Wc III TFT Heroes Arena

[Moderator]

Next Review: [2016-06-01]

Rufus Moderation Note Notes: In its current state, it is a pretty simple creation. I'm not sure what to say as it is clear that you wanted to revive standard melee heroes into an arena. But the heroes are simply not balanced enough. They arte not made for arena play, and they become weak when they don't have a specific setting in front of them. Some of them are much better at destroying building and sieging, which is pretty useless in this map. The Blademaster (didn't play him though) will probably be much stronger than all other heroes as he is made for attacking a single target, and can additionally slip away without a problem. I saw that you started to do a few balance changes to for example divine shield, but there is a really long way to go if you want to balance all those heroes. You will have to change and trigger some abilities significantly. The gameplay doesn't feel very special because of this. It feels to random, and is based much more on luck of the draw than skill, although those games can also be fun sometimes late at night. I'm not sure the randomization of heroes work properly. I got the keeper and death knight very often, while I never got some other heroes. Blademaster were never played by either me or the computer player for example. The terrain could also need an upgrade. While not being horribly executed, and also containing some tactical highgrounds andvision blockers, it all feel pretty rushed. The stairs were hovering at some location for example, and a general improvement with additions to the terrain wouldn't hurt either. It can be almost be approved in its current state as it is close to fully functional. However, the randomization needs a second look at. Map status set to awaiting update in the meantime.

 

[deepstrasz]

Quick Update:

Rufus found out that the map wasn't working so I reuploaded a proper version. Thanks.

 

[Aether]

Aether's Review [TD] WcIIITFTHeroesArena By deepstrasz WcIIITFTHeroesArena By deepstrasz Gameplay: The map itself makes the heroes useful and balance. Like for instance, the Death Knight's Animate Dead, which is there are corpse somewhere in the map. The Keeper of the Grove is one of the heroes who needs something to be useful, like the trees, which is needed for his abilities Forces of Nature. The heroes, was just the default warcraft 3 heroes, but you revived the standard and old heroes of warcraft 3, by creating a map with great game modes and many features. On other the hand, there's a lot of issues, that you need to take a look about the abilities. For example, the Paladin's Divine Shield, it has a long duration. which it results the Paladin hard to kill. You should balance it. Another thing is the items, which is also default, but some items are useful, like the Moonstone, which is only good for night elf heroes, such as the Warden. Another one is the Wand of Negation, which is good in making a huge damage to the summoned units. It will be great, if you add more items will make the game more fun and enjoyable.​ Aesthetics: The description is looking good. Nothing much to say about it, it has a explanation and details regarding the map. By the way, the name of the map was weird, it won't fit to the map, you should change it. For example, from WcIIITFTHeroesArena to Wc3 Heroes Arena. The terrain is well made, the placement of doodads, the variation of tiles. But, I can barely see a area that can good for hiding.​ Verdict: Woah! There are so many extremely nice features. I like the idea of your map, reviving the standard heroes of warcraft 3 was interesting. I will rate it 3/5, and voting for awaiting update. But, if you balance the hero's abilities, I will definately voting for approval.​

 

[deepstrasz]

Response to Aether:

-The Keeper of the Grove is one of the heroes who needs something to be useful, like the trees, which is needed for his abilities Forces of Nature.
There are trees on the map. Most of them regrow after a round ends and another begins.

-For example, the Paladin's Divine Shield, it has a long duration. which it results the Paladin hard to kill. You should balance it.
Yeah, I wanted to keep as much of the original Wc stuff as possible but I guess I can tweak some spells.

-Another thing is the items, which is also default, but some items are useful, like the Moonstone, which is only good for night elf heroes, such as the Warden. Another one is the Wand of Negation, which is good in making a huge damage to the summoned units. It will be great, if you add more items will make the game more fun and enjoyable.
Items are usually supposed to be used by the Alchemist after using his Transmute ability. The acquired gold and bought items only last one round. I think there are quite enough items that won't ruin balance but I'm open for suggestions.

