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(2)Waste Factory

Submitted by Zucth
This bundle is marked as approved. It works and satisfies the submission rules.
(2)Waste Factory v1.16
Player Suggest: 1v1
For: Hive Cup 2020: Melee Mapping Contest #6
Map Creator: Zucth

edit: frost armor>cold arrow
poison>purge
disease[bash]>heal/frost armor.
none>fairie fire
cursed>poison
[​IMG]

[​IMG]

Map Description:
Formerly the Waste Factory was one of the places to store weapons and supplies for Dalaran, but when Dalaran fell, this area was later wiped out. But recently it was as if it was going to be restored. By an independent alliance.

Neutral Building:
4 Expansion Goldmines (Main-13250, yellow-10500, red-9500)
1 Tavern
2 Goblin Merchant
2 Shipyard
2 Gateway

Creep Camp:
8 Green
10 Orange
2 Red

Information:
-most of neutral building and camp live on the side
-portals [may cause unbalance but it maybe good to risk for boat gameplay]
-tile set (Black Citadel + Felwood + Asvenhale)
-similar to NI

About shipyard
-The shipyard in this map design for an additional help for player to raid and to get away. You can see it from the position of shipyard that give the player, and the position of the portal, or all shallow water spot. This will not cause the game effect in term of camping, but will make a possible move for the raid. and it impossible to camping these spot cause the shallow some are large and unbuildable. You can see the ship route in the photo below.

-I think that how to make boat work in wc3 is to make, by making the boat more interesting in the form of an additional, rather than forcing players to use ships for certain areas[camping, neutral building]. But must make the shipping routes efficient and not contrary to the shape of the route in the ladder, which I think is very difficult as well. I'm not sure how much my use of the gateway will promote the use of the boat as an add-on. By here, I will try to show the effectiveness of this idea. Use a comparison with the map on the ladder like "Northern Isles", if you found it similar somehow that's why.

-still working on and look for fixing
-I hope for more feedback, about what else did I missed here.

[/SPOILER]

-1.16 update after the contest.

-fixed all the problem creep. [unless cripple camp]
-remove cliff near cripple expo
-red camp expo added reju bear and change black bird to fairie fire lv6
-replace all the critter [remove flying critter]
-remove neutral player building from a visual decoration
-space [where narrow] rebuild, also more space to expo
-added trees
-move gob shop position close to the route

-also wanna mention about cliff fixing. I can't remove whole it destroy the map terrain somehow. Idk the cliff seem like spread around more which Idk how to fixed it. so most part of the cliff will stay there.

-big thanks to everyone in the comment for many mentioned of the balance.
Contents

(2)Waste Factory (Map)

Reviews
mafe
Approved based on the reviews of the recent melee mapping contest: Night Stream
  1. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    I like the layout a lot.
    There's a lot of high ground areas, but you can almost always choose to fight on an equal footing.
    I'm not sure how useful boats are here, but at least they're optional and can be used for safety.
    You're using doodads more liberally this time around which is an improvement.

    Placing race buildings as neutral buildings is a bit of a wierd thing to do.
    I can't think of a good reason not to do it, but i wouldn't do it myself as it's an outlandish thing to do.
    Same with using units from races or neutral units, in this case clockwerks.
    There's one map using hawk to detect blademasters, but that's the only scenario i feel like it's acceptable since blizzard didn't grant mapmakers neutral units with true sight.

    Visually speaking though i think you're trying too many ideas at once.
    The outland tileset matched with dark greens doesn't look good.
    I think any other tileset like dalaren, cityscape or ruins would look pretty here.
    Especially if you just used normal grass tiles.

    Creeps are a bit lol.
    Again i recommend reading Mafe's guide on the section about creeps.
    You're using purge, envenomed weapons and sleep in one camp, that's a nightmare to creep.
    All of these should be used sparsely.

