(2)Flood Waves

[The Panda]

~Rsvd

 

[Wardota2 Gamer]

I just tested this and it was pretty cool! Cool terrain no bugs found in the map and the ramp's are perfect!

Rated 4/5 I vote for Approval!

 

[WolfFarkas]

Hello there

I am not fan of maps with no expansion goldmines,

if this map was mine and you ask my opinion I would redisign the corners to have 1 goldmine for each player, put the market where the goblin lab is and put the goblin lab else where. There is a many (6) of orange creeps defending nothing that can defend something
I am all to sacrifice terrain and redisign for the basic neutrals buildings.

Sugestion:

If you want to have no expansion goldmines
Increase the amount of gold, I sugest 12500x2 = 25000 at least, because if not, the game play will be very limited. Units such as taurens and quimera will be hard to use.

The gnoll Warden in the Gnoll orange creep camp near the green creep of two murlocks loots a random item level 3: In therory there is a chance 1/19 to loot the orc townhall. So I don´t sugest it in that way.

Tested with the red player:
the murlc green creep has agro.
The murlock camp orange creep that defends nothing has also agro (a lot, they walk right to the orange murlocks, the green camp is less hard to fix)
I really sugest you to beta test the militia walk an fix that.

I am rating 3/5 as it is, if you do changes I will re-consider my rate ( a 4/5 with no expansions and a 5/5 with expansions)

see ya

 

[The Panda]

Hello there

I am not fan of maps with no expansion goldmines,

if this map was mine and you ask my opinion I would redisign the corners to have 1 goldmine fo each player, put the market where the goblin lab is and put the goblin lab else where. There is a many (6) of orange creeps defending nothing that can defend something
I am all to sacrifice terrain and redisign for the basic neutrals buildings.

Sugestion:

If you want to have no expansion goldmines
Increase the amount of gold, I sugest 12500x2 = 25000 at least, because if not, the game play will be very limited. Units such as taurens and quimera will be hard to use.

The gnoll Warden in the Gnoll orange creep camp near the green creep of two murlocks loots a random item level 3: In therory there is a chance 1/19 to loot the orc townhall. So I don´t sugest it in that way.

Tested with the red player:
the murlc green creep has agro.
The murlock camp orange creep that defends nothing has also agro (a lot, they walk right to the orange murlocks, the green camp is less hard to fix)
I really sugest you to beta test the militia walk an fix that.

I am rating 3/5 as it is, if you do changes I will re-consider my rate ( a 4/5 with no expansions and a 5/5 with expansions)

see ya

I did no expansions because its a small mao and its a 1v1 and it shouldnt last but 10-20 minutes tops with how small the map is so i didnt think they would be needed honestly. But i will change what i can.

 

[deepstrasz]

I did no expansions because its a small mao and its a 1v1 and it shouldnt last but 10-20 minutes tops with how small the map is so i didnt think they would be needed honestly. But i will change what i can.

I agree that not all 1v1 maps should have expansions. This leaves you with more creativity to replace those expansions with something else, maybe a red spot for higher xp, I don't know. But @Ragnaros17 found a solution, adding more gold to the starting mines just in case the match lasts longer.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I did no expansions because its a small mao and its a 1v1 and it shouldnt last but 10-20 minutes tops with how small the map is so i didnt think they would be needed honestly. But i will change what i can.

Well as the same way you always put a tavern and two markets, I think there always should be 1 expansion per player at least.
The competitive melee play theory says that (@mafe quote) "humans can´t win undead unless they have an easy expanding". There should be a goldmine near to A and far to B and goldmine near to B and far to A.

Maybe I was to sharp with you since I always considered you one of the most important melee mapers that desings for competitive melee play in these times. If you have a competitive melee audience I sugest you to keep it.

About my rate I said 4/5 with no expasions and with the agro fix, all my maps are 4/5 in the best cases.
Also I always try to give fair rate.


You may forget about what I said about the goldmine expansions but fix the agro.


see ya

 

[The Panda]

I agree that not all 1v1 maps should have expansions. This leaves you with more creativity to replace those expansions with something else, maybe a red spot for higher xp, I don't know. But @Ragnaros17 found a solution, adding more gold to the starting mines just in case the match lasts longer.

Well as the same way you always put a tavern and two markets, I think there always should be 1 expansion per player at least.
The competitive melee play theory says that (mafe quote) "humans can´t win undead unless they have an easy expanding". There should be a goldmine near to A and far to B and goldmine near to B and far to A.

Maybe I was to sharp with you since I always considered you one of the most important melee mapers that desings for competitive melee play in these times. If you have a competitive melee audience I sugest you to keep it.

About my rate I said 4/5 with no expasions and with the agro fix, all my maps are 4/5 in the best cases.
Also I always try to give fair rate.


You may forget about what I said about the goldmine expansions but fix the agro.


see ya

I gotcha i will fix once i get home, thank you both. I like to do different things in each map so the next one ill put some ideas of yours into it.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I gotcha i will fix once i get home, thank you both. I like to do different things in each map so the next one ill put some ideas of yours into it.

If you use some of my doodad/terraining ideas , it will be an honor to me. I develop them as proof that there still lot of things to be developed.

 

[The Panda]

If you use some of my doodad/terraining ideas , it will be an honor to me. I develop them as proof that there still lot of things to be developed.

Ill take a look I mainly need to fix some cliffs and things with it.

