Alternate Timeline - Arthas Never Becomes The Lich King

[Xanur21]

I've always been a fan of Arthas Menethil. With the death of The Lich King at the end of WotLK, I was quite devastated that Arthas had to die, and there was no way to "save" him and just defeat Ner'zhul. Instead, the Lich King had to live on in Bolvar, as the Jailer of the Damned etc. etc. etc.

So I got to thinking...

I'd like to create my own timeline (as a campaign, or even more than one), in which Arthas never became the Lich King, remained human, and fought alongside the other heroes. I don't want it as simple as Arthas doesn't turn, and everything still happens the way it did. (That would be boring)

I originally thought, what if Jaina were to be persuaded by an Infinite Dragon, to go back in time and reveal the future to Arthas in order to persuade him not to go down the path of culling Stratholme, and succeed. Arthas lives. Great.

But this is where I'd like some help:

• What would the Infinite Dragonflight gain from it?
• Could Jaina continue living in that timeline as her future self? (Having the reward of a life with Arthas for all her hard work) And how?
• I'd also like the Infinite Dragonflight to play an important role in the campaign, for example, using Jaina to succeed in changing the timeline, where they have failed previously in CoT: The Culling of Stratholme, but ultimately betraying her for some greater goal. What would that be?
• The Bronze Dragonflight could also try and stop her/ change things after she persuaded Arthas...but how?
• Could it be possible that the Lich King read her mind when she returned to the timeline, and also saw the future, and planned accordingly, maybe choosing a new champion like Varian or an unknown champion?
• I'd also like the Legion to still make its appearance, but how, if Arthas never invaded Dalaran for Medivh's Spellbook to summon Archimonde? (insert more key events)

Those are just examples of ideas I'd like to expand on. Any contributions would greatly appreciated. And also if anyone feels it's a dud, feel free to say so.

Looking forward to hearing from you guys!

 

[QuillQuickcard]

Ok. This may end up being kind of stream of consciousness, but I'll throw out ideas as they occur to me.

-deep breath, meditative contemplation-

There are several key points at which Jaina could intercede. Depending on the intercession point you desire, I can develop the scenarios much more fully.

The first is right before the culling of Stratholme. This would mean that Arthas would still be enraged, full of a need for revenge, but now also carrying the burden of a known and unknown future. This Arthas would still still want Mal'ganis dead, may even still chase him down, but would not take up Frostmourne, but return the hero that Terenas expected to find. This Arthas may still cross some lines, but in the end, the defeat of Mal'ganis would be his redemption.

The second point of intercession is when Arthas first meets Jaina in the campaign. Future Jaina could make herself magically appear younger and simply step into her younger self's shoes, but with those little bits of future knowledge peppered into things, she can steer Arthas away from the vengeance path altogether. This Arthas would remain the hot-headed idealist, and his concern would be the plague itself, not the plague's creator, though Mal'ganis would still be opposed. This Arthas may even consider Mal'ganis to simply be a demon left behind by the orcs during the second war, and thus may be more harsh against the orcs. In this scenario, younger Jaina would take a backseat, maybe imprisoned, enchanted, or killed. If still alive, young Jaina would eventually reemerge to upset the balance.

The third point of intercession could be before Arthas leaves for Northrend, but after the culling. This Arthas is an anti-hero, tried in his own lands for his "crimes" in stratholme, and ultimately let loose when the plague spreading forces the need of every soldier and paladin. This Arthas can be the contemplative and regretting man, pulled back from the brink he didn't know he was on, and repentant.

The final point of intercession is when Arthas is about the grab Frostmourne. Either future Jaina can stop him forcefully, get the blade herself, or have removed it before hand. This Arthas would be opposed to future Jaina from the first moment, and have to find an inner strength to defeat Mal'ganis. This Arthas also returns a repentant hero, but with the burden of knowing how deep his own darkness goes, and perhaps hesitant to lead again.


In each of this cases, the result is that the Dwarves in Northrend are either killed off or leave with Arthas, so the scourge can continue to grow silently in strength unwatched. Without the forces of Azeroth drawn here in such force, Yogg-Saron is unopposed, and his corruption can continue, perhaps even seizing control of the scourge itself, and integrating the powerful titan and elemental powers he commands. This benefits the infinite dragonflight greatly, as their existence is dependent on old god corruption.

