[Role Playing Game] Unnamed ORPG Map

[sentrywiz]

Me and an irl friend are making an ORPG map. He is more into the story aspect and I am more (or all) into the mechanics and game aspect.

So far we've made story enough for 5 expansions, or patches as this will be an ORPG map as the likes of TKOK, Gaias and others, however it will be story driven. The story is constantly evolving and we're polishing it up via many coffee sessions.

But the story aside, all the map development falls to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about it, even if I have to do all of it myself. But I'd like to get some helpful pointers about certain stuff from you, individuals of the community about things that I am in conflict with myself.


I have a problem with decisions. The more I learn, the less power have over my decisions, because I can make lot more. Idk if other map makers have this problem, but for me this is a big deal. Maybe I take stuff too seriously and want them to be perfect. And yet they never tend to be to either make or play at. I plan for everything from the get go and then fall short when it comes to making it, because I see how much I have to do.

Q1 - Do Talent Trees add to the experience?
- I started with this mandatory thing that I must make mastery trees. But as the story went on, so did my imagination of the races, classes, traits etc. At the moment, I feel like in the long run, mastery trees will become a burden to overcome, but I can't just decide to not do em, because they look and feel so epic. What is your perception of mastery trees? Do they add to the game via aesthetics and design, or are they just a waste of time?

Q1a - Talent Tree Choice or Path to follow?
I've noticed from myself that when I played WoW, I adored the feeling of mastery trees and the grand choice they provide. And yet, whatever the class I always googled for the "best build". What's the point of many mastery trees if people always go for the "best build" and ignore the freedom of choice. In which case, from my point of view, a single mastery tree with 7 spells and some upgrades for them might be better than 3 mastery trees with ton of options. So is lot of choice a bad thing in your view? Are you more happy with a predetermined path to follow, only decide how to choose it? Is overwhelming choice a burden for you or do you love that?

Q2 - Do complex abilities make the game more fun?
- To people that know me and my maps, they probably know that I am a KISS (keep it simple stupid) person. Simple effects, abilities, stats... an overall easier and simpler game experiences to try and master. But I cannot say complex is bad and not needed. Especially in games where complexity is their driving force. What do you think about this? Do you find complexity good, challenging or do you find yourself more into the simple stuff?

Q3 - Hit and run OR Hotkey Mash Boss Fights?
- Bosses have always been a great way to challenge the players into perfecting their team work, their masteries, their spells, items and overall give them a challenge to min max. And yet, from all the bosses with huge sequences of events and phases, I cannot simply ignore the simple bosses that require 1 tactic but punish you if you miss it. What do you think about this? What kind of boss fights do you like the most? Why?




Thanks to all that have or will decide to take portion of their time to comment

 

[Zwiebelchen]

All of your questions can be given the same answer:

"If it's implemented good."


For example, talent trees are useless if the choices can make don't matter to succeed in the game (in other words if your game is too easy) or if the choices are just an illusion of choice (there is always one option that is clearly superior to the other talent).
--> Talent trees only make sense if you really nail the balancing

Complexity vs. Simplicity depends on how well you introduce players to your concepts. A highly complex system can be as intuitive as a non-complex system, if you do it right. This is something that comes with experience, though. As a rule of thumb, introduce complex concepts one by one, never all at the same time. Gate your systems by level. For example, don't allow the players to pick talents before the 10th level or don't allow them to learn professions before a certain level.

About hit & run and button mashing: Keep in mind that a multiplayer RPG will not be hosted locally. You can expect at least a 100-130ms delay in inter-continental Bnet sessions.

 

[sentrywiz]

All of your questions can be given the same answer:

"If it's implemented good."


For example, talent trees are useless if the choices can make don't matter to succeed in the game (in other words if your game is too easy) or if the choices are just an illusion of choice (there is always one option that is clearly superior to the other talent).
--> Talent trees only make sense if you really nail the balancing

Complexity vs. Simplicity depends on how well you introduce players to your concepts. A highly complex system can be as intuitive as a non-complex system, if you do it right. This is something that comes with experience, though. As a rule of thumb, introduce complex concepts one by one, never all at the same time. Gate your systems by level. For example, don't allow the players to pick talents before the 10th level or don't allow them to learn professions before a certain level.

About hit & run and button mashing: Keep in mind that a multiplayer RPG will not be hosted locally. You can expect at least a 100-130ms delay in inter-continental Bnet sessions.

Thanks for the feedback.

Though "if its implemented good" is as relative as ice cream flavors. Its impossible to cater to each player's view of "good implementation". Not sure if I can draw something useful from this.

