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[Role Playing Game] Warchasers Revamped

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Raen7, May 15, 2018.

  1. Raen7

    Raen7

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    Folks, my first renewed interest in WC3 mapping since the old days. I took Bribe's 'remastered' Warchasers and tweaked it a bit more to my liking. I wanted to keep the spirit and idea of the original, and just build on it a little more, and fix some minor annoyances along the way.

    I tried balancing the heroes by giving them all at least 1 summoning ability (aka "meat shields") and rejiggering some other abilities. In the standard 25-level hero scheme, you get your 3 "standard" abilities at 5 levels each, plus a 3-level ultimate and the attribute-bonus to fill out the rest. I also made some edits to the item-drops and even added just a couple custom ones for fun. And I kept all the ability hotkeys on the left side of the keyboard.

    Most importantly, I used up all that empty space to add two whole new expansion areas with big bad creeps (complete with auto-spawners) to get your grind on! The problem here is that the creep-camps are so close to each other, they often "call for help" across the wall, despite the obscene amount of LOS-Blockers I put up. So hopefully someone has some ideas on how I might prevent that. Tank-run also replaced with more mobs and auto-spawners.

    I'm very open to suggestions and feedback, especially about hero /item /creep balancing. I left some of the testing triggers enabled in case that's helpful. Big thanks to Blizzard for the original, and to Bribe's remaster. This ain't much, but it was a fun little project and learning experience. Fellow mappers, please feel free to use it and edit it yourselves!

    -----

    UPDATE: v0.9997 - HUGE thanks to you guys for feedback! Difficulty settings implemented with dynamic scaling for # of players and voting system for base setting. See latest thread post for other updates. I've still left a LOT of the debug-messages enabled (displayed) so don't panic when you see a wall of text -- it's just triggers showing what they're doing. Before the next release I will turn those off. Reduced damage-increase factor for difficulty ratings per suggestion, and implemented "every 100 kills - Rank up" where it adds a slight HP increase to monsters.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  2. Bribe

    Bribe

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    That's funny because I also have a Warchasers map from 8 or 9 years ago with similar modification (ie. adding to the empty areas and giving the tank Wind Walk).

    WarChasers II: Vengeance

    You'll need WEU to open the map or the NewGen extension "integrate WEU" enabled (needs restart).
     
  3. Raen7

    Raen7

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    Yeah buddy! I tried that one too (just played a bit); nice job. You put in a LOT more work than I did, heh. ;-)
     
  4. Raen7

    Raen7

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    UPDATE: v0.997 - replaced tank-run with a dozen or so creep-spawns, including a formidable Naga camp. Small tweaks for early item-drops & other minor fixes. Have fun!

    @Bribe Did you have any good advice for making the creeps that are close by (yet separated by a wall) NOT co-op/call-for-help?
     
  5. Bribe

    Bribe

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    Reduce the creep call for help radius in object editor or gameplay constants.
     
  6. Raen7

    Raen7

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    That would require them to be owned by Neutral Hostile, instead of Player 12, huh? Yeah, I set it to 300 but I guess that's still too big. I also tried setting their Acquisition Range at '200/camp' to start, and then using a "enters location" trigger to change it to 500 when a player hero gets close enough. That sometimes seems a bit delayed tho-- like, I'll be literally stepping on their toes before they wake up and attack me. =P Thanks!!
     
  7. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    I actually quite liked the tank run... but that's only because once you realize you can cheese it with summons it is not a challenge anymore. I think if you revamped the tank run it would be cooler, unless the creep camps you replaced it with provide an interesting challenge themselves.

    If you're literally just revamping WarChasers then you're probably doing the right thing, but if you want to evolve it then consider adding more interesting creep abilities, items and hero abilities to the game. The creep spawners in WarChasers is one of its memorable features, perhaps you could expand upon it somehow. One thing WarChasers suffers from is lack of replayability, perhaps you could add random elements to it (random spawns, random events, bla bla)
     
  8. MrAsD

    MrAsD

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    I dont know if this map was made to solo, but i played archer and solo it, its fine but the late game of some heros are OP, just make stronger the creeps or maybe nerf some late game champs, for tank run i used wind walk and rush into boss, because its imposible to solo
     
  9. Raen7

    Raen7

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    @MrAsD Hi there! Thank you so much for playing!! I appreciate the feedback very much. I will make an effort to up the difficulty of late game spawns and the boss. Thanks again! <3

    @pick-a-chew Thanks for your feedback as well. If you meant that you send summons into the tank run from the high ground before you actually become a tank — yeah, that was me too. It seemed silly to have to resort to that. That’s why I originally gave the tanks wind walk, so you could effectively just bypass the whole thing (as MrAsD played it); but again, I felt that was just more wasted space, so I put in a bunch of creep spawns instead. But you’re right, I did not really add anything new here, just more of the same, albeit a few air spawns. I’m curious what you mean by “random events” and “expanding upon the spawners”.