-By the way, the name of the map was weird, it won't fit to the map, you should change it. For example, from WcIIITFTHeroesArena to Wc3 Heroes Arena.
What do you mean by that? You don't think it fits or does the name create problems for the playability of the map? Well the difference in what name you've suggested is that there is no TFT/The Frozen Throne. The current name specifies that the map is about: Warcraft III, The Frozen Throne, (its) heroes and the style of the game (arena).

-The terrain is well made, the placement of doodads, the variation of tiles. But, I can barely see a area that can good for hiding.
Besides that there should be space for 12 heroes at a time fighting (some of them are ranged and need space to manoeuvre), there are trees and "cliffs" that take away the visibility of units (you wouldn't want heroes to regenerate while others search for or can't reach them).

Thank you for your time!

 

[Aether]

What do you mean by that? You don't think it fits or does the name create problems for the playability of the map? Well the difference in what name you've suggested is that there is no TFT/The Frozen Throne. The current name specifies that the map is about: Warcraft III, The Frozen Throne, (its) heroes and the style of the game (arena).

What I meant was try adding some space to the name. For example, like this "WcIII TFT Heroes Arena".

 

[Heaven Editor]

This map is simple and quite fun even for a single player. I pawn all heroes no matter what. hehe.

 

[deepstrasz]

Update:

Renamed the map using spaces at Aether's suggestion

Human:
-decreased Divine Shield's duration from 45 to 15 seconds at Aether's suggestion
-increased Holy Light's mana cost from 65 to 75
-increased Avatar's mana cost from 150 to 175
-increased Phoenix's mana cost from 175 to 225
-increased Summon Water Elemental's mana cost from 125 to 150

Orc:
-increased Feral Spirit's mana cost from 75 to 85
-decreased Endurance Aura's movement speed bonus from 30% to 15%

Undead:
-increased Inferno's mana cost from 175 to 225
-increased Locust Swarm's mana cost from 150 to 175
-decreaased the movement speed bonus of Unholy Aura from 30% to 15%

Night Elf:
-increased the mana cost of Metamorphosis from 150 to 175
-increased Vengeance's mana cost from 150 to 175

Neutral:
-increased Doom's mana cost from 150 to 175
-increased Storm, Earth And Fire's mana cost from 150 to 175
-increased Summon Hawk's mana cost from 50 to 65

Replaced Dust of Appearance with Goblin Land Mines in the shop

 

[Aether]

Great update, the heroes are balance, and the name looks much more better.

 

[Rufus]

Next Review: [2016-06-01]

Rufus Moderation Note Notes: In its current state, it is a pretty simple creation. I'm not sure what to say as it is clear that you wanted to revive standard melee heroes into an arena. But the heroes are simply not balanced enough. They arte not made for arena play, and they become weak when they don't have a specific setting in front of them. Some of them are much better at destroying building and sieging, which is pretty useless in this map. The Blademaster (didn't play him though) will probably be much stronger than all other heroes as he is made for attacking a single target, and can additionally slip away without a problem. I saw that you started to do a few balance changes to for example divine shield, but there is a really long way to go if you want to balance all those heroes. You will have to change and trigger some abilities significantly. The gameplay doesn't feel very special because of this. It feels to random, and is based much more on luck of the draw than skill, although those games can also be fun sometimes late at night. I'm not sure the randomization of heroes work properly. I got the keeper and death knight very often, while I never got some other heroes. Blademaster were never played by either me or the computer player for example. The terrain could also need an upgrade. While not being horribly executed, and also containing some tactical highgrounds andvision blockers, it all feel pretty rushed. The stairs were hovering at some location for example, and a general improvement with additions to the terrain wouldn't hurt either. It can be almost be approved in its current state as it is close to fully functional. However, the randomization needs a second look at. Map status set to awaiting update in the meantime.

 

[deepstrasz]

@Rufus:

The map started as a hero test. Afterwards I've decided to add those modes to practice triggering.

