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[Discussion] About sustain supports vs burst dmg "supports"

Discussion in 'League of Legends' started by matchet, Sep 2, 2013.

  1. matchet

    matchet

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    Edit: Thanks to Deolrin for teaching me usefull bbcodes. now thread is more easy to read


    History of supporting from the begin to now

    I have been played since open beta, tons of severals years ago. Since this time, there was tons of changes and possible combos for the "meta" until S1 finals showed the world the most optimized way to play. Professional lanes and role compositions became a basic standard to follow.

    This "meta" is still the dominant way to play serious games. It is true that we have seen some modifications (like swapping toplane with bottom), but he core remains the same stablished years ago in the S1 tournament.

    Focusing in what is our main topic of discussion, initially there was only a few champions designed specially for supporting others and was recognized because his skills are focused on protecting, healing or helping allies than on making damage.

    With the past of the years, Riot monitorized botlane and with the leadership of Morello (silver league player, one of the initial workers in Riot Games, and a declared hater of heals "I consider it toxic for the game"), they said oversustain provided by supports plus his wards made botlane an isolated isle in which 2 players fight... for having better creep score than the other.
    For solving this problem, they nerfed clairvoyance until it becomes displaced by exhaust or even imaIgnite; and while developing a "new type of supports" they OVERnerfed all the heals (first looking on his raw numbers, then growing up a lot their mana costs, and finally adding a vast cooldown and nerfing by almost half or worse the AP ratio).

    Then, we saw a "new type of support" emerge: the burst dealer. With Leona as its main exponent, Morello and his team considered that a support would not be forced to have ally-based skills. They considered support everyone who could provide cc or enough burst dmg to delete enemies by their own in bottom lane.

    After that, others followed her as candidates (nautilus, volibear, sejuani, shen, and newly reborn blitzcrank for example) for this "new type". But since that, we have not see any real sustain supports but hybrids (nami's heal is poor in numbers and need enemy's interaction to being fully used, lulu have not heals but a shield which is temporary, as thresh which is more like an hybrid between leona and blitzcrank).


    The realty and the problematic of Sustain Vs burst/cc dealers
    It is a truth that these new supports DELETE the old "sustain" ones like if they were useless pieces of paper. So actually you can pick a soraka, alistar or sona for example, and be 75% sure you lost your lane if burst "support" like leona bc or thresh was picked by the enemy.

    So, what is the utility of champions based on heals and supporting his allies if they are so nerfed that he couldnt even protect their carries?
    Ill talk clear: I honestly think explosive damage and cc is a good counter for sustain supports, but makes no sense the fact that they arent even worth for protecting allies correctly.


    We have reach a point in which supports worths only for doing dmg to the enemy. Is this the real direction in which support role will go? Why dont just delete soraka from the game? Why dont doing sustain supports just fragile or not able for selfhealing but still REAL usefull for the team instead of overnerfing them?

    final thoughts from a Soraka's Ex-Main player

    Having your main regular spell with like half minute of cooldown is not funny. And having your heals' numbers as lows as you cant even save your teammates is not funny. Being deleted by absurd 999 dmg supports is still acceptable as effective counter, but not being able to protect your team from that dmg simply because your heals have 3x times less power than that leona's dmg, is definitively not fair
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  2. Deolrin

    Deolrin

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    1) You can delete your own posts by clicking "Go Advanced" and choosing "Delete this post".

    2) Use [HIDDEN="Click here!"]Hidden text![/HIDDEN] instead of spoiler tags. It should look like this:

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    3) Very interesting, but I don't think that "sustain" healers are no longer viable. Sona, for instance, is a good example of a viable sustain healer who can still deal lots of damage in lane, as well as having a very powerful utility(her ultimate). Finally, being a high silver\low gold player(currently Silver I, duoing with Gold Vs and such most of the time), I've seen plenty of sustain supports - and yes, even Soraka - win lanes, even against their high-burst "counters". However, I do agree that they have become much rarer, as less and less players play them, and that should be an indicator towards their current weakness - and I can only hope that Riot will look back at those champions and buff them back towards being viable.
     
  3. Steel_Stallion

    Steel_Stallion

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    That's just silly. They aren't weak, they just don't suite the current metagame right now. It happens every season and the metagame shifts to suite some champions over others, it doesn't mean Soraka is necessarily underpowered for example.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  4. Pharaoh_

    Pharaoh_

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    I have to agree with Steel_Stallion, I believe it's embracing the bigger picture here. I am almost certain that from time to time, the laning will change utterly. While the current "classical" setup is mid lane an ap champion (unless countering, e.g. Talon) and ADC with support, it may be possible in the future, with a few backup changes from Riot, to produce a result of mid lane being the adc and bot lane being ap carry and support. Soraka would eventually become even more vital than her current situation, since her passive would make more sense against an ap carry and her mana refresh as well.

    But still, I don't believe they are weak, it's just that the new supports offer more fun and the old ones are used in the same pattern against every support, which results in seemingly uneven fights. I can't really compare the complexity of Nami's spells and her mechanics to Soraka's Lineage II-type of casting: heal/mana or silence/heal. The former is much more interesting.
     
  5. Steel_Stallion

    Steel_Stallion

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    I'm telling you, Urgot/Soraka anti-carry lanes are going to make a come back. A good Urgot in that lane is fucking terrifying and the only way to counter it is, ironically, with a sustain lane.

    If you're ever duo and pubstomping with a friend, try out an Urgot/Soraka bot lane. It's very funny as very few people actually know how to deal with it. Sustain Urgot forever while he barrages them with Acid Hunters.
     