 

[The Panda]

Updated,

- 25000 in gold mine
- Gnoll warden, level 2 item instead
- Moved green camp somewhere else on map

 

[WolfFarkas]

Updated,

- 25000 in gold mine
- Gnoll warden, level 2 item instead
- Moved green camp somewhere else on map

the good thing is that even going to the market, the green creep is safe.

maybe I wasn´t clear in my other post, the creep that has bad agro, because they go right to the creep is the orange murlock, see image

image

 

[mafe]

Nice to see another melee map. As always, I'm mostly interested how the map looks from the point of competitive wc3 gameplay. However, I dont think a melee map necessarily needs to have this as a goal.

From a competitive perspective, as @Ragnaros17 has quoted me above, there is this serious issue with the undead-human matchup: Human players will try to expand early, as assuming equally skilled players who know the basic strategies, the undead should win 80+% of games in a 1base vs 1base situation. Adding gold to the mines doesnt really change this: The problem here (without going into too much details) is that undead have an incredibly strong 50 supply timing attack shortly after they get t3 with destroyers and orbs. Humans cannot counter this, as even if they are teching equally fast, they cannot counter destroyers efficiently with t1/t2 units, and they cannot build t3 units as fast as the undead, who can essentially build statues at t2 which turn into destroyers instantly. Destroyers even make and archmage useless and water elementals now make the ud even stronger. Note that orc/nightelves can at least have good mapcontrol in the t2 stage with raiders/dryads and use this to an advantage, and whereas humans would have to make sorcs to get get mapcontrol at t2, and well, they are again food for destroyers later on, unlike the raiders/dryads.

Other than that, the following aspects would also beunsual for competitive balance:
- 5-3-3 ogres dropping a lvl 3 permanent item: There are a lot of 5-3-3 spot in several variations on many maps, and the almost always drop a a lvl2 (permanent) item and sometimes also a lvl 1 tome.
-No AoW creeping spots near the bases.
-The 3-3-3-3-3 gnolls drop an item of unspecified class.
-The 3-3-2-2 murlocs seem to be very likely to attack units that walk past them. It is particularly annoying as the have ensnare.
-The layout of the goldmines would make it very hard to protect acolytes vs air harass.

 

[The Panda]

the good thing is that even going to the market, the green creep is safe.

maybe I wasn´t clear in my other post, the creep that has bad agro, because they go right to the creep is the orange murlock, see image

image

View attachment 291973

Will fix this soon.

 

[The Panda]

Nice to see another melee map. As always, I'm mostly interested how the map looks from the point of competitive wc3 gameplay. However, I dont think a melee map necessarily needs to have this as a goal.

From a competitive perspective, as @Ragnaros17 has quoted me above, there is this serious issue with the undead-human matchup: Human players will try to expand early, as assuming equally skilled players who know the basic strategies, the undead should win 80+% of games in a 1base vs 1base situation. Adding gold to the mines doesnt really change this: The problem here (without going into too much details) is that undead have an incredibly strong 50 supply timing attack shortly after they get t3 with destroyers and orbs. Humans cannot counter this, as even if they are teching equally fast, they cannot counter destroyers efficiently with t1/t2 units, and they cannot build t3 units as fast as the undead, who can essentially build statues at t2 which turn into destroyers instantly. Destroyers even make and archmage useless and water elementals now make the ud even stronger. Note that orc/nightelves can at least have good mapcontrol in the t2 stage with raiders/dryads and use this to an advantage, and whereas humans would have to make sorcs to get get mapcontrol at t2, and well, they are again food for destroyers later on, unlike the raiders/dryads.

Other than that, the following aspects would also beunsual for competitive balance:
- 5-3-3 ogres dropping a lvl 3 permanent item: There are a lot of 5-3-3 spot in several variations on many maps, and the almost always drop a a lvl2 (permanent) item and sometimes also a lvl 1 tome.
-No AoW creeping spots near the bases.
-The 3-3-3-3-3 gnolls drop an item of unspecified class.
-The 3-3-2-2 murlocs seem to be very likely to attack units that walk past them. It is particularly annoying as the have ensnare.
-The layout of the goldmines would make it very hard to protect acolytes vs air harass.

I understand your points as i can only do so much with maps, every maps not gonna be perfect. Each map has a different feel and different strategy to it. So yeah ill figure things out for future maps.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I understand your points as i can only do so much with maps, every maps not gonna be perfect. Each map has a different feel and different strategy to it. So yeah ill figure things out for future maps.

"I am not fan of maps with no expansion goldmines,"

I wanted to apologize and retire this comment, I see is very destructive and no usefull for a review.

 

[The Panda]

the good thing is that even going to the market, the green creep is safe.

maybe I wasn´t clear in my other post, the creep that has bad agro, because they go right to the creep is the orange murlock, see image

image

View attachment 291973

Updated.

 

[WolfFarkas]

Updated.

I tested it and there is no agro, but they pass near (I was afraid) but the thing is fixed

rate changed to 4/5, the terraining is very good in this map

 

[The Panda]

I tested it and there is no agro, but they pass near (I was afraid) but the thing is fixed

rate changed to 4/5, the terraining is very good in this map

Thanks sir, working on plenty more.. just takes time to make these types of maps.

 

[deepstrasz]

Approved based on @mafe's and @Ragnaros17's reviews.