[General] Tall Grass Mechanic

[sentrywiz]

I want to implement the good ol' Tall Grass mechanic in my aos map.

That is: unit walks in, becomes invisible and can see others from within the grass but those outside can't see it until they go inside.

So far I thought of two solutions, one of which failed.

1. Put walkable line of sight blockers around the brush - for some reason this doesn't work.

2. Put regions on each brush and when unit enters region, a dummy casts invisibility on them and adds a true sight skill on them. When they leave region, remove the buff and the ability.


I am accepting any other ideas if you have them. tyvm

 

[Flux]

The line of sight blocker around the grass is a much easier solution.
Can you elaborate how it does not work? What happens when you did that?
Perhaps your unit is flying and the sight blocker only works for ground units?

 

[jopi]

well i worked out something some time ago.

you can create invisible platforms and give them a cliff height. Then you only
need to lower them into the ground (should the ground where the grass is be
not plain). The only downside with this technique is that cliffs that are close
to each other can be looked inside from eachother (I hope you get it^^).
You need no triggers whatsoever, but you will need some tinkering around,
especially with diagonal bruches/grasses.

Also If you use only the standart pathing maps you are partially bound to the
wc3 grid so only vertical/horizontal and diagonal grasses/brushes are possible
(or rather good to make). Still you can also draw your own pathing maps for
every single grass/brush in your map.

Also something i remember is that e.g. if you want to make a 4x2 grass (i refer
to the white grid when you hit 'g' twice in the editor, with standard settings):

1. you place walkable invisible platforms with cliffheight '1' (with the pathing
map of the big invisible platforms) so it covers the area.
2. Place walkable invisible platforms with cliffheight '2' (with the Pathing map
of the small invisible platforms) on top of the first (using 'shift' when
placing) so they cover the 'borders' of the grass.

The second step is needed so units that stand very close to the border of the
grass are still invisible/can't look inside. Also you maybe want to change the
'uphill miss chance' or 'downhill damage increase' in the gameplay constants,
as it would also apply to your grasses, as they are nothing more than 'faked
cliffs'.

I hope you can understand what I mean, if not feel free to pm me, maybe I can
find some documentation from my tests (test map, screens etc).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

The second method is easier and generally works better.

The cool thing about a hidden dummy casting invis is that the protection wears off automaticly when you attack. Which is how it works in most AoS (you don't want the hidden unit permanently invisible even when attacking).

 

[Callahan]

Cliff level works exactly like "tall grass".
Higher ground can see lower ground but lower ground can't see higher ground.

 

[Alright]

I'm just throwing this out here, but what about making a 1x1 walkable building (with locust) that uses occluder height (example here, maybe set it to 1), and put them around something where you want an unit to be hidden? Leave some space in the middle or something, and then an unit can walk in and enemies can't see him but you can't see them (edit: read your post again, make a flying invisible/locust ward that can see everything whenever the unit enters grass), like how tall grasses generally work.

Don't hold me on this though, since I've never tested it and I've heard it doesn't work on heroes either, but may as well as be worth a shot.

 

[Flux]

The second method is easier and generally works better.

The cool thing about a hidden dummy casting invis is that the protection wears off automaticly when you attack. Which is how it works in most AoS (you don't want the hidden unit permanently invisible even when attacking).

How is the second method easier? I think what he wants to accomplish are the tall grass like in LoL where going to the tall grass hides your unit from players outside the grass area. However, your unit is visible to players within the grass Area.

Cliff level is the best solution. Basically, the grass area is like a higher cliff level.

 

[sentrywiz]

Well thanks guys for your multiple comments.

Originally I was trying to copy-paste the old TT map from LoL.
But now I've decided to fuck all and be original. So I'm going for the easiest solution possible and no longer care for aesthetics.

I am going for the cliff solution, since its the best and simplest to adopt. Since my jungle region will be in the center and accessible from all 3 lanes, I will make it "high ground with ramps" and just put shrub models on the ramp so it looks like Tall Grass.

The line of sight blocker around the grass is a much easier solution.
Can you elaborate how it does not work? What happens when you did that?
Perhaps your unit is flying and the sight blocker only works for ground units?

I put "Walkable" attribute to true on line of sight blockers both small and large.
When I put them around the brush, the unit in-game couldn't go inside the brush.
They acted like pathing blockers, even though they had walkable set to true.