Another result is that Kel'thuzad remains dead, his remains likely permanently destroyed, either openly or in secret. This destroys both of the Lich King's most powerful tools. At this point, he is effectively free, given that the primary method to bring the burning legion through has failed.

The Lich King may even be destroyed for his failure by other dreadlords, leaving them in total control of the scourge, but greatly weakening the ability of the scourge to grow unchecked.

Without Medivh's spellbook or Kel'thuzad, the dark portal becomes once more the primary gateway through which demons could return. With Thrall's people having left, only the fanatic orc clans remain to watch over the gate, so battling orcs could be a powerful story element. The Blackrock, Twilight's Hammer, and some remnant of the Stormreaver orcs would be the ones left, and the legion may turn to them again the reopen the gate.

With the timeline splintered this badly, the Bronze Dragons would have no choice but to aid the evil forces. Either the Legion, the Scourge, or the orcs, to ensure a future where the combined might of Azeroth puts a stop to the old god's corruption in Northrend. I doubt they'd just fly a cadre of drakes into the battle lines of evil, so probably you'd see their aid come in the form of individuals, in disguise, offering little tidbits of advice that help lead things in the "proper" direction. This in turn may gain the ire of the other dragonflights, who would only see a world recovering, gaining peace, and bronze dragons seemingly trying to change that. Hell, the other dragonflights may even team up with the infinites to stop this perceived threat!


...ok. That's all I got for now. But rest assured I will be back.
Quill Quickcard, Loremaster Extraordinaire, is here to aid you!

 

[Xanur21]

You, Sir, are awesome...

Firstly:

I was thinking of bringing Jaina in before Stratholme, maybe by even moving a few key events around: (This is where you would say yea or nay, and if it deviates too much from the original campaign)

1. Arthas sends 'Present Jaina' off to find Uther BEFORE reaching Andorhal.
2. Medivh makes an appearance to Arthas just before he reaches Andorhal.
3. 'Future Jaina' arrives at this point in time, and overlooks Arthas and Medivh's meeting from afar.
4. 'Future Jaina' makes her way to Andorhal, and as she reaches Arthas, the Scourge launches their attack on Andorhal.
5. Kel'Thuzad gets slain at the battle for Andorhal, just like in the original campaign.

I'm just not sure at which stage 'Future Jaina' would get rid of 'Present Jaina'. I'd like Jaina to be frozen in a block of ice and hidden, or kept in a vial/ hourglass, or in a soul orb or something... not killed.

Or maybe she could get killed off, and we could argue that all timelines are seperate, and 'Future Jaina' doesn't disappear from existence, because she still exists in her timeline, or by using a special hourglass only used by Nozdormu she is disconnected from all timelines and consequences of choices made therein. But I think that's stretching it a little too far. What do you think?

Having Jaina reemerge to upset things would be interesting though.

Secondly:

I was thinking of maybe bringing in an event where Muradin would emerge with a "Special Artifact" he brought back from Northrend. Maybe after being aided by the Bronze Dragonflight. Arthas would be tempted to weild Frostmourne once more, but is torn after seeing the future. I don't know.

Also, I saw an interesting model for Frostmourne on WC Underground. It was an Argent version for Frostmourne. Almost like a purified version of it. Could that work somewhere? Maybe second campaign...

I like the idea of the Scourge being left unchecked in Northrend and Yogg-Saron corrupting them, but wouldn't 'Future Jaina' know about Yogg-Saron? Maybe this is where the Infinite Dragonflight can start opposing Jaina and the rest of the heroes...

Thirdly:

I don't know about you, but I kind of like the whole story that WoD brought with Gul'dan and the orcs eventually reverting back to demons. So I definitely like the idea of having another group of orcs, and having to use the Dark Portal as an element.

Fourthly:

The Bronze Dragonflight aiding the evil forces is genius. This whole time I was just thinking of them as "good" guys, instead of thinking of their true purpose: to maintain the current timelines. This could also build on my new Jaina's personality as a vindictive, manipulative sorceress, driven by her past life's grief and misery, who eventually succeeds in crushing the Bronze Dragonflight for "hiding" this possibility/timeline.