    Cheers mates!
     
  10. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    Random events could be things like an enemy assassin spawns suddenly and ambushes you, perhaps objects randomly generated at game start could be interacted with such as randomly spawned chests, traps, NPCs, maybe you randomly get positive buffs from time to time. Random stuff like that.

    The spawner system in WarChasers has much potential. A few months ago i actually explored this and could do things like:
    1. Randomize Spawner Building
    2. Randomize Spawner Minions
    3. Make spawners create a variety of units
    4. Give Spawners an "Affix" (e.g. mobs spawned have HP regen, or invis, extra DMG, or other things as a random modifier)
    5. Improved Spawner Loot (give spawners a detailed loot table)
    Not saying you need to do all of them, but the above would help make each game different and refreshing.

    A problem with the old WarChasers is monsters spawned from them give EXP which leads to (especially in the early game) farming them which is pretty boring (i always avoid this but farming the early EXP is the superior strategy). Instead you could make spawned enemies give 0 EXP but make spawners give a huge EXP reward.
     
  11. Raen7

    Raen7

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    I like your ideas @pick-a-chew ! I'm an endless 'tweak'-er; I've been nit-picking all the little details but not really trying to add anything brand-new. Those are definitely worth some thought. =)

    I have uploaded version 0.999, with 2 new heroes (well, 1 was there as a surprise already, but now they're both out in the open). Lots of little fixes and edits, including better trigger comments and region names -- naming consistency in general. Archer was OP, as @MrAsD said; gave it a slight nerf. Hopefully all that's left is final hero balancing, and then I can get to 1.0!
     
  12. Napoqe

    Napoqe

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    I tested the map and I think it fun, I liked the replacement of the tank area by spawners. However, I wish to improve this map. I took some screenshots to report some errors also.

    I'll here to suggest some actions for you to do:

    • Adds talent trees to heroes, to have more personalized experiences.
    • Bosses have combat system strategies to defeat them with any hero.
    • Add places that make it available to hire mercenaries. I have versions of Warchasers in Epicwar, I liked them. Only be able to hire a mercenary if playing has to play alone.
    • Remove from the stores the item of reincarnation to care item and make more game difficult. Bosses drop one of that item.
    • Change the Giant's ultimate. The Giant in the classic version I think it has no summon. In your version its has two, small and large golems. Leave reference of the powerful and great golem with own hero.
    • Limits the sale of books of attribute, so it will not be easy to defeat the enemies.
    • Leave, I think it harder to find the new secret areas that you did I think.
    • Add information about orb effect to all item have.
    I played with a Giant hero, at beginning it was difficult (the hero died once), but in the middle and at the end of the match stay easy to finish.

    WC3ScreenShot_061018_042957_01.jpg

    WC3ScreenShot_061018_051524_02.jpg
     

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  13. Raen7

    Raen7

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    Hi @Napoqe , thank you so much for taking the time to play-test my map! I appreciate it very much, and I enjoyed all of your feedback and suggestions.
    • "Talent trees" and "combat systems" are a bit beyond my scope here. The bosses are all pretty kill-able with any hero, as far as I can tell.
    • Mercs, interesting idea. I've made it so that you can add Computer players and fully control their units, so that's a way to go single-player with a small team instead of all by your lonesome.
    • I think you're right about the Ankhs, I will remove them from the shops. I will also increase the price and cooldown of the Tomes in the Barnes&Noble shop.
    • For the "secret" areas, you obviously found one if you found the shop with Tomes (books of attribute). The other is less obvious but it's just below the final run, below the "Magic Box" area. I might put in a terrain arrow as I did with the first one.
    • I'm not sure what "orb effect items" are lacking information... could you elaborate?
    • Iron Giant ultimate - do you have a suggestion for a different Ultimate?
    Again, thank you very much for your time! This is great stuff.