    -Envenomed weapons creeps should be used if you're thinking that humans have too much of an advantage and you want to give other races some advantage over HU. Since HU rely early on militia to creep. The way creep AI works is that they will attempt to poison every unit. This ability deals 80 damage in total. So HU can take insane damage. (Broodmother)
    -Purge works well to nerf Archmage, Crypt Lord and Far Seer because they will purge summons. (The lvl 2 lizard in this case)
    -Sleep is like, ensnare but just annoying. It's not bad, but if you can use ensnare over sleep then do it. (Dark High Priest)
     
  2. Zucth

    Zucth

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    About tile set I think it's about personal preference, I don't know though because for me I see that it fit well not gonna lied xD (Sorry for that once again), and it's not outland, it's black citadel.
    "Placing race buildings as neutral buildings" Welp, I don't know but don't it make the map more nature look?
    About creep, maybe I did over look it. Thank you for point out I will look forward. (And those small detail about creep using)
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
  3. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    i think visuals are totaly fine work a little on other things
     
  4. Zucth

    Zucth

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    Thx, and if you can say which other thing is, in this case. I will be very grateful. :D
     
  5. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    The visuals is what needs work here.
    It's a cop out to say it's not.

    You have several color themes that collide with each other.
    It's best shown here with drab dirt/grass, with brown trees, blue dirt and red ground texture for structure (from outland tilesets).
    It doesn't look good at all.
    It'd be a prettier map if you just stuck to standard green grass and trees.
    If you showed it to someone that plays melee they would tell you this.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    well the red under the buildings is a problem yes but the map is totaly gorgeous and no melee players dont tell u this and they dont go much by the looks.
    if its not dungeon,black citatel,feelwood or sometimes outland its fine.

    and i play melee diamond and have contact with many 1800+mmr players
    its almost always wierd layout or creeping why melee players ditch a map
     
  7. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    Different sources then, but that's not what i hear.
    If it's not a green map then it better look damn good.
    Most tilesets in WC3 look really ugly when you spend time in them.
     
  8. Zucth

    Zucth

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    Well, seem like that outland under it is a problem I didn't expect that to happened(Even I did test it, but I didn't notice it at all.), if you talk about normal green. Let say maybe I was boring normal tile set, that's why you won't get anything simple for me, or maybe one day I want something simple. Tbh try on new kind of things always give new experience and new point of view to go on. I know that some people want a standard look melee map, and for real it seem like I love dark color that might be another reason. I don't know though I just want to find something that news to me.
    I don't know how to fixed the problem though, cause if I change it to orange one the theme will be broke apart. Qusetion: If its barren why is there an isles, and if its about sand why is there a grass? Let say that the orange floor is the mistake I didn't expect. Next time I won't miss, I just hope.
    [apologies again for the mistake]
     
  9. Nudl9

    Nudl9

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    There's a lot of things that are hardcoded into tilesets such as watercolor, lighting and ground texture for structures.
    Nothing can be done about it except change tilesets.

    Nothing to apologise for lol, i'm just point out things.
     
  10. Zucth

    Zucth

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    From the start, I was looking for the water combination color that when I make it out look kind of gray and green like a waste water color, that's how I end up this tile set with that map name. Outland floor mistake is something that I never expect at all.
     
  11. Kaer#2460

    Kaer#2460

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    I'm not generally opposed to the visuals even though they require some work. E.g. bright rocks and shrubs seem very unnatural on top of dark red brick tiles and cliffs. Rather stick to the industrial setting for 70-80% of the map with a few purposely placed larger "oasises" like around the tavern, mainbases and goldmines.
    Unbenannt2.png


    But lets focus on the more important things, i.e. the gameplay balance.

    Ramps
    Ramps and cliffs are an attractive tool for mapmakers due to their powerful characteristics regarding pathing and adding flavor the the environment. Though, they are a dangerous addition to any map due to their strategical implications. Because the player on the upper side of the ramp has vision advantage and the player on the lower side has +25% miss chance on range attacks, ramps serve as a fortress for the player on the upper side which is basically impossible to break if you are not up by 15-20 supply or have a massive air army, which is both highly unlikely in high level 1v1. This has two consequences:
    • ramps must be clearly identifiable for the players (basically meaning they have to be used on straight cliffs only and not on diagonal ones)
    • ramps should be used very sparsely and carefully.
    I understand that cliffs are essential to the flavour of your map. But that being said, you need to reduce the amount of ramps if this map aims for competitive balance. Especially the high ground next to the natural expansions is game-breaking.