Lastly: (this might be taking things too far)

We could also argue that the current Nozdormu is already corrupted, mentally, and actually wanted the Opening of the Dark Portal, Thrall's escape, the Culling etc to happen, in an attempt to create a timeline in which he averts his own demise. The Infinite are actually Bronze Dragonflight from a parallel/ branched off timeline possibility, that got persuaded by Nozdormu to do some stuff that turned them. Nozdormu would then use this Dragonflight as pawns in his current timeline. Adventurers would be sent to kill Murozond in a different timeline, like a "simulated one", or a parallel timeline that only exists as a possibility, parallel to the main timeline, as a distraction. (I don't know, I just feel this guy was too chilled about his death in the End Time after Murozond's defeat, as if that wasn't what the Titans showed him or as if it was never real)

The Infinite Dragonflight keep talking about saving lives and preventing deaths throughout encounters in WoW, so what if we can argue that after Murozond's death, the Infinite Dragonflight that are left, find out they were deceived, and the way things happened, wasn't the way the timeline was supposed to go and was manipulated from the start by Nozdormu to elongate his life.

The Infinite's we faced in WoW, could actually have went back to all these events to prevent their deception in a branched off timeline, by their master. This could also be a reason for them to aid Jaina.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Kel'Thuzad could easily be brought back, since all that's required is someone to carry him to the Sunwell (and even that could be replaced by another source of power). Since most necromancers are ex-Kirin Tor, the Lich King could have them infiltrate Dalaran to gain power there, and even try to corrupt a few elves (for example, Kael'thas still bitter about Jaina choosing Arthas over him).

In fact, you could make Kael'thas the main villain by having him envision the canon version of events (Sunwell destroyed, dealing with Naga, the whole demon serving thing, and all blood elf shenanigans in World of Warcraft), and convince him that Arthas is somehow responsible for this, and while killing him would cause it to happen (demons launch a full-scale invasion with Lordaeron destabilized by the death of its crown prince), it can be averted if, say, Arthas was to search for an artifact of great power somewhere in the far north...

If there are multiple Jainas running around so much the better.

 

[kakuzu]

What about to make Uther to become The Lich King ?

 

[cleavinghammer]

I don't think he has the right mindset for being corrupted. Arthas has all the "will I be a good enough king" expectations and a willingness to kill his own people to prevent them from being turned.

 

[Xanur21]

Kel'Thuzad could easily be brought back, since all that's required is someone to carry him to the Sunwell (and even that could be replaced by another source of power). Since most necromancers are ex-Kirin Tor, the Lich King could have them infiltrate Dalaran to gain power there, and even try to corrupt a few elves (for example, Kael'thas still bitter about Jaina choosing Arthas over him).

The Sunwell could be reached and used once more, but an undead champion weilding Frostmourne would be needed. The champion could be aided by Dar'Khan Drathir, as he aided Arthas originally, to infiltrate Quel'Thalas.

Who would that champion be?

(and even that could be replaced by another source of power)

I believe Kel'Thuzad wanted the Sunwell specifically to be the source of his return. Would be nice if we can think of a different source.

Which other source of power, on Azeroth, is as powerful as the Sunwell to raise Kel'Thuzad?

In fact, you could make Kael'thas the main villain by having him envision the canon version of events (Sunwell destroyed, dealing with Naga, the whole demon serving thing, and all blood elf shenanigans in World of Warcraft), and convince him that Arthas is somehow responsible for this, and while killing him would cause it to happen (demons launch a full-scale invasion with Lordaeron destabilized by the death of its crown prince), it can be averted if, say, Arthas was to search for an artifact of great power somewhere in the far north...

Interesting take on things. I'll take it into consideration. Kael'thas could be a worthy foe.

If there are multiple Jainas running around so much the better.

Indeed it would be.

Should 'Present Jaina' be aware of 'Future Jaina'?

 

[Xanur21]

What about to make Uther to become The Lich King ?

Interesting thought. He'd be a worthy champion, almost as powerful as Arthas if he were to weild Frostmourne, but two questions:

1. What would be his motivation?
2. How do you corrupt someone so pure?

 

[cleavinghammer]

I've never played WoW, but I'm sure there's plenty of undead special characters who could fit the bill.

As for the Sunwell, either go with corrupting Kael'thas into doing it himself, or have the remains brought to Northrend, where he can be brought back much easier.

