(4) Muddied Rivers

[Moderator]

23:09, 28th Jun 2015
This melee map has become approvable. It is quite unique in its type since it provides a challenging gameplay because of the 2 expansion gold mines for 4 players and since it offers walls which are a way to build defenses. Item drops improved so I don't see a reason to await other updates. This is approved with a rating of 3/5.

01:29, 27th Jun 2015
Shadow Fury: Map set to needs fix for further updates.

 

[Shaeam]

As my profile suggests; I am Shaeam. Just commenting to avoid any future confusion that might pop up due to the different names.

 

[Ardenian]

Review of (4) Muddied Rivers Release Version Visuals and Aesthetics You created a terrain that greatly matches the default Blizzard style. The tile variation seemed overall okay, although it was a bit messy at the entrances of the bases ( there where the white walls are). Totally lacking was the use of doodads. While the edges and borders of the isle are overall well designed, the interior of the isle contains hardly any doodad. You could add some rock groups, maybe some more bushes and grass, as you already did. The water areas felt as if the isle is a bit flooded, maybe add some borders suing doodads like rocks or reduce them a bit, to give them more of a river, if you do not intend to make it look as if the isle is flooded, Shaeam, especially because the map is called 'Muddied Rivers'. Gameplay and Strategy The idea of adding only two gold mines the players can expand to promises hard and fast-paced gameplay. It was enjoyable that you added white walls to the bases, well, to one entrance, as they give the option to base block and to set up a nice defence with towers. The base size felt alright, I think it is well chosen. Result Overall a good map for melee game players, lacking advanced visuals, but giving tactical options and promises hard gameplay. Also notable is the perfect (?) mirror this map features, so no disadvantage is given to any player. Good job, Shaeam.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

If you want my advice, I'd tell you that this map would benefit a lot by being extended. There are a lot of tight passages in this map, which will definitely cripple the large armies.
There is also the problem with expansions. Some races rely more heavily on them then others, not to mention that expanding is essential part of the game overall, so the map needs more goldmines (plus 4, as least).
The existing expansion areas are could use more space as well. Try placing a several buildings on the map yourself. That is one of the ways to check out if you have enough space to build a base/expansion.

Visually, the map is more or less okay, but it would benefit from more decorative doodads, as well as better tile management.

Now there's also a problem with items. The levels of item drops were adequate, but classes weren't, as you set a random class per item drop, instead of labeling it as Permanent, Charged, Power Up, etc. You need to set class for every item drops, not just it's level.
To better understand this, you might wanna check out other melee maps, but don't rely on Blizzard's maps too heavily, as quite a few of them have imbalanced item drops.

 

[Shaeam]

Quote

Thanks for the detailed review, I took some of your feedback and added it to the map -- namely the part about the tile variation around the white walls not being exceptional. I updated it slightly, hopefully it looks better now!

I also went ahead and added a variety of selected doodads around the map. I'm cautious, I don't really want to have too much detail since I'm aiming for the simplistic style present in Blizzard's maps. (which is my prime inspiration)

Quote

Thanks for your advice; unfortunately, I have decided to design the map around the concepts of having tight and more focused battles (which also explains my choice to only have two gold mines). The testing that I've done internally have yielded some nice results with this focus, particularly 2v2 where you can actually cooperate with your ally and flank the exit routes.

However, I've taken your advice on item drops to heart and I've made some changes to the drops that creeps make based on your suggestion. Hopefully this leads to more interesting gameplay.


All-in-all I look forward to improving this map as much as possible; if I've missed anything, feel free to let me know!

 

[Shadow Fury]

This time I'll go for a short review:

1- Tile variation was good enough but the doodads could be used in a better way. Adding shrubs and flowers around trees can create a good forestish atmosphere.

2- Creep camps were proper but item drops were not. They are generally underpowered. For example, let's take the Ogre Lord creep camp (summed level of its creeps = 15). He drops a random level 4 item, which is almost nothing compared to the total level. Another example is the Ogre Mauler camp (sum 11) which gives only a level 2 item. Quite miserable, don't you think?

3- This is the core problem! Your terrain is far too restricted. The ramps themselves are too small and the walled parts are too narrow for army clashes. In addition, there is a clear advantage to the top players regarding the walled parts. The top players have less unbuildable tiles (Rock + Cobble Path), which means that they can construct more towers exactly behind the walls than the bot players. Unfair and unbalanced... Furthermore, the expansion gold mines are too tiny as well. Most crucial are the ramps leading to them. I can easily clump some towers there, put some ranged units, block the way and create an almost impenetrable defense against ground units.