Balancing the heroes is not easy. Apart from changing the Warcraft III base, user feedback is required to actually have some statistical evidence. I'll however edit the Blademaster's abilities, especially Wind Walk.

For the terrain, I could fix the visual glitches. However, filling the space won't be a good idea since some heroes need space to manoeuver.

I'll see what's up with the random spawns. It might have just been bad luck or something, I don't know. How many rounds did you play? There are 24 heroes, each basically having the same percent of being randomly chosen.

 

[Rufus]

I would say 15:ish rounds.
The world editors standard random picking system aren't the greatest, if that is what you are using?
I suggest a trigger that updates a variable (integear numbers 1-24) every 0.1 seconds, and gives the hero nuber to the player.

 

[deepstrasz]

Update:

Rufus gave advice for the Blademaster to be edited.

Human:
-increased mana cost of Avatar from 175 to 200
-decreased the damage of Thunder Clap to 150 from 160
-reduced Storm Bolt's damage from 350 to 300
-decreased mana regeneration rate of Brilliance Aura from 2.25 to 2
-increased Mass Teleport's mana requirement from 100 to 200
-increased Divine Shield's mana cost from 25 to 50
-increased the armour bonus of Devotion Aura from 4.5 to 5
-increased Phoenix's mana cost from 225 to 300
-increased Banish's duration for units to 20 seconds from 18, decreased it for heroes to 5 seconds from 6; also increased mana cost from 50 to 75
-decreased Flame Strike's damage from 220 to 200 and cast time from 1.33 to 1; decreased mana cost from 135 to 130
-increased the mana cost of Siphon Mana to 50 from 10 and reduced duration to 5 seconds from 6

Orc:
-reduced the chance of Critical Strike to 10 from 15%
-decreased the duration of Mirror Image to 30 seconds from 60
-reduced Wind Walk's duration to 30 seconds from 50
-increased Chain Lightning's damage from 180 to 200 and increased mana cost from 120 to 150
-increased the slow factor of Earthquake to 90% from 75%; it's mana cost has been increased to 200 from 150
-Feral Spirit now takes 100 mana instead of 85
-War Stomp requires 100 mana in place of 90
-decreased Reincarnation's delay from 7 to 5 seconds
-increased the mana cost of Shockwave to 125 from 100
-Healing Wave now requires 100 mana not 90
-decreased the duration of Hex for heroes from 6 to 5 seconds and for units from 45 to 40 seconds; also increased mana cost from 70 to 75
-increased Serpent Ward's mana requirement from 30 to 50

Undead:
-increased the mana cost of Animate Dead from 175 to 200
-decreased the bonus armour of Frost Armour from 7 to 6, duration from 45 to 30 seconds and changed mana cost from 40 to 50
-Frost Nova takes 150 mana instead of 125
-Carrion Swarm requires 125 mana and not 110
-changed the mana cost of Inferno from 225 to 400
-decreased the duration of Sleep for heroes from 15 to 10 seconds and for units from 60 to 30 seconds; also increased the mana cost from 50 to 60
-Carrion Beetle now requires 50 mana instead of 30
-Impale deals 100 damage and not 110 as before
-increased the mana cost of Locust Swarm to 200 from 175; also reduced the max of swarm units per target to 6 from 7
-decreased the defense bonus of Spiked Carapace to 6 from 7 but increased returned damage rate to 40% from 35