    Creepspots
    You introduce some interesting new creeps, but overall your creep layout is a little wild.
    • The natural expansion has immolation and four(!!) disables (ensnare, 2x slow, bolt). Players will hate this and immediately veto this map.
    • The number of creepcamps is too small for this relatively large map. That's are rare sight because most maps do too many creeps. +2 orange or +1 orange +1 green would be appropriate.
    • Marketplace top and shop bottom is not acceptable.
    Try thinking about how potential creeproutes would look like with every race and figure out what they would dislike about it.

    Minimap
    Opposed to Nudl, my major concern with your tileset combination isn't the aesthetics, but the fact that it doesn't translate well to the minimap, meaning that it doesn't help the players with orientation. Mappers often don't understand that minimaps are not a funny gimmick but a valuable part of the game that has to be factored in while mapping.
    Here is an example of how the minimaps of Lordaeron Summer maps immediately give the players a natural sense of orientation only because the transition trees into grass into dirt translates very well to the minimap (left side). If the map was covered with grass, the minimap would be quite confusing (right side).
    Unbenannt.png
    Therefore, the main challenge of using non-standard tiles and doodads is to find a combination that translates well to the minimap.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Red Beach (Panjin) - Wikipedia



    Also, consider Warcraft III is a fantasy game.
     
  13. Zucth

    Zucth

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    -Well you did point all good things out, But bright rock is possible though why not? grass out of the brick maybe look weird but I guess that it's possible for the grass to insert between brick.
    -Creep spot, welp about that one it's true and I still think of what should I put down cause not so many option of balance creep for asvenhale, felwood, black citadel with the level as well. I still find a way out of this.
    -I know you try talking about the goldmines next to cliff which is a bit sick spot, but lemme explain this. I think that the spot should be easier to scout or attack cause in my design creep route is go toward the enemy base so I give them a chance or maybe luck to control the nearest orange camp.
    -Tbh if it didn't work well next time i won't do it that's all I can do about it. Let say that I'm not a pro as warcraft gameplay I would normally play with friend when we are free just to express the strain from work, so I don't know much about what pro do but I did some research and still on the way, so many things to learn.
    -Minimap, I have nothing to go against you here cause it is very hard to see what's going on here and there with darkgrass that can't tell much and the red cliff brick maybe I will find a way to do something about it later.

    -Marketplace top and shop bottom is not acceptable.> Wait? then how did the NorthernIsles work then?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  14. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @Zucth in nother its totaly different cuz they are in the middle of the map mirrored and turned wich makes it as close as balance can get with that. On your map they are in the top and bottem next to the natural. So if the top player need an invul/dusk/boots or heal scroll he has a way way harder time to get it. Marktet place is not that impactfull till late late game. If u watched fly vs fortitude (hum v orc)on esl dreamhack last day, this matchup plays hard on invuls and they did fight hard to get them or steal them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
  15. Zucth

    Zucth

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    So you said I should put double GobM then right? better than merc cause it's not balance :peasant-thinking:
     
  16. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    yes u should replace the top market with shop.
     
  17. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @Zucth try to compare the creeps and their abilities on your map with the current Ladder Maps. You rly need to be carefull what kind of creeps u place and you should think rly rly hard before u try to intruduce a new abiliti in 1vs1.

    1tipp. Lizzards and immolation are 100% unbalanced to expand and some races need to be able to
     
  18. Zucth

    Zucth

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    it double or maybe triple when this present as felwood+black citadel+asvenhale tile set, I later realize and understand why no one try on these tile set. seem like many things still in trouble and mostly is trouble for human. cause almost every units in these tile set have the most OP units in the same level if we compare especially felwood and asvenhale. ++50% of lv3 units does give skill and 2/3 is envenom weapons and 80% at lv5 is mostly unbalance. yeah I try to make it balance(by remove other units that have the ability), but seem like the lizard lv5(I try to find some units replace the old golem(boulder>firebolt)) is too much. I hope I can find some balance in this tile set...

    sure... I guess hope I can find something to replace that lv5 lizard thank you for mention me again. I hope I can find the way out...
     
  19. SayuriTenshi

    SayuriTenshi

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    @Zucth no need to limit urself to these tilesets. There are may more creeps that work here. Trolls/Ogre/Bandits/Undeads/Elementals/Turtels/Wolfs/Spiders/wizards/ eaven drenai can work. just check their abilities before