Regarding School Shootings

[Crayons]

as you've seen on the news there's been a school shooting in connecticut.

twenty children were murdered.

we've all been through this kind of discussion before, but once again I would like to discuss gun control.

yes. gun control.

I know how cool guns are. I know how useful they are especially in the conundrums of hunting and self defense. And I know you'd think i'm an ignorant, one-sided idiot for wanting gun control.

SELF DEFENSE

one of the main points i've been receiving from anti-gun control arguments is of self defense. you have a gun, you can protect yourself from another who has.

though I agree to that certain benefit I do find a problem with it at the other aspects related to it.

as you know. 20 of the deaths in the shooting are of children.

as an adult, a gun is within reach. you can protect yourself from some random maniac.

but what if you're six, with the IQ and the responsibility level of the average of your age. do you think you can just come to the gun store and buy yourself a shotgun and a few shells?

you cannot. but what if you're a 20-year old? Mentally disturbed though not showing any outward signs of it, you've got money, you've got a license.

you can.

so if you're a 4th grader, how could you use a gun to defend yourself from psychopaths when you don't have one and you're not supposed to physically and psychologically?

Meanwhile... in China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing

China may be one of dem oppressive states but let's put that aside for a moment. China has stricter gun controls.

Same scenario. A psycho intended to kill people in a school.
Different weapons.

Adam Lanza had an XM-15, a 10mm cal. Glock and a 9mm SIG Sauer, a .30 Enfield, a .22 Martin and .45 repeater.
Min Yongjun had a knife.

Adam was able to kill 27 people (20 children, 7 adults including his mother)

Min Yongjun was able to injure 24 people (23 chilren, one elderly woman)

TL;DR
27 deaths - With Guns
24 injuries - With Knives

Point is why do we keep arguing that guns are great for self defense even if self defense by guns won't be able to reach everybody?

 

[Aeroblyctos]

I think we should all look Japan and how they handle the guns.

 

[The_wand_mirror]

I think the conclusion is that we just don't know how to prevent this sort of thing, somebody just had to see somekind of sign that this guy was autistic, a sociopath or whatever. But you are never going around as someone who can judge people in that field as if every patient you encounter with these symptomes is a potential murderer. We're all potentional murderers, wether if it is just yourself or a bunch of others. The world can make everyone cross that line.

I'm also kind of wondering where the gaming discussion has gone too, aint that a thing in these situations?

 

[trolman]

Its quite ironic to say that a week before, i had an english essey about what would i do if i were a teacher. I wrote about terrorists coming into class and shooting me and my students as a way to make and have fun of the essay, week later this happens and i feel like a dick.

 

[EloTheMan]

I got a spam email claiming that the attacks were planed by anti gun organisations so that they could
disarm the free people of america and leaving them defenseless against criminals and the government.

Spam email

[email protected]

The primary-school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, approximately 45 miles from the Colt Arms Factory, is just another one in the long line of government psyops designed to persuade the public to allow the government to take away their guns, and their means to defend themselves against the government and the banksters that the politicians really serve.


The small children murders are designed to create hysterical emotions in women to get them to demand that guns are banned. If that doesn’t work they will continue with their evil agenda with worse and worse atrocities on younger children, until they get their way and disarm the people, so that they cannot fight back against government tyranny.


Newtown is the U.S.A.’s Dunblane, which was orchestrated in Scotland in 1996 by the British establishment, to whip up hysteria in order to ban all handguns from the U.K. It was a follow-up to the Hungerford Massacre in England in 1987, which was carried out by mind-controlled Michael Ryan, who then shot himself so he could not be questioned, and it was used to ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns.


It’s always the same people behind it – the gun-grabbers who want the people to be defenceless against the gun-grabbers’ employers – the banksters who own all of the politicians. They get their politicians to pass legislation for them, in order to remove the people’s freedoms and means of defending themselves, and enslave them in a draconian police-state, under a mountain of debt, and then exterminate the useless-eaters.


The Dunblane massacre was supposedly carried out by Thomas Hamilton, who was a paedophile and procurer of children, for a high level paedophile ring involving senior members of the Tony Blair Labour-Party shadow-cabinet and others. The massacre served two purposes, it achieved their desired handgun-ban and killed the abused children, so they could not be witnesses against the elite-paedophiles. They then had the findings of the inquiry sealed for 100 years, which is proof of the above.


Like Newtown there were two shooters, Hamilton and a hit-man who shot Hamilton and made it look like Hamilton committed suicide after shooting 16 children, so that he couldn’t be questioned. Hamilton was found in the school gymnasium slumped against a wall and still gurgling, when an off-duty policeman PC Grant McCutcheon entered the gym and saw two semi-automatic pistols, one on either side of Hamilton’s body.


The autopsy revealed that Hamilton was killed with a .38 revolver. These people always slip-up with their crimes. There was no .38 revolver for him to have shot himself with. Thus, there was a second shooter who killed Hamilton.


Similarly, the first reports from Newtown were of two shooters, just like mind-controlled James Holmes in the Denver Batman Cinema massacre, the story then quickly changes to just one.


Columbine was similar, in that a team of shooters in black outfits were seen there and the two accused were on mind-altering prescription-drugs.


Wake up and see the pattern and their modus operandi and don’t fall for it. Never let them take your guns, except from your cold dead hands.


All of these are staged events to whip-up hysterical public support for banning the people from having guns. It works the same in every country – Hungerford in England, Dunblane in Scotland, Port Arthur in Australia and the list in America is endless, because of the Second Amendment and the people having a pro-gun culture. That makes it much more difficult to break the Americans’ love of guns and the Second Amendment, which was put in place to protect the people from the government.


Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three.


If you want to stop these massacres, wake-up and get rid of the banksters, their puppet-politicians and all gun-grabbers; arm teachers and ban gun-free zones.


From one who can see the pattern and hopes to enable you to see it too.

I highly doubt that a democratic government like the US would start harassing the people or turn in to a fascistic dictatorship.

Gun control has worked here but we never really had any crimes up until like 30-40 years ago, the ones who commit them are
mostly organised criminals or small gangs with connections to smugglers from eastern Europe.

 

[PROXY]

The main problem aren't the guns, it has always been that humans were hurting themself, guns are only another instrument given. Changing the gun law woudn't help much. If you want a gun, you can get it everytime, everywhere. Even here in Austria it's not that big deal.

What we should work on instead, is the society in this world. It's just bad. The society in this world releases the gunman, the guns themself are only one of many instruments.

For example: one of the most horrible rampage in the USA was done with nail-bombs, really easy to make by yourself.

 

[Nuclear]

I got a spam email claiming that the attacks were planed by anti gun organisations so that they could
disarm the free people of america and leaving them defenseless against criminals and the government.

Spam email

[email protected]

The primary-school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, approximately 45 miles from the Colt Arms Factory, is just another one in the long line of government psyops designed to persuade the public to allow the government to take away their guns, and their means to defend themselves against the government and the banksters that the politicians really serve.


The small children murders are designed to create hysterical emotions in women to get them to demand that guns are banned. If that doesn’t work they will continue with their evil agenda with worse and worse atrocities on younger children, until they get their way and disarm the people, so that they cannot fight back against government tyranny.


Newtown is the U.S.A.’s Dunblane, which was orchestrated in Scotland in 1996 by the British establishment, to whip up hysteria in order to ban all handguns from the U.K. It was a follow-up to the Hungerford Massacre in England in 1987, which was carried out by mind-controlled Michael Ryan, who then shot himself so he could not be questioned, and it was used to ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns.


It’s always the same people behind it – the gun-grabbers who want the people to be defenceless against the gun-grabbers’ employers – the banksters who own all of the politicians. They get their politicians to pass legislation for them, in order to remove the people’s freedoms and means of defending themselves, and enslave them in a draconian police-state, under a mountain of debt, and then exterminate the useless-eaters.


The Dunblane massacre was supposedly carried out by Thomas Hamilton, who was a paedophile and procurer of children, for a high level paedophile ring involving senior members of the Tony Blair Labour-Party shadow-cabinet and others. The massacre served two purposes, it achieved their desired handgun-ban and killed the abused children, so they could not be witnesses against the elite-paedophiles. They then had the findings of the inquiry sealed for 100 years, which is proof of the above.


Like Newtown there were two shooters, Hamilton and a hit-man who shot Hamilton and made it look like Hamilton committed suicide after shooting 16 children, so that he couldn’t be questioned. Hamilton was found in the school gymnasium slumped against a wall and still gurgling, when an off-duty policeman PC Grant McCutcheon entered the gym and saw two semi-automatic pistols, one on either side of Hamilton’s body.


The autopsy revealed that Hamilton was killed with a .38 revolver. These people always slip-up with their crimes. There was no .38 revolver for him to have shot himself with. Thus, there was a second shooter who killed Hamilton.


Similarly, the first reports from Newtown were of two shooters, just like mind-controlled James Holmes in the Denver Batman Cinema massacre, the story then quickly changes to just one.


Columbine was similar, in that a team of shooters in black outfits were seen there and the two accused were on mind-altering prescription-drugs.


Wake up and see the pattern and their modus operandi and don’t fall for it. Never let them take your guns, except from your cold dead hands.


All of these are staged events to whip-up hysterical public support for banning the people from having guns. It works the same in every country – Hungerford in England, Dunblane in Scotland, Port Arthur in Australia and the list in America is endless, because of the Second Amendment and the people having a pro-gun culture. That makes it much more difficult to break the Americans’ love of guns and the Second Amendment, which was put in place to protect the people from the government.


Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three.


If you want to stop these massacres, wake-up and get rid of the banksters, their puppet-politicians and all gun-grabbers; arm teachers and ban gun-free zones.


From one who can see the pattern and hopes to enable you to see it too.

I highly doubt that a democratic government like the US would start harassing the people or turn in to a fascistic dictatorship.

Gun control has worked here but we never really had any crimes up until like 30-40 years ago, the ones who commit them are
mostly organised criminals or small gangs with connections to smugglers from eastern Europe.

Those monsters... took the @dune.com email address...

 

[Dr Super Good]

27 deaths - With Guns
24 injuries - With Knives

A knife can be equally as fatal as a gun in such situations. A bigger knife (sword) could easilly kill someone with a single slash. Even a blunt weapon (mace / hammer) could kill someone with each swing.

The main problem is that the teachers in a school cannot cope with such a situation, no mater the weapon used. If the head mistress came out with a shotgun and blew his brains out the number of deaths would be under half if not a quarter. The problem is no one working in such a position has the ability or even wants to do such a thing. What sort of a world would we be living in if to be a teacher you need 1-3 years of army training?

Thus the problem falls to two areas.
1. The system not picking up on this guy and preventing him from commiting such an act with help (either restrainitive like prision or supportitive to give him no reason to do it).
2. Media giving him the courage to pull off such an act. After playing a video game or watching a violent movie some people will not hesistate in such a situation compared to someone else who grabs a gun and without such prepration and tries it.

A big problem with guns is that realistic FPS games such as the Call of Duty series make perfect training instrements on using guns in an unemotional way. The fact armies use such games to train soldiers supports this. The incident in Norway was pulled off with the help of training using FPS video games.

However not all FPS are like this. Obviously if you go around shooting aliens or monsters this will hardly help as those are fictional creations. The problem is realistic simulations such as games dipicting modern military combat. These allow people to bridge the gap between them thinking of doing something and actually being able to do it as they can run through similar scenarios inside a game which helps prepare them for it in real life.

Movies can do it to a lesser degree but since they decouple human interaction with what is going on it still makes if difficult to make decissions even in a situation you seen done in a movie a lot of times.

Obviously this is not the case for everyone. Many people will realise a game is only a game but not everyone can.

 

[EloTheMan]

A big problem with guns is that realistic FPS games such as the Call of Duty series make perfect training instrements on using guns in an unemotional way. The fact armies use such games to train soldiers supports this. The incident in Norway was pulled off with the help of training using FPS video games.

I think airsoft/paintball may be the best way of getting shooting combat training as a civlian. They provide almost the same simulation as normal combat. However those requires other people to play with and at events or organisations they are not afraid of kicking people out or banning them from the game areas if they behave weirdly or break rules or law.

In a way I fear that some one will start abusing airsoft and paintball the way FPS and shooting clubs has been. They are pretty easy to ban and it wont have consequences for the society.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Firing a gun is very different fro mfiring a paintball. Powerful guns like a Magnium will break your fingers when recoling unless you have proper training. Automatic weapons especially as unless you know how to hold them the recoil could knock you over. Movies never show guns recoiling as they are using props that do not fire real bullets (which is the source of the recoil).

 

[Zakamutt]

School shootings and the like are much ado about very, very few people dying compared to how many die every flipping second for whatever reason. There is no real cause to care about them, as we will never be able to prevent human stupidity and plain bad luck missing some kid who really should be getting some medical attention. Think of incidents like these as analagous to, say, a meteor falling and hitting someone's head, killing them. Shit to do, really.

About the whole "have everyone carry guns for self-defense" thing, I think it's somewhat silly. If everyone has a gun, no matter what happens someone will be shot.

 

[PROXY]

What also kinda "funny" is, more people die and get killed by own family members by accident with guns, then people die in school shootings.

 

[Crayons]

A knife can be equally as fatal as a gun in such situations. A bigger knife (sword) could easilly kill someone with a single slash. Even a blunt weapon (mace / hammer) could kill someone with each swing.

i do acknowledge that widely known fact

and

School shootings and the like are much ado about very, very few people dying compared to how many die every flipping second for whatever reason. There is no real cause to care about them, as we will never be able to prevent human stupidity and plain bad luck missing some kid who really should be getting some medical attention. Think of incidents like these as analagous to, say, a meteor falling and hitting someone's head, killing them. Shit to do, really.

About the whole "have everyone carry guns for self-defense" thing, I think it's somewhat silly. If everyone has a gun, no matter what happens someone will be shot.

this is quite a big deal since having a school shooting means that the possibility of having a killing that could reach cosmopolitan scales is very real.


though I agree to all your points i do find them neither contradictory nor agreeing to mine

Point is why do we keep arguing that guns are great for self defense even if self defense by guns won't be able to reach everybody?

self defense with guns as a right doesn't seem like a good idea since we can't trust everyone to /just/ use them for self defense and hunting.