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60,000 passwords have been reset on July 8, 2019. If you cannot login, read this.

So I just finished HOTS Campaign...

Discussion in 'StarCraft I & II' started by Edhel-dur, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    Surprisingly in the end it felt better than WOL.

    However I do not know why exactly. Since there are a lot of stupid things about this campaign. Like the cinematic where Sarah frees Raynor, and Raynor has a gun.

    The missions are pretty good, but at times there can be too much hand holding.

    Some parts of the story are too cheesy. Some aspects don't make sense really. Like why would you have mineral fields to mine inside a facility. And again, most of the time it just feels like you are the attacker, and there is no one who can hinder you at all.

    Stukov being revived I didn't like. Sure he gives some nice insight into the UED, but seriously... "doesn't anyone stay dead anymore?".

    The line about "Fenix and the millions killed" from Raynor pretty much came out of no where. For someone who only played SC2... who the fuck is Fenix? It just felt that they threw that out there in order to appease the fans. Like "Hey look, Raynor remembers his promise! He just can't do it".

    The evolution missions... are no challenge really. I would have liked to have these missions maybe as secondary objectives in main missions. That way if you managed to complete it you would have been rewarded with evolution.

    All in all, the campaign felt short, lack luster, but at least it didn't suck as much as WOL (story wise).
     
  2. Statharas

    Statharas

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    Well, you could just look up things that happened in Starcraft. Raynor-Kerrigan dialogs BEG for references to the past.

    As for the evolution missions, they are merely there to show you how to use the units.
     
  3. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    I know what happened in the original Starcraft. I still feel they are badly portrayed in SC2.

    Evolution missions still felt crappy for me.
     
  4. Hawkwing

    Hawkwing

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    I found evolution missions pretty painful too. It's nice to have maps to teach you how to use the units that become available after completing them, but making them mandatory just felt like it was preventing me from experiencing the parts of the campaign that I actually enjoyed.

    The plot in its most basic form in WoL and HotS was far too simple. There weren't any incredible twists except the events of Zerus which only managed to undo the advancements to the plot brought by WoL; restoring Kerrigan's human form. Aside from that the story was pretty predictable. In WoL, the Zerg threat is neutralized. In HotS, Mengsk is killed.

    Yes, Stukov's story was butchered. I'm glad we go to explore the UED a bit more, but there's almost no reason to do so now because of how unlikely it is that we'll see them return any time soon. His change in voice actor and the lack of similarity between the appearances of Stukov in HotS and Brood War made it feel as if he was an entirely different character and so I could not get attached to him.

    I personally loved a lot of the references to Brood War. I can't recall this one specifically, but as someone who had a rough time immersing myself in the WoL story, to be reminded that this was still the same series I fell in love with ten years ago was refreshing.

    There's a brief reference to Daggoth in one of the evolution missions. That was definitely my favourite! :p
     
  5. Rui

    Rui

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    I found evolution missions (watched them on YouTube) overly easy and boring too. I'm glad I didn't buy HotS :p Although, if they make a 50% discount or whatever it was like they did with WoL at some point, I might consider it.
     
  6. busterkomo

    busterkomo

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    I've never understood why people base their buying of a starcraft game on its campaign when the series' success is almost solely from the multiplayer.

    And HotS definitely delivers in multiplayer.
     
  7. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    You mean a pea shooter? You are aware that Marines use great big automatic cannon too powerful for humans to fire without power armor? The reason they use such big guns is Zerg carapaces are inches thick (several feet for Ultralisk and large structures), Protoss armor is incredibly resilient and surrounded by a Plasma Shield and even Terran power armor is about an inch thick with tough metals.

    Firing a handgun at a marine in full power armor is the same as firing a handgun at modern day tank, it will do nothing at all. As he will be killing no one using that tiny thing so they had no reason to take it off him. They did, however, take his trademark skull faced power armor and his over sized gauss rifle, which is considerably better than the average marine.

    You can also imagine Mensk giving special orders to leave him with the gun. What better way to get rid of Raynor than having him kill himself. One can assume Mensk was forcing Raynor to watch/hear an over-exaduration of what Kerrigan was doing. He would have wanted to break Raynor and drive him to suicide. Clearly it had little effect on Raynor next to breaking his heart.

    Because you need minerals to make units. Kerrigan is powerful but not that powerful. More a gameplay device than plot.

