Trigger Damage affected by unit abilties ?

[Ardenian]

Hello,

is trigger damage affected by unit abilities ?

For example, if I damage a target using damage type 'Spell' will it be affected by 'Magic Bracelet' or the ability that reduces magic damage ?

Another example, is trigger damage influenced by damage reducing abilities like 'Hardened Skin' ?

On the other site, what about damage increasing abilities ?
I don't think 'Critical Strike' will be activated with trigger damage, will it ?

Is there any default / customizable ability that will affect trigger damage without being added somehow into the trigger ?

 

[Daffa]

In triggered damage, there's this damage type right?
If it's set to Universal, I recall it bypass all sort of modifier, thus it's pure damage (I'm uncertain though, but it should at least bypass armor modifier, but not the armor amount)
If it's set to Normal, all usual things will affect the damage (armor, bracelets, blah blah).
Critical Strike doesn't trigger from triggered damage (unless it's a triggered critical), they also bypass Evasion.

Pure damage : Chaos + Universal

My memories could be wrong though, so I would like to hear from people who has test this themselves.

 

[Ardenian]

it should at least bypass armor modifier, but not the armor amount

What does this mean ? If the armour modifier is set, for example, to 0, then the amount is unimportant, isn't it ?

If it's set to Normal, all usual things will affect the damage (armor, bracelets, blah blah).

Oh, nice, thank you!

 

[Nichilus]

I advise reading this post on wc3c.net: http://www.wc3c.net/showpost.php?p=1030046&postcount=19
Or read through the whole thread if you're interested: http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?p=1030046

It is the most accurate explanation of how triggered damage works.


What daffa may have meant is that each armor has modifier that reduces/increases the damage to certain attack type (e.g. magic type deals bonus damage to heavy armor) and thus pure damage should ignore this modifier. It would get affected by armor value which reduces damage as well.

Let's show an example. I don't know the exact values and what damage type is great against which type of armor, so that won't be accurate, but it should still explain what it's about.

So let's have a unit with heavy armor with value 10. Let's say 10 armor reduces incoming damage by 25%.
When this unit takes 50 magic damage, which deals 10% bonus damage against heavy armor, it will deal 55 damage and then get reduced by 25% from the armor value to the final 41,25.
When unit takes 50 siege damage, which deals 20% less damage against heavy armor, it will deal 40 damage which gets further reduced by 25% to final 30 damage.

Chaos damage deals full damage to all armor types, so a 50 damage from chaos type deals 50 damage, but this gets then reduced by 25% by armor value to 37,50 damage.

I would recommend attack type Spells and damage type universal for true damage. This damage WILL get reduced by armor type though (Hero armor type and Divine armor type reduced spell damage, other types do not).

 

[Ardenian]

I advise reading this post on wc3c.net: http://www.wc3c.net/showpost.php?p=1030046&postcount=19
Or read through the whole thread if you're interested: http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?p=1030046

It is the most accurate explanation of how triggered damage works.

Oh, this is very helpful, thank you!

 

[Wietlol]

Hello,

Hi.

is trigger damage affected by unit abilities ?

Yes.

For example, if I damage a target using damage type 'Spell' will it be affected by 'Magic Bracelet' or the ability that reduces magic damage ?

No. (Spell Damage Reduction doesnt apply on Spell Damage but on Spell Attack (the attack type counterpart))

Another example, is trigger damage influenced by damage reducing abilities like 'Hardened Skin' ?

No.
Triggered damage counts as pure damage and is therefor not affected by on-hit damage modifiers. (Hardened Skin only reduces damage from basic attacks.)

On the other site, what about damage increasing abilities ?
I don't think 'Critical Strike' will be activated with trigger damage, will it ?

Same as above.

Is there any default / customizable ability that will affect trigger damage without being added somehow into the trigger ?

Spell Damage Reduction does affect the Attack Type Spells (not magic).
Armor (which can be added via abilities) will reduce damage from the Damage Type Normal.
But as real answer... no.
You can use damage classifications that can change how damage responds to certain units.
For that, you require a very good DDS and Custom Stats system. (And I would suggest an Event System as well.)
In that way, you can create more damage types and modify their damage in overall damage cases. (using a damage system)
And you can use custom armor types and make the damage react to those. (using a stat system)
And you can make sure that all other triggers run before the damage reductions have taken place. (using an event system)

 

[Ardenian]

@Nichilus
@Wietlol

Thank you for the very detailed answer.

So, in case all damage types are set to deal 1.00 against all armor types, nothing will influence the trigger damage, no matter what attack type and damage type I choose (?).

 

[Nichilus]

There will be influences, but it depends on what you choose. Afaik spell damage reduction ability (those bracers of something) reduces spell damage taken (attack type spells). Physical damage will be reduced by armor value (unless damage type is universal).
Problem here is that attack type spells offers you the greatest "freedom" except for the spell damage reduction ability.