Night Elf:
-decreased Entangling Root's duration for heroes to 4 from 5 seconds and for units from 36 to 20 but increased the damage to 30 from 25
-increased mana cost of Force of Nature to 150 from 125
-decreased the return damage factor of Thorns Aura from 30% to 20%
-increased the mana cost of Tranquility to 200 from 125
-Searing Arrows now require 10 mana instead of 8
-Starfall takes 250 mana instead of 200
-changed the mana cost of Scout to 60 from 50 but now the Owl has a 10 damage magic damage attack type with 500 range; reduced its duration from 120 to 50 seconds
-decreased the rate of Evasion from 30% to 20%
-changed the mana drainage per second of Immolation to 8 from 7 seconds and increased mana cost to 30 from 25
-increased the cost of Mana Burn to 75 from 50
-Metamorphosis requires 250 mana instead of 175
-Blink's cooldown has been changed to 10 seconds from 1 and mana cost to 30 from 10
-Fan of Knives deals 180 damage instead of 190
-increased Shadow Strike's damage/second to 50 form 45 but decreased initial damage to 200 from 225 and duration to 10 seconds form 15
-Vengeance takes 225 mana instead of 175

Neutral:
-Chemical Rage's cost has been changed to 50 from 25
-increased the healing amount of Healing Spray from 70 to 80 but also increased mana cost from 75 to 100
-reduced the cooldown of Transmute to 40 from 45 seconds
-increased mana cost of Forked Lightning to 125 from 110
-reduced the slow rate of Frost Arrows from 70% to 50% for heroes but increased the cost to 20 from 10 mana
-Mana Shield takes 50 mana instead of 25
-Tornado now deals 20 damage per second to units
-increased mana cost of Cluster Rockets to 75 from 70
-Demolish also deals 50% more damage to units and 25% to heroes
-increased the Pocket Factory's mana cost from 125 to 150
-Robo-Goblin requires 100 mana from 25
-Cluster of Rockets now needs 100 mana instead of 75
-increased Summon Bear's mana requirement to 150 from 125
-Summon Hawk takes 75 mana not 65
-decreased Life Drain's hit points factor to 50 from 55
-increased Silence's cost to 100 from 75 and reduced duration for heroes to 10 from 12 seconds and for units to 20 from 24 seconds
-Soul Burn's mana cost has been increased to 100 from 85 and its duration to 10 seconds from 8
-Incinerate now takes 8 mana instead of 6
-increased the mana cost of Breath of Fire to 75 from 70
-decreased the chance of critical strike of Drunken Brawler to 5% from 10% and its evasion to 10% from 21%
-Drunken Haze takes 75 mana instead of 70
-Storm, Earth and Fire wants 200 mana and not 175
-the mana cost of Doom has been increased to 200 from 175
-Howl of Terror requires 100 mana instead of 75
-Rain of Fire's mana cost has been reduced to 75 from 85

Terrain:
-edited the ground under and surrounding the stairs (Rufus so suggested)

Triggers:
-edited the random hero spawning (by DarcRanjer) and suggested by Rufus

 

[Kino]

A tough one.
> In theory, could you develop this map to point where it is good and playable? well yes.
> How long would that take and how much effort would that involve? probably lots.
> Is it worth leaving this in the submission que til that day happens? probably not.

I don't need to say that at this point, the mention of "PVP arena that uses default heroes" is almost played for laughs.
Thing is, this is all the map is.

Im going to move this to substandard on account that making this approve worthy might as well involve recreating it.

 

[deepstrasz]

> In theory, could you develop this map to point where it is good and playable? well yes.

Well, I'd rather you didn't write riddles. Be explicit. What do you mean playable? You can run it through the game. There are few to no bugs and so on...

> How long would that take and how much effort would that involve? probably lots.

Write what you are suggesting. You're not helping anyone writing that kind of stuff. I want to see what you mean not guess it.

I don't need to say that at this point, the mention of "PVP arena that uses default heroes" is almost played for laughs.

What's the problem/wrong with having some laughs (=fun) playing an arena map with the default heroes? I really don't get you...

 

[Kino]

Well, I'd rather you didn't write riddles. Be explicit. What do you mean playable? You can run it through the game. There are few to no bugs and so on...

There are no riddles.
Your maps is the bare minimum something needs to be called an area. In the sense that there is a space in which units can fight and there is a score.

Write what you are suggesting. Your not helping anyone writing that kind of stuff. I want to see what you mean not guess it.