Overall, you should consider:

1- Adding more vegetation doodads to your terrain
2- Adding more unbuildable tiles to the top players in the walled parts OR removing some unbuildable tiles from the bot players in the walled parts
3- Increasing the levels of some items dropped
4- Widening the small and restricted areas

As for now, this is set to needs fix.

 

[Shaeam]

This time I'll go for a short review:

1- Tile variation was good enough but the doodads could be used in a better way. Adding shrubs and flowers around trees can create a good forestish atmosphere.

2- Creep camps were proper but item drops were not. They are generally underpowered. For example, let's take the Ogre Lord creep camp (summed level of its creeps = 15). He drops a random level 4 item, which is almost nothing compared to the total level. Another example is the Ogre Mauler camp (sum 11) which gives only a level 2 item. Quite miserable, don't you think?

3- This is the core problem! Your terrain is far too restricted. The ramps themselves are too small and the walled parts are too narrow for army clashes. In addition, there is a clear advantage to the top players regarding the walled parts. The top players have less unbuildable tiles (Rock + Cobble Path), which means that they can construct more towers exactly behind the walls than the bot players. Unfair and unbalanced... Furthermore, the expansion gold mines are too tiny as well. Most crucial are the ramps leading to them. I can easily clump some towers there, put some ranged units, block the way and create an almost impenetrable defense against ground units.

Overall, you should consider:

1- Adding more vegetation doodads to your terrain
2- Adding more unbuildable tiles to the top players in the walled parts OR removing some unbuildable tiles from the bot players in the walled parts
3- Increasing the levels of some items dropped
4- Widening the small and restricted areas

As for now, this is set to needs fix.

Thanks for the reply.

Although as far as the terrain -- I'm not trying to make it look like a forest. It's supposed to be a few sparse spots of greenery with the majority being a mudslide/muddied water. I'll add some more detail where I can, but for the most part I'm happy with how it looks as a whole.

The 'restricted' areas was, I as I mentioned before, an intentional design decision. I'm not interested in changing this -- since it's what makes the map unique. My intentions were to have plenty of flanking routes and opportunities for team play (in the event of a 2v2) or simply opportunity for some fairly excellent macro play... Although, I will see what I can do about making the expansion more 'siege-able' through some means.

I will, however, continue working on the drops. It's been a problem that's been brought up a couple of times now (and apparently my latest update didn't change things), needless to say -- it wasn't an intentional design choice and needs to be fixed.

You make a fairly good point about the tiles near the white walls, too. The idea I had there was to help give the defender an advantage against the typical attack route. I'll be removing a good portion of obstructing tiles that prevent doing this comfortably. I didn't notice the imbalance there.


Edit: I have updated the map -- if there's any further problems feel free to let me know so I can correct them!

 

[Shadow Fury]

Good that you updated the map, I'll check it out again.
The problem with the restricted areas is that they do not allow large army clashes. You get to see part of the army fighting and the rest behind *watching* the battle, that's why I emphasize this point.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

The item drops could use a bit more work, but you improved them a lot since the last time.

One more thing, if you really want to increase the game's intensity, you should reduce the amount of gold in main gold mines to 10,000 - 15,000. Maybe 40,000 is a bit too much.

 

[Shaeam]

Updates and tweaks coming today, I've changed the mine gold and tweaked the creep camps to have maximum mana immediately after the map starts.

Edit: Added some very experimental gameplay changes! Feedback is very much appreciated! Goblin Zepplins are now a feature of this map, hopefully, this will help to settle alot of the complaints about the 'tightness' of the map without sacrificing my initial micro intensive vision. I've also added two new 'safe' expansions based on player feedback. If feedback on this new update is mostly negative I will revert back to a prior (still updated) version of the map.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

It's good to see you're still updating. Those islands will definitely add more to the game. But I'd advise you to add islands on all four side so all players have equal mount of gold, while still competing for the mines in the middle.

