Warhammer RTS - Ideas

[RiotZ]

Okay, I'm looking for some ideas to better improve my Warhammer map Reign of Terror, and at the moment I need a good 2v2 map format, based in the desert of Araby. A map format is a basic outline of obstructions, start locations, control points, water, and trees. I can't quite think of anything good myself, so I'd like to see what you idea gens can think of.

Here is a good example.

Format

I'm also looking for ideas for the wargear of all 3 races (Greenskins, Forces of Chaos, The Empire). At the moment I'm sticking mainly to lore, but there's room for revision of lore.

Here is my project signature, and link to the project this is regarding...

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/map-development-202/warhammer-reign-terror-217384/#post2163360

 

[Trillium]

Well, if you want your map to have Warhammer feel to it, you better use wargear from armybooks. Those items already have fitting names and stats =)

As for map features - if I recall correctly, there is such a feature as tactical points in WH, which grant victory points (or gold, in WC3), power dice (or mana regen), etc. Controlling points could be an interesting game.

 

[RiotZ]

Well, if you want your map to have Warhammer feel to it, you better use wargear from armybooks. Those items already have fitting names and stats =)

As for map features - if I recall correctly, there is such a feature as tactical points in WH, which grant victory points (or gold, in WC3), power dice (or mana regen), etc. Controlling points could be an interesting game.

They generate army points basically, to construct your units from production buildings... You also have a second resource for each race for Chaos it's Life Essence for the Empire it's Faith, and the Greenskins will have Waaagh.

Each race, (not sure about Greens yet), will be forced to decide on it's Doctrine or God, which will limit their tactical options, each will have a unique play style.

At the moment Chaos has Undivided, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch, pretty standard, but where I deviate from the norm, is the Empire has three doctrines, Support, Infantry and Inquisitory.

 

[cleavinghammer]

The Greens could be split as following Mork or Gork (either more ranged units and magic or tougher melee units) or with orcs (tougher but no stealth) or goblins (lots of stealth but not very durable).

What will the differences in Chaos forces be?

 

[RiotZ]

The Greens could be split as following Mork or Gork (either more ranged units and magic or tougher melee units) or with orcs (tougher but no stealth) or goblins (lots of stealth but not very durable).

What will the differences in Chaos forces be?

Well just the differences in gods... Undivided is very versatile, they have upgrades that make all their basic units like cavalry and infantry more effective in general combat, they also get an upgrade that allows Marauders to use Firebombs as a ranged attack.

Khorne is melee-centric obviously, boasting the best high-tier melee in the game, but costs your Warband the Chaos Sorcerer, and is completely devoid of any ranged units.

Tzeentch is for the micro master, fast, not-so-durable units that are all gimmicky in their own good way. It also buffs up the Sorcerer and still retains your bread-and-butter melee units like the Marauders and Warriors.

Slaanesh is probably the second most versatile, since it doesn't have a lot of drawbacks and has some good abilities that make your basic units more effective in the late run.

Nurgle just boasts very beefy melee, and some upgrades to your basic units, he is also very versatile, but once again completely devoid of any range, excluding the Sorcerer.


Slaanesh and Tzeentch are very far from complete, but Nurgle and Khorne are very near finished, and Undivided is completely finished, excluding maybe 1-2 upgrades.

I actually plan on releasing a super late, only 1-2 versions off beta, version of the map, in which both races are fully functional, the 3 maps are finished, the third being Lustria, and the AI for Chaos and the Empire are working somewhat well. This will be occurring very soon.


I think the Greens will have options to specialize certain units specifically, to constantly improve them... If I do Greenskins this way they will likely be the most versatile of the 3 races, but weakest in the early parts of the game.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Will they also have the option to forgo any kind of individual upgrade and just fill the map with greenskins in a great big Waaaaaagh! ? That should definitely be a possibility.

Also, may I suggest Nurglites get at least one ranged unit (like an acid spitter or something thats vomits corrosive juices on enemies).