  6. matchet

    matchet

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    I'm still thinking that there are few or even penalizations for using supports focused on helping your allies instead of burst/cc dealers focused on disturb enemies.
    I mean, you can try to maintain your adc with high life after short fights inside lane, but this is completely useless if you are facing against any burst/cc dealer who deletes your absurd low max life in miliseconds or forces you to stay back and your utility is partially negated, exiting worse than the enemy (if not being killed) from that trade.

    What I am complaining is about these fact: as healing support you can be easily deleted, but if you stay back you are useless and your adc is being killed or negated farming. IMO, these supports could be countered by focus him/her, but could be strong for the allies if not focused.
    Would this make some supports like soraka enough powerfull because can stay very far away from battle while healing and stuff? then why not adjust his/her range to force her to stay more close in a battle? this leak on safety could open the door to some buffs focused on team utility. Dont you think?
     
  7. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    The problem why we don't see sustained supports is because the support role is now to zone out the enemy. You can zone out the enemy only by being a threat, that means either damage or cc.

    If you can't zone the enemy, the enemy will zone you, and your adc will be weaker.

    Now let's take a look at Soraka, she can't zone anything - end of discussion. :)
     
  8. Steel_Stallion

    Steel_Stallion

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    That's not true at all. There is only so far the enemy can zone you in the bottom lane. With a sustain support, you need an ADC that's capable of laying down harassment on his own. As long as you keep him up, he'll play aggressive and get himself the CS. Farming near your tower can actually be beneficial as it means you are much harder to gank.

    Winning bot lane is about outfarming your opponent. And there are sustain supports/adc champions that can do this really well, even if they are getting zoned by an aggressive Vayne/Leona lane or a Corki/Thresh or what have you.
     
  9. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    How do you farm near your tower if the enemy doesn't shove the lane. Case in point, I can just walk up with Leona and show myself as a threat and you will back out, missing CS. Point at which my ADC will just last hit, but never AOE to shove the lane.

    Sure you have a jungler who can help, but I also have a jungler who can counter gank, so let's leave junglers out of the discussion.

    If you're Soraka, and I'm MF + Leona, you are most likely dead.

    I admit Soraka does have some room in the lane phase. For example Soraka is an excellent counter to Alistar and Zyra. She can try and keep away a Leona, at most Soraka won't die, but if Leona engages it should be gg if Ignite available.

    The problem with Soraka, is also as you transition to lategame, she becomes more and more useless. As a support, your abilities never do get to scale with your items. Soraka is all about dragging the fight on till the enemy MR and HP are lower then yours, but in practice, that never happens, because in practice an Ahri/Zed/insert assassin here will catch one of your team mates and 100-0 him in 0.5 seconds.
     
  10. Kanadaj

    Kanadaj

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    The problem lies in the fact that Riot wanted a less defensive gameplay. This means that damages are increased compared to the life of the champions, effectively ruling out healing as a possibility. You can't 0-100 heal a tank, and even if you could do with your ADC, his/her life will go down again in another 0.5s.

    Also, if you want a burst support, take Xin or Panth. These guys pretty much mop the floor with any ADC, with or without a support.

    AP with support will never be viable. This is simply because of the way AP champions work. Imagine having to double lane against a Brand! But, as opposed to ADCs, who rely on their items mainly, AP carries heavily rely on their skills' base values. So they need exp more than items early on. Not to mention that double lane against many AP carries means that they kill 2 people instead of 1.

    Btw, there is an incoming meta change, since Riot wants to give waaay more gold to supports (and moderately more to junglers). This means more expensive jungle and support builds will be available soon, essentially unlocking more gold-requiring champions.
     
  11. Golden-Drake

    Golden-Drake

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    well i have to admit that Kanadaj is right.
    i have played duo with me as adc and xin support and so far we have not lost a lane yet (5 games).

    Xin provides an initiate that is not a skillshot (like leona) so it is garenteed that you initiate on the right target with no chance of failing. also his knockup on 3rd hit gives a fine CC (i would prefer 1 knockup > 0.75-1 sec stun, due to the fact that knockups stops movement spells such as corki's valkyrie or tristana's jump.)

    And xin will not be underfarmed later on if be builds items only focused on his survival (can't say that chances are he never gets underfarmed, but even so his ultimate and initiate is good even so.)
     
  12. Paliouras

    Paliouras

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    I totally agree with you but how is xin not underfarmed unless he gets adc's cs/kills?
     
  13. Golden-Drake

    Golden-Drake

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    well xin as support must be an agressive lane for it to work. also xin is not the most item-dependend for damage (due to passive) or survival (due to W), so going sightstone, ninja tabi/mercury's treads and locket is enough for him to sustain alot of damage, even tho it is somewhat alot of gold.

    i think we win the lane cause other people underestamate it, they think they can be on the agressive, but having knockups/armorreduction/slow x2 (exaust) really is all what a support needs and this guy is as tanky as leona (W/o Shield). and who would be on the agressive against a leona with heal and a E that always hit.
     
  14. Kanadaj

    Kanadaj

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    Plus he has waaay higher damage than Leona, so usually if he jumps in, a flash is burnt or someone dies. Usually that someone isn't Xin.

    Tried the same with my brother, me playing Ashe and him playing Pantheon. With that jump stun, anti-adc passive and the spear throw + Ashe's burst from her W is all more than enough to take someone down. And they even have this cute little wombo-combo of their ults that hurts like hell.
     
  15. Paliouras

    Paliouras

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    I see your point...I ll test him and see how it turns out