It'd make for a good stealth level: If Jaina sees her future self, it's game over (or leads to an alternate alternate timeline, if you feel like making a bunch of additional levels).

 

[kakuzu]

Interesting thought. He'd be a worthy champion, almost as powerful as Arthas if he were to weild Frostmourne, but two questions:

1. What would be his motivation?
2. How do you corrupt someone so pure?

1)He has lived in the shadow of King Terenas for long enough.
2)Like Arthas did , step by step , killing undeads, killing orcs, killing humans etc.

 

[Xanur21]

As for the Sunwell, either go with corrupting Kael'thas into doing it himself, or have the remains brought to Northrend, where he can be brought back much easier.

I'll look into it. Thanks!

 

[LISBOAH]

If Arthas doesn´t become the Lich King's champion, then the Ccourge will not be as successful as it should have been. Remember that Lordaeron was capable of holding their ground against the undead but it was the death of King Terenas at the hand of his son that teared their hopes apart.
If Future Jaina were to tell the future to the Alliance, they could launch an assault on Icecrown and destroy the Lich King, leaving the undead leaderless and nothing more but beasts without neither control nor unity.
Ner'zhul must have spent years plotting to turn Arthas into his champion so if this plan were to fail he could not find another replacement in time. And without a proper champion, destroying Quel'Thalas' defense would be impossible, therefore Kel'Thuzad would stay dead for good, this if Jaina doesn´t decide to burn his remains.

 

[QuillQuickcard]

The world tree is a font of power on par with the sunwell. That could get the undead to Kalimdor.

 

[LISBOAH]

The world tree is a font of power on par with the sunwell. That could get the undead to Kalimdor.

But the undead would be not powerful enough to destroy the night elves' defenses. They did it because Cenarius was dead, the Horde and Alliance were entering Ashenvale and they had the backup of the demons.

 

[kakuzu]

But the undead would be not powerful enough to destroy the night elves' defenses. They did it because Cenarius was dead, the Horde and Alliance were entering Ashenvale and they had the backup of the demons.

I think that the undead was the backup . Archmonde and his demons invaded Kalimdor , the undead was just the second army.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Maybe they could use the Maelstrom instead, allying with the naga? The naga showing up earlier than expected could have interesting repercussions, like future Jaina not knowing what's going to happen.

 

[LISBOAH]

I think that the undead was the backup . Archimonde and his demons invaded Kalimdor , the undead was just the second army.

Yes but the demons only invaded thanks to the undeads. The Scourge had two missions: to create a portal for the Legion and to destroy possible threats to its return, like Lordaeron and the High Elves.

Without Arthas as their champion, the Scourge may not be able of defeating the Alliance or destroy Silvermoon in order to ressurect Kel'Thuzad, who could summon Archimonde.

If the undeads were to attack the World Tree, it would be very difficult without a substantial amount of demons. In the final mission of Eternity's End they did it with a great amount of casualities, imagine it without the demons.

 

[cleavinghammer]

In the first game, Nerzhul is working with the demons to summon Archimonde, so he could count on their support even with Arthas out of the way. Maybe the dreadlords could mount an attack on Lordaeron instead, with Mal'Ganis having a bigger role (maybe he could summon demon reinforcements, even bring in Magtheridon or Mannoroth since the subtle approach fails).

Does Jaina prevent the plagued grain from being distributed in the first place in this timeline?

 

[Xanur21]

Does Jaina prevent the plagued grain from being distributed in the first place in this timeline?

No, I don't believe she can/ will. Her one true mission is to save Arthas from the dark path he's going down. The Scourge would still be a threat, if I can think of an appropriate champion to replace Arthas. I was reconsidering Uther, as previously suggested.

Could he be corrupted by, let's say, Kel'Thuzad's soul latching onto his hammer or tome, whispering to him continuously, driving him to madness?

Otherwise, the plague can spread through the Eastern Kingdoms, but be more easily detained and maybe eradicated later on. The Scourge can also reemerge years later as a threat, only now controlled by Yogg-Saron, or maybe be aided by the Bronze Dragonflight, as also previously mentioned.

 

[DD Mikasa]

Hmm...Interesting indeed.

So Arthas becomes the humanity hero.
The most suitable characters to fill in for him should be Grom Hellscream(assuming he does not get courrupted)

In a sens both Grom and Arthas are the same,willing to pay any price for their people to preserve.