 

[RiotZ]

Will they also have the option to forgo any kind of individual upgrade and just fill the map with greenskins in a great big Waaaaaagh! ? That should definitely be a possibility.

Also, may I suggest Nurglites get at least one ranged unit (like an acid spitter or something thats vomits corrosive juices on enemies).

Yeah I was thinking that as well but I don't think Nurgle has anything like that in lore.

Also Greenskins will certainly specialize in overwhelming the enemy.

 

[Trillium]

Well, you can interpret some of the deamonic spells as simple ranged attacks (or make them Searing Arrows-like spell, for the sake of lore) - Nurgle has some long-range diseases if memory serves me right. Too keep Nurgle still melee-oriented, you could limit those ranged spells by mana cost - so a nurglich caster could blast away at an enemy with his spells from range and then close in for melee.
(Maybe use transformation ability? Caster form would have those weak ranged attack and strong ranged spell; melee form would have great mana regen or, even better, mana regen on hit or smth like that. Blast approaching enemies from range, waste all mana, close in for melee, regenerate mana, blast fleeing enemies in the back from range. Plague for the Plague God!)

***

As for greens: don't recall how it's in FB, but in 40k Orks love to use and remake trophy weaponry. How about Orcs having medium-strong standart units and gaining short-time access to certain elite units after they kill a certain number of certain enemies?

For instance: your Greenskins face an imperial force and kill 12 Greatswords. then, the Greenskins gain an abiltity to build Armored Nobz (or w/e they are called) for 1 minute (basically reusing trophy heavy armour). (Alternatively - a limited number of elite units per unlock, in order to avoid barrack abuse. Or a combination of both.)
That would enforce aggressive play (fitting for Greenskins) and mass production of units (to best utilize the trophies). Also, WAAAGH! could be used to speed-up unit construction.

 

[RiotZ]

Well, you can interpret some of the deamonic spells as simple ranged attacks (or make them Searing Arrows-like spell, for the sake of lore) - Nurgle has some long-range diseases if memory serves me right. Too keep Nurgle still melee-oriented, you could limit those ranged spells by mana cost - so a nurglich caster could blast away at an enemy with his spells from range and then close in for melee.
(Maybe use transformation ability? Caster form would have those weak ranged attack and strong ranged spell; melee form would have great mana regen or, even better, mana regen on hit or smth like that. Blast approaching enemies from range, waste all mana, close in for melee, regenerate mana, blast fleeing enemies in the back from range. Plague for the Plague God!)

***

As for greens: don't recall how it's in FB, but in 40k Orks love to use and remake trophy weaponry. How about Orcs having medium-strong standart units and gaining short-time access to certain elite units after they kill a certain number of certain enemies?

For instance: your Greenskins face an imperial force and kill 12 Greatswords. then, the Greenskins gain an abiltity to build Armored Nobz (or w/e they are called) for 1 minute (basically reusing trophy heavy armour). (Alternatively - a limited number of elite units per unlock, in order to avoid barrack abuse. Or a combination of both.)
That would enforce aggressive play (fitting for Greenskins) and mass production of units (to best utilize the trophies). Also, WAAAGH! could be used to speed-up unit construction.

That idea for Orcs is really sick... I like it.

As far as Chaos ranged, the Sorcerer will pretty much be the ranged dps for Slaanesh, Tzeentch especially, and Nurgle. Khorne doesn't have any kind of ranged attacks at all. I may give the Plaguebearers an ability to vomit acids onto their enemies as a spell... But Chaos doesn't really have any core ranged in the map. Marauders with Firebombs are pretty tight, but they are only for undivided.

Edit: Just thought of Greenskins core mechanic for their macro... Units killed improve the killing unit/squad by 'looting the dead' they improve their own capabilities... So a tier 1 Orc Boy with 12 kills would be equivalent to an unupgraded Chaos Warrior. Also Greenskins will get Waaagh (their second resource) for doing different things, as opposed to having it generate like the other two races. Waaagh generation will be from kills, and current number of living units I believe... Every squad will generate maybe one point of Waaagh every 2 seconds... Whereas one kill will instantly generate a point of Waaagh.