    That is the difference between playing as a fighting force run from inside a single battlecruiser and playing as a large alien organization that controls hundreds of solar systems. She was the attacker as she controlled a huge army, unlike Raynor who lacked the firepower to take on the Dominion. In fact Raynor was only able to rescue Kerrigan by using the bulk of the Dominion fleet with the help of Prince Valarian and General Warfield as otherwise the Zerg would have crushed his pathetic attempt almost instantly.
     
  8. Rui

    Rui

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    That doesn't mean it can't have a decent campaign. WarCraft III's campaigns were better in a few aspects.

    I've played WoL multiplayer, but I prefer team games and I think Blizzard's matching system isn't all that good. Most of the times it says things are even when through the gameplay it's clear that it's not.
     
  9. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Or is it? The entire point of match making is to match you with people of about equal play skill. When fighting people of equal play skill you will be challenged and pushed to your limits since they are as good as you (and the only way to win is do better). Since you are constantly feeling challenged you may think that the opponent is better than you but in reality he is in the same position as you are (he thinks you are better than him).

    It only breaks if it matches someone from top leagues to someone on Bronze as one is a king of micro and the other barely knows how to play. This should never happen though.
     
  10. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    W00t, responses. Now, to elaborate.

    The plot in HOTS is basic, and more simpler. But I wasn't talking about that. I played WOL in one play-through, in one night. Did all missions, conversations etc. It really didn't feel like I was playing Starcraft at all, not until Char missions. Then it all got interesting for me, and I was really pumped. I completed mission 'All In', saw the ending cinematic, and felt really crappy. I really felt let down and disappointed. The ending just felt a big shit from Blizzard. I literary felt like Blizzard was mocking me with a the most retarded cliff-hanger of all time. So I was glad that the end of HOTS wasn't as bad.

    Stukov did feel like a new character. But I would rather have him be dead still. It's just another little thing which undoes what happened in Broodwar.

    The references to the original game and Broodwar did the opposite for me. At this point I feel SC2 is just a completely different game from a story and atmosphere perspective, that reminding me all those lines feels like you are reminding me there is a better campaign out-there which occupies 200mb. The only thing which does for me is to remind how much they have revamped the starcraft story.

    @busterkomo - it's because the original game had a great story with a certain atmosphere. Many of us who got to play the original game, wanted that kind of atmosphere to remain. That didn't happen however.

    @DrSuperGood - yeah, that's retarded. I'm sorry but if maybe at one point someone needed to talk to see Raynor and that person didn't have a suit... do what? Suit-up everyone who wants to meet Raynor? That sounds pretty counter-logic for me. If Mengsk wanted Raynor dead, he would have done it himself. He already claimed Raynor was dead. It doesn't matter how Raynor dies, all that matters is how it's claimed and perceived by everyone else. Having Raynor keep his gun, is, counter-logic.

    I know it's gameplay device. Lazily added if you ask me.

    You just never feel hindered. All your victories are absolute, and nothing comes back to bite you in the ass or complicate the situation. You are literary steam-rolling everything. There are no strategic choices to be had. Like in Broodwar at one point, you had to choose if you want the enemy to lack Nukes or Battlecruisers.

    As for the Evolution missions, that's exactly how I felt. I felt that I was just wasting time, to see a 5 minute demonstration. I would much rather have these mission somehow died to the secondary objectives of missions, making them harder to get and thus more rewarding, and not feel as time wasting.
     
  11. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    He was not dead in Broodwars? Apparently you cured and captured his Zerg hybrid form using a Protoss antidote and handed him over as a sort of prisoner. Dr Narud/Duran then experimented on him with Protoss and Zerg components turning him into the cool thing he is now.

    No one would see Raynor, ever. Kerrigan tried to and Mengsk ordered the ship self-destruct.

    He was too valuable to him alive as he knew Kerrigan could not attack as long as he held a knife at Raynor. He also wanted to twist Raynor into killing Kerrigan (thus another possible reason for the gun?).

    Mengsk was not thinking logically is the thing. He had been driven insane by Duran/Narud and his own greed. His insanity was such that he ordered the destruction of a battlecruiser with his son on-board even though Raynor was nowhere near it and they were willing to negotiate.

    One can assume that Narud/Duran supported his every decision, saying that an artefact would save him from Kerrigan (which it nearly did) and promising him an army of invincible Hybrids (that would never be his to command as they only serve Amon). Despite this he ordered the forceful shutdown of Narud/Durans laboratories so it is assumed he either did a King Leoric or he found out he had no control over the Hybrid.