So how does Grom become the new Lich king?

Two routes.

1.He does not leave Lorderon together with Thrall.
2.He does leave Lorderon but later on when Thrall sends him to Ashenvale he deviates from that route and gose to lich king.

In both scenarios Cenarius stays alive .

 

[cleavinghammer]

The way I saw it, if the grain never makes it out, the Culling never happens, and so Arthas never has the need to kill Mal'Ganis.

So the dreadlords turn to Grom, remove him from the ship (again, maybe the naga get involved) and reactivate the fel orcs in Lordaeron.

 

[kakuzu]

Hmm...Interesting indeed.

So Arthas becomes the humanity hero.
The most suitable characters to fill in for him should be Grom Hellscream(assuming he does not get courrupted)

In a sens both Grom and Arthas are the same,willing to pay any price for their people to preserve.

So how does Grom become the new Lich king?

Two routes.

1.He does not leave Lorderon together with Thrall.
2.He does leave Lorderon but later on when Thrall sends him to Ashenvale he deviates from that route and gose to lich king.

In both scenarios Cenarius stays alive .

Thats really an interesting idea but what will happen with Grom sacrifice to kill Mannoroth ?

 

[DD Mikasa]

Thats really an interesting idea but what will happen with Grom sacrifice to kill Mannoroth ?

Mannaoroth will be forced to face Cenarius alone in the battlefiled without using the fel orcs to do it.He "might die" or make a run for it to save his hide.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Mannoroth vs. Cenarius one-on-one would likely be in Mannoroth's favor, but without the fel orcs the Legion would have to start burning down the forests. Basically, they start burning it down in a straight line heading for the World Tree, forcing Cenarius to fight on scorched earth.

Also, if the Warsong doesn't show up in Kalimdor, neither do Jaina's humans, meaning Thrall's journey to the Prophet is a lot smoother, having befriended the tauren as before. The non-fel orcs and night elves could then be allies right off the bat, making the continent much harder to conquer for the demons. Of course, we also need Jaina and Thrall to meet at some point so they can trust each other.

And in Lordaeron, Jaina can start organizing refugee fleets with her father much earlier, once she meets Medhiv and they compare notes on the timeline's future. She can also convince Antonidas that Medhiv is correct.

The Grom vs Mannoroth fight could happen after he fuses with Ner'zhul, seeking to free the Scourge from the Burning Legion.

 

[Xanur21]

Mannoroth vs. Cenarius one-on-one would likely be in Mannoroth's favor, but without the fel orcs the Legion would have to start burning down the forests. Basically, they start burning it down in a straight line heading for the World Tree, forcing Cenarius to fight on scorched earth.

Also, if the Warsong doesn't show up in Kalimdor, neither do Jaina's humans, meaning Thrall's journey to the Prophet is a lot smoother, having befriended the tauren as before. The non-fel orcs and night elves could then be allies right off the bat, making the continent much harder to conquer for the demons. Of course, we also need Jaina and Thrall to meet at some point so they can trust each other.

And in Lordaeron, Jaina can start organizing refugee fleets with her father much earlier, once she meets Medhiv and they compare notes on the timeline's future. She can also convince Antonidas that Medhiv is correct.

The Grom vs Mannoroth fight could happen after he fuses with Ner'zhul, seeking to free the Scourge from the Burning Legion.

Medivh tried to convince most of the human leaders, i.e. Terenas, Arthas, Antonidas, to travel to the west, despite what the outcome with the Scourge might have been in the Eastern Kingdoms. So even if Jaina were to succeed in convincing Arthas, I believe she'd also try to convince everyone else to travel west, knowing that Archimonde might still find a way onto Azeroth and head for the World Tree.

Jaina and the rest of the humans might still meet up with the remaining orcs, but would already know who the prophet is, and what his message was, therefore maybe putting their efforts towards befriending the orcs and NE's much earlier.

The idea of using remaining orc clans in the Eastern Kingdoms to reopen the Dark Portal for Archimonde's arrival, is an interesting one. One could use this idea to cause segregation among the different orc clans (Shamans vs. Warlocks, Thrall's orcs vs. Grom's orcs), to create a clear break between those orcs who would counter the Legion alongside the other races, those who would serve the Legion and those who would later become part of the Scourge if Grom were to become the Lich King.