New problems emerge however. The creep camps on those islands way to close to each other, and will help each other when one is attacked, which is something that you should avoid.
Also, the Goblin Merchant creep camp has too strong drops for it's current level (Level 4 drops is too much for couple of Murlocs).
Now the Goblin Labs you've added are on the side of the road and player won't be able to avoid confrontation with them during the day if he takes that road. The creep camps should always be kept away from the main road, so a player doesn't engage them without against his will.
Again, this problem exists because the map is too small. Please try extending it a bit.

There's one thing I forgot to tell you and you should definitely do it. Go to Scenario > Map Options > Game Data Set. You'll see that it is set to default, which means your not using the latest patch. Set it to Melee (Latest Patch) and you're good to go.

 

[Shaeam]

Updated. I'm not expanding the size of the map since it jeopardizes my vision for the map. However; I will continue to tweak things until I hit a compromise. For more information about the update, I've documented everything under the change logs. In essence, I've done every thing you suggested, including moving the Golem camp off the main road.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Good work. I hope to see more maps from you.

Just one more thing. You actually didn't set the map to latest patch. Don't worry if it says the map is not melee anymore. It's completely misleading and it counts for nothing really.

 

[Shaeam]

Good work. I hope to see more maps from you.

Just one more thing. You actually didn't set the map to latest patch. Don't worry if it says the map is not melee anymore. It's completely misleading and it counts for nothing really.

Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to allow me. When I save it the option defaults back to... well... Default. Not sure what is going on there...

It should be alright though, I noticed the Default option says 'depends on melee map status', so I'm assuming that it'll automatically apply the latest patches (and act like the melee map option) since the map is technically a 'melee' map.

Edit 1: To clarify, it asks me if it's okay to make it a non-melee map, and I do click yes -- so that's not the problem.

Edit 2: Right well, I put things to the test by testing out both options using a necropolis. Both options were the same, so I have essentially confirmed both by testing and by reference that the Melee Patch doesn't do anything different to the map. I also figured out that strangely enough -- I CAN save some maps using the melee patch option, just not this particular one. Might have something to do with NewJass Editor or something -- not really sure.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

It's not the same actually, they did a lot of re-balancing which will not be applied to the default patch. If it says "Your map will no longer be melee" when you do it, or something like that, ignore it. It means nothing.

EDIT: If that's not the problem, then I really don't know what it is.

 

[Shaeam]

Updated;
Fixed an oversight from me and added passive neutral creeps that wander the map. This means that the mechanical critter item from humans doesn't go useless -- I've seem some really good plays using it and I can't believe I left it out.

 

[Arrr]

Try opening it with the default editor, and save, should work

Real quick: your map could go for big changes, but it is overall fine as it is now

Critical things to change: ramps too narrow, shop too hard to reach, item drops being way too powerful

About item drops:
Ogre mine camp is fine
Golem lab camp: lv3permanent can stay(or even make it charged), lv2 powerup has to go
medium ogre camp: lv4permanent is too much, better lv2/3 perm or lv3Charg
green murloc camp: make it drop nothing
Green gnoll camp: lv3perm is way too much, make it drop either lv1perm either lv1 powerup
Medium murloc camp: it drops too much stuff for being that easy, maybe just a lv2 powerup
Big trollMine camp: make it drop lv5perm/charged + lv1/2 powerup
Isle murloc camp: lv1perm + lv1powerup or lv2 perm
Isle BanditMine camp: lv5perm/charged + lv2 powerup

 

[Shaeam]

Updated;
Added your creep camp suggestions, I also went ahead and took the time to move the Goblin Merchant(s) off the expansion Islands and onto main-land, putting Fountains of Health where they once were. Thanks for the valuable feedback!

Try opening it with the default editor, and save, should work

Real quick: your map could go for big changes, but it is overall fine as it is now

Critical things to change: ramps too narrow, shop too hard to reach, item drops being way too powerful

About item drops:
Ogre mine camp is fine
Golem lab camp: lv3permanent can stay(or even make it charged), lv2 powerup has to go
medium ogre camp: lv4permanent is too much, better lv2/3 perm or lv3Charg
green murloc camp: make it drop nothing
Green gnoll camp: lv3perm is way too much, make it drop either lv1perm either lv1 powerup
Medium murloc camp: it drops too much stuff for being that easy, maybe just a lv2 powerup
Big trollMine camp: make it drop lv5perm/charged + lv1/2 powerup
Isle murloc camp: lv1perm + lv1powerup or lv2 perm
Isle BanditMine camp: lv5perm/charged + lv2 powerup