    I'm working on Version 1.0 with a fully dynamic difficulty system where the spawns and creeps multiply based on the size of your team -- i.e. if you play with 2 heroes, you get 2x the spawns (kinda; it's more of a sliding scale but to keep it simple we'll say about 2x), if 3 heroes, 3x spawns (ish), etc. I hope that makes it more enjoyable.

    And I'm still hearing that it's too easy toward the end, so, I will attempt to fix that and make it more challenging. Thanks everybody!
     
  14. Napoqe

    Napoqe

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    Do you know about the mechanics of orbs effect?

    What orb on exits another ... Example: Having a lifesteal orb item and another item with orb to reduce armor, lifesteal will void the second and only lifesteal will work. There are errors in Warcraft 3 that is different on the ranged and melee condition. Ice Orb, works along with lifesteal for long-range hero, no for melee.
    On your map and in the standard melee, it lacks information that has 2 orbs, only one will work, or some attack to stop working completely, example Luna of the Dota 1. Or exception that said earlier on Ice, I think.

    More some suggestions:

    • Potions can accumulate in a single slot. For me the potions were useless in the middle and at the end of the game. If can accumulate them in one slot will be more valued.
    • The stores, taking away the books. Have useful items and at least one very powerful.
    • Make the Tank Guardian a boss.
    • Improve and decrease the amount of units invoked (the skeletons can totally block a path, it's are boring to control them and are weak) with the dead's book.
    • Make the guardian of the first key a boss. I think it more hard than the first Pit Lord.
    • Making hell harder for someone who intentionally killed someone in heaven.
     
  15. Raen7

    Raen7

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    An update for you intrepid readers! After a brief hiatus from this map, wherein I spent some time working on a tutorial over here, and a "turtle-melee" map wherein I played with scaling standard heroes up to level 50 and farted around with custom upgrades.. look for that in the future.. I'm back! And very close to releasing Version 1.0. Here's a summary of the changes to look forward to:

    1. Dynamic difficulty based on # of players (# of Heroes), including if you use a Computer teammate
      • Auto-spawner frequency increases
      • Static (pre-placed) spawns and one-time spawns are replicated
      • Bosses level-up based on # of Heroes
      • Guard towers get upgraded HP & Dmg based on # of Heroes
    2. General difficulty increases in some areas, notably middle & end
      • Hell gets extra monsters if players killed a cherub in Heaven
    3. Minor layout touch-ups and trigger clean-ups
    4. Better "Flow"
      • Meaning, pausing creeps that you're not yet meant to fight (i.e. over walls between areas), then un-pausing them when appropriate.
    5. Better & more balanced Final Boss abilities & spawns
    What's still in progress:
    1. More difficulty adjustments via upgrades/auras, to make creeps themselves more difficult, hopefully with a player-selectable scale (easy medium hard).
    2. Replacing late-game potion drops with something more sensible -- I'm thinking Rune-based items (no need to take up inventory), such as runes of healing/mana/armor/attack etc., scaled up to the levels that we expect Heroes to be at.
    3. I'm thinking I need to switch the ultimates of IronGiant & GoblinMech; GoblinMech (Shredder) only has the Sappers summon, so his ultimate could be a big summon, whereas Avatar is more suitable for IronGiant.
    4. Late-game shop items: remove Ankhs, Tomes; add some other "relic"/high-level items
    What I will NOT be doing, at least not for V 1.0 :
    • Stacking potions: While there is a nice tutorial on it, I believe I can get it over the hump with Runes, as stated above.
    • Significantly changing any heroes: They're pretty much set and themed how I want them, with the exception of the two mentioned above.
    Open to any other suggestions! (Even if I shoot them down with an explanation, har har har) :p
     
  16. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    1. I am not really sure if any of that is necessary... you should just use the natives to scale monster HP and DMG based on player number. Because:
      • If spawner is faster than your killing rate you just kill the spawner or kite away
      • This will lead to clustering issues... monster density in some areas is already very high. This would make the problem worse.
      • That doesn't really mean much... all it means is that you have to tune attribute gains properly.
      • Basically what i already suggested but apply this to EVERYTHING and do it via the new natives.
    2. The game is indeed to easy:
      • Hell was laughable (solo'd as crypt king).
      • Once your character reaches critical mass the game just becomes face roll.
      • Some item drops are overpowered (orb of corruption, spell immunity keg thing).
      • Regeneration isn't really a limiting factor for some reason, did you up the regen from int?
      • If you get to a "hard part" (not that there really is any) you can just disengage - makes the flow of the game generally unchallenging - consider "trapping" players or adding slows/roots/ensnares to mobs etc.
    3. Some areas are clustered with mobs. If you play as a summoner its even worse. Consider monster quality over quantity.
    4. I like this. Annoying when mobs attack you through walls.
    5. Final Boss is indeed boring & easy and could use some exciting mechanics.