The way I saw it, if the grain never makes it out, the Culling never happens, and so Arthas never has the need to kill Mal'Ganis.

So the dreadlords turn to Grom, remove him from the ship (again, maybe the naga get involved) and reactivate the fel orcs in Lordaeron.

I understand that, but I believe there were so many points of distribution, and so many different groups of cultists working on it, that it would be impossible to stop all of it at once. You would have to stop the Cult of the Damned from forming in the first place, which would also be an impossible task.

 

[DD Mikasa]

I understand that, but I believe there were so many points of distribution, and so many different groups of cultists working on it, that it would be impossible to stop all of it at once. You would have to stop the Cult of the Damned from forming in the first place, which would also be an impossible task.

Please do not double post.Just edit your first post if you have something new to add.

 

[Xanur21]

My apologies.

 

[PublishedShadow]

If you're altering the timeline, may as well keep sylvanus alive.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Hey yeah.

Okay, so if Sylvanas is still alive and kicking, the demons have a slightly harder time taking Quel'thalas. So we'd need a way to remove her, either Jaina or Kael'thas could be used for that.

 

[DD Mikasa]

Hey yeah.

Okay, so if Sylvanas is still alive and kicking, the demons have a slightly harder time taking Quel'thalas. So we'd need a way to remove her, either Jaina or Kael'thas could be used for that.

Or she just simply survieves and protects her homeland from the Dreadlords who are trying to revive Kel'thuzad.

 

[Xanur21]

If you're altering the timeline, may as well keep sylvanus alive.

If Arthas never invades Quel'Thalas, he never kills Sylvanas.

Hey yeah.

Okay, so if Sylvanas is still alive and kicking, the demons have a slightly harder time taking Quel'thalas. So we'd need a way to remove her, either Jaina or Kael'thas could be used for that.

Why would Jaina remove Sylvanas? If anything, I believe Jaina would rather strengthen the Alliance by saving Quel'Thalas from invasion, and bolster their ranks with the addition of the High Elves to the survivors of Lordaeron.

I don't believe Kael'thas would betray his own people. The only reason he betrayed them in The Burning Crusade, was because of his thirst for magic and power AFTER the Sunwell was destroyed.

Or she just simply survieves and protects her homeland from the Dreadlords who are trying to revive Kel'thuzad.

There is still Dar'Khan Drathir though, who would deliver Quel'Thalas into the hands of the Scourge/ the Legion, as he did with Arthas.

 

[kakuzu]

What about Medivh coruption ?

 

[DD Mikasa]

There is still Dar'Khan Drathir though, who would deliver Quel'Thalas into the hands of the Scourge/ the Legion, as he did with Arthas.

Let's not forget that sinc Arthas is not evil he most likely will be send to Quel'Thalas to aid Sylvanas or Uther might do that.So Quel'thalas or at least Sylvanas will be preserved.

 

[Xanur21]

What about Medivh coruption ?

I don't know if that would be possible. The whole reason Medivh returned as the Prophet after his death was to pay a part of his debts for the sins he committed in the past, whilst under the influence of Sargeras. Medivh chose not to get directly involved in the Third War, and some speculate that Medivh was only a ghost in WC3 for that reason.

Let's not forget that sinc Arthas is not evil he most likely will be send to Quel'Thalas to aid Sylvanas or Uther might do that.So Quel'thalas or at least Sylvanas will be preserved.

True. I just meant that the possibility for Quel'Thalas to fall is still there, and Sylvanas could still be killed in battle. The Fel Orcs could be used towards the reopening of the Dark Portal to summon Archimonde, and an assault on Quel'Thalas to weaken the High Elves and prevent resistance from their side as an alternative to the Scourge.

 

[PublishedShadow]

I simply meant you could do an entirely different outcome with Sylvanus - mainly that being preventing her from becoming the Banshee Queen. She's a pretty prominent character after all and there are many creative things you can do. Imagine her response after Jaina tells her of her fate in the normal timeline.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Jaina removing her in the sense that she knows that if Sylvanas stays in Quel'thalas, she'll end up zombified, so she tries to get Sylvanas as far from the undead as she can (after all, even with her around the elven resistance wasn't exactly formidable).