Btw the 2v2 map is finished... And I'm going to release a beta within the next few days... Whenever I finish all the Gods/Doctrines where they are equally matched, I'll release the first beta.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Pretty sure Chaos forces can have horse archers or such. Pestilence (the Horseman of the Apocalypse, that is) is always represented as spreading disease with arrows, that could work.

 

[RiotZ]

Pretty sure Chaos forces can have horse archers or such. Pestilence (the Horseman of the Apocalypse, that is) is always represented as spreading disease with arrows, that could work.

Yeah but I'm trying to stick to lore... Marauders have two variations, one variation is Axe Throwers and the other is just standard melee. I switched it up and used Firebombs instead of Axe Throwers for the sake of balance, but I want to retain accuracy.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Given that you're making a Warhammer game using Warcraft units, I think a little distance from the lore isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Do Chaos forces get a Greater Daemon as an ultimate unit?

 

[Trillium]

Given that you're making a Warhammer game using Warcraft units, I think a little distance from the lore isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Do Chaos forces get a Greater Daemon as an ultimate unit?

they don't exactly look very different. not so much to justify noticeable deviations from lore.

 

[RiotZ]

Starcraft was intended as a Warhammer game, but Blizzard, could not get game workshop's copyrights. So I think it's conceivable Wacraft is fairly similar... I mean they're very similar if you really look at the races.

Yes the 4 gods have Greater Daemons are their ultimates, they aren't really, 'ultimate' but they are definitely helpful additions to your army.

The Bloodthrister has something like 2500 hp, 70 dps, and 35% vampirism on certain units.

Where GUO, (Great Unclean One) has like 2000 hp, 50 dps, 5 points of regen, -10 damage from ranged attacks, and Nurgle's Rot, a poisonous attack that deals damage over time to any unit hit by the GUO.

The Lord of Change is squishier than all other Daemons, being that he's just a super beefy ranged caster.

And as far as The Keeper of Secrets goes, I think she'll be fairly hard to kill, but more of a buffering unit, that increases the strength of surrounding allies.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Be sure to give the GUO the blight-creating ability.

 

[RiotZ]

Be sure to give the GUO the blight-creating ability.

Not familiar with that? Do you mean something from TBT, or blight from WC3? Because I'm not using any blight from WC3, just in Sylvania as terrain aesthetics.

 

[cleavinghammer]

The same way Archimonde spreads blight wherever he walks in WC3, it's a cool effect (and quite appropriate: even the grass dies wherever Nurgle passes).

 

[RiotZ]

The same way Archimonde spreads blight wherever he walks in WC3, it's a cool effect (and quite appropriate: even the grass dies wherever Nurgle passes).

That's a good idea... I think maybe there's a way where I can attach a slime trail.

 

[cleavinghammer]

You could even use it as an ability: Nurglite units regenerate/move faster when on the blight. Of course, you'll have to give the Empire a holy unit that dispels it.

 

[Trillium]

as far as I'm aware, Slaanesh is more about crowd control, than buffing. Keeper of Secrets should be crowd-control powerhouse, IMO. something like mass mind control or smth.

Maybe even automatically crowd control non-hero units that attack him (unless there is a hero nearby - simulate leadership check)

 

[RiotZ]

as far as I'm aware, Slaanesh is more about crowd control, than buffing. Keeper of Secrets should be crowd-control powerhouse, IMO. something like mass mind control or smth.

Maybe even automatically crowd control non-hero units that attack him (unless there is a hero nearby - simulate leadership check)

I never played TBT with Slaanesh, or did any research on him/her/it P)... But no one really specializes in crowd control so it could be good for balance.

I planned on giving KoS some deceptive abilities, so aoe mind control sounds tight.