    1. DON'T do it via auras as this will devalue player abilities that slow/reduce damage. Upgrades is fine but why not just have 1 trigger do everything?
    2. Potions are actually fine IMO but runes would be better. What's worse is the summoning items. Those should be runes too. Unless the difficulty is amazingly upped there's never a need to hold onto an item that summons. They were useful in the original for the tank bit but since that's gone all they're useful for is temporary meat shields.
    3. Haven't played those ones so no comment.
    4. The problem WarChasers has is item spam. You're always trying to find an upgrade to replace an item you're already holding. Having buyable items will diminish the "finding good loot" aspect of the game, and will probably make most item drops obsolete, which is bad in my opinion. Instead you should consider "special drops" as a random chance, or from bosses, or both.
     
  17. Raen7

    Raen7

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    Can you explain what you mean by this? It doesn't sound like something I've "discovered" yet...
     
  18. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    With 1.29 you can set the Max HP and Base DMG of units with a trigger function. So if for example you wanted monster HP/DMG to be like this:

    • 1 Player = 100% HP, 100% DMG
    • 2 Player = 150% HP, 125% DMG
    • 3 Player = 200% HP, 150% DMG
    • 4 Player = 250% HP, 175% DMG
    You could pick every unit owned by game start and set the monster's max HP and base DMG to a percentage of its current.

    On top of that you can then add your difficulty adjustments, e.g. Easy = -50% HP, -25% DMG, Hard +50% HP, +25% DMG etc. And when a player leaves, you can dynamically update monster HP/DMG to accommodate for this. Potentially allows players to increase difficulty mid-game if they're finding it easy.

    By using them you have complete control and allows you to balance around both player number AND game difficulty (extremely difficult to do this properly with upgrades/auras).
     
  19. Raen7

    Raen7

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    Oh HECK YES. Thank you for the idea my man! Now, I’ll have to play with it, but I’m wondering, can it be pre-applied to the spawned monsters too, like as a player setting for player 12? Or will I have to apply it to each and every spawn as they get created? Either way, I’m excited to check this out, and it sounds way simpler than auras. Thanks for the excellent tip!

    Yep, ramping up the difficulty as players progress was definitely on my thought-list too. Maybe based on total kills or total hero stats or something.

    And thank you for all your detailed feedback as well; I will take all of it to heart and see abt I can do about the overall cheese-ness, the items*, and the boss. I really appreciate the time and ideas! Especially the whole different direction of quality over quantity.. very good way of thinking about it.

    *Yeah, I knew the Keg Supreme was cheese when I made it, but I decided it was kinda cute. And the base hp/mana regen rates for all heroes were increased in the original Warchasers; I didn’t modify them beyond that. They are a bit high but.. I dunno if it makes a huge difference?

    As with any project, it does seem like I’ll be stuck at pre-1.0 for a long time, but hey, that’s part of the fun.
     
  20. pick-a-chew

    pick-a-chew

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    When i use such systems i use a "Unit Enters Playable Map Area" trigger and set their HP/DMG then. In this trigger you can filter out units you don't want scaled. You will find when you use Set Max HP the current HP of the unit is not adjusted, so after using the function you should set the HP to 100% or to whatever % it was before the Max HP increase (e.g. a unit with 1/1 HP that gets 1000 more max HP will have 1/1001 HP).

    Regeneration for Warchasers/Dungeon Crawlers is a difficult topic tbh, you don't want to AFK for 10 mins to regenerate resources but at the same time if you regenerate too quickly you can spam spells without worrying about mana. I only brought it up as i was surprised i was regenerating what felt like 100 mana every 5 seconds by the end-game, which basically meant i could spam spells endlessly. If anything the problem was probably caused by high max mana as the more mana you have, the less likely you are to go oom during combat and the more mana you can regenerate and pool in between fights.

    Anyways, good luck, definitely had some fun playing it. Hope to see some updates in the future!