 

[Xanur21]

I simply meant you could do an entirely different outcome with Sylvanus - mainly that being preventing her from becoming the Banshee Queen. She's a pretty prominent character after all and there are many creative things you can do. Imagine her response after Jaina tells her of her fate in the normal timeline.

Certainly. At this stage I'm not very keen on letting her die again, nor am I keen on recreating the Forsaken.

Jaina removing her in the sense that she knows that if Sylvanas stays in Quel'thalas, she'll end up zombified, so she tries to get Sylvanas as far from the undead as she can (after all, even with her around the elven resistance wasn't exactly formidable).

Okay, I see. Sorry, I understood 'remove' as 'exterminate'. That could also be a possibility, but would Sylvanas leave her people, to fend for themselves, willingly?

Then another question to all:

Would it be wise for Jaina to tell everyone that she is from the future? Or should she just tell Arthas, and maybe one or two other characters, and together they can try and influence other characters to manipulate the outcome?

 

[PublishedShadow]

There's a very good chance she would try to tell Thrall, but he would probably not want to listen to his future.

 

[cleavinghammer]

I don't think she should tell anyone at all that she's from the future, anyone important enough to be told ends up dead or undead. Maybe just herself, and even then it might be better to put her in statis and take her own place.

Also, Medhiv should take a stance on altering the timeline. For example, maybe he can't see this one's future exactly, but he sees that it doesn't end with the battle of Mount Hyjal, and for him that means the only outcome is that the three factions don't ally and thus the Burning Legion wins, leading him to oppose Jaina's efforts.

 

[Xanur21]

There's a very good chance she would try to tell Thrall, but he would probably not want to listen to his future.

I was thinking of instead of 'telling' them, she could show them visions of what she saw through her eyes, to make it more believable. Whether they want it or not. She doesn't necessarily have to show them the whole future, maybe just bits of it, here and there.

I don't think she should tell anyone at all that she's from the future, anyone important enough to be told ends up dead or undead. Maybe just herself, and even then it might be better to put her in statis and take her own place.

Arthas will be reluctant to listen to Jaina at first, so she will have to cast a spell of sorts to project images from her memory into his mind, for him to actually see the consequences of his choices and listen to reason.

 

[DD Mikasa]

The Fel Orcs could be used towards the reopening of the Dark Portal to summon Archimonde, and an assault on Quel'Thalas to weaken the High Elves and prevent resistance from their side as an alternative to the Scourge.

If Grom becomes the new lich king then there will be no Fel orcs.Remember Grom foced his men to drink from the pool.There will be only the Black roll clan orcs whom Arthas and Kel'thuzad killed to take the portal.Those weaklings can become the new fell orcs but i highly doubt it they could summon Archimond by themselfs and with Mannoroth leading the war in east(kalimdor) there would be no one left to make them fel orcs.

 

[Xanur21]

If Grom becomes the new lich king then there will be no Fel orcs.Remember Grom foced his men to drink from the pool.

What if orc clans left behind in the Eastern Kingdoms were to be contacted by the Legion and persuaded to drink demon blood, as previously suggested? It doesn't have to be the Warsong Clan.

 

[cleavinghammer]

The thing with the memory projection is that it could just as easily be dismissed as, well, a magic show. Even if Arthas believes her you should have a character think she's making it all up for whatever reason.

As for Grom, it could be similar to the canon: the dreadlords force the orcs into a situation where they either take Mannoroth's blood or die. Or trick them (they only knew it was demon blood because the witch doctor warned them) into doing so.

 

[DD Mikasa]

What if orc clans left behind in the Eastern Kingdoms were to be contacted by the Legion and persuaded to drink demon blood, as previously suggested? It doesn't have to be the Warsong Clan.

If i recall Thrall split his forces into two armys.

1.Warsong clan who went into lumberjacking duty
2.Main force who went to oracle.

If Grom wants to become the new Lich king he will have to go through Ilidan and his nagas (not blood elf mentioned sinc we don't know the fate of Quel'thalas)so he will have to take his warsong army with him.Thrall won't allow his orcs to fall to for legions cheap trick.Like i told you the only reason why Warsong became Fel orcs was cuz Grom forced his men to drink from the pool.