From the link I posted earlier:

Spells: Affects any unit (ethereal, spell-immune) and with universal damage type ignores armor value. However the damage is affected by spell damage reduction ability
Normal: Affects spell-immune targets if damage is universal or physical, but never affects ethereal.
Magic: Affects ethereal, but never affects spell-immune no matter what.

 

[Ardenian]

There will be influences, but it depends on what you choose. Afaik spell damage reduction ability (those bracers of something) reduce spell damage taken.
Physical damage will be reduced by armor value.

But an armor constant set to 0 makes the armor value unimportant, doesn't it ?

 

[Wietlol]

Also attack type will also be scaling dependant on armor type of the targeted unit.
You can go to Gameplay Constants to edit those values under "Combat - Damage Bonus Table".

 

[Ardenian]

Also attack type will also be scaling dependant on armor type of the targeted unit.
You can go to Gameplay Constants to edit those values under "Combat - Damage Bonus Table".

Yes, and if I set all these damage bonus tables to 1.00, it will be as if it does not influence the damage, won't it ?

 

[Nichilus]

But an armor constant set to 0 makes the armor value unimportant, doesn't it ?

What armor constant are you writing about? If you mean "Armor damage reduction multiplier" then yes, it will make armor unimportant.

Yes, and if I set all these damage bonus tables to 1.00, it will be as if it does not influence the damage, won't it ?

No, it will still get affected by armor value, unless the constant I wrote above is set to 0.00. In that case the whole armor loses its purpose and you can basically set armor values of all units to 0.

 

[Wietlol]

What do you want to achieve?

 

[Ardenian]

What armor constant are you writing about? If you mean "Armor damage reduction multiplier" then yes, it will make armor unimportant.

No, it will still get affected by armor value, unless the constant I wrote above is set to 0.00. In that case the whole armor loses its purpose and you can basically set armor values of all units to 0.

Well, I need an unit armor value in my map, but it does not influence the damage dealt ( the armor constant is 0).

About armor and attack types, they should not interfere the damage, no way of influence the damage.
So I think I can achieve this with setting the damage bonus table everywhere to 1.00, can't I ?

I posted this thread because I was thinking about adding abilities that influence the trigger damage and I wanted to know whether I have to trigger them or not.

 

[Nichilus]

Well, I need an unit armor value in my map, but it does not influence the damage dealt ( the armor constant is 0).

I'm having troubles understanding what you want exactly. If armor does not decrease damage, why leave it there in the first place?
Anyway, if the armor constant I wrote in my previous post is set to 0, all damage reduction by armor Value will be 0%.

About armor and attack types, they should not interfere the damage, no way of influence the damage.
So I think I can achieve this with setting the damage bonus table everywhere to 1.00, can't I ?

You need to realize the difference between Armor Type and Armor Value.

Armor value is the actual value of the armor. It is the number you see ingame nearby armor icon of selected unit. Armor value is calculated the same way for all units, because the equation for them is the same. When unit has 2 armor value, it gets 11% damage reduction from attacks. So an attack that should deal 100 damage deals only 89 damage because of the 11% reduction from armor. It does not matter if the unit is a structure (fortified armor) or footman (Heavy armor).

An armor type is a hidden constant set in Gameplay Constants. This was add into the game for the sake of rock-paper-scissor approach, meaning that one unit is better at killing certain enemies but is weaker to some different type of an enemy. This is the reason why siege weapons are great at destroying structures, while normal attacks do little to nothing to structures and it is also the reason why units with Pierce attack are excellent at killing flying units which have Light armor (Pierce attacks deal 2.00 times bonus damage against Light armor).
In actual game, this can be "seen" by hovering your mouse of the armor type of unit and reading what is written there.
This is written for "Unarmored" units: "Unarmored takes extra damage from Piercing, and Siege attacks." - those are the Armor type constants.

While both armor value and armor type are used to calculate final damage, one is not dependent on the other.

 

[Ardenian]

@Nichilus Alright, I think now it is clear.

I need the armor value for a special damage trigger.

This rock-paper-scissor system is 'removed' if I set all damage boni to 1.00 ?
I don't want to have / I don't need any damage table like the rock-paper-scissor one, I just want to make sure I can use a default in-game ability / item like the bracelets to still influence the damage.

Thank you again for the very detailed explanation!

 

[Nichilus]

yes, setting the value to 1.00 everywhere will remove the rock-paper-scissor mechanic

 

[Ardenian]

yes, setting the value to 1.00 everywhere will remove the rock-paper-scissor mechanic

Alright, then this is solved, I think.

Thank you guys for your time and patience!