Yes, that's how it is. Talents lead to other talents that empower the previous talent or grant something extra in addition. Its never a pick all from the start.

The BNet advice is great, I wouldn't have thought of it. Thanks

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Though "if its implemented good" is as relative as ice cream flavors.

That was the whole point behind that comment. Vague questions get vague answers.

From my experience with mapping, I can tell you that technically good approaches to complex systems require a lot of effort from the programming side. It's not something a new mapper would be able to pull of right from the get-go.

In fact, if you're new to mapping, I highly recommend not starting with an RPG. RPGs have the longest developement time and the highest skill requirement for the mapper (not only from a technical POV, but also in terms of planning ahead). Start with something simpler for your first project.

 

[Nordmar]

How did you decide? I am kinda curious.

 

[sentrywiz]

That was the whole point behind that comment. Vague questions get vague answers.

From my experience with mapping, I can tell you that technically good approaches to complex systems require a lot of effort from the programming side. It's not something a new mapper would be able to pull of right from the get-go.

In fact, if you're new to mapping, I highly recommend not starting with an RPG. RPGs have the longest developement time and the highest skill requirement for the mapper (not only from a technical POV, but also in terms of planning ahead). Start with something simpler for your first project.

Do I look like a beginner to you? I have lots of maps under my belt, with majority of them not being uploaded on hive.

I'm probably not as experienced as you, but that's also relative. As far as I know you have one great ORPG map.

But not to act all high and mighty, I understand.

How did you decide? I am kinda curious.

I haven't. That's why I have million maps on hold at all times

 

[Deleted member 238226]

i hope you can make your ideas to come true. good luck mate, sounds like an interesting project ahead.

 

[sentrywiz]

i hope you can make your ideas to come true. good luck mate, sounds like an interesting project ahead.

Thanks ditto

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Do I look like a beginner to you? I have lots of maps under my belt, with majority of them not being uploaded on hive.

I'm probably not as experienced as you, but that's also relative. As far as I know you have one great ORPG map.

But not to act all high and mighty, I understand.

Ah, sorry. I didn't check your profile so I didn't know that you actually made a lot of maps already. From the description in the TO it sounded like this was going to be your first project.

 

[laserdemon]

Interesting, i think this would be another great map.

A1 - Talent trees are great, as they are custom, instead of using the normal Warcraft 3 abilities slot, they provide a very different experience to player, it takes a long time to make, however. Please note that the races have to follow the storyline, depends whether the storyline needs or not.

A1a - Hybrid is a good choice, some abilities require prerequisites, while some don't. For example, some passive requires a certain active or vice versa. If fully freedom, some support abilities may be ignored, but we can't limit players' play style.

A2 - Of course, abilities is what makes the game meaningful, imagine a hack and slash game, so boring. Complex abilities make the game more attractive, and it looks cool with great abilities, it shows the importance of certain role and the skill of the map author. Furthermore, abilities are what players use the most, farming and boss raiding. Great abilities are more important than talent trees. So DO NOT neglect this part.

A3 - Both of course, to show the real skills of players, all techniques have to be used to fight a boss, creative boss fighting is the one that make the game challenging.

If my answers confused you, please give me the chance to clarify them.

 

[sentrywiz]

Ah, sorry. I didn't check your profile so I didn't know that you actually made a lot of maps already. From the description in the TO it sounded like this was going to be your first project.

Its alright. I never guessed you were the maker of Gaiasretribution either.
That weird name of yours. It sounds german, and Gaias isn't german so... assumptions were made.

Lesson is, don't judge a book by its cover.

Interesting, i think this would be another great map.

A1 - Talent trees are great, as they are custom, instead of using the normal Warcraft 3 abilities slot, they provide a very different experience to player, it takes a long time to make, however. Please note that the races have to follow the storyline, depends whether the storyline needs or not.

A1a - Hybrid is a good choice, some abilities require prerequisites, while some don't. For example, some passive requires a certain active or vice versa. If fully freedom, some support abilities may be ignored, but we can't limit players' play style.

A2 - Of course, abilities is what makes the game meaningful, imagine a hack and slash game, so boring. Complex abilities make the game more attractive, and it looks cool with great abilities, it shows the importance of certain role and the skill of the map author. Furthermore, abilities are what players use the most, farming and boss raiding. Great abilities are more important than talent trees. So DO NOT neglect this part.

A3 - Both of course, to show the real skills of players, all techniques have to be used to fight a boss, creative boss fighting is the one that make the game challenging.

If my answers confused you, please give me the chance to clarify them.

No, your answers were quite clear. Thank you for your good feedback. +rep

 

[laserdemon]

Hopefully I can see updates soon