Then read my post again, there's nothing to guess.
Thing is, it is completely unfair to expect us to re-moderate your map every time you make an update that tweaks a few numbers, while the main reason for your maps lack of quality (that you have unthinkingly thrown default heroes into a PvP arena remains unaddressed).

Which brings me back to my original post, which you seem to completely ignore.
Could you eventually develop this to an approvable quality? yes
At the rate and scope of your updates, will that take a long time? yes
Is it fair to the moderation team to retest your map every time you make a minor number change? no
Is it fair to people who make quality maps to have their work buried in the mod que because of low quality, incessantly updated maps like this? no

What's the problem/wrong with having some laughs (=fun) playing an arena map with the default heroes? I really don't get you...

I am saying that this map is literally the thing map-makers have joked about for years when they refer to "poorly made hero arena". It is not the first time someone threw default heroes into a square and called it an arena, it has been done so many times that the said joke exists.

 

[deepstrasz]

Thing is, it is completely unfair to expect us to re-moderate your map every time you make an update that tweaks a few numbers, while the main reason for your maps lack of quality (that you have unthinkingly thrown default heroes into a PvP arena remains unaddressed).

Sorry but "us" is you, here. The previous Map Reviewer said the map was almost ready to be approved if a certain annoyance was to be fixed first (see this quote). I do not expect any moderator/map reviewer to check for all the balance updates I put from time to time. I don't think anyone actually does that for any map.

Then read my post again, there's nothing to guess.

And stop acting like a smart aleck. I asked you to clarify something. It's your duty to do so. You're a Map Reviewer not a normal Hive user. You've got privileges, responsibility.

Is it fair to people who make quality maps to have their work buried in the mod que because of low quality, incessantly updated maps like this? no

This map is not low quality but mediocre of course. It's exactly what you would expect from it. It's not fully original but you don't seem to care about the voting system I've created for it.

I'm not going to create heroes with custom abilities, change the map's shape/terrain, make heroes reach the last level gradually either by killing creeps or the other enemy heroes. That is not the idea of the map. As much as it started as a "joke" as you've written (actually as a test map if you cared to read its history).
You haven't even at least given some suggestions. I understand that pointing out bugs does not require advice for fixing them but when you're writing something like:

Could you eventually develop this to an approvable quality?

At the rate and scope of your updates, will that take a long time?

I'd expect at least some words of what your vision on those matters would be.

 

[Kino]

This map is not low quality but mediocre of course. It's exactly what you would expect from it. It's not fully original but you don't seem to care about the voting system I've created for it.

Hence the reason why it is in substandard/too simple.
Read the name of the section again, it doesn't say "rejected", it says "substandard/too simple".

I'm not going to create heroes with custom abilities, change the map's shape/terrain, make heroes reach the last level gradually either by killing creeps or the other enemy heroes. That is not the idea of the map. As much as it started as a "joke" as you've written (actually as a test map if you cared to read its history).
You haven't even at least given some suggestions. I understand that pointing out bugs does not require advice for fixing them but when you're writing something like:

Your have a right as creator to make whatever map you want.
However, I am expected to enforce some level of quality control.
You want to make a lousy map? go ahead.
As I said above, that's this section is for.

And stop acting like a smart aleck. I asked you to clarify something. It's your duty to do so. You're a Map Reviewer not a normal Hive user. You've got privileges, responsibility.

I'd expect at least some words of what your vision on those matters would be.

There is no "acting", there is no "smart alec".
I can continue to repeat my original post over and over again; but its pointless, as you refuse to acknowledge anything Iv'e said.

Ill say it one more time.
> You have the bare minimum map required to be called an arena; its a square and some win triggers.
> Default heroes are not built for head on PvP combat, there is a vast difference between the skill-sets of characters like the Demon-hunter/Blademaster vs Keeper of the Grove in terms of how well they can actually fight other heroes head-on.

In the end, this is the several-hundreth time some threw default heroes into a square and called it an arena.
All other times, such maps have been instantly rejected, count yourself lucky that, A) we no longer have rejection bin, B) You got a mod team response.

