A message from ladder-land

[66Dragon6]

Hi I am 66Dragon6 currently ranked 17th in 4v4 Random Team Frozen Throne - Azeroth - 66Dragon6 - Player Profile

There is a gigantic problem in the world of warcraft3 about map-making. The melee maps used in the 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 and Free For All Ladders have been in the map pool for a long long time. Over time this has made playing the Melee Ladder very very stale and boring to play upon. Because of that there is a HUGE demand for new melee maps.

But there is an obstacle in the way of making new melee maps.

The type of mental processes that goes into making a melee map requires that you have a large vocabulary of the understanding on how to play warcraft 3 at a professional level. I dont know how I or anyone else would easily go about explaining to someone on how to play warcraft 3 tft at a professional level because it is such a complex and vast field of knowledge you have to attain which takes many many years.

Concordantly

The type of map making skills that a person needs to make a melee map is the exact opposite of how you learn how to play warcraft 3. In warcraft you must be analytical and think straight to the point using a selection of few options in a very very short ammount of time. To make a map I think you must be artistic and have an entirely different mindset in order to approach map making. Because you can take your time and use creative non-linear approaches to making a well-designed, aestetically pleaseing map. But since I dont know anyone that is ranked in warcraft that is good in making melee maps, and I assume that you dont have any posters here that is good in Warcraft the game itself there is a problem here of both sides not understanding how to do both at the same time with good positive results.

Because of that I want the map making community to start working on melee maps in connection with warcraft players more

Now you are probably going to direct me to epicwar.com and this website's melee map database to say that you guys do in fact make melee maps. Well i need to stress this and I dont mean it in an insulting way

THOSE MAPS SUCK HARD

If those maps were any decent they would be new ladder maps already, but they arent unfortunately. The only map I have ever seen that was good were (12)WorldofParadise a fantastically piece of art that rivals Michelangelo but is utterly useless in ladder since no one plays 6v6(except on kalimdor) and rarely plays big free for alls.

So here are some guidelines to make better maps

- Make them symmetrical, and if they are not symetrical, shape the map so that regardless which spot a player spawns in, that they have a fair chance of winning
- Dont make creeps block the battle, there is no strategical reason that a creep blocking you from your opponent
- Learn how to play warcraft 3, because if you dont know what unit goes where and how armies are build, for what reason, how its done, what the motivation behind it is, and what strategy it is used for you will never understand how to make a proper melee map
- Odd numbered player maps (3,5,7,9) arent used alot because no one knows how to make it so that it is fair on both sides. Plus just by looking at it they look wierd. Not that Im saying that odd number player maps are bad
- Make the placement of creeps reasonable so that it creates a path of creeping. Its pointless to make a map full of rocks and trees with only a few creep camps that takes 5 minutes to creep all of them just to leave you to do bland strategy-less fighting against your opponenet(s)
- 4v4 maps are the most important to make because it has the worse quality of maps out of all of them. Because the division of creeps are so very limited that you can barely creep a hero to level 3 which ususally happens in 5 minutes then it is off to fighting. Which there should be a balance between creeps and fighting like in 3v3 2v2 1v1 and ffa maps.
- The suggested players number that is listed on the maps today is a lie, Lost Temple has been used in the 1v1 map pool since reign of chaos and still has it written "Suggested Players: 2v2, ffa"
- The contents of every creep camp is important. Because the strength of each camp must be in a proper relation to the other creep camps on the map according to a reasonable standard that comes from the general health points that an army has at a specific time to kill the creeps at the strength you want. The items that are dropped from the creeps must be of a reasonable standard i.e no dropping of claws of attack +12 from an orange level creep camp, unless you shape the map so that it is reasonable to drop a claws attack +12 from an orange camp.


If you are a skilled enough map maker to make a reasonable map then your map will be more famous than DOTA automatically because more people play Warcraft on a daily basis than DOTA. Warcraft is literally shown on television in Korea and China and is streamed across the internet internationally in professional leagues. So what are you witing for? Lets do this!!!!

 

[Dr Super Good]

I am not really seeing how this has anything to do with this site. However you probably are still welcome to post this, but mybe this is the wrong section so it may be moved.

Personally, I find melee boring as it gets pretty "the same" fast. You use simlar strats all the time and respond to situations in a simlar way on simlar maps. Although this will fix one of the problems, that of the simlar maps, the maps still will only be playable a few dozen times before they get boring. I am aware that others shed an opposite opinion to me on this matter, but really I think WC3 melee was far too fast paced and simple when compaired to games like empire earth 1.