Like i mentioned before the only canditates to become Fel Orcs are the orcs left back to Lorderon.But as i said Mannoroth is on east to fight the Night Elfs so there is no one left to courupt the orcs left behind in Lorderon.

 

[cleavinghammer]

He split them up, but he had to meet up with them first. So if he has only his forces he wouldn't split them, going straight for the Oracle with no resistance from humans.

And Illidan hasn't even been broken out by this point. I think the skull of Gul'dan is still in the Legion's possession.

 

[DD Mikasa]

He split them up, but he had to meet up with them first. So if he has only his forces he wouldn't split them, going straight for the Oracle with no resistance from humans.

And Illidan hasn't even been broken out by this point. I think the skull of Gul'dan is still in the Legion's possession.

Anyway my point is that with Grom as the new Lich king the chances of seeing Fel Orcs are really slim.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Which is why they either need to be tricked into doing so or face a threat that requires it.

Or simply overpower them: the orcs get captured by demons, held captive, and forced to drink Mannoroth's blood.

That way a Grom vs Mannoroth fight can still work: if drinking demon blood was forced rather than voluntary this time, it might not have as strong
a hold over Grom, which Ner'zhul can then exploit.

 

[Xanur21]

The thing with the memory projection is that it could just as easily be dismissed as, well, a magic show. Even if Arthas believes her you should have a character think she's making it all up for whatever reason.

As for Grom, it could be similar to the canon: the dreadlords force the orcs into a situation where they either take Mannoroth's blood or die. Or trick them (they only knew it was demon blood because the witch doctor warned them) into doing so.

A character who doesn't believe her would make for an interesting puzzle piece in the story. Seeds of doubt could even be spread further by disguised Bronze Dragonflight agents in an attempt to correct the timeline.

If i recall Thrall split his forces into two armys.

1.Warsong clan who went into lumberjacking duty
2.Main force who went to oracle.

If Grom wants to become the new Lich king he will have to go through Ilidan and his nagas (not blood elf mentioned sinc we don't know the fate of Quel'thalas)so he will have to take his warsong army with him.Thrall won't allow his orcs to fall to for legions cheap trick.Like i told you the only reason why Warsong became Fel orcs was cuz Grom forced his men to drink from the pool.

Like i mentioned before the only canditates to become Fel Orcs are the orcs left back to Lorderon.But as i said Mannoroth is on east to fight the Night Elfs so there is no one left to courupt the orcs left behind in Lorderon.

I remember the original story about the orcs' corruption and how it happened. I'm not talking about Grom or Thrall's clans. Not yet though. There are many other clans (e.g. the Blackrock clan) that could be corrupted originally to cull the Eastern Kingdoms. If you can remember the mission where Arthas had to kill a Blademaster that was sacrificing peasants to old demon masters.

Mannoroth was originally in the Eastern Kingdoms, and then traveled to Kalimdor to find Grom and his orcs. He could always stay behind and first corrupt the other clans, then move on to Kalimdor.

He split them up, but he had to meet up with them first. So if he has only his forces he wouldn't split them, going straight for the Oracle with no resistance from humans.

And Illidan hasn't even been broken out by this point. I think the skull of Gul'dan is still in the Legion's possession.

The skull of Gul'dan is still in possession of the Legion. It was Arthas originally who told Illidan about the skull and it's power. So Illidan might not defect if he doesn't learn about the skull's existence.



I'll update the original post this coming weekend with what I've decided on so far, then further speculation can be based upon that.

 

[kakuzu]

The skull of Gul'dan is still in possession of the Legion. It was Arthas originally who told Illidan about the skull and it's power. So Illidan might not defect if he doesn't learn about the skull's existence.
I'll update the original post this coming weekend with what I've decided on so far, then further speculation can be based upon that.

So Illidan may never consume the skull of Gul‘Dan so Furion wont banish Illidan and they will fight together in the battle of Mount Hyjal.

 

[cleavinghammer]

I think Illidan transforming should still happen. Illidan being released was unplanned for originally, so maybe this time Furion asks Maiev to release Illidan, tagging along with him so he doesn't escape. Illidan is less than thrilled, especially when he sees Tyrande still prefers Furion over him, and when the demons bring out the skull during the final battle (maybe as a powerup for their troops or a troop spawner or something), Illidan sacrifices himself to take out the skull, and emerges in his hybrid demon-night elf form.