 

[deepstrasz]

its a square

Are you serious? If it was a circle or some other geometrical shape would it have made that much of a difference?

some win triggers.

You can't really open it, can you? I'd not write that sort of stuff without knowing. I'll just give you a hint about your "win triggers":
-four gameplay modes (free for all with pick hero option; teams random, free for all random & teams with pick hero option; of course there's also a random mode)
-voting system (call vote: 50%+1 to choose a game mode or kick a player)
-rejuvenation of trees and neutral units (designed for creating corpses and as a target for Charm, Doom etc.) per round
-creation of Acolytes for the Death Knight and Lich once in some seconds-minutes
-an item shop for the Goblin Alchemist if the controlling player decides to use Transmute
-multiboard with joggling score depending on teams or free for all

> Default heroes are not built for head on PvP combat, there is a vast difference between the skill-sets of characters like the Demon-hunter/Blademaster vs Keeper of the Grove in terms of how well they can actually fight other heroes head-on.

I tried balancing the heroes but I need feedback for that because this sort of thing is usually sorted out with statistics. At first I wanted to leave the heroes as they were but someone suggested I should balance them so I started doing that. You can see the changelog.

ead the name of the section again, it doesn't say "rejected"

You're putting words into my posts. I didn't say anything about rejection. The actual reason I kept defending this map is because your review is shallow. You still failed to suggest anything or give proper advice. You're just fixed on the idea of a "square map with heroes thrown in it". One last try to actually write what you think this map needs, but be specific. Don't write stuff like "it shouldn't be a square" but like "the map could use some bridges, or have less vertical/horizontal borders" and explain why.

In the end, this is the several-hundreth time some threw default heroes into a square and called it an arena.

I want you to show me that hundred of similar maps that has any of the triggers I've put into this one.

Ill say it one more time.

there is no "smart alec".

Isn't there? You're trying to force those sentences on me as if I didn't understand your disliking of the map in the first place.

I can continue to repeat my original post over and over again; but its pointless, as you refuse to acknowledge anything Iv'e said.

Yeah, you do that. See how that goes for other reviews. It seems to be the only thing you can/want to write.

 

[Kino]

Isn't there? You're trying to force those sentences on me as if I didn't understand your disliking of the map in the first place.

You haven't, you still don't and you probably never will.
At this point, explaining anything to you is pointless.
You are stuck with the idea that the review is shallow and I somehow hate your map.

So far, your responses have not addressed the 3 points I gave for moving this to substandard.
1) Default heroes are poorly suited to head on PvP combat, not just in numbers but in concept.
Please explain how the Archmage is useful is such a format, explain how any long duration channeling ult is worth a damn in a format without large armies.
So far all the fixes are bandaids, that is you have thrown in non-hero targets so that abilities like Doom or Death Pact work. It doesn't make them useful or balanced, but hey at least they actually function.

2) Everything from terrain to feature is set is at the barest minimum a map needs to be called a hero area. That is, it has space to fight, it has mode select, it has a win condition. Unfortunately, this also describes every working map that has ever been made.

3) Your map works but is also the barest minimum a map needs to be called a hero arena.
You have the right to keep your map as simple as you want, you have the right to leave the skillsets of the heroes unedited.
There is a space on this site for maps of such quality, and I have moved it there.

Until you explain why these 3 points are wrong, there is no point talking to you.
All else is personal attacks.

The good news is that Ill be speaking to admin about quality control shortly.
If we decide on a new definition of "approval" you might get moved back to pending.
In the mean time, if you want to argue your case any further, PM me.

 

[deepstrasz]

You haven't, you still don't and you probably never will.

Of course I won't when you're not being explicit. See, the previous Map Reviewer gave advice unlike you. I'll give some examples:

But the heroes are simply not balanced enough.

I'm not sure the randomization of heroes work properly. I got the keeper and death knight very often, while I never got some other heroes. Blademaster were never played by either me or the computer player for example.