 

[Flux]

I put "Walkable" attribute to true on line of sight blockers both small and large.
When I put them around the brush, the unit in-game couldn't go inside the brush.
They acted like pathing blockers, even though they had walkable set to true.

Well the sight blockers was not a good solution anyway because if you are inside the grass area, you wont be able to see units outside.

If ever you will use line of sight blocker in the future, try changing the Pathing Texture to NONE and it will now work. Tested and proven

 

[sentrywiz]

Well the sight blockers was not a good solution anyway because if you are inside the grass area, you wont be able to see units outside.

If ever you will use line of sight blocker in the future, try changing the Pathing Texture to NONE and it will now work. Tested and proven

That was the reason? Damn.
Thanks, I'll remember that.

 

[jopi]

do blockers with pathing texture NONE work at all? I always thought that their pathing determines the area they block

 

[Zwiebelchen]

How is the second method easier? I think what he wants to accomplish are the tall grass like in LoL where going to the tall grass hides your unit from players outside the grass area. However, your unit is visible to players within the grass Area.

Cliff level is the best solution. Basically, the grass area is like a higher cliff level.

The reason why the second method is easier is because it solves two related problems aswell: that hidden players should not have any other advantage except the ability to attack first or surprise the player.

If you use cliff level, the elevated unit will also have defense advantages over the not-elevated unit. Also, it will become hidden again after attacking, which is not how it works in games like LoL.

Plus, it causes design-related issues, as ramps are hard to create in WE (especially if you don't want rectangular designs of the area) and bug alot.

Also, the invisibility spell will create visual feedback for the player that indicates if he is properly hidden or not. With cliffs, you can never be really sure if the other player can see you or not.

And the last advantage: cliffs actually block the line of sight there, making units unable to see the area behind the bushes aswell. This is usually not intended.

 

[Flux]

Ok it may be the most accurate solution but it is definitely not the easiest.

But due to the number of disadvantage it has, as pointed by sentrywiz, I suggest creating regions and adding the Permanent Invisibility ('Apiv') and True Sight to the entering unit. Well it depends on your map (no. of grass area) and your enthusiasm if you want it to be exactly like in LoL.

 

[sentrywiz]

The reason why the second method is easier is because it solves two related problems aswell: that hidden players should not have any other advantage except the ability to attack first or surprise the player.

If you use cliff level, the elevated unit will also have defense advantages over the not-elevated unit. Also, it will become hidden again after attacking, which is not how it works in games like LoL.

Plus, it causes design-related issues, as ramps are hard to create in WE (especially if you don't want rectangular designs of the area) and bug alot.

Also, the invisibility spell will create visual feedback for the player that indicates if he is properly hidden or not. With cliffs, you can never be really sure if the other player can see you or not.

And the last advantage: cliffs actually block the line of sight there, making units unable to see the area behind the bushes aswell. This is usually not intended.

Ok it may be the most accurate solution but it is definitely not the easiest.

But due to the number of disadvantage it has, as pointed by sentrywiz, I suggest creating regions and adding the Permanent Invisibility ('Apiv') and True Sight to the entering unit. Well it depends on your map (no. of grass area) and your enthusiasm if you want it to be exactly like in LoL.

I like the LoL tall grass mechanic but line of sight blockers would work really well as well. Because my original idea was a simple line of brush that you cannot see the other side until you move to the other side. As I already had made the items and abilities, items that place wards would be extremely useful and needed because you could be walking into an ambush and not see it anyway.

But the cliffs are great as well, because now I don't have to trigger anything and the brush I place is purely for aesthetic.

This is how it looks right now in the map:

 

[Flux]

I like the LoL tall grass mechanic but line of sight blockers would work really well as well. Because my original idea was a simple line of brush that you cannot see the other side until you move to the other side. As I already had made the items and abilities, items that place wards would be extremely useful and needed because you could be walking into an ambush and not see it anyway.

But the cliffs are great as well, because now I don't have to trigger anything and the brush I place is purely for aesthetic.

Nice!

If you don't mind, can I also have copy of that tall grass model?

 

[sentrywiz]

Nice!

If you don't mind, can I also have copy of that tall grass model?

Its a hidden warcraft doodad model, grass turf0 i think.

Google "hidden warcraft models" and you will find a thread on hive that has all of the path files.

 

[Flux]

Oh the grass turf, I didn't realize it can be that tall.

 

[sentrywiz]

Oh the grass turf, I didn't realize it can be that tall.

I made it bigger.