Anyway, I thought we had a few good custom melee maps in our map section...

 

[Pyritie]

So basically this is a request for more melee maps.

 

[Deathbringer]

Delete this post please =p got into rant mode.

 

[Hunting_Panda]

I think blizzard has to put up an official note for that and not some random player with 2 posts requesting it lol

 

[Rui]

Hello, and welcome to the Hive.

(...) The melee maps used in the 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 and Free For All Ladders have been in the map pool for a long long time. Over time this has made playing the Melee Ladder very very stale and boring to play upon. Because of that there is a HUGE demand for new melee maps.

The maps have indeed become boring, we haven't seen the set renovated for quite a long time.
Even though, the 1v1 and 2v2 sets are quite good, if you ask me. I don't usually play solo because those games can take a lot, and in 2v2 a noob ally screws the game for you. Still, you must be really addicted if you have grown so exhausted of the current solo maps. That is not a very good thing, if you ask me. Warcraft III is a game. Topping the tables is fun and all, but it's obviously not something you should dedicate your life to.

(...) To make a map I think you must be artistic and have an entirely different mindset in order to approach map making.

A melee map? Perhaps, but you also need to have at least a year of experience. If you read the critique to most of the melee maps on our database, you'll find that drops and creep choice are where the majority of them fail.

THOSE MAPS SUCK HARD

Thank you for the valuable input. I'm sure every melee map maker who reads that will benefit from the informative feedback.

If those maps were any decent they would be new ladder maps already (...)

Or not. Blizzard will most unlikely hook maps from fan sites and add them in their ladder map set. What would you do if suddenly you logged on Battle.Net and... Surprise Surprise, your map's on the ladder. That's cool and all, but who made it? Those things have to be done in a formal way. But then again, nobody from Blizzard will come here, create an account and send you a private message, because anyone can do that.

Blizzard did a mistake on the removal of certain good melee maps (I miss "(8)Twilight Ruins" the most). I'd rather have increased the number of maps on the ladder set, so that there's more variety.

If you are a skilled enough map maker to make a reasonable map then your map will be more famous than DOTA automatically because more people play Warcraft on a daily basis than DOTA. Warcraft is literally shown on television in Korea and China and is streamed across the internet internationally in professional leagues. So what are you witing for? Lets do this!!!!

Don't fantasize.
First of all, the comparison of a melee map to an AoS type is ridiculous - one has nothing to do with the other. Second, as history has shown, maps that are made specifically to compete with DotA end up not even being hosted at Battle.Net. Actually, everything that is made with the thought of competition never (or rarely) achieves anything.
Third, I could just pop in a random team game and say "Hey guys, did you know I made this map?!", but do you think anyone would believe me? Have you ever thought if people actually care for the map authors? Maybe, if there is a lack of products, which is the situation you described in your post. Apart from that, the player simply wants to make the name worth it: to play.

And again I mention: fame is fun at times, but not everyone who designs maps is interested in becoming an idol for the geeks. There are hundreds of things to do in life besides a game that is meant only to entertain people.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

If you could get some Blizzard backing that a well-made melee map would actually be made ladder, I have a feeling that a lot more people would be interested. As it stands, there is no incentive to doing it at all.

 

[66Dragon6]

I am not really seeing how this has anything to do with this site. However you probably are still welcome to post this, but mybe this is the wrong section so it may be moved.

I'm posting here because I think this is where all the map making pros are.

Anyway, I thought we had a few good custom melee maps in our map section...

I dont wanna be ignorant so plz link me these maps.

So basically this is a request for more melee maps.

yep

I think blizzard has to put up an official note for that and not some random player with 2 posts requesting it lol

Fair enough but blizzard has less enthusiam about warcraft 3 than I do. Because for about a year the ladder has been full of hackers that violate their own terms of agreement and they didnt do anything about it

Hello, and welcome to the Hive.

Hi

The maps have indeed become boring, we haven't seen the set renovated for quite a long time.
Even though, the 1v1 and 2v2 sets are quite good, if you ask me. I don't usually play solo because those games can take a lot, and in 2v2 a noob ally screws the game for you.

yep

Still, you must be really addicted if you have grown so exhausted of the current solo maps. That is not a very good thing, if you ask me. Warcraft III is a game. Topping the tables is fun and all, but it's obviously not something you should dedicate your life to.