The terrain could also need an upgrade. While not being horribly executed, and also containing some tactical highgrounds andvision blockers, it all feel pretty rushed. The stairs were hovering at some location for example, and a general improvement with additions to the terrain wouldn't hurt either.

You are stuck with the idea that the review is shallow and I somehow hate your map.

Don't you use reverse psychology on me!

Please explain how the Archmage is useful is such a format

The Archmage can summon a lot of elementals and run about. He is a ranged hero.

explain how any long duration channeling ult is worth a damn in a format without large armies.

Ah, so you can write something properly. Yes, some heroes are just not for 1v1. It's the game's design, not mine. I doubt many heroes even in MOBAs/AoSs are fully 1v1 calibrated. I admit that the Lich for instance could have a hard time using his ultimate but let's not forget that a strategy is not necessarily based on using all the spells. Frost Nova+Frost Armour and Dark Sacrifice (there's an Acolyte spawning near the Lich from time to time) may be quite what the Lich would need.

It doesn't make them useful

They are useful. They can be used... Balanced? Well, that would probably need work and of course for that there also needs to be feedback.

Your map works but is also the barest minimum a map needs to be called a hero arena.

This is not wrong. It just doesn't help the rating of the map that much. And bare is only because of the heroes. I'm sure that is the biggest "problem" here. The terrain isn't much of a big deal. It's enough big already. Imagine a 1v1 on a bigger map. Mana would regenerate, heroes would have to find and catch each other. This way (as it is now) it's like fighting in a ring.

All else is personal attacks.

I didn't attack you. I've criticized your review because you kept it short and misleading.

In the mean time, if you want to argue your case any further, PM me.

I like it more like a "challenge". This way it's easier to track things not having to copy+paste in case I need to.

Anyways, you've made a step forward. Just to make it clear. It's not the fact that it was moved to the Substandard section (that's a stupid name by the way; standard should mean normal Warcraft stuff; simple is the better name from the two) that annoyed me but the lack of depth of your review. You need to make map creators understand what and why with arguments not questions and self-answering. You shouldn't expect them to realize themselves what needs to be done. Maybe they think their map is good or whatever. You have to prove to them it either is or not.

 

[Kino]

Of course I won't when you're not being explicit. See, the previous Map Reviewer gave advice unlike you. I'll give some examples:

I was under the impression that with 2k posts, several years and maps under your belt; you would know that this map is very, very basic and is far from finished.
> Hence I didn't feel a need to to go into minutia over what I felt was wrong, your posts prior to that tell me that even you yourself know why this map is lacking.
> Hence I centered my post on explaining why the map is moved the section it currently is in

If I guessed wrong; then my mistake.
Im willing to have the benefit of the doubt that you genuinely didn't understand why your map was moved (though I have strong hunch you always did, and this is a very well played trolling attempt. In-case of which, well played good sir

Ah, so you can write something properly. Yes, some heroes are just not for 1v1. It's the game's design, not mine. I doubt many heroes even in MOBAs/AoSs are fully 1v1 calibrated.

I didnt ask for 1v1 balance, asked for hero on hero combat balance.
> Long duration channeling ult's have very little use in a map where long army v army battles don't exist.
> Long haul support passives like Brilliance or Unholy Aura are useful in a melee match where there is downtime and there are no fast life/mana regen solutions. In an arena map, the you're not aiming for fights so long that such economy-centric passives are worthwhile.

And as a side note, AOS games have creep waves/tower siege thus the possibility for hero designs that are not directly hero combat oriented. Here, you don't have that luxury, the only combat is heroes in a ring fighting other heroes.

The terrain isn't much of a big deal. It's enough big already. Imagine a 1v1 on a bigger map. Mana would regenerate, heroes would have to find and catch each other. This way (as it is now) it's like fighting in a ring

The issue with the terrain is not that isn't big enough, its because this is the bare minimum terrain effort required for the map to work; both mechanically and aesthetically.
> There are some terrain objects to kite and use LOS around, but that is the expectation. I should not be commending a map over the fact that is not simply a flat empty space.
> The doodad placement is completely random; you have stairways in the open that lead to nothing. I don't expect custom models, but I do expect something that at least looks as good as maps in the default melee game.