    In either case he still was not of sound mind as he sat in his capitol as the rest of the planet was being destroyed. His only goal, to kill Kerrigan using the artefact at melee range (like a zealot who has been brain washed).

    They had that in WoL with the final mission and the general coconscious was that one choice was considerably easier than the other and people regretted not choosing the other. The Zerg campaigns have always been about dominating and absolute victories, so it is not anything different that HotS did the same.

    They were little amusing breaks. Allowing you to see units in a light different from when you are rushing them all-over the place under time limits.
     
  12. Hawkwing

    Hawkwing

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    To be honest, I didn't notice the gun being left in Raynor's possession and it doesn't bother me terribly that it does, but I want to throw my two cents in now that it's been brought up! As satisfying Raynor committing suicide would be for Mengsk, it doesn't make sense given that he was holding Raynor for use against Kerrigan. Leaving him the gun creates a whole lot of risk that he would lose a valuable weapon.

    You're correct about what happened after Brood War. Personally though, I feel it's just such an awkward, complicated backstory that's not fully explained in Heart of the Swarm. The writters could have tackled it better.

    Though I find it hard to believe Mengsk would have been thinking that far, that's an interesting possibility!

    (If it isn't obvious enough from the quote, this is talking about evolution missions again.) Evolution missions are, indeed, very useful for experimenting and exploring your options, but it's simply the fact that you're forced to do them to unlock the tech that makes it frustrating. In the case of the first couple evolution missions, I already knew a lot about the units I was choosing from as they were revealed in videos before the game's release. I also imagine it would be very frustrating if you wanted to do a full second play through of the campaign and already being familiar with the tech (not using the Master Archives). Also, I have a relatively old computer and it doesn't run Starcraft II very well, so every time I load up one of these missions it takes quite awhile. The whole process is quite frustrating for me.

    Ah, I suppose we have some pretty different opinions on the campaign then. For me, I thought the plot of both campaigns were lacking after I played through them, but as I was experiencing them for the first time I loved the stories. I loved WoL especially. Taking on a huge task with limited resources, the atmosphere, the characters. All of it felt very appropriate for me. Not very true to how Starcraft games were played in the past, but it felt new and refreshing. I will agree though that Char was pretty interesting, but that the ending was awful. Cliff hangers suck and the focus on the romance felt odd to me. That is an exception to my approval of the change in atmosphere. This was the same deal with HotS's ending, which I actually was no more pleased with than the ending of WoL. When Kerrigan flew off into the distance and the tone of the music shifted, I couldn't help but sigh and cover my eyes. I think both campaigns suffered from Blizzard's decision to release each story as a separate game. The original Starcraft had one large story arc with a satisfying conclusion, as did Brood War, and I expect the Starcraft II trilogy will as well. WoL and HotS on their own, however, have much smaller story arcs and their conclusions advance the story a lot less. I'm having troubles explaining what I mean, but trust me, it makes sense!

    I think this basically sums up the difference between our opinions. You wanted to maintain that atmosphere and I felt the changes were refreshing.

    I agree with this. In Brood War, Kerrigan starts off as the underdog, not having control of much of the Swarm. Although this is the case at the start of HotS as well, she is superior to the leaders of all the independent broods and doesn't have the might of an entire UED Fleet aligned against her.

    On a side note, what was with that Psi Destroyer thing on Korhal? Mengsk unveils his big secret weapon and it does next to nothing. I found that to be a very off-putting addition to the story.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  13. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    If Raynor did kill himself, obviously he would keep lying to Kerrigan until she found out the truth. As he wanted to have a showdown with her, we can only assume he was deranged as a result of Narud/Durans influence.

    They wanted him for the coolness factor and to give the Swarm a bit of humanity. Like Kerrigan, he possesses power far beyond what the Swarm is capable of (because he was experimented on by servants of Amon). He is also capable of feeling compassion for humans like the new Kerrigan, unlike all other Swarm commanders (although Kerrigan is working on that). These factors make him a very good ally to Kerrigan who will help stop her reverting back to her old ways.

    There is also that hint of mystery to him. Why was he allowed to escape? Perhaps he got lucky and desperate and needed to stop Amon's plans. Perhaps he was allowed to escape as part of Amon's will and is in place to betray Kerrigan in LotV. Only time will tell however we can be sure to see him again in LotV.