Ur about 7000 games late with that suggestion =\

A melee map? Perhaps, but you also need to have at least a year of experience. If you read the critique to most of the melee maps on our database, you'll find that drops and creep choice are where the majority of them fail.

Both custom maps and melee maps, because while they require different scenarios is hard to write in a language that I cant understand

Ill look at these map critiques to get a better understanding.

Thank you for the valuable input. I'm sure every melee map maker who reads that will benefit from the informative feedback.

It was written to give my opinion on the current level of creation

Or not. Blizzard will most unlikely hook maps from fan sites and add them in their ladder map set.

Battle.net - Welcome to the Battle.net Web Site!

They did it ONCE, I hope they could do it again.

What would you do if suddenly you logged on Battle.Net and... Surprise Surprise, your map's on the ladder. That's cool and all, but who made it?

Well I suppose that it is possible to write in the bottom left hand corner the name or organization of who made it

Those things have to be done in a formal way. But then again, nobody from Blizzard will come here, create an account and send you a private message, because anyone can do that.

Correct, I hope there could be some people to initiate this instead of pointlessly waiting around hoping for them to give proper recognition to the map makers.

Blizzard did a mistake on the removal of certain good melee maps (I miss "(8)Twilight Ruins" the most). I'd rather have increased the number of maps on the ladder set, so that there's more variety.

correct

Don't fantasize.

too late

First of all, the comparison of a melee map to an AoS type is ridiculous - one has nothing to do with the other. Second, as history has shown, maps that are made specifically to compete with DotA end up not even being hosted at Battle.Net. Actually, everything that is made with the thought of competition never (or rarely) achieves anything.

I was just using it as an comparison because since Dota is popular. But popularity is a relative thing. That just making another melee map would automatically mean that your melee map/ song gets more "air time" over the airwaves that is battle.net. I played 123 games on deadlock in this patch ALONE. Deadlock is just another map in the map pool yet I play many many fun games on the map and would continue to play on that map given the chance to.

Third, I could just pop in a random team game and say "Hey guys, did you know I made this map?!", but do you think anyone would believe me? Have you ever thought if people actually care for the map authors? Maybe, if there is a lack of products, which is the situation you described in your post. Apart from that, the player simply wants to make the name worth it: to play.

Well just write the name in the bottom left hand corner "XXX @ Azeroth made this map"

And again I mention: fame is fun at times, but not everyone who designs maps is interested in becoming an idol for the geeks. There are hundreds of things to do in life besides a game that is meant only to entertain people.

uhuh

If you could get some Blizzard backing that a well-made melee map would actually be made ladder, I have a feeling that a lot more people would be interested. As it stands, there is no incentive to doing it at all.

I or someone else could probably get that done. It would be a 0.00001% chance that it could happen but it is possible.

 

[LordDz]

Well, if you made a concept, I'm sure we could do a map after that.
Hell, we could have it to be a melee contest.

 

[Xlightscreen]

ehh this is a pretty bad site to post about ladder or melee maps in general for most people here just play custom maps.

As for making melee maps, yes there is a need to make sure no one player gets a advantage but that kinda ruins the point of making your own maps. the reason why blizzard hardly gets new maps in there is because they don't want users complaining that it was something in the map that caused there downfall and not there skills. personally I would like the environment to be more of a factor in a melee match. I wouldn't mind not having the easier defended base as long as i got say a fast access to a goblin observatory or something like that.

 

[66Dragon6]

Well, if you made a concept, I'm sure we could do a map after that.
Hell, we could have it to be a melee contest.

k I maybe able to come up with something.

ehh this is a pretty bad site to post about ladder or melee maps in general for most people here just play custom maps.

This is like the only website on the net with mapmakers in it iirc

As for making melee maps, yes there is a need to make sure no one player gets a advantage but that kinda ruins the point of making your own maps. the reason why blizzard hardly gets new maps in there is because they don't want users complaining that it was something in the map that caused there downfall and not there skills. personally I would like the environment to be more of a factor in a melee match. I wouldn't mind not having the easier defended base as long as i got say a fast access to a goblin observatory or something like that.

I think the reason blizzard gets no new maps is because there simply isnt a culture for it, Starcraft:Brood War has a much better culture for melee maps so there are more maps. But then again it is much easier to make a starcraft melee map than a warcraft melee map.