Golden Wings Clan

[mafe]

Basically, this map is surperificially at least very similar to the one you uploaded yesterday. But there are some potential issues hidden in the details:
-Getting two lvl 6 summons from the red spots is most likely too much.
-Expanding looks hard, given that the expansions are relatively far away from the main bases.
-Main bases are too open this time Especially all lumber harvesters except wisps will have a long way to walk, reducing lumber income.
-Humans wont like that you put three lizards with purge and splash attack at the merc camps.
Generally there are no "safe" options for militia/AoW-Creeping. This isnt a must have, but it might make for an awkward earlygame as human in particular.
-If you specifically define which items can/cannot drop instead of using the "random lvl X item of class Y" pattern, then if blizzard changes some items like they did with last patch, then your map will still use the specific tables, which then might be imbalanced.

So I'd like to hear your opinion on some of this before I approve the map.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Basically, this map is surperificially at least very similar to the one you uploaded yesterday. But there are some potential issues hidden in the details:
-Getting two lvl 6 summons from the red spots is most likely too much.
-Expanding looks hard, given that the expansions are relatively far away from the main bases.
-Main bases are too open this time Especially all lumber harvesters except wisps will have a long way to walk, reducing lumber income.
-Humans wont like that you put three lizards with purge and splash attack at the merc camps.
Generally there are no "safe" options for militia/AoW-Creeping. This isnt a must have, but it might make for an awkward earlygame as human in particular.
-If you specifically define which items can/cannot drop instead of using the "random lvl X item of class Y" pattern, then if blizzard changes some items like they did with last patch, then your map will still use the specific tables, which then might be imbalanced.

So I'd like to hear your opinion on some of this before I approve the map.

hi, mmm my opinion you say or others opinion??

Acording to the list you did, 1,2,3,4,5.

1) I changed it to a perma L5, thats good for a red creep?
2) Reduced level to 14, 5-3-3-3, that should be more easy now.
3) Agree, I misscalculated that, I reduced main entrance.
4) Agree, 1 T. Lizard is more than enough to limit hu play, more may harm.
5) AOW: Now AOW in gob lab like terenas stand,
6) no more defining items, now all random. I will also fix that in the other map later.

about the superficiallity of the map, the first I used brown dirt as base, in this one desert, I tried to make it different (they somehow look different from the minimap), it wasnt my intention to do it similar, in any case I will avoid using Barrens for 1v1 from now on.

 

[mafe]

hi, mmm my opinion you say or others opinion??

Acording to the list you did, 1,2,3,4,5.

1) I changed it to a perma L5, thats good for a red creep?
2) Reduced level to 14, 5-3-3-3, that should be more easy now.
3) Agree, I misscalculated that, I reduced main entrance.
4) Agree, 1 T. Lizard is more than enough to limit hu play, more may harm.
5) AOW: Now AOW in gob lab like terenas stand,
6) no more defining items, now all random. I will also fix that in the other map later.

about the superficiallity of the map, the first I used brown dirt as base, in this one desert, I tried to make it different (they somehow look different from the minimap), it wasnt my intention to do it similar, in any case I will avoid using Barrens for 1v1 from now on.

Yes, I meant you as the author of the map. But I dont want to exclude others from commenting; in fact it's quite the opposite.

1) I was more worried about the fact that there dropping two big items from a single creepspot, not so much what exact level they are. Commonly such a creepspot would have one lvl 5/6 item + one lvl 2 item. I also realize now that it is also a full air creepcamp, which can be annoying for some armies to creep (breaker casters, melee heavy orcs), but it's not a big issue when common maps have 9-6-6 magic immune golem creepspots which bring comparable issues.
However, you seemed to have made the itemdrops asymmetric with a red drake egg in the northwest and a tome of knowledge in the southeast.
2) It's still hard (as the lvl 5 quilboar will summon two lvl 2 creeps), but ok. I suppose that most humans would still veto it.
3) Looks better indeed. But undeads cant realistically make a wall around their goldmines like they would like to.
4) Merc camp is still very hard for humans since you increased the overall lvl of the creeps there. But the lab is now a good alternative, so it's ok. Just makes the earlygame very predictable.
5) See 4, also applies to AoW-creeping.
6) See 1.