    The missions themselves are about a 5 minute job. There is no real way to fail them (it instantly resets to before a task). They should also load in a couple of seconds if you have been playing the game recently, if they fail to do so then your computer must be running out of memory for cached files. Inserting an extra 1-2GB of memory would fix this and make the maps load considerably faster.

    Actually that was just a small UED task force, not a UED fleet. It was sent without any real firepower and equipped with only very light weapons on the premises that they could take control of local forces (both Terran and Zerg included) which is where their firepower came from. With local the local Terran fleets and Zerg at their control, they did not need to send in their real fleets.

    Ultimately its destruction was insignificant compared to the actual UED fleets. The reason a replacement taskforce (or a fleet) has not been sent already is that the UED is meant to be having internal political conflicts which is causing quite a bit of confusion over territories and priorities for their military. Add to that Mengsk being very planning and you probably have it that the Dominion has been sending false reports back to the UED, tricking them into thinking they do not need to send reinforcements.

    The fact is the UED are meant to be insanely powerful. They are probably so powerful that the Zerg Swarm would be no match to them (Kerrigan trying to attack Earth like she did Korhal would be stopped long before she even reaches the solar system). They could probably stop both the Protoss and the Zerg in their current states without even using their entire fleet.

    So how come all humans die if Kerrigan was to have been killed in WoL? It is unclear if the battle focused on within the Galaxy and the Humans the Protoss knew about or if the UED really was destroyed there (only was going to be destroyed next). However what is clear is that Amon is extremely powerful, possessing knowledge far beyond anything the Protoss, Zerg and Terrans (Dominion, not UED) can achieve. With full control over the Zerg and his Hybrids to control them, he probably would have expanded massively until even the superior power of the UED could not drive back the overwhelming numbers.

    One of the game developers said it was quite possible that the UED possess "Death Star" like weaponry on their battle-cruisers, where the forward cannon can destroy planets.

    Remember that the Terrans of the Dominion were all settlers that came from criminals. All their base knowledge was that of a subset of what became the UED and due to "third-world" development probably progressed far slower than the UED. I would not be surprised if UED military units are shielded like all Protoss units.

    It was not on Korhal, but floating above on a platform. The idea was it would emit an ever expanding shield that would eventually cover Korhal forcing all Zerg off the surface and thus stopping the invasion (until their fleets could break through and save them). It is unclear if it was one of Narud/Duran's creations or not (as he would have done anything to get Kerrigan killed as she is a threat to Amon) but it obviously something that the Terran possess the knowhow for (like how the UED can build facilities to locally control the Swarm).

    It works by putting huge feedback through psionic links. In the case of the Zerg Swarm this is the connection between all Zerg and their commanders (used to be cerebrates and overmind, now its queens). The result is they literally destroyed by it if they enter the field. Since Kerrigan has such a Psyonic link to control the Zerg she is hurt heavily by it and even short exposure could fry her mind. Since the psionic link that controls the Swarm was a feature added to the Zerg by Amon, the Primal Zerg have no such thing and thus were not affected by it.

    Stukov could possibly have also stopped the generators since I doubt he had a very strong psionic link but they needed to use that stupid Primal Zerg guy as otherwise he was excess baggage on her flagship. Also I think you were meant to use all heroes at once originally but that was axed so they had to get the Primal guy to make some appearance.

    On a lesser note, the Psy Destroyer field would also work on Protoss as they also have a universal psionic link, killing all normal Protoss who enter it with ease. This includes their Zealots, Stalkers, Immortals, Dragoons, Scouts, Void Rays and everything else that is manned by normal Protoss. High Templars, Dark Templars and all their robots would be unaffected by it for the logical reasons that they have no psionic link.

    In case you referring to the artefact in Mengsk's throne room, then that is a different story. It is basically a large psionic drain that sucks psionic energy from anything psionic nearby. Since Mengsk and Raynor do not have strong Psyonic abilities, they feel nothing at all from it. Since Kerrigan is a very powerful Psyonic being and a Zerg queen (who uses Psyonic links to control all Zerg) she would be very badly affected by it, weakening her to such a state that she would probably die.

    It basically worked, Mengsk won as Kerrigan was powerless and cringing, if not for one variable he never considered. Despite all that Kerrigan did, despite all that Mengsk torched Raynor about Kerrigan, despite Raynor being heart broken, Raynor still was behind Kerrigan and came in at the last minute to save the day, shooting the remote control from Mengsk's hand allowing Kerrigan to finish him.

