 2
[​IMG] Gold Mines 14k x 3 + 11k x 2


Screenshots
Item Drops, Camp Levels and Runes of Rebirth
[​IMG]
Some Creep Routes
[​IMG]
Non-LV
[​IMG]


Changelog
v1.00 — Map uploaded
v1.01 — Natural was protected by two Ice Trolls and Rock Golem, now protected by Ice Troll, Arachnid Overlord and Arachnid Earth-Borer. Creeps at Fountain of Mana and the lategame expand have been weakened from LVL 28 and LVL 21 to LVL19 and LVL20 respectively. Landscape was simplified at certain places.
v1.04 — LV created. For LV Fountain of Mana changed to Marketplace. Fountain's creep camp moved north to Goblin Shop, Blue Drake replaced with Ice Troll Warlord. Marketplace is guarded by Polar Fudbolg Champion, Polar Fudbolg Shaman and Polar Fudbolg.
Contents

Advancing Glaciers (Map)

Advancing Glaciers LV (Map)

Reviews
Nudl9
Presentation: Your presentation is great. I love seeing plenty of screenshots and a detailled documentation. This is what melee players are looking for as well when downloading. Green Camps: The level 14 camp seems a little too juicy i think, could...
mafe
I'm somewhat confused as I thought I had reviewed this map already, but apparently we only talked about it on discord? Anyway. The map looks really cool (pun intended). Regarding gameplay: -Runes of rebirth: I dont really like them (see my guide...
  1. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Presentation:
    Your presentation is great.
    I love seeing plenty of screenshots and a detailled documentation.
    This is what melee players are looking for as well when downloading.

    Green Camps:
    The level 14 camp seems a little too juicy i think, could bump up the level to 15 or adjust it in other ways.
    A level 10 safe expansion is also way too easy for humans.
    Level 12-16 is the average, but you can sort of calculate it depending on how much duration milita has left until they get there.
    Less milita time = lower total level.
    Goblin shop needs anti-air.


    Red Camps:
    The red creep camps won't get crept at all, so you should reduce the levels down to 21 max.
    Except the one by the waygate, that one can stay.
    For smaller 1v1 maps the max level for a red camp is usually like 21, unless the camp has a high quantity of low level creeps.
    This level cap can be broken if the match duration extends 20+ minutes or so (Using Twisted Meadows as an example).

    Mana Fountain:
    With how hard the mana camp is, nobody will be able to creep it, but heroes that enjoy mana will be able to exploit it.
    Basicly blademaster can sip the mana juice and nobody else can unless they purchase an invisibility potion.
    So the players will take turns exploiting the mana and harass workers.
    That's how i would see people play this map.
    I could see the fountain be replaced by a marketplace with something like a level 20 camp.
    Alternatively remove fountain and have a level 6 creep + rune of rebirth.
    Which would be great for a final push with food capped.

    Exploits:
    Mana Fountain alredy mentioned.
    Green camp by waygate can be pulled into waygate, resulting in them trying to return and walking into enemy base.
    Level 10? dragon can be Hexed and exploited into enemy base.

    Gameplay:
    With several camps being at the center, it means that this will be an aggressive map with lots of conflicts over interest.
    It's hard to say how the gameplay will break down with this many things going on the map.
    One thing seems for sure, the juicy stuff seem to be in the top half, so that's where people will play.
    Mayb the middle expansion can be reduced to 18 so that a player could sneak in an expansion as a risky play.

    Terrain:
    The layout is pretty strong here.
    It's visually distinct.
    Good blend of open to closed areas.
    Visually speaking it's nice looking.
    Though i do feel like you use too many themes at once.
    Tree types could be reduced to 2 or maybe 3, i count like 6 different types here.
    In certain areas you use too many different texture titles in one place.
    Basicly just reduce the visually noise in some areas (see purple on attached picture)

    Overall:
    Strong layout, balance is a bit wonky, terrain could be simplified by subtraction of elements.
    Needs a few tweaks and it'll become good.
     

    Attached Files:

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  2. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    upload_2020-7-4_9-27-29.png

    I also agree that the mana fountain shouldnt be there.
    IMO: there should be a goblin merchant with a low level 12-14 creep
    because is ideal to have 2 goblin shops for tp scroll.
    if you see ruins of aszhara, players asked for a ladder version of the map with no mana fountains, so I would also consider not using fountains.

    the way-gates, cliff areas, I would just remove those, and cover it with trees
    waygates are not used in 1v1 ladder maps, so I sugest remove them

    great map btw
     
  3. Deserted

    Deserted

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    I don't want this creep camp to grant lvl2, so it must be low-level camp.
    I would be grateful for any idea how to make this amp stronger vs. HU without raising the amount of EXP.
    One again, I don't want light-blue creep route to provide lvl 3, so the amount of creeps is limited.
    Initially there was a mistake: bottom red camp is actually lvl21, not 24. I've corrected the image.
    So I've got one LVL21 creep camp (basicly copy of Northern Isles red camp), one LVL28 creep camp that consists of many low level creeps (lvl6 Drae being the strongest of them) and two LVL24 creep camps reserved for lategame activities.
    Or unless they wait for the night. All the creeps guarding the Fountain sleep at night.
    Initially, I wanted to compensate for natural being that easy to creep.
    When one player tries to establish early expand giving up control of the map, the other player is able to attack that expand having FoM in the back.
    xDDDDD
    That's interesting mechanic, but I can't see it's being abused becouse it requires Zeppelin, aslo the creep camp isn't that strong for the stage of the game Zeppelin becomes available, and creeps run towards base avoiding combat. They just want to get home ^_^
    Dragon is LVL6.
    I use different themes to separate locations. Winter terrain can be really boring.

    __________________________________

    I was thinking of Marketplace with weak guards dropping c3 item, so it can support early attacks toward expand.
    And then make guards of Goblin Shop harder.
    I want to ensure 30 min games are not to become boring. LVL24 camp serves that purpose. Waygates are just a way to get back in case of Zeppelin crash. I don't think one-way portals are hard for player to process, so there are no reason to avoid them.
     
  4. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    "so there are no reason to avoid them", yes players veto waygates.

    waygates are for the campaign play, there is no single 1v1 in ladder with waygates
    and also the standard way to use waygates is paired use so that you can go back, that was in the very old ladder maps of 2003
    wich are not being played now

    it annoys players to have such abrupt situation where like half army went to the way gate and the other half is in the cliff
    it is also annoying to not be able to get back if gate was used by mistake, like pursuing the enemy, it would be better to just put a free gob lab with no guards

    the only thing that can get this map a certain veto is the waygates stuff.

    I wont try to convince you any further, good luck.
     
  5. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Poison creeps or purge should work then.
    Gnoll Warden, Gnoll Assassin, Bandit Assassin lvl4.
    Poison creeps will attempt to poison all nearby enemies by one tapping them.
    Frost Shield can work too.

    Well the thing is Mana is the most valueable resource in the game.
    The level 3 charged mana potion for example is considered a game winning item.
    So imagine a game like this:

    Where MK gets free mana around 4 min from a fountain when it turns to night (or again infinite Wind Walks for Blademaster)
    Mana fountains are usually only in 4v4 because of how broken it is.
    If you want to make something against early pushes then a mercenary camp this close will do.

    Totally agree on this.
    Give players something to do that is better than hanging themselves when attacking enemy base.
    It's also a fun excuse to put in a high level item.

    Lol i think you're being a bit stubborn here WolfFarkas.
    I'm not a fan of waygates either, but i wouldn't know off the idea of using them entirely.
    The way they're used here doesn't present any major problems.
    The area is remote and locked off, plus it's a one-way so no teleporting back and forth.
     
  6. Deserted

    Deserted

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    The problem with those creeps is that they have meduim armor, they die instantly from militia.
    The most powerful combination I was able to find is Overlord Arachnid (lvl 5, Command aura) + Arachnid Earth-borer (lvl 4, Shadow strike, poison) + Ice Troll (lvl 2).
    Sometimes it deals the same amount of damage as (Rock Golem + 2xIceTroll) unless the player isn't able to avoid the second Shadow Strike. Additional Shadow Strike costs like half life of a footman. I need more testing though to tell what's better.

    Rock Golem shouldn't be undereatimated. It has Heavy Armor of 4, it lives long and deals a lot of damage with normal attacks and boulders.
    The huge plus for player trying to establish an early expansion though is Rock Golem is magic immune, so it's not gonna be stolen with DK's Coil or Warden's SS.
    Yeah, I know, since a hero gets lvl 3 FoM becomes a balance problem.
    But I wouldn't directly compare it to Mana Potion, cause it requires a lot of time spent. It's more like free Clarities, actually.
    Comparing all pros and cons I eventually decided to remove FoM from the map.
    I will probably support two versions, one with Fountain and one with Marketplace(?) instead.
     
  7. WolfFarkas

    WolfFarkas

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    there was a discussion of fountains between remo, tods, mafe, keito and knecht

    a half conclusion is that fountains are dangerous for balance atm,it was discussed that healing values was reduced from original, mana for BM, and health for mountain gigants
    but if they are placed in corners or far away from the mines, taverns and shops
    it could be more realistic

    while it can be sad to be limited to put fountains in corners or very far, is better than nothing like the dragon roost
    perhaps you could put the fountains in cliff for less exploits, I mean more harder for BM to reach it.

    and sorry for being stuborn, I do really like this map.
     
  8. mafe

    mafe

    Map Reviewer

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    I'm somewhat confused as I thought I had reviewed this map already, but apparently we only talked about it on discord?

    Anyway. The map looks really cool (pun intended). Regarding gameplay:
    -Runes of rebirth: I dont really like them (see my guide why). But they are used here in a sensible manner at least.
    -Items and creep seem balanced otherwise.
    -The highground areas and portals: To be honest, I think they are kinda gimmicky and probably wont be visited in 90% of all games. So I dont really mind. Iirc there used to be gold mines up there in previous versions? Definitely good that they're gone now.
    -Maybe the central area is too open, but not sure.
    -I didnt find an "intuitive" creeproute to lvl 2 that is somewhat safe for all races. There are lvl 6 creeps in combinations with armor buffs at all orange camps near the base, which are kinda hard for orc to take in particular. I'm not sure how I would change this, but I'm not really happy with the map in this respect yet. Maybe I'm missing something. For me, this is the biggest question mark right now.

    Overall, a good map with a lot of potential. Map approved.
     
  9. Deserted

    Deserted

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    Yes, I've shown initial map in about february. It was ready by may, but wasn't uploaded due to Warcraft's visual bug. About 2 months ago this bug was fixed.
    I wanted to make sure this map is ready for 30 minute games. Even if noone is willing to get up there for lvl 6 premanent, such possibility motivates players to engage.

    Yeah, those gold mines had no excuse to exist.
    The closest green camp + bear green camp north give exactly LVL2 and can be crept with only BM and 1 Grunt. 3 Grunts without a hero are also capable of that.

    By the way, this:
    is insanely strong for <200exp combination.