About the maps being similar, I was just stating this as something that came to my mind, it is not actually a complaint.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Yes, I meant you as the author of the map. But I dont want to exclude others from commenting; in fact it's quite the opposite.

1) I was more worried about the fact that there dropping two big items from a single creepspot, not so much what exact level they are. Commonly such a creepspot would have one lvl 5/6 item + one lvl 2 item. I also realize now that it is also a full air creepcamp, which can be annoying for some armies to creep (breaker casters, melee heavy orcs), but it's not a big issue when common maps have 9-6-6 magic immune golem creepspots which bring comparable issues.
However, you seemed to have made the itemdrops asymmetric with a red drake egg in the northwest and a tome of knowledge in the southeast.
2) It's still hard (as the lvl 5 quilboar will summon two lvl 2 creeps), but ok. I suppose that most humans would still veto it.
3) Looks better indeed. But undeads cant realistically make a wall around their goldmines like they would like to.
4) Merc camp is still very hard for humans since you increased the overall lvl of the creeps there. But the lab is now a good alternative, so it's ok. Just makes the earlygame very predictable.
5) See 4, also applies to AoW-creeping.
6) See 1.

About the maps being similar, I was just stating this as something that came to my mind, it is not actually a complaint.

1) changed, now it has 2 land units for melee. The red drake was a mistake, I probably was going to do that first and aborted it later. Figure it just now. It wasnt my idea asymetric loot or that powerfull loot.
2) reduced to from L14 to L 12.
3) I will need to think around that more.
4) reduced from L18 to L14.
5) AOW should be more % posible.
6) same as 1, a mistake the red drake.

thanks for the hints.

 

[mafe]

If you want an "standard" main base, you can just copy&paste the trees from an established map, and the use the "replace doodad" option to turn them into trees corresponding to your map. Place gold mine and starting position as they were in the map you copied from. Noone will notice

 

[WolfFarkas]

3) Looks better indeed. But undeads cant realistically make a wall around their goldmines like they would like to.

May I question your statement?, 1 barrack, altar, cementery, 4 zigurats, + screen proof... It seems realistic to me. Sorry but I feel the need to differ. Or perhaps you can explain me more your point so I may be able to understand the problem.

If you want an "standard" main base, you can just copy&paste the trees from an established map, and the use the "replace doodad" option to turn them into trees corresponding to your map. Place gold mine and starting position as they were in the map you copied from. Noone will notice

Thanks for the hint, I am using gob labs or barracks to measure distances, like 3 barrack size entrance or 4 size barrack entrance.

so may I ask the status of the map? awaiting update? substandard? , approved?
(no rush, just writting this message so you can write with no double post)

 

[mafe]

Walling matters most in the earlygame, with the intention of keeping (for example) a blademaster, grunts, or a warden from reaching the acolytes too easily. A typical undead wall-in uses 1-2 ziggurats and 2 other buildings, as you can see here: [WC3] Base Walling as Undead or here

The key idea is to have the acolytes protected during the t2 tech, i.e when you have at most 2 zigs, crypt, shop, altar, graveyard. So yes, technically you can make the wall-in your presented, it just doesnt really do the job a wall-in is supposed to do

I think the map is approval-worthy anyway, as this already very much fine-tuning stuff that only matters at the highest level, and the other things I worried about are fixed. I'll get around to check out your other maps over the next days hopefully.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Walling matters most in the earlygame, with the intention of keeping (for example) a blademaster, grunts, or a warden from reaching the acolytes too easily. A typical undead wall-in uses 1-2 ziggurats and 2 other buildings, as you can see here: [WC3] Base Walling as Undead or here

The key idea is to have the acolytes protected during the t2 tech, i.e when you have at most 2 zigs, crypt, shop, altar, graveyard. So yes, technically you can make the wall-in your presented, it just doesnt really do the job a wall-in is supposed to do

I think the map is approval-worthy anyway, as this already very much fine-tuning stuff that only matters at the highest level, and the other things I worried about are fixed. I'll get around to check out your other maps over the next days hopefully.

Great tutorial!!, I will consider it from now on. Thanks!!

About the other maps, take your time, no rush. Chillwind Forest has a design problem that I need to fix yes or yes, but just to have fun, I want to see if you can spot it in your review, so until then.