    This is also meant to prove all the full Zerg commanders wrong with their beliefs. They were for ever saying how pathetic the humans are and questioning why Kerrigan was so merciful to them when she clearly was so much more powerful than them. They would have killed every human, Raynor included if they could. However in the end their all powerful queen, representing the pinnacle of Zerg achievement, won by not being Zerg but by being Human, and keeping her Human promises with Raynor who came in to save her. One can imagine that the Zerg will forever see Humans in a new light, as equals rather than inferiors like they had in the past. This paves the way for a galaxy peace at the end of LotV, where the Terran and Zerg will be friends and respect each others existence.

    On a miscellaneous note, the Artefact would work to not only stop Kerrigan, but Zeratul and any Protoss Templar as well since they are also heavily Psyonic.
     
  14. Statharas

    Statharas

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    Any protoss.
    Normal protoss use the psionic links.
     
  15. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    I think the effectiveness of the artefact is a function of their psionic power and not that they share a psionic link. This is why Zerg could destroy the artefact in the final mission of WoL. The blast that was emitted when you request was redirecting absorbed power through the psionic link in a psyonic explosion, which would kill normal protoss as they have a link but not harm High Templars.

    The artefact itself acts as a giant psionic drain when stimulated correctly. So beings with weak psionic presences such as lowly zerg, terrans and probably most protoss would not be affected by it although they may feel strange near it.

    The real irony is that Primal Zerg guy could have easily finished Mengsk off as the artefact is totally ineffective against him as he lacks any form of psionic capability. Like wise the Russian guy could probably have also done it as he is not inherently psionic. Equally well Raynor could have busted more marines and raced Kerrigan to Mengsk, but he probably wanted to show off for his girl friend.
     
  16. Colonist

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    I am currently through the missions in Dominion Space, so I think I have them and the final missions maybe 7 missions left to go through, all on Brutal. I liked the cinematic and the battle vs Narud.

    Brutal seems easier than it was on WoL, and that speaks a lot since I never played zerg and im a Terran.

    I liked both campaigns, HotS is even more interesting, I cannot say anything bad about it, there are some cheesy moments but I don't see what people complain so much about..
     
  17. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    Thing is, the dynamic relationships between all the characters in Broodwar, were kind on par with those from "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" or even "For a few dollars more". Those characters, their relationships, everything was so mature really. Also the story, more or less, was unpredictable.

    You could guess how things would turn out generally because Zerg would be the last campaign, so they should win Broodwar right? But through the story alone, it wasn't predictable what will happen next. Duran left Kerrigan before the final mission, that was something unexpected, it raised questions, but Kerrigan didn't have the time to explore that question. She was under attack by 3 factions. You would find the answer to that question in the Secret Mission.

    But SC2 lacks the mature dynamic relationships from Broodwar, while at the same time, the original audience of SC1 matured itself, we are 10 to 15 years older now, since the first time we experienced Broodwar.

    My problem with SC2 in general, is that so many things are left to interpretation. Like the fact that Raynor has a gun in his cell. I personally want the game to answer that question for me, not the interpretation of DSG or anyone else really. And there are overall just so many cheesy lines and scenes in SC2.

    Broodwar didn't have cheesy lines and couldn't have cheesy scenes. Mostly because the technology didn't allow it. This is a personal question of mine for a while, are the stories & atmosphere from the older Blizzard games better because the company was thinking better, or because Blizzard couldn't apply their cheesy ideas because they were restricted by technology?

    Many people argued that it's just about nostalgia. For me it isn't just nostalgia. The atmosphere and story in Broodwar is just superior in every aspect. SC2 is so linear...
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  18. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    When it is physically less linear than SC1 because it allows you to make choices in the order you do missions and what you use in missions?!
     
  19. Edhel-dur

    Edhel-dur

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    I've come to a revelation. I think you have no feelings.

    Yes, mathematically, theoretically, whatever, SC2 is less linear. In terms of experience, of emotions, it's very linear.
     
  20. Rui

    Rui

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    That thought is probably helped by the fact that they unveil practically the entire plot during trailers. Ever since you started WoL you knew Raynor would end up going to Char ("So I'm going back to Char... to get the job done") and you also knew Kerrigan would be going after Mengsk because of the line "The killing will never stop until Mengsk is dead". The era of nearly real-life graphics comes with a sometimes irrational need for show-off.

    Obviously, if you have the ending point, wherever the starting point is, you can trace a line. Therefore linear :grin: