(2)Waste Factory v1.20

[Nudl9]

I like the layout a lot.
There's a lot of high ground areas, but you can almost always choose to fight on an equal footing.
I'm not sure how useful boats are here, but at least they're optional and can be used for safety.
You're using doodads more liberally this time around which is an improvement.

Placing race buildings as neutral buildings is a bit of a wierd thing to do.
I can't think of a good reason not to do it, but i wouldn't do it myself as it's an outlandish thing to do.
Same with using units from races or neutral units, in this case clockwerks.
There's one map using hawk to detect blademasters, but that's the only scenario i feel like it's acceptable since blizzard didn't grant mapmakers neutral units with true sight.

Visually speaking though i think you're trying too many ideas at once.
The outland tileset matched with dark greens doesn't look good.
I think any other tileset like dalaren, cityscape or ruins would look pretty here.
Especially if you just used normal grass tiles.

Creeps are a bit lol.
Again i recommend reading Mafe's guide on the section about creeps.
You're using purge, envenomed weapons and sleep in one camp, that's a nightmare to creep.
All of these should be used sparsely.

-Envenomed weapons creeps should be used if you're thinking that humans have too much of an advantage and you want to give other races some advantage over HU. Since HU rely early on militia to creep. The way creep AI works is that they will attempt to poison every unit. This ability deals 80 damage in total. So HU can take insane damage. (Broodmother)
-Purge works well to nerf Archmage, Crypt Lord and Far Seer because they will purge summons. (The lvl 2 lizard in this case)
-Sleep is like, ensnare but just annoying. It's not bad, but if you can use ensnare over sleep then do it. (Dark High Priest)

 

[Zucth]

I like the layout a lot.
There's a lot of high ground areas, but you can almost always choose to fight on an equal footing.
I'm not sure how useful boats are here, but at least they're optional and can be used for safety.
You're using doodads more liberally this time around which is an improvement.

Placing race buildings as neutral buildings is a bit of a wierd thing to do.
I can't think of a good reason not to do it, but i wouldn't do it myself as it's an outlandish thing to do.
Same with using units from races or neutral units, in this case clockwerks.
There's one map using hawk to detect blademasters, but that's the only scenario i feel like it's acceptable since blizzard didn't grant mapmakers neutral units with true sight.

Visually speaking though i think you're trying too many ideas at once.
The outland tileset matched with dark greens doesn't look good.
I think any other tileset like dalaren, cityscape or ruins would look pretty here.
Especially if you just used normal grass tiles.

Creeps are a bit lol.
Again i recommend reading Mafe's guide on the section about creeps.
You're using purge, envenomed weapons and sleep in one camp, that's a nightmare to creep.
All of these should be used sparsely.

-Envenomed weapons creeps should be used if you're thinking that humans have too much of an advantage and you want to give other races some advantage over HU. Since HU rely early on militia to creep. The way creep AI works is that they will attempt to poison every unit. This ability deals 80 damage in total. So HU can take insane damage. (Broodmother)
-Purge works well to nerf Archmage, Crypt Lord and Far Seer because they will purge summons. (The lvl 2 lizard in this case)
-Sleep is like, ensnare but just annoying. It's not bad, but if you can use ensnare over sleep then do it. (Dark High Priest)

About tile set I think it's about personal preference, I don't know though because for me I see that it fit well not gonna lied xD (Sorry for that once again), and it's not outland, it's black citadel.
"Placing race buildings as neutral buildings" Welp, I don't know but don't it make the map more nature look?
About creep, maybe I did over look it. Thank you for point out I will look forward. (And those small detail about creep using)

 

[SayuriTenshi]

i think visuals are totaly fine work a little on other things

 

[Zucth]

i think visuals are totaly fine work a little on other things

Thx, and if you can say which other thing is, in this case. I will be very grateful.

 

[Nudl9]

i think visuals are totaly fine work a little on other things

The visuals is what needs work here.
It's a cop out to say it's not.

You have several color themes that collide with each other.
It's best shown here with drab dirt/grass, with brown trees, blue dirt and red ground texture for structure (from outland tilesets).
It doesn't look good at all.
It'd be a prettier map if you just stuck to standard green grass and trees.
If you showed it to someone that plays melee they would tell you this.

 

[SayuriTenshi]

well the red under the buildings is a problem yes but the map is totaly gorgeous and no melee players dont tell u this and they dont go much by the looks.
if its not dungeon,black citatel,feelwood or sometimes outland its fine.

and i play melee diamond and have contact with many 1800+mmr players
its almost always wierd layout or creeping why melee players ditch a map

 

[Nudl9]

no melee players dont tell u this and they dont go much by the looks.

Different sources then, but that's not what i hear.
If it's not a green map then it better look damn good.
Most tilesets in WC3 look really ugly when you spend time in them.

 

[Zucth]

The visuals is what needs work here.
It's a cop out to say it's not.

You have several color themes that collide with each other.
It's best shown here with drab dirt/grass, with brown trees, blue dirt and red ground texture for structure (from outland tilesets).
It doesn't look good at all.
It'd be a prettier map if you just stuck to standard green grass and trees.
If you showed it to someone that plays melee they would tell you this.

Well, seem like that outland under it is a problem I didn't expect that to happened(Even I did test it, but I didn't notice it at all.), if you talk about normal green. Let say maybe I was boring normal tile set, that's why you won't get anything simple for me, or maybe one day I want something simple. Tbh try on new kind of things always give new experience and new point of view to go on. I know that some people want a standard look melee map, and for real it seem like I love dark color that might be another reason. I don't know though I just want to find something that news to me.
I don't know how to fixed the problem though, cause if I change it to orange one the theme will be broke apart. Qusetion: If its barren why is there an isles, and if its about sand why is there a grass? Let say that the orange floor is the mistake I didn't expect. Next time I won't miss, I just hope.
[apologies again for the mistake]

 

[Nudl9]

There's a lot of things that are hardcoded into tilesets such as watercolor, lighting and ground texture for structures.
Nothing can be done about it except change tilesets.

Nothing to apologise for lol, i'm just point out things.

 

[Zucth]

There's a lot of things that are hardcoded into tilesets such as watercolor, lighting and ground texture for structures.
Nothing can be done about it except change tilesets.

Nothing to apologise for lol, i'm just point out things.

From the start, I was looking for the water combination color that when I make it out look kind of gray and green like a waste water color, that's how I end up this tile set with that map name. Outland floor mistake is something that I never expect at all.

 

[Kaer#2460]

I'm not generally opposed to the visuals even though they require some work. E.g. bright rocks and shrubs seem very unnatural on top of dark red brick tiles and cliffs. Rather stick to the industrial setting for 70-80% of the map with a few purposely placed larger "oasises" like around the tavern, mainbases and goldmines.

But lets focus on the more important things, i.e. the gameplay balance.

Ramps
Ramps and cliffs are an attractive tool for mapmakers due to their powerful characteristics regarding pathing and adding flavor the the environment. Though, they are a dangerous addition to any map due to their strategical implications. Because the player on the upper side of the ramp has vision advantage and the player on the lower side has +25% miss chance on range attacks, ramps serve as a fortress for the player on the upper side which is basically impossible to break if you are not up by 15-20 supply or have a massive air army, which is both highly unlikely in high level 1v1. This has two consequences:

• ramps must be clearly identifiable for the players (basically meaning they have to be used on straight cliffs only and not on diagonal ones)
  
• ramps should be used very sparsely and carefully.

I understand that cliffs are essential to the flavour of your map. But that being said, you need to reduce the amount of ramps if this map aims for competitive balance. Especially the high ground next to the natural expansions is game-breaking.

Creepspots
You introduce some interesting new creeps, but overall your creep layout is a little wild.

• The natural expansion has immolation and four(!!) disables (ensnare, 2x slow, bolt). Players will hate this and immediately veto this map.
• The number of creepcamps is too small for this relatively large map. That's are rare sight because most maps do too many creeps. +2 orange or +1 orange +1 green would be appropriate.
  
• Marketplace top and shop bottom is not acceptable.

Try thinking about how potential creeproutes would look like with every race and figure out what they would dislike about it.

Minimap
Opposed to Nudl, my major concern with your tileset combination isn't the aesthetics, but the fact that it doesn't translate well to the minimap, meaning that it doesn't help the players with orientation. Mappers often don't understand that minimaps are not a funny gimmick but a valuable part of the game that has to be factored in while mapping.
Here is an example of how the minimaps of Lordaeron Summer maps immediately give the players a natural sense of orientation only because the transition trees into grass into dirt translates very well to the minimap (left side). If the map was covered with grass, the minimap would be quite confusing (right side).

Therefore, the main challenge of using non-standard tiles and doodads is to find a combination that translates well to the minimap.

 

[deepstrasz]

bright rocks and shrubs seem very unnatural on top of dark red brick tiles and cliffs.

Red Beach (Panjin) - Wikipedia

Also, consider Warcraft III is a fantasy game.

 

[Zucth]

I'm not generally opposed to the visuals even though they require some work. E.g. bright rocks and shrubs seem very unnatural on top of dark red brick tiles and cliffs. Rather stick to the industrial setting for 70-80% of the map with a few purposely placed larger "oasises" like around the tavern, mainbases and goldmines.
View attachment 362172


But lets focus on the more important things, i.e. the gameplay balance.

Ramps
Ramps and cliffs are an attractive tool for mapmakers due to their powerful characteristics regarding pathing and adding flavor the the environment. Though, they are a dangerous addition to any map due to their strategical implications. Because the player on the upper side of the ramp has vision advantage and the player on the lower side has +25% miss chance on range attacks, ramps serve as a fortress for the player on the upper side which is basically impossible to break if you are not up by 15-20 supply or have a massive air army, which is both highly unlikely in high level 1v1. This has two consequences:

• ramps must be clearly identifiable for the players (basically meaning they have to be used on straight cliffs only and not on diagonal ones)
  
• ramps should be used very sparsely and carefully.

I understand that cliffs are essential to the flavour of your map. But that being said, you need to reduce the amount of ramps if this map aims for competitive balance. Especially the high ground next to the natural expansions is game-breaking.

Creepspots
You introduce some interesting new creeps, but overall your creep layout is a little wild.

• The natural expansion has immolation and four(!!) disables (ensnare, 2x slow, bolt). Players will hate this and immediately veto this map.
• The number of creepcamps is too small for this relatively large map. That's are rare sight because most maps do too many creeps. +2 orange or +1 orange +1 green would be appropriate.
  
• Marketplace top and shop bottom is not acceptable.

Try thinking about how potential creeproutes would look like with every race and figure out what they would dislike about it.

Minimap
Opposed to Nudl, my major concern with your tileset combination isn't the aesthetics, but the fact that it doesn't translate well to the minimap, meaning that it doesn't help the players with orientation. Mappers often don't understand that minimaps are not a funny gimmick but a valuable part of the game that has to be factored in while mapping.
Here is an example of how the minimaps of Lordaeron Summer maps immediately give the players a natural sense of orientation only because the transition trees into grass into dirt translates very well to the minimap (left side). If the map was covered with grass, the minimap would be quite confusing (right side).
View attachment 362177
Therefore, the main challenge of using non-standard tiles and doodads is to find a combination that translates well to the minimap.

-Well you did point all good things out, But bright rock is possible though why not? grass out of the brick maybe look weird but I guess that it's possible for the grass to insert between brick.
-Creep spot, welp about that one it's true and I still think of what should I put down cause not so many option of balance creep for asvenhale, felwood, black citadel with the level as well. I still find a way out of this.
-I know you try talking about the goldmines next to cliff which is a bit sick spot, but lemme explain this. I think that the spot should be easier to scout or attack cause in my design creep route is go toward the enemy base so I give them a chance or maybe luck to control the nearest orange camp.
-Tbh if it didn't work well next time i won't do it that's all I can do about it. Let say that I'm not a pro as warcraft gameplay I would normally play with friend when we are free just to express the strain from work, so I don't know much about what pro do but I did some research and still on the way, so many things to learn.
-Minimap, I have nothing to go against you here cause it is very hard to see what's going on here and there with darkgrass that can't tell much and the red cliff brick maybe I will find a way to do something about it later.

-Marketplace top and shop bottom is not acceptable.> Wait? then how did the NorthernIsles work then?

 

[SayuriTenshi]

@Zucth in nother its totaly different cuz they are in the middle of the map mirrored and turned wich makes it as close as balance can get with that. On your map they are in the top and bottem next to the natural. So if the top player need an invul/dusk/boots or heal scroll he has a way way harder time to get it. Marktet place is not that impactfull till late late game. If u watched fly vs fortitude (hum v orc)on esl dreamhack last day, this matchup plays hard on invuls and they did fight hard to get them or steal them.

 

[Zucth]

@Zucth in nother its totaly different cuz they are in the middle of the map mirrored and turned wich makes it as close as balance can get with that. On your map they are in the top and bottem next to the natural. So if the top player need an invul/dusk/boots or heal scroll he has a way way harder time to get it. Marktet place is not that impactfull till late late game. If u watched fly vs fortitude (hum v orc)on esl dreamhack last day, this matchup plays hard on invuls and they did fight hard to get them or steal them.

So you said I should put double GobM then right? better than merc cause it's not balance

 

[SayuriTenshi]

yes u should replace the top market with shop.

 

[SayuriTenshi]

@Zucth try to compare the creeps and their abilities on your map with the current Ladder Maps. You rly need to be carefull what kind of creeps u place and you should think rly rly hard before u try to intruduce a new abiliti in 1vs1.

1tipp. Lizzards and immolation are 100% unbalanced to expand and some races need to be able to

 

[Zucth]

@Zucth try to compare the creeps and their abilities on your map with the current Ladder Maps. You rly need to be carefull what kind of creeps u place and you should think rly rly hard before u try to intruduce a new abiliti in 1vs1.

1tipp. Lizzards and immolation are 100% unbalanced to expand and some races need to be able to

it double or maybe triple when this present as felwood+black citadel+asvenhale tile set, I later realize and understand why no one try on these tile set. seem like many things still in trouble and mostly is trouble for human. cause almost every units in these tile set have the most OP units in the same level if we compare especially felwood and asvenhale. ++50% of lv3 units does give skill and 2/3 is envenom weapons and 80% at lv5 is mostly unbalance. yeah I try to make it balance(by remove other units that have the ability), but seem like the lizard lv5(I try to find some units replace the old golem(boulder>firebolt)) is too much. I hope I can find some balance in this tile set...

sure... I guess hope I can find something to replace that lv5 lizard thank you for mention me again. I hope I can find the way out...

 

[SayuriTenshi]

@Zucth no need to limit urself to these tilesets. There are may more creeps that work here. Trolls/Ogre/Bandits/Undeads/Elementals/Turtels/Wolfs/Spiders/wizards/ eaven drenai can work. just check their abilities before

 

[Zucth]

@Zucth no need to limit urself to these tilesets. There are may more creeps that work here. Trolls/Ogre/Bandits/Undeads/Elementals/Turtels/Wolfs/Spiders/wizards/ eaven drenai can work. just check their abilities before

doesn't that make the map unnatural?

 

[SayuriTenshi]

no this could be almost anywhere. Could be in dark summoning islend. Could be one close to kalimdor. Could be in Outland. u can have many reasons why certain creeps are there i mean its an island

 

[mafe]

Just scrolling through quickly (and not having read the previous feedback), I noticed:
1. AoW-creeping seems to be at a disadvantage compared to militia-creeping, due to restriction of buildable space.
2. Lvl 5 satyr has manaburg, this is just so annoying, I dont think anybody enjoys this.
3. Itemdrops seem to make sense. Only the the lvl 3 charged items from the sludge flinger camp near the portals seems almost too strong. I would also have used a few more powerups.
4. Some parts of the map have a lot of attention to detail, but other look somewhat empty. Maybe this is intended though.
5. The expansion layout might be too experimental.
I
I'm afraid the visual design might split opinions. Otherwise this is map is alright.

 

[Zucth]

Just scrolling through quickly (and not having read the previous feedback), I noticed:
1. AoW-creeping seems to be at a disadvantage compared to militia-creeping, due to restriction of buildable space.
2. Lvl 5 satyr has manaburg, this is just so annoying, I dont think anybody enjoys this.
3. Itemdrops seem to make sense. Only the the lvl 3 charged items from the sludge flinger camp near the portals seems almost too strong. I would also have used a few more powerups.
4. Some parts of the map have a lot of attention to detail, but other look somewhat empty. Maybe this is intended though.
5. The expansion layout might be too experimental.
I
I'm afraid the visual design might split opinions. Otherwise this is map is alright.

1 yeah I did see it since creep spot is quite far away. So I give them nelf advantage at lv.9 p2 camp near base. Militia can't do it early game. There was a poison treant guard there (also try to present or using new creep) and nelf can go forward early expansion gm mass archer will be an okay here... That was my design, but in action I'm not sure.

2. I try to present mana burning but seem like these are still a no-no I will change him

3. Thank, I didn't notice that. I was worry more about the early expansion camp.(which also present cripple+slow creep)

4. Yeah. Its half-half I was intend to decorate more but I ran out of idea. Can't figure other decorations yet. I don't wanna use them over an over again... Hope it was not too empty.

5. Both of them, I did design for make use of boat, or else support boat gameplay. And walk route. When it come out is here, there's a lot of mistake that we can see. I admit that.

6. Yeah, I did try four idea here. New tile set, new creep, boat support, and with factory theme. It was my first time so I admit all of them. You are right, I do worry about the theme and how it follow up.

Thank you, so much for remind me more of my mistake or point out what should I look on

 

[WolfFarkas]

I think this is a bit hard for a shop, remove the dragon, consider replace the thunder lizzards with ranged units with no splash damage, and the troll warlord L6 is to powerfull, a L5 unit boss would be better. IMO

to hard for a 1st mine, humans needs a more easy expansion.

creeps too near, small path

about the map reading, it is ideal to have a tile that stands out from the wood and cliff, I used this white bricks, perhaps looks weird but by looking this you can see a road in the minimap, it also helps players to follow the road with no looking the minimap all the time

well try to improve the map if you can, more improves may be more score, good luck.

 

[Zucth]

I think this is a bit hard for a shop, remove the dragon, consider replace the thunder lizzards with ranged units with no splash damage, and the troll warlord L6 is to powerfull, a L5 unit boss would be better. IMO
View attachment 363157

to hard for a 1st mine, humans needs a more easy expansion.

View attachment 363156

creeps too near, small path
View attachment 363158

View attachment 363159
about the map reading, it is ideal to have a tile that stands out from the wood and cliff, I used this white bricks, perhaps looks weird but by looking this you can see a road in the minimap, it also helps players to follow the road with no looking the minimap all the time
View attachment 363160

well try to improve the map if you can, more improves may be more score, good luck.

Well, about the shop I will think about it... One question isn't dark troll warlord are the same as other troll warlord? I remember see him defend shop from some where... that's how he come like this and also. I strongly want it to drop permanent 4 and try not to use other tile set unit too much, that might be the reason.

First Exp mine it not that bad though, I can defeat it using 4 fm 5 militia with paladin. So I'm not sure about that it is too hard. This one design to nerf the orc early take 1 exp mines. But orc didn't have problem with range so I put another per3 camp the opposite way toward enemy first exp

At first, there's no middle yellow creep there. But its coming from other fixed, I don't know where to put them though...

Map leading I agree, but I think that I won't change it to white though, maybe not change the theme color I'm not sure either. the map theme is suppose to be dark and ruins of industrial and other waste so blight would not fit here to say so.

 

[WolfFarkas]

1---Well, about the shop I will think about it... One question isn't dark troll warlord are the same as other troll warlord? I remember see him defend shop from some where... that's how he come like this and also. I strongly want it to drop permanent 4 and try not to use other tile set unit too much, that might be the reason.

2-First Exp mine it not that bad though, I can defeat it using 4 fm 5 militia with paladin. So I'm not sure about that it is too hard. This one design to nerf the orc early take 1 exp mines. But orc didn't have problem with range so I put another per3 camp the opposite way toward enemy first exp

At first, there's no middle yellow creep there. But its coming from other fixed, I don't know where to put them though...

4-Map leading I agree, but I think that I won't change it to white though, maybe not change the theme color I'm not sure either. the map theme is suppose to be dark and ruins of industrial and other waste so blight would not fit here to say so.

1-- harder the shop, more advantage for blademaster buy items with windwalk compared to others heroes.
2--ok, good to know you did test it.
3-- you have 3 greens, 5 orange, but 2 orange are too near each other, convert a green in to orange, a map can work even with 1 green creep
4- it was just an example, maybe there is another tile that may improve the map reading, sometimes you get surprised by just trying, sometimes you discover a new tile combo that helps the map.

 

[Zucth]

1-- harder the shop, more advantage for blademaster buy items with windwalk compared to others heroes.
2--ok, good to know you did test it.
3-- you have 3 greens, 5 orange, but 2 orange are too near each other, convert a green in to orange, a map can work even with 1 green creep
4- it was just an example, maybe there is another tile that may improve the map reading, sometimes you get surprised by just trying, sometimes you discover a new tile combo that helps the map.

1. shop is harder? that's unexpected :x I want to have purge there but don't know any good camp for purge to be there...
2. anyway I did change -2 lv.1 creep and add green instead of the loss part exp. (later know that no one use paladin as first heroes)
3. I don't know where to put it though... maybe swap with shipyard camp but for p3 it is too far ++shipyard in this map design like that you can get in the early game. But maybe I will do it, I didn't sure yet.
4. It's always work/happens in the map that I didn't think it will work like my another 1v1 map I did use felwood+sunken ruins and it work too much good... I mention in case of if you wanna try.

 

[WolfFarkas]

1. shop is harder? that's unexpected :x I want to have purge there but don't know any good camp for purge to be there...
2. anyway I did change -2 lv.1 creep and add green instead of the loss part exp. (later know that no one use paladin as first heroes)
3. I don't know where to put it though... maybe swap with shipyard camp but for p3 it is too far ++shipyard in this map design like that you can get in the early game. But maybe I will do it, I didn't sure yet.
4. It's always work/happens in the map that I didn't think it will work like my another 1v1 map I did use felwood+sunken ruins and it work too much good... I mention in case of if you wanna try.

3) the shipyard could be an orange level 10 or 11 and is like a green

 

[mafe]

Scrolling through this map again:
1. Possibly some of the shallow water near the expansion should be removed, in case players want to make more than just a town hall (or equivalent) at the expansion.
2. I would add a lvl 1 (or 2) powerup to most of the orange/red camps that dont have one yet.

 

[mafe]

Approved based on the reviews of the recent melee mapping contest: Night Stream