You can be pedantic over my language use, interpreting it as you find convenient.
But in the end, my point is this.
> Content is very basic, if one were to take hero arena template and throw default heroes in; how different would that be to this? You can argue that this is slightly more developed; with player vote driven game modes, though that isn't saying a lot.
> Could you theoretically rectify all these issues, given enough updates? yes. However, the same applies to an empty map. Thus either the map in it's current state is feature complete (Ill say it again so you don't accidentally misinterpret my words; feature not balance), in the case of which; it is exactly where it belongs. Or, the map isn't finished and in that case, it belongs in Map Development, not submissions.

Last point Id like to make is that, there is nothing stopping you from polishing this map and re-submitting it.
Nobody will care than an earlier version was denied approval, you don't even have to contact anyone, simply submit the new and improved version into submission bin.

 

[Mr. Gameplay Knowledge]

Cool.

 

[Rufus]

I'm removing your rating @Boco_Exist.
Please elaborate what is so bad with this map in order to keep that rating.

 

[stan0033]

I think you need to put there at least AI. check my arenas for AI. Also, I think you have to make your arena a litte more eye pleasing - change the health bar style, or circle selection, change the UI.
Why player can only get bounty with transmute? There must be a bounty for killing heroes.
why there is no message when hero kills a hero?
Why there is no message that tells me what happens after my hero dies?
Why after my hero dies I can't be observer?
Why there is only one shop with items? There are no more default items?
The sunken tree wall is ugly. change it with canopy tree.
Add a little variety in the terrain like height of parts of the terrain, play around with sand, dirt, and rough dirt. Idk, they are right, it really looks plain, barren. I'm talking about the sand parts. Put more doodads like grass, flowers bushes idk
There must be a round limit. You can't fight forever.

 

[deepstrasz]

I think you need to put there at least AI.

Yeah, but this was made more like a testing ground at first. Besides, no one really likes it that much (including me). I'd rather invest time into something else.

change the health bar style, or circle selection, change the UI.

Nah, that's not keeping the WcIII feel.

Why player can only get bounty with transmute? There must be a bounty for killing heroes.

Nope. I needed use for that spell so I came up with it being used on summoned enemy units and those corpse spawning neutral units. Plus the shop which is designed for the Alchemist only.

why there is no message when hero kills a hero?
Why there is no message that tells me what happens after my hero dies?
Why after my hero dies I can't be observer?

Yeah... missed some things... I know.

Why there is only one shop with items? There are no more default items?

There are four shops, actually but they have the same items. I've only chosen those I thought would be useful and not too powerful.

The sunken tree wall is ugly. change it with canopy tree.

Now that's just taste.

Add a little variety in the terrain like height of parts of the terrain, play around with sand, dirt, and rough dirt. Idk, they are right, it really looks plain, barren. I'm talking about the sand parts. Put more doodads like grass, flowers bushes idk

Space is needed for manoeuvering.

There must be a round limit. You can't fight forever.

Of course you can. There is no escape or is there?

Thanks for the time but I'd really rather work on something else.

 

[deepstrasz]

Released open source.

 

[sentrywiz]

Hey not bad, you also made some substandard arena map!
You should polish it up some more
Will DL and play, hope it has bots.

 

[deepstrasz]

Hey not bad, you also made some substandard arena map!
You should polish it up some more
Will DL and play, hope it has bots.

It doesn't have AI.
No, thanks, I've had enough of this map.

 

[sentrywiz]

It doesn't have AI.
No, thanks, I've had enough of this map.

Oh.
Yea I get that.

 

[Cheshire]

Pretty sure that the moderation process of this map is @deepstrasz 's tragic superhero origin story that led him to becoming a map reviewer...