 

[cleavinghammer]

S/he could have both control and buffing, combat drugs are the province of Slaanesh, after all. Throw in some illusion spells and s/he'll be good.

 

[RiotZ]

S/he could have both control and buffing, combat drugs are the province of Slaanesh, after all. Throw in some illusion spells and s/he'll be good.

Marauders already receive combat drugs as soon as you research Mark of Slaanesh... I plan for Exalted Heroes to get Doom Sirens, which slow all enemy targets in an area, but make the caster totally immobile.

Illusion is more Tzeentch's territory, I plan on giving the Lord of Change an ability called Body Double, where he temporarily takes the form of any targeted unit, with the exact stats of the unit.

I'm trying to decide how the Keeper of Secrets should roll... So far I have one planned ability which is Perversion, which will convert a targeted enemy squad for 15 seconds, and can target any units, even commanders. I liked Trillium's idea for some sort of debuffing crowd control defense for the KoS, but anything on attack seems pretty op... Like temporary stun, you'd end up getting raped if all your units targeted the KoS.

Thanks for all the ideas, they are really helpful, keep them coming.

 

[Trillium]

if you make MC-on-hit not passive, but active (a short-term self-buff) it wouldn't be so OP and would require good timing to make best use of it

alternatively, you can make it a regular buff, which would last only 1 second or so, and could be cast only on allied heroes - basically a life-saver.


As for Tzeentch. He's the god of pure chaos, in a way - how about his LoC or some other hero casting random spells only - they would have to be a bit more powerful to compensate, but randomness would be fun. Would also add some risk to Tzeetch's spellcasting - e.g. wanted to summon a firewyrm, decimated both armies with a firestorm =)

 

[RiotZ]

if you make MC-on-hit not passive, but active (a short-term self-buff) it wouldn't be so OP and would require good timing to make best use of it

alternatively, you can make it a regular buff, which would last only 1 second or so, and could be cast only on allied heroes - basically a life-saver.


As for Tzeentch. He's the god of pure chaos, in a way - how about his LoC or some other hero casting random spells only - they would have to be a bit more powerful to compensate, but randomness would be fun. Would also add some risk to Tzeetch's spellcasting - e.g. wanted to summon a firewyrm, decimated both armies with a firestorm =)

I like the randomness factor... I will include something like that. The sorcerer already has an ability that deals his mana pool in damage to a target enemy, but has a chance to kill both himself and the target.

What is MC?

 

[Trillium]

Mind Control

 

[RiotZ]

Mind Control

Ah, active mind control... Maybe... But I've already added the ability, which is relatively powerful depending on how you use it.

Perversion, takes control of a target squad for 15 seconds and dispatches the squad after the set time has elapsed.

Could be overpowered for sniping commanders...

Btw, if either of you want to test the map PM me... I'm on all servers on Battle.net and Garena, and need some testers to play with. I keep saying I'm going to release it very soon, but there are so many small things to fix up before a big release... So I plan on releasing it between Sunday and Monday, no later.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Actually, maybe all Chaos forces should have a bit of randomness (not to the degree of Tzeentchians, of course), like a chance for a strong unit to suddenly lose all his armor so the enemy gets some stronger hits in (Khorne cares not from where the blood flows etc.).

Or have a kill count that allows you to use unique abilities/summons etc. that goes up if both your units and the enemy's die (but faster for enemies).

 

[RiotZ]

Actually, maybe all Chaos forces should have a bit of randomness (not to the degree of Tzeentchians, of course), like a chance for a strong unit to suddenly lose all his armor so the enemy gets some stronger hits in (Khorne cares not from where the blood flows etc.).

Or have a kill count that allows you to use unique abilities/summons etc. that goes up if both your units and the enemy's die (but faster for enemies).

Well I was pondering giving Khorne bonuses for every kill you earn, kind of like an aggro bar... But that's Greenskin territory imo.

The skins will get stronger with each point of Waaagh, which will be earned from choppin' 'n lootin'.